'I smiled as he was pumped full of bullets': Father watches as 'monster' who raped and murdered his three-year-old daughter is executed by MACHINE GUN in Yemen

First topic message reminder :

[*]Muhammad al-Maghrabi, 41, shot dead with AK rifle in square in Sanaa, Yemen 
[*]Sentence was passed after he raped and murdered three-year-old Rana Almatari
[*]Loner, who was Rana's neighbour, snatched her off the streets and strangled her
[*]Her dad watched the brutal execution and said he felt satisfied justice was done
[*]Afterwards the family went to the morgue and buried Rana in a nearby cemetery 
[*]WARNING GRAPHIC CONTENT 


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4756442/Father-watches-man-murdered-girl-executed-AK-47.html#ixzz4ohAhHlO8 
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Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:I love the way you can confidently speak for the whole of mankind.

I don’t “speak for mankind”, but I do speak about reality.  It's a FACT.

I didn't say that. Please quote the right person.

To add to my point on closure, which Quill thinks is only an expression.

Is not a divorce and then being able to remarry in love, not closure on that past relationship?

In other words, being able to move on, is being able to put closure on past events.

In other words, it is a state of mind.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I still don't agree, but hey ...

Spot on, when you think about it.  Your doubt is well founded, Raggs.

What is 'closure'?  It's a term borrowed from police practices: you close a file after you have completed the investigation and convicted someone in court.  Someone got the idea that this was a good metaphor with which to counsel to victims: just say thus and such on the stand and he'll be convicted and you'll get closure..

But it's just an expression, not an actual state of mind or being.  People began to take the expression, and treat it as real...like, some juice is running through their body and they really get some sort of high.

Let's face it, the only satisfaction you ever get out of capital punishment is revenge.  Anyone tells you otherwise is bullshitting you...and perhaps themselves, too.

I agree. Closure is not dependent on a certain event, it's something that happens in someone's mind when they're ready.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Spot on, when you think about it.  Your doubt is well founded, Raggs.

What is 'closure'?  It's a term borrowed from police practices: you close a file after you have completed the investigation and convicted someone in court.  Someone got the idea that this was a good metaphor with which to counsel to victims: just say thus and such on the stand and he'll be convicted and you'll get closure..

But it's just an expression, not an actual state of mind or being.  People began to take the expression, and treat it as real...like, some juice is running through their body and they really get some sort of high.

Let's face it, the only satisfaction you ever get out of capital punishment is revenge.  Anyone tells you otherwise is bullshitting you...and perhaps themselves, too.

I agree. Closure is not dependent on a certain event, it's something that happens in someone's mind when they're ready.

Well you disagree with him, as he claims its an expression, not a state of mind.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Syl wrote:

I love the way you can confidently speak for the whole of mankind.

To me its not revenge, revenge is getting even, making someone suffer, getting one over on that person...etc.

A few people have pointed out that many life term murderers would prefer to die anyway....so if it was revenge one was after one would never support the death penalty.

To me the death penalty has  three advantages.
ONE......I believe it does help the families left behind. If the guilty party and their crime is not constantly in the news, the family are not forever reliving what has happened.

TWO......The guilty one has commited a crime so dreadful he can never be readmitted into society. He is useless, a drain on finances, and probably going insane knowing this is his life forever anyway..

THREE...He (or she) obviously wont ever have the chance to hurt anyone again.

It doesn't necessarily help the families left behind. It might at first, but not in the long run. Executed people are also in the news a lot - usually because someone doesn't think they were guilty. It's also cowardly - there's no defence against State killing.

The people who do the executing are also committing a dreadful crime - they are killing someone in cold blood - it doesn't get much worse than that. There are people in death row who appeal time and time again. Why would they do that if they think their lives are over?

Those who do the executing have the chance to hurt someone - ie, at the next execution.

I believe it would help the families left behind.
Family members of the children who Hindley and Brady tortured and murdered often set up stalls round Tameside asking people to sign the petitions to bring back capital punishment.

The parents of little Sarah Payne have had to suffer constantly reading about her murderer, a man who had already served time for abusing and sexually molesting an 8 year old. Her dad died a broken man at the age of 45.
Only last week Sarahs murderer was in the news demanding a comfier bed in his cell fgs. A man who will one day be free possibly to put another family through the same torture.

The State is not committing a dreadful crime by carrying out capital punishment...they are serving society, making it safer than it was when the executed was alive..
You may as well say they are guilty of kidnapping if they incarcerate someone for life.

