Sex dolls sold in the image of children as young as four years old..

First topic message reminder :

How depraved can people be? I didn't even know items like this were made and sold.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4633322/Man-smuggled-paedophile-sex-doll-jailed.html




"A nuclear energy expert was behind bars in disgrace on Friday after he was caught smuggling a child-like 'paedophile' sex doll into the UK in the first case of its kind in Britain.
Father-of-one Andrew Dobson, 49, from Cheshire, used eBay to buy the £150 silicon doll - which resembled a girl as young as four - from a sex toy firm based in Hong Kong.
The sick item came with a negligee, face mask, blindfold, gloves and an even a 'cavity warmer' to give it a more 'life-like feel.'
But the package was intercepted by Border Force officials as it arrived at East Midlands Airport in Leicestershire.
Police later raided Dobson's £300,000 property in the village of Wistaston near Crewe, Cheshire and found 26 pornographic images and videos on his computer of children being abused.
One 12 minute clip showed a girl of six being raped by a man wearing a clown mask. He later admitted buying the child-like doll to use for sex.
At Chester Crown Court, Dobson, who works as a consultant on nuclear propulsion admitted importation of an obscene item and further charges of making and possessing indecent images and was jailed for two years and eight months.
Judge Simon Berkson told him: 'I had the doll shown to me and it is disgusting to think that this type of item exists and can be bought and imported all over the world."

Thorin wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

He's always being nasty and personal on here.    It's a nice change when he doesn't, and decides to post pleasantly.  But he was particularly horrible to me when I joined here and I've lost count of the times he's called me a homophobic racist.   And Syl doesn't stir.   She speaks her mind and doesn't take sides.   I've known her a long time, and she's nothing but level headed and fair.   But she doesn't take shit and neither does Ragga.   And neither to do I.  If certain 'men' on here find that hard to deal with that's their problem.

She does stir and I have seen her do it many times. I was not involved in her discussion with Quill this evening and she deliberately made a dig about me. That is stirring and she often constantly slags off wolf also. So she is as bad when she does. She often takes sides and have seen her do so. So if she does not like him doing what he does, then that does make it right when she does. Wolf is way more intelligent than her also.  I have no problem what she does, but I will expose her hypocrisy and the fact she can be quite nasty herself

People do dig at each other on here. That's par for the course. If you can't take it, don't give it. Not so long ago you were singing her praises on here. You take sides too. We all do from time to time.

Original Quill wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

What?   You have to wait until he progresses from doll to real child before anyone puts a stop to it?   The problem with porn, particularly extreme stuff, is that eventually, like with violence and sadism, these pervs get immured and jaded over time and then need more and more stimulation by whatever means.    I don't think most normal people find it acceptable that men fuck dolls that look like babies whether 'statistics' show it's harmless or not.   It's wrong.   It's unnatural.  It's damaging.

Let's be honest and say where you are really coming from, HT.  The problem with porn is that it is an illness, and all you RW'ers can see is the cost of treatment.  Just as with blacks, and perhaps homosexuals, you would rather not deal with it...you just want them to go away, die or be used to make soyient green.

So, you institutionalize the problem.  Put everyone in prison in far off places, so we won't have to think about it.  But...then, inevitably, we hear someone like tommy (wasn't it tommy?) who cries about the high cost of incarceration.  It's unfair we should have to pay...  Wasn't it the Nazis who agreed it was better to kill everyone, but then they got into a debate about the high cost of bullets?

If institutionalization is the answer for all problems, why not politicize it?  We did it with the Japanese in 1942.  Conservatives and Republicans cause most of the misery in the world, so let's put all of them in...um, let's call them 'work camps' because they are always saying hard work and dedication got me where I am today...  

I really wonder about you sometimes.

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:

And please don't go down the Thor route of insulting just because you have tied yourself up in knots...or you will be on ignore as well.
Thanks.  

 
Stirring again, you just cannot help yourself can you?

I am beginning to see what Wolf means now about you

Stick to the points and stop deliberately stirring

By the way its not abuse when they are factual

You're now stirring by saying that about Wolf. You said that to wind Syl up.

So what Quill is saying is that it's an illness, or a condition - like other mental conditions. However, if that condition results in children being harmed, they have to be put first. I'm all for trying to treat paedophilia, but it's a complex issue.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Thorin wrote:

She does stir and I have seen her do it many times. I was not involved in her discussion with Quill this evening and she deliberately made a dig about me. That is stirring and she often constantly slags off wolf also. So she is as bad when she does. She often takes sides and have seen her do so. So if she does not like him doing what he does, then that does make it right when she does. Wolf is way more intelligent than her also.  I have no problem what she does, but I will expose her hypocrisy and the fact she can be quite nasty herself

People do dig at each other on here.   That's par for the course.   If you can't take it, don't give it.    Not so long ago you were singing her praises on here.    You take sides too.  We all do from time to time.  

