Bosses can now legally ban headscarves, crosses and turbans in the workplace.

First topic message reminder :

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/05/31/bosses-can-ban-headscarves-and-crucifixes-eu-judge-says/

Is it a step forwards?
I tend to think not..... I agree that a full face veil is not appropriate at work, but if a headscarf, turban, crucifix, or any other article worn for religious or cultural reasons doesn't interfere with the job why ban them?

Some jobs require a headscarf...has anyone thought of that?

How long ago was that Syl

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:

Its so annoying when a post gets lost in the ether ...and why are they always the long ones?.... you can type a lot faster than me...so look on the bright side.

I just think you and I are looking at this from polar opposite viewpoints Thor. I am prepared to believe that you do have some good points, but I still think in many cases Muslim women choose to wear, and are not forced to wear a scarf.
You don't agree with that....I hope you are wrong and I am right, but all I know is the modern Muslim women that I hear speak about it say its choice....I concede that maybe the women who don't speak are the oppressed ones.

I wish more Muslims entered into forum debates, it would solve a lot of arguments about them.  

Have to go...laters. x

Sorry Syl. I am never going to defend an oppressive form of dress that was invented to control women.
To me it denies freedom and independence.
There is two Muslims on this forum Zack and Sexy.
Some Muslim women do claim its a choice, but have been conditioned to believe so. As I have shown its not really a choice to wear, but the doctrine that they follow. That makes them believe its required to wear, as they are at fault for the advances of men and that it will displease Allah if they do not. Thus fear is played on the vulnerabilities of those who fear being punished in their belief of the after life.

Enjoy your afternoon


x

Didge Muslim women wear it to PLEASE Allah SWT.


That's the whole point of Islam. It's their choice.

FYI did you watch the Extremist British Muslims? On channel 4

Thorin wrote:How long ago was that Syl

Icons don't age Thor.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Sorry Syl. I am never going to defend an oppressive form of dress that was invented to control women.
To me it denies freedom and independence.
There is two Muslims on this forum Zack and Sexy.
Some Muslim women do claim its a choice, but have been conditioned to believe so. As I have shown its not really a choice to wear, but the doctrine that they follow. That makes them believe its required to wear, as they are at fault for the advances of men and that it will displease Allah if they do not. Thus fear is played on the vulnerabilities of those who fear being punished in their belief of the after life.

Enjoy your afternoon


x

Didge Muslim women wear it to PLEASE Allah SWT.


That's the whole point of Islam. It's their choice.

FYI did you watch the Extremist British Muslims? On channel 4

Sexy, if its to please, then to not wear, is to displease.
Which means fear is used as a weapon of conscience on Muslim women with the after life.
So they are conditioned to believe they should wear. It then ceases to be a choice as the belief is they should wear. A conscious choice does not require fear based persuasion. Please don;t tell me this is not the case because if you watch the video I posted, there is an industry of this very call for women to cover their hair.

As to the program, no.

Again, people need to stop defending what is basically a call for women to be cast and blamed for what their hair looks like, as if men cannot contain or control themselves. Its ridiculous, and is not even found within the Quran, this is a male invention. To control women. The Hijab in the Quran is not a headscarf.

Thorin wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:


Didge Muslim women wear it to PLEASE Allah SWT.


That's the whole point of Islam. It's their choice.

FYI did you watch the Extremist British Muslims? On channel 4

Sexy, if its to please, then to not wear, is to displease.
Which means fear is used as a weapon of conscience on Muslim women with the after life.
So they are conditioned to believe they should wear. It then ceases to be a choice as the belief is they should wear. A conscious choice does not require fear based persuasion. Please don;t tell me this is not the case because if you watch the video I posted, there is an industry of this very call for women to cover their hair.

As to the program, no.

Again, people need to stop defending what is basically a call for women to be cast and blamed for what their hair looks like, as if men cannot contain or control themselves. Its ridiculous, and is not even found within the Quran, this is a male invention. To control women. The Hijab in the Quran is not a headscarf.