Syl wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

It doesn't necessarily help the families left behind. It might at first, but not in the long run. Executed people are also in the news a lot - usually because someone doesn't think they were guilty. It's also cowardly - there's no defence against State killing.

The people who do the executing are also committing a dreadful crime - they are killing someone in cold blood - it doesn't get much worse than that. There are people in death row who appeal time and time again. Why would they do that if they think their lives are over?

Those who do the executing have the chance to hurt someone - ie, at the next execution.

I believe it would help the families left behind.
Family members of the children who Hindley and Brady tortured and murdered often set up stalls round Tameside asking people to sign the petitions to bring back capital punishment.

The parents of little Sarah Payne have had to suffer constantly reading about her murderer, a man who had already served time for abusing and sexually molesting an 8 year old. Her dad died a broken man at the age of 45.
Only last week Sarahs murderer was in the news demanding a comfier bed in his cell fgs. A man who will one day be free possibly to put another family through the same torture.

The State is not committing a dreadful crime by carrying out capital punishment...they are serving society, making it safer than it was when the executed was alive..
You may as well say they are guilty of kidnapping if they incarcerate someone for life.

I've already addressed the state of mind of Winnie Johnson, who was kept going by the hope that they would tell her where Keith was buried. The other families don't understand what it would do to them if those two had been executed - it wouldn't have brought them peace and it would have made them collaborators in State murder - that is not serving society, it is carrying out and condoning cold-blooded killing. It makes them no better than the murderers.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Syl wrote:

I believe it would help the families left behind.
Family members of the children who Hindley and Brady tortured and murdered often set up stalls round Tameside asking people to sign the petitions to bring back capital punishment.

The parents of little Sarah Payne have had to suffer constantly reading about her murderer, a man who had already served time for abusing and sexually molesting an 8 year old. Her dad died a broken man at the age of 45.
Only last week Sarahs murderer was in the news demanding a comfier bed in his cell fgs. A man who will one day be free possibly to put another family through the same torture.

The State is not committing a dreadful crime by carrying out capital punishment...they are serving society, making it safer than it was when the executed was alive..
You may as well say they are guilty of kidnapping if they incarcerate someone for life.

I've already addressed the state of mind of Winnie Johnson, who was kept going by the hope that they would tell her where Keith was buried. The other families don't understand what it would do to them if those two had been executed - it wouldn't have brought them peace and it would have made them collaborators in State murder - that is not serving society, it is carrying out and condoning cold-blooded killing. It makes them no better than the murderers.

Yes, I already answered your point about Winnie...she died realising that she had lived with false hope for decades...she never had any sort of closure.
In fact they made her suffering a damn site harder by dangling false titbits of info around knowing damn well they would not or could not offer any help for her to find Keith.

Hindley and Brady had the power to do that till either they or she died first.

Syl wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I've already addressed the state of mind of Winnie Johnson, who was kept going by the hope that they would tell her where Keith was buried. The other families don't understand what it would do to them if those two had been executed - it wouldn't have brought them peace and it would have made them collaborators in State murder - that is not serving society, it is carrying out and condoning cold-blooded killing. It makes them no better than the murderers.

Yes, I already answered your point about Winnie...she died realising that she had lived with false hope for decades...she never had any sort of closure.
In fact they made her suffering a damn site harder by dangling false titbits of info around knowing damn well they would not or could not offer any help for her to find Keith.

Hindley and Brady had the power to do that till either they or she died first.

It wasn't a false hope, it was just an unfulfilled hope. At least the hope kept her going. She would have had no closure had they been executed because she wouldn't have had that hope that she would find Keith's body.

Really, all this stuff about closure for families is not the point. Capital punishment is murder, just as much as what Brady and Hindley did.

Syl wrote:To me its not revenge, revenge is getting even, making someone suffer, getting one over on that person...etc.

A few people have pointed out that many life term murderers would prefer to die anyway....so if it was revenge one was after one would never support the death penalty.

To me the death penalty has  three advantages.
ONE......I believe it does help the families left behind. If the guilty party and their crime is not constantly in the news, the family are not forever reliving what has happened.

So how does it help “the families left behind”?  Is it a chemical thing?  Like a stimulant?  Or perhaps a depressant…like alcohol?  

What empirical evidence do you have that they are helped?  That justification is just a bullshit rationalization...for revenge.

Syl wrote:TWO......The guilty one has commited a crime so dreadful he can never be readmitted into society. He is useless, a drain on finances, and probably going insane knowing this is his life forever anyway..

Why do you care?  Again, bullshit.  Thinking about him is a burden you don’t have to bear.  Why accept that liability?   Perhaps because you want to…could that be revenge?