I think she is a caring woman who often sings my praises also, so your same reasoning would aply to her would it not here? It still does not excuse her looking to start.
I can taken anything dished out, but as stated, I will expose hypocrites and at times she shows the worst double standards. I never denied I can at times take side but I generally will speak out on many wrongs when a poster does. Like I say I have defended you both from false accusations and even backed this up with evidence. There was no call for her to say as she did tonight. It was deliberate to have a dig.
So you and others need to understand I will call people out when in the wrong and she was quite happy to call me a dickhead yesterday, but I moved on, she is continuing this.

So how about we get back on with the debate shall we?

Raggamuffin wrote:So what Quill is saying is that it's an illness, or a condition - like other mental conditions. However, if that condition results in children being harmed, they have to be put first. I'm all for trying to treat paedophilia, but it's a complex issue.

If it's something that a paedo is aware of as wrong and wants help, fair enough. But judging from the sick stories one hears on the news and the paedo circles on the internet, etc, there's a whole army of them out there that are quite happy to remain in that sick place, harming children and doing untold damage to innocent lives.

Thorin wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

People do dig at each other on here.   That's par for the course.   If you can't take it, don't give it.    Not so long ago you were singing her praises on here.    You take sides too.  We all do from time to time.  

I think she is a caring woman who often sings my praises also, so your same reasoning would aply to her would it not here? It still does not excuse her looking to start.
I can taken anything dished out, but as stated, I will expose hypocrites and at times she shows the worst double standards. I never denied I can at times take side but I generally will speak out on many wrongs when a poster does. Like I say I have defended you both from false accusations and even backed this up with evidence. There was no call for her to say as she did tonight. It was deliberate to have a dig.
So you and others need to understand I will call people out when in the wrong and she was quite happy to call me a dickhead yesterday, but I moved on, she is continuing this.

So how about we get back on with the debate shall we?

I think all of us know each other's foibles pretty well on here by now.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Thorin wrote:

I think she is a caring woman who often sings my praises also, so your same reasoning would aply to her would it not here? It still does not excuse her looking to start.
I can taken anything dished out, but as stated, I will expose hypocrites and at times she shows the worst double standards. I never denied I can at times take side but I generally will speak out on many wrongs when a poster does. Like I say I have defended you both from false accusations and even backed this up with evidence. There was no call for her to say as she did tonight. It was deliberate to have a dig.
So you and others need to understand I will call people out when in the wrong and she was quite happy to call me a dickhead yesterday, but I moved on, she is continuing this.

So how about we get back on with the debate shall we?

I think all of us know each other's foibles pretty well on here by now.    

Which is a fair point, so lets now all move on. So the debate can continue on here about the topic

HoratioTarr wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

At least you are able to ask the right question, magica.  Paedophilia is a mental derangement, just like the girl in the picture ^, save that it is a different disease.

"Good" and "evil" are handy concepts because they help us avoid our responsibility.  Mental derangement, or illness, is all over our criminal justice system, but it's just soooo much easier to say...he's a bad guy, lock him up!  What you are seeing in this thread is the institutional response that creates this situation...fook 'em, lock 'em up.

You are comparing men who are sexually attracted to children to a Down's child?    Seriously?

You don't sound too dissimilar to Ian Brady.   He believed good and evil didn't really exist.   That it was ok to do as he damned well pleased when it came to raping and murdering kids.    

Most men are attracted to women, and vice versa, but you don't see them going around raping each other.    There is no excuse for raping anyone, let alone kids, and if you can't control yourself you deserve to be locked up.

Typical institutional response.  If you go back far enough, it's was the earth is flat,
too.  It's a comfortable ignorance, led by the Donald Trumps and Boris Johnson's of the world.  Everything is black/white, good/bad, good/evil.  Life is about reward/punishment, and nothing ever changes.  Live within your narrow focus, without curiosity...and burn all books.

Seriously, that's the picture I get from you.  I feel sorry for you and your ignorant ways, but I've only got so much time to waste.  A lot of people don't want to live in that cocoon, and we vote too.  So while you're living your TV script of a life, others are at universities, hospitals, clinics and other institutions of progress, making the world a better place.  You have nothing to contribute, with your crime & punishment lifestyle, so step aside.

Syl wrote:Paedophilia is a sexual orientation that is inherent in a person.....how would you treat that?

Syl wrote:So....paedophilia is also a normal state that some people are born with....you cant NOT be gay if you are straight, you cant NOT be a paedophile if that's the way you are wired....it can be supressed if the person is willing, just as anyones sexual desire can with the right drugs.

Syl: How do you know so much about it?  First, we're talking about dolls, not paedophilia itself.  But even granting the connection, it is a state of mind.  I have no problem with making paedophilia a crime if it's actually committed--it should be--but it's also a misguided perception that perhaps can be corrected.  Viewing it as a form of mental illness allows for a much more favorable outcome.  

Again, how do you know it's some permanent, genetic certainty?  I suspect it's because you want to hold onto the belief that there are some people that can be condemned at birth...kinda like black people.  The belief in evil, though primitive, is like the belief in god...it lends certainty to your life.  When magica says, "...they can't cure themselves," there's actually a kind of comfort there.  