It is in the Quran. It states to cover your body and head. In sura Nisa.

Islam is based on pleasing Allah SWT

For you that might be fear because you don't believe in Islam. Fair enough but for the followers of Islam it isn't.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Sexy, if its to please, then to not wear, is to displease.
Which means fear is used as a weapon of conscience on Muslim women with the after life.
So they are conditioned to believe they should wear. It then ceases to be a choice as the belief is they should wear. A conscious choice does not require fear based persuasion. Please don;t tell me this is not the case because if you watch the video I posted, there is an industry of this very call for women to cover their hair.

As to the program, no.

Again, people need to stop defending what is basically a call for women to be cast and blamed for what their hair looks like, as if men cannot contain or control themselves. Its ridiculous, and is not even found within the Quran, this is a male invention. To control women. The Hijab in the Quran is not a headscarf.

It is in the Quran. It states to cover your body and head. In sura Nisa.

Islam is based on pleasing Allah SWT

For you that might be fear because you don't believe in Islam. Fair enough but for the followers of Islam it isn't.

No it does not, show me the verse?

Yes its also based on making people fear Allah, through countless verses on what happens to those who displease him.

I don't fear death, but all Muslims have to fear Allah, in order to believe.
So are you telling me, you do not fear Allah?

Thorin wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

It is in the Quran. It states to cover your body and head. In sura Nisa.

Islam is based on pleasing Allah SWT

For you that might be fear because you don't believe in Islam. Fair enough but for the followers of Islam it isn't.

No it does not, show me the verse?

Yes its also based on making people fear Allah, through countless verses on what happens to those who displease him.

I don't fear death, but all Muslims have to fear Allah, in order to believe.
So are you telling me, you do not fear Allah?

Where did I say I didn't? That's the ONLY thing I fear!

Please don't argue about the Quran with me fgs!

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Thorin wrote:


No it does not, show me the verse?

Yes its also based on making people fear Allah, through countless verses on what happens to those who displease him.

I don't fear death, but all Muslims have to fear Allah, in order to believe.
So are you telling me, you do not fear Allah?

Where did I say I didn't? That's the ONLY thing I fear!

Please don't argue about the Quran with me fgs!

Why can I not?
How absurd, I can question anything found in the Quran, especially when it effects people.

So you have to fear, as all Muslims do with Allah.

Thus to those who believe they should wear, will be based on not wanting to displease Allah and ending up in what you call the hell fire.

Thus fear is used to coerce Muslim women to wear

Thorin wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Where did I say I didn't? That's the ONLY thing I fear!

Please don't argue about the Quran with me fgs!

Why can I not?
How absurd, I can question anything found in the Quran, especially when it effects people.

So you have to fear, as all Muslims do with Allah.

Thus to those who believe they should wear, will be based on not wanting to displease Allah and ending up in what you call the hell fire.

Thus fear is used to coerce Muslim women to wear

All religions use a basic structure for their followers, be it Islam Hinduism or any other religion.

You call it fear others refer to it as obedience. Just a different way of thinking.

The reason I said don't argue with me about the Quran is that you haven't read it and I have from the age of 6.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Why can I not?
How absurd, I can question anything found in the Quran, especially when it effects people.

So you have to fear, as all Muslims do with Allah.

Thus to those who believe they should wear, will be based on not wanting to displease Allah and ending up in what you call the hell fire.

Thus fear is used to coerce Muslim women to wear

All religions use a basic structure for their followers, be it Islam Hinduism or any other religion.

You call it fear others refer to it as obedience. Just a different way of thinking.

The reason I said don't argue with me about the Quran is that you haven't read it and I have from the age of 6.

Poor misdirection, stating something as if that makes you right.

You have no idea what I have researched and I can back my views here

No it does not, as stated, there is no verse in the Quran, that tells women to cover their hair.

