Tory party stoops to new low.

First topic message reminder :

Absolute fucking bastards.
Not only denying heroic policemen who challenge machette weilding terrorists, fearless firefighters running into infernos to save  lives or nurses and paramedics who work beyond the call of duty a decent psy risr,but they fucking CHEER at the news .
But they are bloody quick enough to snatch their own 11% rise.
They are beyond contempt, lower than pondlife.
How the fuck do they sleep at night? Have they no conscience? 
http://evolvepolitics.com/tory-mps-cheer-blocking-labour-amendment-give-fair-pay-heroic-emergency-services/


I have no doubt the usual vile rw ers will come crawling out from under their rocks to issue a defence of the undefendable.

Thorin wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:HA is a word now?

What does it mean?

ha

used to express surprise, suspicion, triumph, etc.

As in: Ha, I'll be surprised if you accept my challenge above.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Thorin wrote:


I work at a hospital Andy and it says it all that you ignore the facts

I see you also make it personal, because as seen you are nothing more than a childish brat, who because he does not get his ways, spouts his hateful crap all over this forum

Now either take on the points or run along

Nursing has become devalued, especially since 2010.

They've had to work a lot harder, while their pay has stagnated with inflation.

If we don't value them, then we have the situation we have now. With nurses either leaving or graduates who'd rather work in Tesco for the same money. And the ones who remain, are over stressed due to a shortage of staff and extra duties.

Then you had Tories who stopped nurses coming in from outside the EU, which has led to understaffing. None of this isn't exactly motivational.

Hope you're not in NHS management.

One would think that going into the nursing profession was done primarily because one wanted to have a job that involved healing and caring and compassion, rather than just money.    If money is what solely motivates you in nursing or even being a doctor, then I think you're in the wrong profession so perhaps a job in Aldi is more suited to them, as Aldi pay a darn sight more than Tesco.

Nurses are on something between £21K and £28K, not exactly the breadline.  There are millions of people in the UK who will never earn that, and have to scrape by on a minimum wage.  And before anyone says, 'Well, nurses work hard for their qualification, blah blah'.   All I can say to that is....aren't they the lucky ones.   Again, there are millions who have no hope of ever attaining that.

HoratioTarr wrote:

nicko wrote:Gave you a green for that Didge,     have been in and out of Hospitals a lot of times in the last  years.   I could add a few more complaints,  Nurses gathered around the station at 2am in the morning gossiping about their boyfriends and laughing loudly.   Nurses ignoring people pressing their buzzers desperate to go to the toilet and others clumping along the ward at night with their shoes waking everyone up ! funny how people treat them [and Doctors] as gods,  they are not!  they are people doing their jobs, and they are not badly paid as they would have you believe.

This happened to my brother.   He has a badly damaged back and every so often ends up in hospital, and one time nobody fed or watered him for 24 hours.  My other bro had to go to Kentucky to get him some food and drink.   That's no exaggeration.   Also, he kept ringing for pain relief and the nurses ignored him, but he could hear them discussing their sex lives at the nurses station.  There was this old guy on the ward smothered in his own shit, wandering around and nobody came.   I hit the fucking roof when I found out.  I sent a formal complaint to the hospital but I doubt anything got done.   There are good nurses, of course, but many are lazy bastards and I've seen that in action.

This is my point. Now some nurses are very good, but many are there to solely observe and monitor patients. Mainly the later through equipment. Many do admin work which takes up time and there is now health care assistants also, but much of it is a vast waste of resources. The problem is when people see more interest in money than the profession they took on and think certain work is beneath them. They have lost the main reason why many went into the profession in the first place.

I mean take for example. If a patient needs to be moved from say their ward to Ultrasound. They will call the help desk and place a call to a central team who take calls and log them. This information is then fed to the site dispatcher. Who if porters are available, they will come to move this patient for their ultrasound. Just think of the costs and time delays alone here on such a system. When it would be far quicker and cost effective for either some of the nurses and health care assistance to do this. Now multiple this by a factor of 500 beds within the hospital. Then look at the contract cost alone for this company that runs porters, cleaners etc, which runs into the hundred millions. Its an absolute shocking waste of money. When that money would be better spent on health care professionals to carry out these tasks and that they are not then delayed

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Thorin wrote:


So again you cannot produce any figures

You keep making bold claims, with nothing to back them up

So show me the maths with figures to back up your claims or its nothing more than your imagination

Seriously dude, I don't think you quite understand what I'm saying.

So if you want some real maths, tell me exactly what you propose country wide and we will compare that cost to increasing wages and recruitment?

In case you missed it or are a bit dim, I can't cost your shopping list without knowing details.

I just thought any numpty would realise you would have to spend billions on capital expenditure, rather than 10's of millions.

So challenge excepted. Detail your proposal below....