But belief in our ability to investigate and learn is also comforting. There was a day when people held the same views about leprosy...they (the lepers) are evil...they spread their filth around...they can't help themselves.  Science taught us otherwise, thank god, but the real lesson is this: the only real filth I see is ignorance.  Shortsighted and irrational people do condemn others for skin color, and other characteristics not of their own choosing, and they, of the short-sight, deserve to be separated and treated differently.   They do spread their disease around, the disease of ignorance.  If we could identify and isolate the ignorant, I would be in favor of institutionalization.

What on earth are you actually trying to say Quill? Just give a straightforward opinion about what you think the source of paedophilia is, and what you would do to suppress it and/or deal with a person who has raped a child. Do you think these dolls should be illegal? Do you think that downloading child porn should be illegal?

Let's be clear about this. It's not illegal to be attracted to prepubescent children, and if someone is happy to live their life being attracted to children, that's up to them. It is, however, illegal to act upon that desire, and to download child porn. I'm not sure about the doll thing - each to their own I guess, but there's a view that importing obscene items is an absolute no-no.

What is a person who is attracted to children is not happy about it? There are treatments which have been tried and are still being developed. The problem is getting such people to come forward. After all, who wants to go to their GP and say they're attracted to children?

Original Quill wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

You are comparing men who are sexually attracted to children to a Down's child?    Seriously?

You don't sound too dissimilar to Ian Brady.   He believed good and evil didn't really exist.   That it was ok to do as he damned well pleased when it came to raping and murdering kids.    

Most men are attracted to women, and vice versa, but you don't see them going around raping each other.    There is no excuse for raping anyone, let alone kids, and if you can't control yourself you deserve to be locked up.

Typical institutional response.  If you go back far enough, it's was the earth is flat,
too.  It's a comfortable ignorance, led by the Donald Trumps and Boris Johnson's of the world.  Everything is black/white, good/bad, good/evil.  Life is about reward/punishment, and nothing ever changes.  Live within your narrow focus, without curiosity...and burn all books.

Seriously, that's the picture I get from you.  I feel sorry for you and your ignorant ways, but I've only got so much time to waste.  A lot of people don't want to live in that cocoon, and we vote too.  So while you're living your TV script of a life, others are at universities, hospitals, clinics and other institutions of progress, making the world a better place.  You have nothing to contribute, with your crime & punishment lifestyle, so step aside.

Syl wrote:Paedophilia is a sexual orientation that is inherent in a person.....how would you treat that?

Syl wrote:So....paedophilia is also a normal state that some people are born with....you cant NOT be gay if you are straight, you cant NOT be a paedophile if that's the way you are wired....it can be supressed if the person is willing, just as anyones sexual desire can with the right drugs.

Syl: How do you know so much about it?  First, we're talking about dolls, not paedophilia itself.  But even granting the connection, it is a state of mind.  I have no problem with making paedophilia a crime if it's actually committed--it should be--but it's also a misguided perception that perhaps can be corrected.  Viewing it as a form of mental illness allows for a much more favorable outcome.  

Again, how do you know it's some permanent, genetic certainty?  I suspect it's because you want to hold onto the belief that there are some people that can be condemned at birth...kinda like black people.  The belief in evil, though primitive, is like the belief in god...it lends certainty to your life.  When magica says, "...they can't cure themselves," there's actually a kind of comfort there.  

But belief in our ability to investigate and learn is also comforting.  There was a day when people held the same views about leprosy...they (the lepers) are evil...they spread their filth around...they can't help themselves.  Science taught us otherwise, thank god, but the real lesson is this: the only real filth I see is ignorance.  Shortsighted and irrational people do condemn others for skin color, and other characteristics not of their own choosing, and they, of the short-sight, deserve to be separated and treated differently.   They do spread their disease around, the disease of ignorance.  If we could identify and isolate the ignorant, I would be in favor of institutionalization.

You need to put aside those well thumbed books you consult to try and convince us you know what you're talking about and just debate without trying to twist and manipulate.

Raggamuffin wrote:Let's be clear about this. It's not illegal to be attracted to prepubescent children, and if someone is happy to live their life being attracted to children, that's up to them. It is, however, illegal to act upon that desire, and to download child porn. I'm not sure about the doll thing - each to their own I guess, but there's a view that importing obscene items is an absolute no-no.

What is a person who is attracted to children is not happy about it? There are treatments which have been tried and are still being developed. The problem is getting such people to come forward. After all, who wants to go to their GP and say they're attracted to children?

I would imagine it's with medication. I can't think of any other way they might 'cure' this. I don't think it can be cured, but it most likely can be controlled...but for how long and how much is debatable.

I think

Bloody cat jumped straight on my keyboard and now i'v forgotten what I was going to say !!

Original Quill wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

You are comparing men who are sexually attracted to children to a Down's child?    Seriously?

You don't sound too dissimilar to Ian Brady.   He believed good and evil didn't really exist.   That it was ok to do as he damned well pleased when it came to raping and murdering kids.    