Syl wrote:THREE...He (or she) obviously wont ever have the chance to hurt anyone again.

You pay taxes to haul away garbage…why do it yourself?  You are simply investing yourself in the process, and that's called revenge.

Quill, you keep quoting me instead of Syl. I've made it very clear that I'm against the death penalty, so how can you think I'm saying that stuff?

Syl wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

It doesn't necessarily help the families left behind. It might at first, but not in the long run. Executed people are also in the news a lot - usually because someone doesn't think they were guilty. It's also cowardly - there's no defence against State killing.

The people who do the executing are also committing a dreadful crime - they are killing someone in cold blood - it doesn't get much worse than that. There are people in death row who appeal time and time again. Why would they do that if they think their lives are over?

Those who do the executing have the chance to hurt someone - ie, at the next execution.

I believe it would help the families left behind.
Family members of the children who Hindley and Brady tortured and murdered often set up stalls round Tameside asking people to sign the petitions to bring back capital punishment.

The parents of little Sarah Payne have had to suffer constantly reading about her murderer, a man who had already served time for abusing and sexually molesting an 8 year old. Her dad died a broken man at the age of 45.
Only last week Sarahs murderer was in the news demanding a comfier bed in his cell fgs. A man who will one day be free possibly to put another family through the same torture.

The State is not committing a dreadful crime by carrying out capital punishment...they are serving society, making it safer than it was when the executed was alive..
You may as well say they are guilty of kidnapping if they incarcerate someone for life.

The reason I posted this is to see peoples reactions.

On one point Quill is right, that people think by hurting or ending someones life it will bring about relief, closure, satisfaction, revenge etc, but it never does. As hate a negative emotion is driving this in order that it can bring about some closure to the victims, or their families.

The reality is it never does, as that burning hate still persists and people react as seen here off negative emotions.

Let me give you an example of what real closure is.

Take Rais Bhuiyan, who was shot in the face and blinded in one eye by Mark Stroman after 9/11.
He forgave Mark and even tried to stop him being executed for his crimes.
That is having real closure, the ability to forgive those who have hurt you. As it enables people to move on.

Easier said than done, especially for those who have been raped or who have lost children etc, but the reality is and why the death penalty can never bring closure. Is that it only brings momentary satisfaction. It cannot bring about closure. As the negative hate is what has brought about the want and need for this Syl.

Again most would want those who have harmed them to suffer unimaginable pain, but achieves little. As it does not allow a person to really move on.

There is even cases of Holocaust victims forgiving those who have caused them to lose their entire families.

Hence why closure is a state of mind and not an expression. Where closure can only ever be brought about through forgiveness.

I may not be Christian, but one thing Jesus taught was showing the way forward for people to find closure.

Hence he was a great teacher

Closure is really acceptance, and executing someone won't influence that.

Raggamuffin wrote:Closure is really acceptance, and executing someone won't influence that.  

Well done Rags, I agree.

Raggamuffin wrote:Quill, you keep quoting me instead of Syl. I've made it very clear that I'm against the death penalty, so how can you think I'm saying that stuff?

Soz...corrected.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Quill, you keep quoting me instead of Syl. I've made it very clear that I'm against the death penalty, so how can you think I'm saying that stuff?

Soz...corrected.

Ta.

Raggamuffin wrote:Closure is really acceptance, and executing someone won't influence that.  

Precisely the point! Well said...

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Closure is really acceptance, and executing someone won't influence that.  

Precisely the point!  Well said...

You are now back tracking mate.

You said it was not a state of mind, when acceptance is.

You said it was an expression.

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Closure is really acceptance, and executing someone won't influence that.  

Precisely the point!  Well said...

Thank you Quill.

I cannot stop laughing.

Two people claiming to agree, when their views were opposite.

Thorin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Precisely the point!  Well said...

You are now back tracking mate.

You said it was not a state of mind, when acceptance is.

You said it was an expression.

Correction..."acceptance" is really a non-state-of-mind.  

Have you ever heard the old New York saying: fuggedaboutit?  It addresses that point exactly, and it ain't saying to get all worked up about it.  Put it out of your mind is a recommendation for a non-state-of-mind. That is true acceptance.

But there is a state-of-mind working in there somewhere.  It's revenge.  Reread the posts on this page and you'll find I wasn't denying a state-of-mind, but saying in reality it's all about revenge.

Original Quill wrote:

Thorin wrote:

You are now back tracking mate.

You said it was not a state of mind, when acceptance is.

You said it was an expression.