So yet again no figures or a solution to bed locking, which denies beds to a couple of million patients each year.

All you can muster is feeble insults instead

As to details, I have already offered quite a few solutions in posts previously

Thorin wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Nursing has become devalued, especially since 2010.

They've had to work a lot harder, while their pay has stagnated with inflation.

If we don't value them, then we have the situation we have now. With nurses either leaving or graduates who'd rather work in Tesco for the same money. And the ones who remain, are over stressed due to a shortage of staff and extra duties.

Then you had Tories who stopped nurses coming in from outside the EU, which has led to understaffing. None of this isn't exactly motivational.

Hope you're not in NHS management.

Well maybe we need to change how we run hospitals because they are not value for money Zack

I agree on the shortage issue, but then there should be a clause that no nurse should be able to leave for jobs abroad, in the contract they sign when training in hospitals. For at least 10 years. As I say the way money is spent within hospitals is shambolic.

So again you want to pay Nurse who are nothing more that over glorified carers these days, and even then in that department they lack a duty of care for the patients. You find better duty of care from the health care assistants.

You then end on your usual immaturity, but this is coming from someone who bypassed the normal procedure of applying and being interviewed for a job and had this given to them through the family, only then for you to fuck it all up. So its doubtul you could ever advise anyone on how something should be run. Only on screwing it up .Now if you want to continue getting personal, I am more than happy to accommodate you on this

It's true that. They used to be called auxiliaries, and I had more compassion and care from them when I went into hospital then I ever did from a doctor or nurse.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Well maybe we need to change how we run hospitals because they are not value for money Zack

I agree on the shortage issue, but then there should be a clause that no nurse should be able to leave for jobs abroad, in the contract they sign when training in hospitals. For at least 10 years. As I say the way money is spent within hospitals is shambolic.

So again you want to pay Nurse who are nothing more that over glorified carers these days, and even then in that department they lack a duty of care for the patients. You find better duty of care from the health care assistants.

You then end on your usual immaturity, but this is coming from someone who bypassed the normal procedure of applying and being interviewed for a job and had this given to them through the family, only then for you to fuck it all up. So its doubtul you could ever advise anyone on how something should be run. Only on screwing it up .Now if you want to continue getting personal, I am more than happy to accommodate you on this

It's true that.  They used to be called auxiliaries, and I had more compassion and care from them when I went into hospital then I ever did from a doctor or nurse.

Its very true Horatio. I seem to think many Nurses have come to see their job vocation as a chore and not as a means to help people. One of the technicians I know, had his dad in with terminal cancer and they kept making him get up and walk around in his frail condition, which led to two falls. The later causing a broken hip. The fact that none of them were assisting him or watching him led to both falls. A real overhaul of the NHS needs to be done. I mean how they pay for taxis from London to Kent for cover nurses and then accommodation, shows their inability to cost and schedule for enough extra staff for sickness and holidays. Its diabolical.

Green for that H/T, THEY ARE NOT ALL ANGELS !!

I have a slight issue with consultants. I've never seen the same one twice, and they have to read all the notes before we can discuss anything. By the time they've done that, the appointment is nearly over with no time for questions.

I suppose we all speak from our own experiences.
Mine, for myself and my mum, who was in hospital for 2 months, were good experiences.
I have found the vast majority of nurses to be as caring and compassionate as they can be given that they are always trying to do 4 things at once.

Thorin wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

It's true that.  They used to be called auxiliaries, and I had more compassion and care from them when I went into hospital then I ever did from a doctor or nurse.

Its very true Horatio. I seem to think many Nurses have come to see their job vocation as a chore and not as a means to help people. One of the technicians I know, had his dad in with terminal cancer and they kept making him get up and walk around in his frail condition, which led to two falls. The later causing a broken hip. The fact that none of them were assisting him or watching him led to both falls. A real overhaul of the NHS needs to be done. I mean how they pay for taxis from London to Kent for cover nurses and then accommodation, shows their inability to cost and schedule for enough extra staff for sickness and holidays. Its diabolical.

I'm not sure where it's all gone so horrible wrong, and I suspect it's from several areas, from a lack of real dedication to healing from financial cuts and poor management. I get sick of reading about poor kids who die through incompetence or old people who die through lack of care. I have met some lovely nurses, but equally I've also met some arrogant horrors. At the end of the day, I don't care how busy you think you are, human beings need to be looked after and shown compassion.

Syl wrote:I suppose we all speak from our own experiences.
Mine, for myself and my mum, who was in hospital for 2 months, were good experiences.
I have found the vast majority of nurses to be as caring and compassionate as they can be given that they are always trying to do 4 things at once.