Well would you advise any woman to be obedient to their husband, if he constantly threatened them with violence?

If people want to fear Allah, they're perfectly entitled to.

Raggamuffin wrote:If people want to fear Allah, they're perfectly entitled to.

Of course they can Rags.

Never said they could not, but its ridiculous that people do fear something, that is quite appalling.

Like I say, if Two parents create a child and threaten their child to follow the same beliefs. That if they do not, they will suffer unimaginable pain. Then actually cause horrible pain to them. 

We would class that as child abuse.

Yet millions are happy to follow a deity, the Abrahamic deity who does the same.

Thorin wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

All religions use a basic structure for their followers, be it Islam Hinduism or any other religion.

You call it fear others refer to it as obedience. Just a different way of thinking.

The reason I said don't argue with me about the Quran is that you haven't read it and I have from the age of 6.

Poor misdirection, stating something as if that makes you right.

You have no idea what I have researched and I can back my views here

No it does not, as stated, there is no verse in the Quran, that tells women to cover their hair.

Well would you advise any woman to be obedient to their husband, if he constantly threatened them with violence?

Your knowledge on Islam and the Quran is very basic.

How can you compare God to a man? That's just pathetic.

Anyway stop changing the subject. That's a whole new debate.

The fact of the matter is the Hijab is a religious requirement in Islam.

End of.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Poor misdirection, stating something as if that makes you right.

You have no idea what I have researched and I can back my views here

No it does not, as stated, there is no verse in the Quran, that tells women to cover their hair.

Well would you advise any woman to be obedient to their husband, if he constantly threatened them with violence?

Your knowledge on Islam and the Quran is very basic.

How can you compare God to a man? That's just pathetic.

Anyway stop changing the subject. That's a whole new debate.

The fact of the matter is the Hijab is a religious requirement in Islam.

End of.

1) Really, because so far you have produced zero evidence for your claim. I have shown that the Hijab in the Quran is not even clothing.

2) No, this deity is worse than humans. As it attention seeks and needs the love of people and if not, makes them suffer. 

3) As seen the Hijab, is not an item of clothing and now you claim its a religious requirement, which then means its not a choice.

So make your mind up.

Its not a religious requirement, its the made up opinion of some Muslim men, who wish to control women.

How have you shown hijab is not in the Quran?

SEXY MAMA wrote:How have you shown hijab is not in the Quran?

Never claimed its not in the Quran.

I said that the Hijab in the Quran is not an item of clothing.

Please read the replies as already posted

The word ḥijāb in the Quran refers not to women's clothing, but rather a spatial partition or curtain. Sometimes its use is literal, as in the verse which refers to the screen that separated Muhammad's wives from the visitors to his house (33:53), while in other cases the word denotes separation between deity and mortals (42:51), wrongdoers and righteous (7:46, 41:5), believers and unbelievers (17:45), and light from darkness (38:32)

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:If people want to fear Allah, they're perfectly entitled to.

Of course they can Rags.

Never said they could not, but its ridiculous that people do fear something, that is quite appalling.

Like I say, if Two parents create a child and threaten their child to follow the same beliefs. That if they do not, they will suffer unimaginable pain. Then actually cause horrible pain to them. 

We would class that as child abuse.

Yet millions are happy to follow a deity, the Abrahamic deity who does the same.

I thought all religions were rooted in fear...the wrath of God etc.

Syl wrote:

Thorin wrote:

Of course they can Rags.

Never said they could not, but its ridiculous that people do fear something, that is quite appalling.

Like I say, if Two parents create a child and threaten their child to follow the same beliefs. That if they do not, they will suffer unimaginable pain. Then actually cause horrible pain to them. 

We would class that as child abuse.

Yet millions are happy to follow a deity, the Abrahamic deity who does the same.

I thought all religions were rooted in fear...the wrath of God etc.