Correction..."acceptance" is really a non-state-of-mind.  

Have you ever heard the old New York saying: fuggedaboutit?  It addresses that point exactly, and it ain't saying to get all worked up about it.  Put it out of your mind is a recommendation for a non-state-of-mind.

But there is a state-of-mind working in there somewhere.  It's revenge.  Reread the posts on this page and you'll find I wasn't denying a state-of-mind, but saying in reality it's all about revenge.

Of course its a state of mind Quill.
If you accept someones apology and mean it, then you are able to move on. All negative thoughts are then disintegrated away. Hence a state of mind.

Take for example homosexuality. People either accept or they do not accept this. Some are influenced by beliefs, but its a state of mind. Its even more a state of mind, because there is those who once did not accept homosexuality, that now do.

You never read my original post did you?


Here you go



The reason I posted this is to see peoples reactions.

On one point Quill is right, that people think by hurting or ending someones life it will bring about relief, closure, satisfaction, revenge etc, but it never does. As hate a negative emotion is driving this in order that it can bring about some closure to the victims, or their families.

The reality is it never does, as that burning hate still persists and people react as seen here off negative emotions.

Let me give you an example of what real closure is.

Take Rais Bhuiyan, who was shot in the face and blinded in one eye by Mark Stroman after 9/11.
He forgave Mark and even tried to stop him being executed for his crimes.
That is having real closure, the ability to forgive those who have hurt you. As it enables people to move on.

Easier said than done, especially for those who have been raped or who have lost children etc, but the reality is and why the death penalty can never bring closure. Is that it only brings momentary satisfaction. It cannot bring about closure. As the negative hate is what has brought about the want and need for this Syl.

Again most would want those who have harmed them to suffer unimaginable pain, but achieves little. As it does not allow a person to really move on.

There is even cases of Holocaust victims forgiving those who have caused them to lose their entire families.

Hence why closure is a state of mind and not an expression. Where closure can only ever be brought about through forgiveness.

I may not be Christian, but one thing Jesus taught was showing the way forward for people to find closure.

Hence he was a great teacher

If you have a spot and keep picking it it will never heal.
If you constantly keep reading and hearing about the person who has murdered raped or done God knows what to a loved one you will constantly relive what happened....how can a person ever move on?

Its odd, but the OP showed a man being killed by the state...no one bothered about him, other than a couple of comments that would make it even worse for him....is that because he is in a different country perhaps?

Original Quill wrote:

Syl wrote:To me its not revenge, revenge is getting even, making someone suffer, getting one over on that person...etc.

A few people have pointed out that many life term murderers would prefer to die anyway....so if it was revenge one was after one would never support the death penalty.

To me the death penalty has  three advantages.
ONE......I believe it does help the families left behind. If the guilty party and their crime is not constantly in the news, the family are not forever reliving what has happened.

So how does it help “the families left behind”?  Is it a chemical thing?  Like a stimulant?  Or perhaps a depressant…like alcohol?  

What empirical evidence do you have that they are helped?  That justification is just a bullshit rationalization...for revenge.

Syl wrote:TWO......The guilty one has commited a crime so dreadful he can never be readmitted into society. He is useless, a drain on finances, and probably going insane knowing this is his life forever anyway..

Why do you care?  Again, bullshit.  Thinking about him is a burden you don’t have to bear.  Why accept that liability?   Perhaps because you want to…could that be revenge?

Syl wrote:THREE...He (or she) obviously wont ever have the chance to hurt anyone again.

You pay taxes to haul away garbage…why do it yourself?  You are simply investing yourself in the process, and that's called revenge.

No...bullshit is forever misunderstanding what someone is saying then quoting the wrong person,
Bullshit is agreeing with someone who has the opposite views to yourself .
Bulshit is feeling something yourself and insisting that's the way everyone feels.
Bullshit is confusing opinion with fact.

Why do I care? Doesn't everyone who has an ounce of empathy care when someone has lost a loved one in an incredibly evil and violent way?

Syl wrote:If you have a spot and keep picking it it will never heal.
If you constantly keep reading and hearing about the person who has murdered raped or done God knows what to a loved one you will constantly relive what happened....how can a person ever move on?

Its odd, but the OP showed a man being killed by the state...no one bothered about him, other than a couple of comments that would make it even worse for him....is that because he is in a different country perhaps?

Hence my point.
If you have an itch and constantly scratch it, then it gets worse.
The same with picking a spot.
You leave it alone, or seek medical help, to help heal this.
In other words you recognize the problem. As by picking or scratching you make the problem ten times worse.