I suspect it depends on the hospital. Some hospitals are notoriously bad. Which tells me that it's rotten from the top down.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Thorin wrote:

Its very true Horatio. I seem to think many Nurses have come to see their job vocation as a chore and not as a means to help people. One of the technicians I know, had his dad in with terminal cancer and they kept making him get up and walk around in his frail condition, which led to two falls. The later causing a broken hip. The fact that none of them were assisting him or watching him led to both falls. A real overhaul of the NHS needs to be done. I mean how they pay for taxis from London to Kent for cover nurses and then accommodation, shows their inability to cost and schedule for enough extra staff for sickness and holidays. Its diabolical.

I'm not sure where it's all gone so horrible wrong, and I suspect it's from several areas, from a lack of real dedication to healing from financial cuts and poor management.    I get sick of reading about poor kids who die through incompetence  or old people who die through lack of care.   I have met some lovely nurses, but equally I've also met some arrogant horrors.    At the end of the day, I don't care how busy you think you are, human beings need to be looked after and shown compassion.

That being the most important part they should understand.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Syl wrote:I suppose we all speak from our own experiences.
Mine, for myself and my mum, who was in hospital for 2 months, were good experiences.
I have found the vast majority of nurses to be as caring and compassionate as they can be given that they are always trying to do 4 things at once.

I suspect it depends on the hospital.   Some hospitals are notoriously bad.   Which tells me that it's rotten from the top down.

Not always...my local hospital has not done well in recent charts, yet the care I have received there from nurses has been great.

The main Manchester hospital, which now sends lots of patients up to Trafford for surgery, has a better rep, yet when I had a full knee replacement there the nursing care was efficient, but totally detached.
I was awake throughout the surgery and not ONE person spoke to me in 2 hours, even though I could hear sawing and smell burning, I had no one looking after me.

The other hospital when I had surgery, a nurse held my hand and laughed and joked throughout.

Thorin wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Seriously dude, I don't think you quite understand what I'm saying.

So if you want some real maths, tell me exactly what you propose country wide and we will compare that cost to increasing wages and recruitment?

In case you missed it or are a bit dim, I can't cost your shopping list without knowing details.

I just thought any numpty would realise you would have to spend billions on capital expenditure, rather than 10's of millions.

So challenge excepted. Detail your proposal below....

So yet again no figures or a solution to bed locking, which denies beds to a couple of million patients each year.

All you can muster is feeble insults instead

As to details, I have already offered quite a few solutions in posts previously

Like I said, I thought you'd be a coward again and chicken out of your own challenge.

You've been cucked 2 times in one day. HA HA!

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Thorin wrote:

So yet again no figures or a solution to bed locking, which denies beds to a couple of million patients each year.

All you can muster is feeble insults instead

As to details, I have already offered quite a few solutions in posts previously

Like I said, I thought you'd be a coward again and chicken out of your own challenge.

You've been cucked 2 times in one day. HA HA!

Wow, so again you duck out of providing figures with evidence and ignore points I have raised to better the system.

Is it time for your bedtime story?

Thorin wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Like I said, I thought you'd be a coward again and chicken out of your own challenge.

You've been cucked 2 times in one day. HA HA!

Wow, so again you duck out of providing figures with evidence and ignore points I have raised to better the system.

Is it time for your bedtime story?

You have zero idea and don't know the difference between capital and operational expenditure.

Debating you would be like taking advantage of the frail.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Thorin wrote:

Wow, so again you duck out of providing figures with evidence and ignore points I have raised to better the system.

Is it time for your bedtime story?

You have zero idea and don't know the difference between capital and operational expenditure.

Debating you would be like taking advantage of the frail.

So more ducking out of providing figures

Syl wrote:I suppose we all speak from our own experiences.
Mine, for myself and my mum, who was in hospital for 2 months, were good experiences.
I have found the vast majority of nurses to be as caring and compassionate as they can be given that they are always trying to do 4 things at once.

Me too, Syl.

I will forever be in debt to the brilliant consultant oncology surgeon who gave me a few more precious months with my late wife through his skill and dedication, and also the nurses who cared for her during that time.

Not that it is of any great relevance, I suppose, but the guy with the scalpel that I respect and revere so much was a Muslim...and that is why I tend to react violently when certain assholes try pin their "racist" tag on me.

Thorin wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

You have zero idea and don't know the difference between capital and operational expenditure.

Debating you would be like taking advantage of the frail.

So more ducking out of providing figures

Lol! You haven't given me your shopping list of cap ex. It's your challenge, so you set the parameters. I bet it won't be anywhere near as costly as increasing wages and recruitmemt.

For some reason (trying not to call you stupid), you don't get that.

Let's also take your other suggestion: staff should be required to not leave for a few years, to repay their investment in training.

What does employment law say about maximum notice periods?

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Thorin wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

You have zero idea and don't know the difference between capital and operational expenditure.

Debating you would be like taking advantage of the frail.