They generally are, because when many of them formed, they could not understand natural disasters Syl.

Its why religion is so wrong, as they are often based on vengeful deities

They are often cruel and I fail to see how anything like that should warrant people to love them, but its out of fear, that they do love them.

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:If people want to fear Allah, they're perfectly entitled to.

Of course they can Rags.

Never said they could not, but its ridiculous that people do fear something, that is quite appalling.

Like I say, if Two parents create a child and threaten their child to follow the same beliefs. That if they do not, they will suffer unimaginable pain. Then actually cause horrible pain to them. 

We would class that as child abuse.

Yet millions are happy to follow a deity, the Abrahamic deity who does the same.

If they're happy to do so, it's entirely up to them. Nobody should be telling them how to feel.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:

Of course they can Rags.

Never said they could not, but its ridiculous that people do fear something, that is quite appalling.

Like I say, if Two parents create a child and threaten their child to follow the same beliefs. That if they do not, they will suffer unimaginable pain. Then actually cause horrible pain to them. 

We would class that as child abuse.

Yet millions are happy to follow a deity, the Abrahamic deity who does the same.

If they're happy to do so, it's entirely up to them. Nobody should be telling them how to feel.

It is up to them, but I draw the line, when this is forced unto people.

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

If they're happy to do so, it's entirely up to them. Nobody should be telling them how to feel.

It is up to them, but I draw the line, when this is forced unto people.

Yet you are happy to force them to NOT wear it!!!!!!!

Thorin wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:How have you shown hijab is not in the Quran?

Never claimed its not in the Quran.

I said that the Hijab in the Quran is not an item of clothing.

Please read the replies as already posted

The word ḥijāb in the Quran refers not to women's clothing, but rather a spatial partition or curtain. Sometimes its use is literal, as in the verse which refers to the screen that separated Muhammad's wives from the visitors to his house (33:53), while in other cases the word denotes separation between deity and mortals (42:51), wrongdoers and righteous (7:46, 41:5), believers and unbelievers (17:45), and light from darkness (38:32)

One word of Arabic has a lot of other meanings.

That's the thing about Arabic and reading things in CONTEXT.

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

If they're happy to do so, it's entirely up to them. Nobody should be telling them how to feel.

It is up to them, but I draw the line, when this is forced unto people.

It's not forced on them. You just said they're happy about it.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Thorin wrote:


It is up to them, but I draw the line, when this is forced unto people.

Yet you are happy to force them to NOT wear it!!!!!!!

How is it forcing when everyone has to abide by a dress code?

Again they can wear outside of work, but whilst in work they have to respect the company rules.

Why should they be privileged over all other workers?

Its you arguing for inequality with that.

I only want Muslim women to open their eyes up and see how ridiculous they have been tricked into believing poor beliefs. I would never force them not to wear, but I respect a companies decision on its dress code, why wont you?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


It is up to them, but I draw the line, when this is forced unto people.

It's not forced on them. You just said they're happy about it.

Its forced on many, for example children.
In some countries, you cannot even leave the faith
Many are happy being religious, that does not mean millions are not also forced

Thorin wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Yet you are happy to force them to NOT wear it!!!!!!!

How is it forcing when everyone has to abide by a dress code?

Again they can wear outside of work, but whilst in work they have to respect the company rules.

Why should they be privileged over all other workers?

Its you arguing for inequality with that.

I only want Muslim women to open their eyes up and see how ridiculous they have been tricked into believing poor beliefs. I would never force them not to wear, but I respect a companies decision on its dress code, why wont you?

I think you are ridiculous for being an Atheist
But that's my opinion. I can't force you to see the light!

Thorin wrote:

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Yet you are happy to force them to NOT wear it!!!!!!!

How is it forcing when everyone has to abide by a dress code?

Again they can wear outside of work, but whilst in work they have to respect the company rules.

Why should they be privileged over all other workers?