Like i say, its very hard to do, but people only ever really move on when they forgive, which is a million times harder to do.

If we do not forgive, then it festers and plays on the mind, until it controls who you then become.

Hence why its very difficult for many victims to move on, as they are psychologically damaged and scarred.

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:If you have a spot and keep picking it it will never heal.
If you constantly keep reading and hearing about the person who has murdered raped or done God knows what to a loved one you will constantly relive what happened....how can a person ever move on?

Its odd, but the OP showed a man being killed by the state...no one bothered about him, other than a couple of comments that would make it even worse for him....is that because he is in a different country perhaps?

Hence my point.
If you have an itch and constantly scratch it, then it gets worse.
The same with picking a spot.
You leave it alone, or seek medical help, to help heal this.
In other words you recognize the problem. As by picking or scratching you make the problem ten times worse.

Like i say, its very hard to do, but people only ever really move on when they forgive, which is a million times harder to do.

If we do not forgive, then it festers and plays on the mind, until it controls who you then become.

Hence why its very difficult for many victims to move on, as they are psychologically damaged and scarred.

I think it would be very hard indeed to forgive someone who had tortured and murdered your child.

But you have to let go of hatred....I always felt Leslie Ann Downes mums life was ruined.. obviously by what happened to her little girl, but the fact that she openly said she hated with every fibre of her body the two who had caused this...and that never faded, right up to her death.

There is a middle ground ...you don't have to forgive to move on, but you do have to accept, and I firmly believe that NOT having constant reminders would help.

Syl wrote:

Thorin wrote:

Hence my point.
If you have an itch and constantly scratch it, then it gets worse.
The same with picking a spot.
You leave it alone, or seek medical help, to help heal this.
In other words you recognize the problem. As by picking or scratching you make the problem ten times worse.

Like i say, its very hard to do, but people only ever really move on when they forgive, which is a million times harder to do.

If we do not forgive, then it festers and plays on the mind, until it controls who you then become.

Hence why its very difficult for many victims to move on, as they are psychologically damaged and scarred.

I think it would be very hard indeed to forgive someone who had tortured and murdered your child.

But you have to let go of hatred....I always felt Leslie Ann Downes mums life was ruined.. obviously by what happened to her little girl, but the fact that she openly said she hated with every fibre of her body the two who had caused this...and that never faded, right up to her death.

There is a middle ground ...you don't have to forgive to move on, but you do have to accept, and I firmly believe that NOT having constant reminders would help.

Of course its extremely hard, but its the only way to really move on Syl.

Forgiving is a major part of accepting what has happened. As it allows a person to move on.

Think about where a person has been hurt.

They can sit and fester in self pity or try to better and move on with their life.

If someone has caused them harm, a major part in overcoming this is the ability to forgive. It takes away the main negative part away. Next then is being able to adapt your life to what has happened to you and hence why forgiveness is being able to accept what has happened.

We are all going to lose people close to us in life, some more horrific in how this happens than others.
In one way it shows how emotive as humans we can be that we care so much, but when we allow grieving to control our lives. Then we are then ruled by mainly negative emotions. People are not very good at dealing with death. It is extremely hard, but its about not allowing this grief to rule who you are.

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

I don’t “speak for mankind”, but I do speak about reality.  It's a FACT.

I said that to you not Rags.

I know. Raggs has already pointed that out if you'd bother reading.

Syl wrote:Its not fact btw its an opinion.

It's a proven hypothesis, no mere opinion. Everything else washes in peoples' (poor) excuses for capital punishment. Dispense with the nonsense, and what they are inevitably talking about is revenge.

Once again, I've just show it to you in your own argument.

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:

I think it would be very hard indeed to forgive someone who had tortured and murdered your child.

But you have to let go of hatred....I always felt Leslie Ann Downes mums life was ruined.. obviously by what happened to her little girl, but the fact that she openly said she hated with every fibre of her body the two who had caused this...and that never faded, right up to her death.

There is a middle ground ...you don't have to forgive to move on, but you do have to accept, and I firmly believe that NOT having constant reminders would help.

Of course its extremely hard, but its the only way to really move on Syl.

Forgiving is a major part of accepting what has happened. As it allows a person to move on.

Think about where a person has been hurt.

They can sit and fester in self pity or try to better and move on with their life.

If someone has caused them harm, a major part in overcoming this is the ability to forgive. It takes away the main negative part away. Next then is being able to adapt your life to what has happened to you and hence why forgiveness is being able to accept what has happened.

