Hillsborough debate
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Re: Hillsborough debate
I've never understood what the cover up re Hillsborough was. It was quite clear that a gate was opened because the crowd outside was building up. Then the fans headed for the nearest entrance to the pitch, which was the tunnel to the middle pens. They should have been directed elsewhere really, but where was the cover up?
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Raggamuffin wrote:I've never understood what the cover up re Hillsborough was. It was quite clear that a gate was opened because the crowd outside was building up. Then the fans headed for the nearest entrance to the pitch, which was the tunnel to the middle pens. They should have been directed elsewhere really, but where was the cover up?
Its all bull Rags, there were many trying to tailgate and get in without tickets, and the Police were concerned of the crush at the gates because of these fans. I have seen it with my own eyes at England games with scouse supporters.
Its always mainly them trying to get in without paying, thieving and doing runners from Restaurants.
Even those running the gates on the day elude to this happening, but because nobody can verify the numbers, it was whitewashed. There is no doubt the Police made errors and hold responsibility, but the real culprits who caused this the ticket-less fans, are scum in my book. They know who they are and sit in silence in shame.
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Thorin wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:I've never understood what the cover up re Hillsborough was. It was quite clear that a gate was opened because the crowd outside was building up. Then the fans headed for the nearest entrance to the pitch, which was the tunnel to the middle pens. They should have been directed elsewhere really, but where was the cover up?
Its all bull Rags, there were many trying to tailgate and get in without tickets, and the Police were concerned of the crush at the gates because of these fans. I have seen it with my own eyes at England games with scouse supporters.
Its always mainly them trying to get in without paying, thieving and doing runners from Restaurants.
Even those running the gates on the day elude to this happening, but because nobody can verify the numbers, it was whitewashed. There is no doubt the Police made errors and hold responsibility, but the real culprits who caused this the ticket-less fans, are scum in my book. They know who they are and sit in silence in shame.
How do they know who had tickets or not? I presume they weren't checking tickets when the gate was opened.
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Raggamuffin wrote:Thorin wrote:
Its all bull Rags, there were many trying to tailgate and get in without tickets, and the Police were concerned of the crush at the gates because of these fans. I have seen it with my own eyes at England games with scouse supporters.
Its always mainly them trying to get in without paying, thieving and doing runners from Restaurants.
Even those running the gates on the day elude to this happening, but because nobody can verify the numbers, it was whitewashed. There is no doubt the Police made errors and hold responsibility, but the real culprits who caused this the ticket-less fans, are scum in my book. They know who they are and sit in silence in shame.
How do they know who had tickets or not? I presume they weren't checking tickets when the gate was opened.
Look up Stephen Copeland, who was running one turnstiles Rags and just ask many Non-Scouse supporter who has been to many England games
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Re: Hillsborough debate
To give you some idea Rags, what Scouse supporters are like and why most clubs cannot stand a core of their supporters .
Liverpool fans are good sportsmanship
For some reason, the press are presenting Liverpool fans as a brilliant example of sportsmanship. That they represent the English game with aplomb. What parallel universe have I slipped into?
These Liverpool fans got English football banned from Europe for 6 years after their behaviour caused the death of 39 Juventus fans at Heysel.
These Liverpool fans robbed off their own in Istanbul. Stealing tickets, travelling with fake tickets and jibbing through the barriers to see Liverpool in the 2005 Champions League final.
These Liverpool fans repeated the trick in 2007 at the Champions League Final in Athens. Selling their own fake tickets for £1,000. Travelling in their masses without tickets causing unsafe over crowding within the police cordon’s and fan zones.
Liverpool fan’s did similar at the Emirates Stadium during the Champions League Quarter Final in 2008. Every club throughout the Premier League will have their own stories of too many Liverpool fans turning up, fake tickets, and the lack of concern many Scousers have for their own fans safety. It seems to a Scouser, it is more important to see a game of football then be an honest, upstanding citizen. Their reckless behaviour is an accident waiting to happen.
And who can forget the Michael Shield’s incident. Whilst Shields has been correctly released from a jail after the murder of a Bulgarian man before a Liverpool away game, there is a murderer out there who was happy with his own mate taking the fall. Happy someone else taking a 10 year sentence for his crime. Happy for a fellow human being to be banged up abroad whilst he sits in Liverpool, probably still going to games, without a care in the world.
These incidents are not the only ones which highlight how poor the Liverpool fans are. Whilst the world mourns those who lost their lives at Hillsborough, Liverpool fans quite happily sing and gloat about the Munich disaster.
When Alan Smith broke his leg in 2006, those kind hearted Liverpool fans threw beer cans at the ambulance, blocked its progress, and attempted to turn it over. Nice men then.