Most men are attracted to women, and vice versa, but you don't see them going around raping each other.    There is no excuse for raping anyone, let alone kids, and if you can't control yourself you deserve to be locked up.

Typical institutional response.  If you go back far enough, it's was the earth is flat,
too.  It's a comfortable ignorance, led by the Donald Trumps and Boris Johnson's of the world.  Everything is black/white, good/bad, good/evil.  Life is about reward/punishment, and nothing ever changes.  Live within your narrow focus, without curiosity...and burn all books.

Seriously, that's the picture I get from you.  I feel sorry for you and your ignorant ways, but I've only got so much time to waste.  A lot of people don't want to live in that cocoon, and we vote too.  So while you're living your TV script of a life, others are at universities, hospitals, clinics and other institutions of progress, making the world a better place.  You have nothing to contribute, with your crime & punishment lifestyle, so step aside.

Syl wrote:Paedophilia is a sexual orientation that is inherent in a person.....how would you treat that?

Syl wrote:So....paedophilia is also a normal state that some people are born with....you cant NOT be gay if you are straight, you cant NOT be a paedophile if that's the way you are wired....it can be supressed if the person is willing, just as anyones sexual desire can with the right drugs.

Syl: How do you know so much about it?  First, we're talking about dolls, not paedophilia itself.  But even granting the connection, it is a state of mind.  I have no problem with making paedophilia a crime if it's actually committed--it should be--but it's also a misguided perception that perhaps can be corrected.  Viewing it as a form of mental illness allows for a much more favorable outcome.  

Again, how do you know it's some permanent, genetic certainty?  I suspect it's because you want to hold onto the belief that there are some people that can be condemned at birth...kinda like black people.  The belief in evil, though primitive, is like the belief in god...it lends certainty to your life.  When magica says, "...they can't cure themselves," there's actually a kind of comfort there.  

But belief in our ability to investigate and learn is also comforting.  There was a day when people held the same views about leprosy...they (the lepers) are evil...they spread their filth around...they can't help themselves.  Science taught us otherwise, thank god, but the real lesson is this: the only real filth I see is ignorance.  Shortsighted and irrational people do condemn others for skin color, and other characteristics not of their own choosing, and they, of the short-sight, deserve to be separated and treated differently.   They do spread their disease around, the disease of ignorance.  If we could identify and isolate the ignorant, I would be in favor of institutionalization.

Firstly, HT has done an awful lot with her life Quill, privately and professionally, so its wrong to try to pigeon hole someone as living in a cocoon when actually she has lots of life experience...she just tends not to brag about it.

I'm certainly not an expert on paedophilia and never pretend to be. I keep an open mind about it, watching talks between paedophiles and people who have spent years studying the condition...entering debates and listening to what others have to say or have experienced themselves.

The subject has expanded solely from the dolls, the man in the OP had extreme child porn in his possession, that's why he was given the prison sentence.

What 'punishment' if any do you think he should have received?

nicko wrote:Bloody cat jumped straight on my keyboard and now i'v forgotten what I was going to say !!

HoratioTarr wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Let's be clear about this. It's not illegal to be attracted to prepubescent children, and if someone is happy to live their life being attracted to children, that's up to them. It is, however, illegal to act upon that desire, and to download child porn. I'm not sure about the doll thing - each to their own I guess, but there's a view that importing obscene items is an absolute no-no.

What is a person who is attracted to children is not happy about it? There are treatments which have been tried and are still being developed. The problem is getting such people to come forward. After all, who wants to go to their GP and say they're attracted to children?

I would imagine it's with medication.    I can't think of any other way they might 'cure' this.  I don't think it can be cured, but it most likely can be controlled...but for how long and how much is debatable.

I agree, apart from drugs I don't see an answer.
I have seen interviews when paedophiles who haven't yet harmed a child physically have begged for help, they fear they might.
Obviously the sex drive is  very powerful, so if it cant be controlled by will power and self control, supress it with drugs.
Hard/impossible to do though if the paedophile isn't willing.

Someone said back in the thread to remove all sexually stimulating material may help, it wouldn't....the most powerful sexual stimulant is the brain.

Can a sexual orientation be helped my drugs?

Perhaps one that control testosterone.

You cant cure a paedophile, no more than you can cure someone of being gay or straight. It is not like leprosy or Downs or any other such twaddle, it is not a mental condition or mental illness. It is against the law and it being illegal is a social construction. All of that said the focus has got to be on protecting children and in my opinion watching is no less an offence than doing.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:Can a sexual orientation be helped my drugs?

Perhaps one that control testosterone.

I don't think a drug has ever been discovered that can change anyones sexual orientation do you?
It can supress it that's all.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:Can a sexual orientation be helped my drugs?

Perhaps one that control testosterone.

That makes little sense as you just would be suppressing this within any male, no matter their sexual orientation

Miffs2 wrote:You cant cure  a paedophile, no more than you can cure someone of being gay or straight. It is not like leprosy or Downs or any other such twaddle, it is not a mental condition or mental illness. It is against the law and it being illegal is a social construction. All of that said the focus has got to be on protecting children and in my opinion watching is no less an offence than doing.