We are all going to lose people close to us in life, some more horrific in how this happens than others.
In one way it shows how emotive as humans we can be that we care so much, but when we allow grieving to control our lives. Then we are then ruled by mainly negative emotions. People are not very good at dealing with death. It is extremely hard, but its about not allowing this grief to rule who you are.

People handle, come to terms with than finally accept death in their own way obviously.

I know I could never forgive someone who had hurt one of my family in such a heinous way.....but I would not waste my energy on hating, they would become meaningless to me....and I would strive to  move forwards.
perhaps people who think punishing the perpetrator equals revenge think differently.
I don't see it like that.

I'd also ask what about the families of the perpetrator? It would be hard on them to have their relative executed, yes?

Raggamuffin wrote:I'd also ask what about the families of the perpetrator? It would be hard on them to have their relative executed, yes?

Yes, but surely it would be very much harder to realise that they had acted in such an evil way.

Syl wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Of course its extremely hard, but its the only way to really move on Syl.

Forgiving is a major part of accepting what has happened. As it allows a person to move on.

Think about where a person has been hurt.

They can sit and fester in self pity or try to better and move on with their life.

If someone has caused them harm, a major part in overcoming this is the ability to forgive. It takes away the main negative part away. Next then is being able to adapt your life to what has happened to you and hence why forgiveness is being able to accept what has happened.

We are all going to lose people close to us in life, some more horrific in how this happens than others.
In one way it shows how emotive as humans we can be that we care so much, but when we allow grieving to control our lives. Then we are then ruled by mainly negative emotions. People are not very good at dealing with death. It is extremely hard, but its about not allowing this grief to rule who you are.

People handle, come to terms with than finally accept death in their own way obviously.

I know I could never forgive someone who had hurt one of my family in such a heinous way.....but I would not waste my energy on hating, they would become meaningless to me....and I would  strive to  move forwards.
perhaps people who think punishing the perpetrator equals revenge think differently.
I don't see it like that.

Everyone is different Syl, hence why we are human.
You have a good philosophy on this and do not allow hate to cloud your judgement. I think even when angry, you would allow that anger to calm and reflect back on this. Thus not allowing that hate to fester. Its a good trait to have. 

Good and evil are just concepts we have, but in reality, negative emotions lead to evils that happen. Positive emotions rarely lead to evils happening. The only time positive emotions leads to evil, is when people are taught hateful acts are righteous and positive. 

A.K.A. some religious beliefs and extreme political ideologies.

For example, they have been brainwashed to believe its righteous to stone to death an adulterer and that this is a positive thing to do. Or murder a Jew, as to them they are inferior and see both the adulterer and Jew as negative. The only way to correct this negative to them, is to create a false positive. Based around a premise of what is taught as righteous. When its far removed from being righteous. Its abhorrent When in reality its the worst negative prejudice, discriminating hate.

Hence they have been brainwashed to believe a negative is a positive and a positive is a negative.

Syl wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:I'd also ask what about the families of the perpetrator? It would be hard on them to have their relative executed, yes?

Yes, but surely it would be very much  harder to realise that they had acted in such an evil way.

Possibly, but they're still losing their relative.

I would probably never accept someone being executed for killing a relative on the grounds that it would give me "closure".

Raggamuffin wrote:

Syl wrote:

Yes, but surely it would be very much  harder to realise that they had acted in such an evil way.

Possibly, but they're still losing their relative.

I would probably never accept someone being executed for killing a relative on the grounds that it would give me "closure".  

Well it wont happen anyway.
Even if capital punishment ever was brought back in this country the sentence would not be dependant on the victims families wishes.

Though it is a factor in some countries I believe.

Syl wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Of course its extremely hard, but its the only way to really move on Syl.

Forgiving is a major part of accepting what has happened. As it allows a person to move on.

Think about where a person has been hurt.

They can sit and fester in self pity or try to better and move on with their life.

If someone has caused them harm, a major part in overcoming this is the ability to forgive. It takes away the main negative part away. Next then is being able to adapt your life to what has happened to you and hence why forgiveness is being able to accept what has happened.

We are all going to lose people close to us in life, some more horrific in how this happens than others.
In one way it shows how emotive as humans we can be that we care so much, but when we allow grieving to control our lives. Then we are then ruled by mainly negative emotions. People are not very good at dealing with death. It is extremely hard, but its about not allowing this grief to rule who you are.

People handle, come to terms with than finally accept death in their own way obviously.

I know I could never forgive someone who had hurt one of my family in such a heinous way.....but I would not waste my energy on hating, they would become meaningless to me....and I would  strive to  move forwards.