Even last week, whilst Manchester City respectful remembered those who lost their life at Hillsborough, them Scouser’s attacked a coach, bricking the windows. The coach was reported to have had a ‘Justice for the 96’ flag in its window. What respect the Liverpool fans have for their fellow fans.
Liverpool fans are certainly not good sportsmen, they are the shame of English football.
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Raggamuffin wrote:I've never understood what the cover up re Hillsborough was. It was quite clear that a gate was opened because the crowd outside was building up. Then the fans headed for the nearest entrance to the pitch, which was the tunnel to the middle pens. They should have been directed elsewhere really, but where was the cover up?
The beginning of the cover up was Duckenfield lied and said the fans forced the gate, they didn't- he ordered it opened.
When the crowd surged in they went straight ahead into the tunnel, the tunnel should have been closed as it led only to an already overcrowded pen. Following on the cover up went on to blame ticketless drunken fans all of which was proven to be false by the independent panel investigation. This led to the inquest verdicts of accidental death being overturned and the correct verdict of unlawful killing. The files are with the CPS and it is likely criminal charges will follow.
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Tommy Monk wrote:Tommy Monk wrote:A primary school headteacher receiving death threats from Muslim parents has been forced to work from home amid fears of a "Trojan Horse" plot to ' Islamicise ' the school.
Clarksfield Primary School headteacher Trish O'Donnell is said to have endured "harassment and intimidation" and "aggressive verbal abuse" from parents promoting Muslim values.
In one case, she had a threat to blow up her car, according to a report by Oldham council.
She said in the correspondence that she believed her position was untenable and a "Trojan horse" agenda was underway.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/headteacher-forced-work-home-after-9850625
This is the topic of thread.
Tommy, my apologies but won't have history rewritten and the truth overlooked.
Justice for the 96
YNWA
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Miffs2 wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:I've never understood what the cover up re Hillsborough was. It was quite clear that a gate was opened because the crowd outside was building up. Then the fans headed for the nearest entrance to the pitch, which was the tunnel to the middle pens. They should have been directed elsewhere really, but where was the cover up?
The beginning of the cover up was Duckenfield lied and said the fans forced the gate, they didn't- he ordered it opened.
When the crowd surged in they went straight ahead into the tunnel, the tunnel should have been closed as it led only to an already overcrowded pen. Following on the cover up went on to blame ticketless drunken fans all of which was proven to be false by the independent panel investigation. This led to the inquest verdicts of accidental death being overturned and the correct verdict of unlawful killing. The files are with the CPS and it is likely criminal charges will follow.
It was not proven false, which shows you have not read the inquest.
What was not proven was the quantity of those who got in without tickets.
It was certainly proven ticket-less fans got in and on track record this happens all the time
The Police ordered the turnstile to open up in areas, where there was a fear of a crush, of which as stated those running the turnstiles coborate. The Police, never should have let them in, which then led to the extra mass of supporters, which surge onto the rest of the crowd. Nothing worse than people who have never been on the terraces or experince this kind of crush everytime they went togames, trying to claim ticket-less fans were innocent
Again the Police are accountable for the errors they made that day, but the scum who got in without tickets, have blood on their hands and have gotten away free from what they often do all the time
Liverpool fans are good sportsmanship
For some reason, the press are presenting Liverpool fans as a brilliant example of sportsmanship. That they represent the English game with aplomb. What parallel universe have I slipped into?
These Liverpool fans got English football banned from Europe for 6 years after their behaviour caused the death of 39 Juventus fans at Heysel.
These Liverpool fans robbed off their own in Istanbul. Stealing tickets, travelling with fake tickets and jibbing through the barriers to see Liverpool in the 2005 Champions League final.
These Liverpool fans repeated the trick in 2007 at the Champions League Final in Athens. Selling their own fake tickets for £1,000. Travelling in their masses without tickets causing unsafe over crowding within the police cordon’s and fan zones.
Liverpool fan’s did similar at the Emirates Stadium during the Champions League Quarter Final in 2008. Every club throughout the Premier League will have their own stories of too many Liverpool fans turning up, fake tickets, and the lack of concern many Scousers have for their own fans safety. It seems to a Scouser, it is more important to see a game of football then be an honest, upstanding citizen. Their reckless behaviour is an accident waiting to happen.
And who can forget the Michael Shield’s incident. Whilst Shields has been correctly released from a jail after the murder of a Bulgarian man before a Liverpool away game, there is a murderer out there who was happy with his own mate taking the fall. Happy someone else taking a 10 year sentence for his crime. Happy for a fellow human being to be banged up abroad whilst he sits in Liverpool, probably still going to games, without a care in the world.
These incidents are not the only ones which highlight how poor the Liverpool fans are. Whilst the world mourns those who lost their lives at Hillsborough, Liverpool fans quite happily sing and gloat about the Munich disaster.