Owning and watching extreme child porn, like this man has been found guilty of can earn a prison sentence of up to 10 years in the UK...sad that such lenient sentences are given out....seems that acting paedophiles are often treated more leniently than robbers.

Thorin wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:Can a sexual orientation be helped my drugs?

Perhaps one that control testosterone.

That makes little sense as you just would be suppressing this within any male, no matter their sexual orientation

Not any male. Just ones who have been found to have a predisposition to finding prepubescents sexually attractive. And perhaps, have acted on it.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Thorin wrote:


That makes little sense as you just would be suppressing this within any male, no matter their sexual orientation

Not any male. Just ones who have been found to have a predisposition to finding prepubescents sexually attractive. And perhaps, have acted on it.

But would it work and why has this not be done already?

Thorin wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Not any male. Just ones who have been found to have a predisposition to finding prepubescents sexually attractive. And perhaps, have acted on it.

But would it work and why has this not be done already?

It's on trial in 6 prisons around the UK.

Syl wrote:

Miffs2 wrote:You cant cure  a paedophile, no more than you can cure someone of being gay or straight. It is not like leprosy or Downs or any other such twaddle, it is not a mental condition or mental illness. It is against the law and it being illegal is a social construction. All of that said the focus has got to be on protecting children and in my opinion watching is no less an offence than doing.

Owning and watching extreme child porn, like this man has been found guilty of can earn a prison sentence of up to 10 years in the UK...sad that such lenient sentences are given out....seems that acting paedophiles are often treated more leniently than robbers.

You are right, our society values money over children.

Miffs2 wrote:

Syl wrote:

Owning and watching extreme child porn, like this man has been found guilty of can earn a prison sentence of up to 10 years in the UK...sad that such lenient sentences are given out....seems that acting paedophiles are often treated more leniently than robbers.

You are right, our society values money over children.

That last sentence is a good summary of the Conservative philosophy  and mantra since the Thatcher days.

Andy's always got to bring the Tories in for a bashing, Give it rest pillock.

nicko wrote:Bloody cat jumped straight on my keyboard and now i'v forgotten what I was going to say !!

LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

Fuzzy Zack wrote:Can a sexual orientation be helped my drugs?

Perhaps one that control testosterone.

That's basically what they do. Suppress the sexual drive. So, you may as well say they have no outlet at all and that's like chemical castration. So it's not surprising more of them don't come forwards.

nicko wrote:Andy's always got to bring the Tories in for a bashing,  Give it rest pillock.

Who made you a moderator?
This isn't  the Flop forum.
I will say what I like, to whom I choose, on whichever thread I like, provided it is within the forum rules and is pertinent to that thread.
My comment WAS relevent because the Conservative  mantra HAS been to put money before people.
Was and still is.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:Can a sexual orientation be helped my drugs?

Perhaps one that control testosterone.

That's basically what they do. Suppress the sexual drive.   So, you may as well say they have no outlet at all and that's like chemical castration. So it's not surprising more of them don't come forwards.

It is chemical castration.

Apprently different drugs can vary the impact and long term trials on one prison has completed. They've extended the trials to another 6 prisons in 2017. On a voluntary basis.

It should be given to all rapists, as well as paedos.

Raggamuffin wrote:What on earth are you actually trying to say Quill? Just give a straightforward opinion about what you think the source of paedophilia is, and what you would do to suppress it and/or deal with a person who has raped a child. Do you think these dolls should be illegal? Do you think that downloading child porn should be illegal?

I think paedophilia is the result of relationship trauma at some point in a child's life.  During the formation of self-identity a child is introduced to some confusion pertaining either to a parent, or a sibling, which leads to confusion about the symbolism of childhood, a parent, or another relative.  It can even be positive, and the child later in life wants to return to the period, but at some point the associations become twisted and confused.

There are other outlets for the confusion.  Some become writers...Phillip Roth (Goodbye Columbus) and John Irving (World According to Garp) may have found many of their fictional images in such turnabouts.  To the extent that romance novels are actually female porn, perhaps some of those authors are manifestations of the pattern as well.  I mean, where did these anomalies come from if not from early-childhood mix-and-matches.

I'm guessing...but that's just one diagnosis of the problem.  There are certainly other theories, many of them.  Whatever it is, some end up with the desire, not just to write or paint, but to enact...and that can be harmful.  But understanding, not judgement, is the real answer.  

When you begin to consider all of the theories, you see how facile and superficial is the standard let's punish him, or institutional response.  It's a primitive, fear response...like ape meets saber-toothed tiger.  There's a lot going on in the human mind, and we have precious little idea about how associations and impressions are created.  They say we only use about 12% of our cerebral capacity (judging from some on here, perhaps 1%...lol), and judgment should come after knowledge.  (History has shown that we like to judge, that's why we invented religion.)  I see enough inane thinking in politics, with assholes trying to destroy healthcare and bring harm to the human race...if we starting infecting our social and human developmental thinking with the same aberrations, we go right back into the dark ages.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:Can a sexual orientation be helped my drugs?