This is a contradictory statement. You could never forgive means you are already "wast[ing] energy" on some sort of response. Better to just put it out of mind.

Syl wrote:perhaps people who think punishing the perpetrator equals revenge think differently.
I don't see it like that.

The point is, it's nothing but revenge. I don't belittle those feelings, but I think it's pretentious to try to elevate them with other excuses.

There are a lot of people who engage in feelings of revenge, but they confuse their venting with the object of their energy. What one does inside one's head has no bearing outside. The most poignant thing said, was when Raggs noted that nothing is accomplished in so-called closure.

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:

People handle, come to terms with than finally accept death in their own way obviously.

I know I could never forgive someone who had hurt one of my family in such a heinous way.....but I would not waste my energy on hating, they would become meaningless to me....and I would  strive to  move forwards.
perhaps people who think punishing the perpetrator equals revenge think differently.
I don't see it like that.

Everyone is different Syl, hence why we are human.
You have a good philosophy on this and do not allow hate to cloud your judgement. I think even when angry, you would allow that anger to calm and reflect back on this. Thus not allowing that hate to fester. Its a good trait to have. 

Good and evil are just concepts we have, but in reality, negative emotions lead to evils that happen. Positive emotions rarely lead to evils happening. The only time positive emotions leads to evil, is when people are taught hateful acts are righteous and positive. 

A.K.A. some religious beliefs and extreme political ideologies.

For example, they have been brainwashed to believe its righteous to stone to death an adulterer and that this is a positive thing to do. Or murder a Jew, as to them they are inferior and see both the adulterer and Jew as negative. The only way to correct this negative to them, is to create a false positive. Based around a premise of what is taught as righteous. When its far removed from being righteous. Its abhorrent When in reality its the worst negative prejudice, discriminating hate.

Hence they have been brainwashed to believe a negative is a positive and a positive is a negative.

The thread where the local council of men in Pakistan ordered a young girl to be raped highlighted that way of thinking.

Negative thinking is destructive ...I think some people are more prone to it than others....a 'trait' if you like.
We can all try different methods to help ourselves though.

I am always surprised that even in normal life so many people can hold a grudge if they have been mistreated.
I don't go along with the theory that I will forgive but I wont forget.
Forgetting is a lot more beneficial than forgiving imo....forget that bastard and don't give them another minute of your time.

Syl wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Everyone is different Syl, hence why we are human.
You have a good philosophy on this and do not allow hate to cloud your judgement. I think even when angry, you would allow that anger to calm and reflect back on this. Thus not allowing that hate to fester. Its a good trait to have. 

Good and evil are just concepts we have, but in reality, negative emotions lead to evils that happen. Positive emotions rarely lead to evils happening. The only time positive emotions leads to evil, is when people are taught hateful acts are righteous and positive. 

A.K.A. some religious beliefs and extreme political ideologies.

For example, they have been brainwashed to believe its righteous to stone to death an adulterer and that this is a positive thing to do. Or murder a Jew, as to them they are inferior and see both the adulterer and Jew as negative. The only way to correct this negative to them, is to create a false positive. Based around a premise of what is taught as righteous. When its far removed from being righteous. Its abhorrent When in reality its the worst negative prejudice, discriminating hate.

Hence they have been brainwashed to believe a negative is a positive and a positive is a negative.

The thread where the local council of men in Pakistan ordered a young girl to be raped highlighted that way of thinking.

Negative thinking is destructive ...I think some people are more prone to it than others....a 'trait' if you like.
We can all try different methods to help ourselves though.

I am always surprised that even in normal life so many people can hold a grudge if they have been mistreated.
I don't go along with the theory that I will forgive but I wont forget.
Forgetting is a lot more beneficial than forgiving imo....forget that bastard and don't give them another minute of your time.

Then you have not truly but closure on that or truly forgiven.
Not speaking of you here, but when people claim to forgive a wrong and not forget this, then they harbour resentment. They have not then truly forgiven to me Syl. 

Grudges are the worst lol, it creates the worst barrier between people.

I've always wondered about forgiving vs. forgetting.

Offhand, I feel that forgetting is more significant.  I mean, we say forgive and forget, but we also say:

Fool me once, shame on you,
Fool me twice, shame on me.

That's a tacit statement that forgetting is more significant.

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:

The thread where the local council of men in Pakistan ordered a young girl to be raped highlighted that way of thinking.

Negative thinking is destructive ...I think some people are more prone to it than others....a 'trait' if you like.
We can all try different methods to help ourselves though.