Its you arguing for inequality with that.

I only want Muslim women to open their eyes up and see how ridiculous they have been tricked into believing poor beliefs. I would never force them not to wear, but I respect a companies decision on its dress code, why wont you?

You're opposed to dress codes at school though.

SEXY MAMA wrote:

Thorin wrote:


How is it forcing when everyone has to abide by a dress code?

Again they can wear outside of work, but whilst in work they have to respect the company rules.

Why should they be privileged over all other workers?

Its you arguing for inequality with that.

I only want Muslim women to open their eyes up and see how ridiculous they have been tricked into believing poor beliefs. I would never force them not to wear, but I respect a companies decision on its dress code, why wont you?

I think you are ridiculous for being an Atheist
But that's my opinion. I can't force you to see the light!

No problem, you are entitled to your opinion.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


How is it forcing when everyone has to abide by a dress code?

Again they can wear outside of work, but whilst in work they have to respect the company rules.

Why should they be privileged over all other workers?

Its you arguing for inequality with that.

I only want Muslim women to open their eyes up and see how ridiculous they have been tricked into believing poor beliefs. I would never force them not to wear, but I respect a companies decision on its dress code, why wont you?

You're opposed to dress codes at school though.

He changes his views like the wind!

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


How is it forcing when everyone has to abide by a dress code?

Again they can wear outside of work, but whilst in work they have to respect the company rules.

Why should they be privileged over all other workers?

Its you arguing for inequality with that.

I only want Muslim women to open their eyes up and see how ridiculous they have been tricked into believing poor beliefs. I would never force them not to wear, but I respect a companies decision on its dress code, why wont you?

You're opposed to dress codes at school though.

Yes I am, due to children learning better without constraints

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

You're opposed to dress codes at school though.

Yes I am, due to children learning better without constraints

How is wearing a school uniform leading to constraint?

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:

I thought all religions were rooted in fear...the wrath of God etc.

They generally are, because when many of them formed, they could not understand natural disasters Syl.

Its why religion is so wrong, as they are often based on vengeful deities

They are often cruel and I fail to see how anything like that should warrant people to love them, but its out of fear, that they do love them.

If the bible was taken literally people would be slaughtering each other left right and centre.
I tend to agree though with what you say re religion, it is based on fear, but it also brings comfort in some way to billions, so it obviously brings peace as well as war.

People have to learn new stuff at work, so are they also constrained by having to adhere to a dress code?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Yes I am, due to children learning better without constraints

How is wearing a school uniform leading to constraint?

Because they are more relaxed in their own clothes.

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

How is wearing a school uniform leading to constraint?

Because they are more relaxed in their own clothes.

So you want people who work to not be relaxed?

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

How is wearing a school uniform leading to constraint?

Because they are more relaxed in their own clothes.

Well many Muslim women are more relaxed wearing a headscarf in work.....but you don't support that.

Syl wrote:

Thorin wrote:


They generally are, because when many of them formed, they could not understand natural disasters Syl.

Its why religion is so wrong, as they are often based on vengeful deities

They are often cruel and I fail to see how anything like that should warrant people to love them, but its out of fear, that they do love them.

If the bible was taken literally people would be slaughtering each other left right and centre.
I tend to agree though with what you say re religion, it is based on fear, but it also brings comfort in some way to billions, so it obviously brings peace as well as war.

They did for centuries and people were slaughtering countless people Syl.
The only comfort it brings, is to make people believe, there is life after death.
To me, it ends when you die, I accept that and hence have no fear.
Hence why we should enjoy life.
No intelligent being would be so negatively emotive and require such attention.
In fact, something so intelligent would not be effected by vengeance or violence

Syl wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Because they are more relaxed in their own clothes.

Well many Muslim women are more relaxed wearing a headscarf in work.....but you don't support that.

I am sure they do, but as I said to Eddie, kids dont have a choice, they have to go to school
As an adult, you can choose the job you wish to do, can you not?