So more ducking out of providing figures

Lol! You haven't given me your shopping list of cap ex. It's your challenge, so you set the parameters. I bet it won't  be anywhere near as costly as increasing wages and recruitmemt.

For some reason (trying not to call you stupid), you don't get that.

Let's also take your other suggestion: staff should be required to not leave for a few years, to repay their investment in training.

What does employment law say about maximum notice periods?

thats irrelevant zack...there is plenty of precedent for that kind of "binding".... either you stay your term agreed OR you pay back a proportion of your training costs

Lord Foul wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Thorin wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

You have zero idea and don't know the difference between capital and operational expenditure.

Debating you would be like taking advantage of the frail.

So more ducking out of providing figures

Lol! You haven't given me your shopping list of cap ex. It's your challenge, so you set the parameters. I bet it won't  be anywhere near as costly as increasing wages and recruitmemt.

For some reason (trying not to call you stupid), you don't get that.

Let's also take your other suggestion: staff should be required to not leave for a few years, to repay their investment in training.

What does employment law say about maximum notice periods?

thats irrelevant zack...there is plenty of precedent for that kind of "binding".... either you stay your term agreed OR you pay back a proportion of your training costs

um... I don't think so
pretty sure all our nations have outlawed indentured slavery which is what you just outlined

wrong veya....

what makes it LEGAL...is the part that says "or pay back a proportion of your training costs....."

Lord Foul wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Lol! You haven't given me your shopping list of cap ex. It's your challenge, so you set the parameters. I bet it won't  be anywhere near as costly as increasing wages and recruitmemt.

For some reason (trying not to call you stupid), you don't get that.

Let's also take your other suggestion: staff should be required to not leave for a few years, to repay their investment in training.

What does employment law say about maximum notice periods?

thats irrelevant zack...there is plenty of precedent for that kind of "binding".... either you stay your term agreed OR you pay back a proportion of your training costs

Not exactly irrelevant. If the contract is not drafted correctly, paying back your training costs can be construed as a penalty.

I was asking how one would enforce this, lawfully.

Still waiting for these numbers zack, based off your claim that it would be costly?

Anytime would be good

Thanks

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Lol! You haven't given me your shopping list of cap ex. It's your challenge, so you set the parameters. I bet it won't  be anywhere near as costly as increasing wages and recruitmemt.

For some reason (trying not to call you stupid), you don't get that.

Let's also take your other suggestion: staff should be required to not leave for a few years, to repay their investment in training.

What does employment law say about maximum notice periods?

thats irrelevant zack...there is plenty of precedent for that kind of "binding".... either you stay your term agreed OR you pay back a proportion of your training costs

Not exactly irrelevant. If the contract is not drafted correctly, paying back your training costs can be construed as a penalty.

I was asking how one would enforce this, lawfully.

dunno...ask bus company bosses and HGV company bosses...its common practice in those industries

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Syl wrote:I suppose we all speak from our own experiences.
Mine, for myself and my mum, who was in hospital for 2 months, were good experiences.
I have found the vast majority of nurses to be as caring and compassionate as they can be given that they are always trying to do 4 things at once.

Me too, Syl.

I will forever be in debt to the brilliant consultant oncology surgeon who gave me a few more precious months with my late wife through his skill and dedication, and also  the nurses who cared for her during that time.

Not that it is of any great relevance, I suppose, but the guy with the scalpel that I respect and revere so much was a Muslim...and that is why I tend to react violently when certain assholes try pin their "racist" tag on me.

The word racist is often thrown about on a par with fat, old, ugly, stupid....all meaningless really.

Without Asian and African nurses and doctors my mums care would not have been half as good, the vast majority were kind and caring.
I have no idea what religion they were...it simply doesn't matter, the only place it seems to take precedence is on forums.

Lord Foul wrote:wrong veya....

what makes it LEGAL...is the part that says "or pay back a proportion of your training costs....."

It works a bit differently in Oz,  and similarly over in the USA...

In both countries, nursing and teaching students already pay back a proportion of their tertiary education fees, same as other uni' students (here in Australia, the repayments are referred to as the "Higher Education Contribution Scheme"
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tertiary_education_fees_in_Australia   ).

To help poorer teaching and nursing students out, they can opt for scholarships that pay out their debts, and in return they opt to work in remote, rural or under-manned regions for five years --  if they leave that posting within the five years, they are required to re-pay a proportional amount of that scholarship.

(Australia's federal guv'ment is changing their repayment rules for new HECS fees from this year, so these conditions may be different for those nursing and teaching students starting their studies next year..).

Lord Foul wrote:wrong veya....

what makes it LEGAL...is the part that says "or pay back a proportion of your training costs....."

Still illegal here under the indentured slavery laws
Maybe the Uk is just less civilized than i thought

the loop hole here is that they can charge you for a training course and then reimburse you once you have completed some service.
or as Wolf said there are scholarships