I am always surprised that even in normal life so many people can hold a grudge if they have been mistreated.
I don't go along with the theory that I will forgive but I wont forget.
Forgetting is a lot more beneficial than forgiving imo....forget that bastard and don't give them another minute of your time.

Then you have not truly but closure on that or truly forgiven.
Not speaking of you here, but when people claim to forgive a wrong and not forget this, then they harbour resentment. They have not then truly forgiven to me Syl. 

Grudges are the worst lol, it creates the worst barrier between people.

I suppose we can only speak for ourselves and the way we feel, but I know for a fact that I can move on and not give someone a second thought if they have really hurt me or mine.
Does that mean I have forgiven?...maybe without even thinking I have, I have certainly forgotten.

Syl wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Then you have not truly but closure on that or truly forgiven.
Not speaking of you here, but when people claim to forgive a wrong and not forget this, then they harbour resentment. They have not then truly forgiven to me Syl. 

Grudges are the worst lol, it creates the worst barrier between people.

I suppose we can only speak for ourselves and the way we feel, but I know for a fact that I can move on and not give someone a second thought if they have really hurt me or mine.


Does that mean I have forgiven?...maybe without even thinking I have, I have certainly forgotten.

To me you have never really moved on if you cannot truly forgive and then resolve.
Its how and why many relationships fall apart.
If they never truly forgive, then those original problems, festers and turns into new problems, that were never problems before in that relationship.

Original Quill wrote:I've always wondered about forgiving vs. forgetting.

Offhand, I feel that forgetting is more significant.  I mean, we say forgive and forget, but we also say:

Fool me once, shame on you,
Fool me twice, shame on me.

That's a tacit statement that forgetting is more significant.

Me too.
Perhaps it would help the perpetrator to know they have been forgiven....but in reality, who cares about that if they no longer figure in your life?

I don't agree with the 'fool me once etc'.
I don't think anyone need feel shame if they give someone more than one chance in life....I just means they are big hearted and have trust.

Original Quill wrote:I've always wondered about forgiving vs. forgetting.

Offhand, I feel that forgetting is more significant.  I mean, we say forgive and forget, but we also say:

Fool me once, shame on you,
Fool me twice, shame on me.

That's a tacit statement that forgetting is more significant.

But then have you truly forgotten if you then have not truly forgiven?

Case in point. When people never truly forgive, generally means, they have never truly forgotten that wrong and cannot move on.

New problems are created from this one single wrong that has happened, because its not been truly forgiven.

Its why many relationships fall apart

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:
I suppose we can only speak for ourselves and the way we feel, but I know for a fact that I can move on and not give someone a second thought if they have really hurt me or mine.


Does that mean I have forgiven?...maybe without even thinking I have, I have certainly forgotten.

To me you have never really moved on if you cannot truly forgive and then resolve.
Its how and why many relationships fall apart.
I they never truly forgive, that original problems, festers and turns into new problems, that were never problems before in that relationship.

If you can forget and move on without giving that person anymore of your time....obviously any relationship or friendship would be over by then.
In any relationship holding a grudge is a death knell.

Syl wrote:

Thorin wrote:



To me you have never really moved on if you cannot truly forgive and then resolve.
Its how and why many relationships fall apart.
I they never truly forgive, that original problems, festers and turns into new problems, that were never problems before in that relationship.

If you can forget and move on without giving that person anymore of your time....obviously any relationship or friendship would be over by then.
In any relationship holding a grudge is a death knell.

But many people do hold a grudge as they have never truly forgiven Syl.
It festers until its out of control.

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:


If you can forget and move on without giving that person anymore of your time....obviously any relationship or friendship would be over by then.
In any relationship holding a grudge is a death knell.

But many people do hold a grudge as they have never truly forgiven Syl.
It festers until its out of control.

Yes its self destructive.....maybe more people could do with being ruthless and just cutting ties and moving on when any relationship is soured by hanging on to grudges.

Syl wrote:

Original Quill wrote:I've always wondered about forgiving vs. forgetting.

Offhand, I feel that forgetting is more significant.  I mean, we say forgive and forget, but we also say:

Fool me once, shame on you,
Fool me twice, shame on me.

That's a tacit statement that forgetting is more significant.

Me too.
Perhaps it would help the perpetrator to know they have been forgiven....but in reality, who cares about that if they no longer figure in your life?

I don't agree with the 'fool me once etc'.
I don't think anyone need feel shame if they give someone more than one chance in life....I just means they are big hearted and have trust.

I think it's not a past description (feeling shame), so much as it is a prospective bit of advice. It shows how much more important it is to not forget a past offense.