I would feel more comfortable in shorts, but I cant wear them in work.

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:

Well many Muslim women are more relaxed wearing a headscarf in work.....but you don't support that.

I am sure they do, but as I said to Eddie, kids dont have a choice, they have to go to school
As an adult, you can choose the job you wish to do, can you not?

I would feel more comfortable in shorts, but I cant wear them in work.

There's not so much choice around these days really, and if someone has to make a choice to do a job they enjoy whilst not wearing something which makes them feel good, it's not much of a choice.

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:

If the bible was taken literally people would be slaughtering each other left right and centre.
I tend to agree though with what you say re religion, it is based on fear, but it also brings comfort in some way to billions, so it obviously brings peace as well as war.

They did for centuries and people were slaughtering countless people Syl.
The only comfort it brings, is to make people believe, there is life after death.
To me, it ends when you die, I accept that and hence have no fear.
Hence why we should enjoy life.
No intelligent being would be so negatively emotive and require such attention.
In fact, something so intelligent would not be effected by vengeance or violence

You believe what you want, and let others believe what they want.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


I am sure they do, but as I said to Eddie, kids dont have a choice, they have to go to school
As an adult, you can choose the job you wish to do, can you not?

I would feel more comfortable in shorts, but I cant wear them in work.

There's not so much choice around these days really, and if someone has to make a choice to do a job they enjoy whilst not wearing something which makes them feel good, it's not much of a choice.

Like I said, I would prefer to wear trainers and shorts, but I cannot.

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:

Well many Muslim women are more relaxed wearing a headscarf in work.....but you don't support that.

I am sure they do, but as I said to Eddie, kids dont have a choice, they have to go to school
As an adult, you can choose the job you wish to do, can you not?

I would feel more comfortable in shorts, but I cant wear them in work.

Oh I don't know, they are getting more acceptable in the work place....sadly.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


They did for centuries and people were slaughtering countless people Syl.
The only comfort it brings, is to make people believe, there is life after death.
To me, it ends when you die, I accept that and hence have no fear.
Hence why we should enjoy life.
No intelligent being would be so negatively emotive and require such attention.
In fact, something so intelligent would not be effected by vengeance or violence

You believe what you want, and let others believe what they want.

So are you going to ban all preaching then by religious people?

As that is what you would need to do, for the above to happen.

I don't think that schoolchildren are necessarily more relaxed in their own clothes anyway. They might prefer to not have to think about what to wear in case they choose something which isn't "trendy", and they might not want to keep having to change what they wear in case anyone thinks they only wear the same old thing, or they might not have many clothes. I was pleased we had a uniform.

At least when one is an adult, one probably has more income to buy their own clothes.

Syl wrote:

Thorin wrote:


I am sure they do, but as I said to Eddie, kids dont have a choice, they have to go to school
As an adult, you can choose the job you wish to do, can you not?

I would feel more comfortable in shorts, but I cant wear them in work.

Oh I don't know, they are getting more acceptable in the work place....sadly.

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

You believe what you want, and let others believe what they want.

So are you going to ban all preaching then by religious people?

As that is what you would need to do, for the above to happen.

Preaching where? You have the choice to walk away and not listen.

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

There's not so much choice around these days really, and if someone has to make a choice to do a job they enjoy whilst not wearing something which makes them feel good, it's not much of a choice.

Like I said, I would prefer to wear trainers and shorts, but I cannot.

Well there is a limit, and you wouldn't want to frighten your co-workers.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


So are you going to ban all preaching then by religious people?

As that is what you would need to do, for the above to happen.

Preaching where? You have the choice to walk away and not listen.

How can a child walk away from his own parents?

Or in school?

Or when its played over speakers, like it is in some Muslim countries?

So if people are allowed to preach their views, I can certainly speak mine.

How else do you think people are converted half the time to religion?

By preaching