Perhaps one that control testosterone.

That's basically what they do. Suppress the sexual drive.   So, you may as well say they have no outlet at all and that's like chemical castration. So it's not surprising more of them don't come forwards.

And death to non-Christians. You're the closet thing to a Nazi on this forum.

Original Quill wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

That's basically what they do. Suppress the sexual drive.   So, you may as well say they have no outlet at all and that's like chemical castration. So it's not surprising more of them don't come forwards.

And death to non-Christians.  You're the closet thing to a Nazi on this forum.

How on earth, based off what Horatio said, that you deduce she is a Nazi, when she never called for anything> That she clearly was answering Zacks point on this and why some would not come forward?
Did you actually read what she said?

There is nothing she said that made her like a Nazi

Thorin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

And death to non-Christians.  You're the closet thing to a Nazi on this forum.

How on earth, based off what Horatio said, that you deduce she is a Nazi, when she never called for anything> That she clearly was answering Zacks point on this and why some would not come forward?
Did you actually read what she said?

There is nothing she said that made her like a Nazi

He's placing anger before reason. I think all of the institutional responses call for action before thought. There's too much of that going around right now.

Original Quill wrote:

Thorin wrote:


How on earth, based off what Horatio said, that you deduce she is a Nazi, when she never called for anything> That she clearly was answering Zacks point on this and why some would not come forward?
Did you actually read what she said?

There is nothing she said that made her like a Nazi

He's placing anger before reason.  I think all of the institutional responses call for action before thought.  There's too much of that going around right now.  

Horatio is a she and she never placed anger before reason.
Did she call for chemical castration?
Errrr no, it was Zack that went off a trial being used in prisons and too this Horatio stated that its more than likely why many do not come forward
You just completely misread what she said and badly so.
I do this sometimes, so recap over what Zack said, then read again what Horatio said

The only person who was emotional here, was you by casting her as a Nazi. That was not reasoned, but emotive

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:What on earth are you actually trying to say Quill? Just give a straightforward opinion about what you think the source of paedophilia is, and what you would do to suppress it and/or deal with a person who has raped a child. Do you think these dolls should be illegal? Do you think that downloading child porn should be illegal?

I think paedophilia is the result of relationship trauma at some point in a child's life.  During the formation of self-identity a child is introduced to some confusion pertaining either to a parent, or a sibling, which leads to confusion about the symbolism of childhood, a parent, or another relative.  It can even be positive, and the child later in life wants to return to the period, but at some point the associations become twisted and confused.

There are other outlets for the confusion.  Some become writers...Phillip Roth (Goodbye Columbus) and John Irving (World According to Garp) may have found many of their fictional images in such turnabouts.  To the extent that romance novels are actually female porn, perhaps some of those authors are manifestations of the pattern as well.  I mean, where did these anomalies come from if not from early-childhood mix-and-matches.

I'm guessing...but that's just one diagnosis of the problem.  There are certainly other theories, many of them.  Whatever it is, some end up with the desire, not just to write or paint, but to enact...and that can be harmful.  But understanding, not judgement, is the real answer.  

When you begin to consider all of the theories, you see how facile and superficial is the standard let's punish him, or institutional response.  It's a primitive, fear response...like ape meets saber-toothed tiger.  There's a lot going on in the human mind, and we have precious little idea about how associations and impressions are created.  They say we only use about 12% of our cerebral capacity (judging from some on here, perhaps 1%...lol), and judgment should come after knowledge.  (History has shown that we like to judge, that's why we invented religion.)  I see enough inane thinking in politics, with assholes trying to destroy healthcare and bring harm to the human race...if we starting infecting our social and human developmental thinking with the same aberrations, we go right back into the dark ages.

I'm sure the above would give untold comfort to those raped and abused by adults in their childhood. What joy to know that all paedo's before and into the future are merely 'misunderstood.'.

It's not just the physical sex act that does so much damage, is it, but the psychological horror. A paedo isn't normal. The worst ones have a higher sex drive for starters, and compulsions they can't control. Psychotherapy doesn't work for paedo's either. All you have left is chemical or physical castration or you lock them away from society and children forever.

Sure, it would be ideal to stop these people before they even start, and offer rehabilitation etc. But it won't stop the ones who want to carry on. The ones who selfishly pursue and act upon their own depraved sexual fantasies. No amount of platitudes and pontificating about how society should be helping these people will make a difference. They do it because they want to and nothing will stop them until they get caught and locked up.

Original Quill wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

That's basically what they do. Suppress the sexual drive.   So, you may as well say they have no outlet at all and that's like chemical castration. So it's not surprising more of them don't come forwards.

And death to non-Christians.  You're the closet thing to a Nazi on this forum.

No, what I am is someone who can hold their own against you and your forum blunderbuss. You don't like it. So you resort to what all people do when they haven't the wit to debate intelligently. As they say in that book you consult...I rest my case.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:Can a sexual orientation be helped my drugs?

Perhaps one that control testosterone.

That's basically what they do. Suppress the sexual drive.   So, you may as well say they have no outlet at all and that's like chemical castration. So it's not surprising more of them don't come forwards.

This is interesting...looking at things from a paedophiles point of view.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/should-paedophiles-be-chemically-castrated/


At the end of 2008, in the sleepy post-Christmas, pre-New Year lull, came news of a pioneering project: convicted paedophiles could volunteer for anti-libidinal drugs under a new scheme aimed at slashing reoffending rates. Eleven people were reported to have signed up for treatment – which critics quickly labelled ‘chemical castration’ – at HMP Whatton in Nottinghamshire.

In the intervening years, the programme has been rolled out to six further institutions, with the current volume of participants now reaching into the early hundreds.

One of those enrolled is 51-year-old Peter*, who began taking the medication in early 2013 after being convicted for a sexual offence against a child. “I approached the psychology department [at the prison] and said, 'I know I need to address my offending behaviour. Is there anything I can do?’ We looked at the possibilities, and this was one of them.”
Combining the tablets – which reduce sexual interest and arousal – with behavioural therapy courses, Peter noticed a difference within weeks. “Before, I couldn’t be with a female without getting some thoughts, feelings or fantasies,” he explains. “With the medication, I’m completely fine – it hasn’t cut them down 100 percent, but it’s reduced them, and I’m more comfortable and confident.
“I was doing everything I could to stay in prison because I didn’t trust myself to be on the outside. But that’s now completely the other way around.”

Peter’s success is a much-needed victory for the scheme, which has raised eyebrows since being suggested by Don Grubin, Professor of Forensic Psychiatry at Newcastle University, in 2007. Given the green light by then-Home Secretary Jack Straw, it drew its fair share of criticism: "Sex offending is often not about sex at all, but about violence and domination. The drugs used will not affect those attitudes," opined Frances Cook of the Howard League for Penal Reform; “You don’t need to have an erect penis to abuse a child,” said Donald Findlater, director of Research and Development with the Lucy Faithfull Foundation, the sole UK-wide charity dedicated to tackling child sex abuse. “Alongside any of those chemical interventions, you still need cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT) to help people develop appropriate thoughts about sexual consent.”


More in link.

Syl wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

That's basically what they do. Suppress the sexual drive.   So, you may as well say they have no outlet at all and that's like chemical castration. So it's not surprising more of them don't come forwards.

This is interesting...looking at things from a paedophiles point of view.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/men/thinking-man/should-paedophiles-be-chemically-castrated/


At the end of 2008, in the sleepy post-Christmas, pre-New Year lull, came news of a pioneering project: convicted paedophiles could volunteer for anti-libidinal drugs under a new scheme aimed at slashing reoffending rates. Eleven people were reported to have signed up for treatment – which critics quickly labelled ‘chemical castration’ – at HMP Whatton in Nottinghamshire.

In the intervening years, the programme has been rolled out to six further institutions, with the current volume of participants now reaching into the early hundreds.

One of those enrolled is 51-year-old Peter*, who began taking the medication in early 2013 after being convicted for a sexual offence against a child. “I approached the psychology department [at the prison] and said, 'I know I need to address my offending behaviour. Is there anything I can do?’ We looked at the possibilities, and this was one of them.”
Combining the tablets – which reduce sexual interest and arousal – with behavioural therapy courses, Peter noticed a difference within weeks. “Before, I couldn’t be with a female without getting some thoughts, feelings or fantasies,” he explains. “With the medication, I’m completely fine – it hasn’t cut them down 100 percent, but it’s reduced them, and I’m more comfortable and confident.
“I was doing everything I could to stay in prison because I didn’t trust myself to be on the outside. But that’s now completely the other way around.”

Peter’s success is a much-needed victory for the scheme, which has raised eyebrows since being suggested by Don Grubin, Professor of Forensic Psychiatry at Newcastle University, in 2007. Given the green light by then-Home Secretary Jack Straw, it drew its fair share of criticism: "Sex offending is often not about sex at all, but about violence and domination. The drugs used will not affect those attitudes," opined Frances Cook of the Howard League for Penal Reform; “You don’t need to have an erect penis to abuse a child,” said Donald Findlater, director of Research and Development with the Lucy Faithfull Foundation, the sole UK-wide charity dedicated to tackling child sex abuse. “Alongside any of those chemical interventions, you still need cognitive behavioural therapy (CBT) to help people develop appropriate thoughts about sexual consent.”

More in link.

More importantly, from the therapist's point of view. I don't think we are anywhere near the answer, but this discussion goes in the right direction. Good post, Syl.

It's amazing how little research is done in personal and sex study. Even the experts (above) don't seem to know the difference between paedophilia and rape. I have a theory that the average person shies away from discussion of such matters because of our religious background. Religion fooks up people a lot! As a result, we are atomic scientists in the one area, but we don't know our belly-button from our asshole in the other area.

We're too embarrassed to talk about it...and that's just too juvenile.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Let's be clear about this. It's not illegal to be attracted to prepubescent children, and if someone is happy to live their life being attracted to children, that's up to them. It is, however, illegal to act upon that desire, and to download child porn. I'm not sure about the doll thing - each to their own I guess, but there's a view that importing obscene items is an absolute no-no.

What is a person who is attracted to children is not happy about it? There are treatments which have been tried and are still being developed. The problem is getting such people to come forward. After all, who wants to go to their GP and say they're attracted to children?

I would imagine it's with medication.    I can't think of any other way they might 'cure' this.  I don't think it can be cured, but it most likely can be controlled...but for how long and how much is debatable.

Yes, with medication. This is one they're trying.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cancer-drug-could-work-as-paedophile-cure-scientists-say-a6972266.html

I don't know if counselling also helps. Being attracted to underage teenagers should also be distinguished from attraction to prepubescent children.

Raggamuffin wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

I would imagine it's with medication.    I can't think of any other way they might 'cure' this.  I don't think it can be cured, but it most likely can be controlled...but for how long and how much is debatable.

Yes, with medication. This is one they're trying.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cancer-drug-could-work-as-paedophile-cure-scientists-say-a6972266.html

I don't know if counselling also helps. Being attracted to underage teenagers should also be distinguished from attraction to prepubescent children.

I think that's an important line, too.  It's a difficult area, because we've never thought about it   (Again, I think our religions have made this a taboo subject.)  

But at some level of growth it's healthy to be attracted to young, but mature people of the opposite sex.  Youth means a male and female able to parent and undertake the responsibility.  I think nature set it up that way.

But a child (I don't know if prepubescent is the criterion, as I don't know if such scientific concepts are awake in the primitive being) is clearly out of bounds.  Again, here is an area that needs a lot more research.  Why do we shy away from such studies...because it's ungodly and the priest frowns on talking about such things!

Original Quill wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Yes, with medication. This is one they're trying.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cancer-drug-could-work-as-paedophile-cure-scientists-say-a6972266.html

I don't know if counselling also helps. Being attracted to underage teenagers should also be distinguished from attraction to prepubescent children.

I think that's an important line, too.  It's a difficult area, because we've never thought about it   (Again, I think our religions have made this a taboo subject.)  

But at some level of growth it's healthy to be attracted to young, but mature people of the opposite sex.  Youth means a male and female able to parent and undertake the responsibility.  I think nature set it up that way.

But a child (I don't know if prepubescent is the criterion, as I don't know if such scientific concepts are awake in the primitive being) is clearly out of bounds.  Again, here is an area that needs a lot more research.  Why do we shy away from such studies...because it's ungodly and the priest frowns on talking about such things!

There's a difference between being specifically attracted to children rather than adults, and being attracted to a teenager who might seem older than his/her years,

HoratioTarr wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:Can a sexual orientation be helped my drugs?

Perhaps one that control testosterone.

That's basically what they do. Suppress the sexual drive.   So, you may as well say they have no outlet at all and that's like chemical castration. So it's not surprising more of them don't come forwards.

They wouldn't need an outlet though. They might prefer to have a suppressed sexual drive than be attracted to children all the time.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

I think that's an important line, too.  It's a difficult area, because we've never thought about it   (Again, I think our religions have made this a taboo subject.)  

But at some level of growth it's healthy to be attracted to young, but mature people of the opposite sex.  Youth means a male and female able to parent and undertake the responsibility.  I think nature set it up that way.

But a child (I don't know if prepubescent is the criterion, as I don't know if such scientific concepts are awake in the primitive being) is clearly out of bounds.  Again, here is an area that needs a lot more research.  Why do we shy away from such studies...because it's ungodly and the priest frowns on talking about such things!

There's a difference between being specifically attracted to children rather than adults, and being attracted to a teenager who might seem older than his/her years,

Exactly.

Raggamuffin wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

I would imagine it's with medication.    I can't think of any other way they might 'cure' this.  I don't think it can be cured, but it most likely can be controlled...but for how long and how much is debatable.

Yes, with medication. This is one they're trying.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cancer-drug-could-work-as-paedophile-cure-scientists-say-a6972266.html

I don't know if counselling also helps. Being attracted to underage teenagers should also be distinguished from attraction to prepubescent children.

A paedophile is attracted to pre-pubescent children. Ephebophilia is an attraction to adolescents. Hebephilia refers to the sexual preference for earlier pubescent children.

The OP is about a paedophile.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Yes, with medication. This is one they're trying.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/cancer-drug-could-work-as-paedophile-cure-scientists-say-a6972266.html

I don't know if counselling also helps. Being attracted to underage teenagers should also be distinguished from attraction to prepubescent children.

 A paedophile is attracted to pre-pubescent children.   Ephebophilia is an attraction to adolescents.  Hebephilia refers to the sexual preference for earlier pubescent children.  

The OP is about a paedophile.

That's a handy definitional schemata, but what does the evidence say about where the line is drawn in reality?  More research needed.