When Alan Smith broke his leg in 2006, those kind hearted Liverpool fans threw beer cans at the ambulance, blocked its progress, and attempted to turn it over. Nice men then.
Even last week, whilst Manchester City respectful remembered those who lost their life at Hillsborough, them Scouser’s attacked a coach, bricking the windows. The coach was reported to have had a ‘Justice for the 96’ flag in its window. What respect the Liverpool fans have for their fellow fans.
Liverpool fans are certainly not good sportsmen, they are the shame of English football.
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Miffs2 wrote:Tommy Monk wrote:
This is the topic of thread.
Tommy, my apologies but won't have history rewritten and the truth overlooked.
Justice for the 96
YNWA
So there has never been a miscarriage of justice, how bloody naive you are at times Nems
What justice? Those scouse scum supporters who caused this have been able to walk free
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Thorin wrote:Miffs2 wrote:
Tommy, my apologies but won't have history rewritten and the truth overlooked.
Justice for the 96
YNWA
What justice? Those scouse scum supporters who caused this have been able to walk free
The justice that will come when bastards like Duckenfield, Bettison and Middup are behind bars.
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Miffs2 wrote:Thorin wrote:
What justice? Those scouse scum supporters who caused this have been able to walk free
The justice that will come when bastards like Duckenfield, Bettison and Middup are behind bars.
So you blame Police for errors and lying, which is fine, but exonerate the guilty party
Countless scouse supporters, who without tickets, caused this tragedy
Who have a long track record of going to games without tickets, thieving, do runners without paying, and jibbing through the turnstiles.
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Thorin wrote:Miffs2 wrote:
The justice that will come when bastards like Duckenfield, Bettison and Middup are behind bars.
So you blame Police for errors and lying, which is fine, but exonerate the guilty party
Countless scouse supporters, who without tickets, caused this tragedy
Who have a long track record of going to games without tickets, thieving, do runners without paying, and jibbing through the turnstiles.
No. You are wrong.
On the occasion of the Hillsborough disaster the fans were in no way to blame.
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/determinations-and-findings-of-the-hillsborough-inquests
Question Question 7: Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?
No
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Miffs2 wrote:Thorin wrote:
So you blame Police for errors and lying, which is fine, but exonerate the guilty party
Countless scouse supporters, who without tickets, caused this tragedy
Who have a long track record of going to games without tickets, thieving, do runners without paying, and jibbing through the turnstiles.
No. You are wrong.
On the occasion of the Hillsborough disaster the fans were in no way to blame.
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/determinations-and-findings-of-the-hillsborough-inquests
Question Question 7: Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?
No
No I am not wrong and I have read the investigation
That speaks of drunken behaviour, not jibbing
So try reading properly, what you are presenting and the inquest was a sham
All they need to have done was gone to many Liverpool away games or England games to see for themselves what happens all the time
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Thorin wrote:Miffs2 wrote:
No. You are wrong.
On the occasion of the Hillsborough disaster the fans were in no way to blame.
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/determinations-and-findings-of-the-hillsborough-inquests
Question Question 7: Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?
No
No I am not wrong and I have read the investigation
That speaks of drunken behaviour, not jibbing
So try reading properly, what you are presenting and the inquest was a sham
All they need to have done was gone to many Liverpool away games or England games to see for themselves what happens all the time
No you are wrong. On the occasion of the Hillsborough disaster the fans were not to blame. The original inquest was a sham with the 3.15 cut off etc but the correct verdict of unlawful killing is in place.
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Miffs2 wrote:Thorin wrote:
No I am not wrong and I have read the investigation
That speaks of drunken behaviour, not jibbing
So try reading properly, what you are presenting and the inquest was a sham
All they need to have done was gone to many Liverpool away games or England games to see for themselves what happens all the time
No you are wrong. On the occasion of the Hillsborough disaster the fans were not to blame. The original inquest was a sham with the 3.15 cut off etc but the correct verdict of unlawful killing is in place.
No this inquest was a sham.
You have no comprehension what a substantial core of these supporters are like and the fans were to blame
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Thorin wrote:Miffs2 wrote:
No you are wrong. On the occasion of the Hillsborough disaster the fans were not to blame. The original inquest was a sham with the 3.15 cut off etc but the correct verdict of unlawful killing is in place.
No this inquest was a sham.
You have no comprehension what a substantial core of these supporters are like and the fans were to blame
Nonsense, the second inquest was no sham.
You not liking Liverpool fans is clouding your judgement.
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Miffs2 wrote:Thorin wrote:
No this inquest was a sham.
You have no comprehension what a substantial core of these supporters are like and the fans were to blame
Nonsense, the second inquest was no sham.
You not liking Liverpool fans is clouding your judgement.
No its more like me knowing as many other fans do, what a substantial amount of Liverpool supporters are like. The majority of their fans are okay and have many friends who are Liverpool fans, who are also ashamed to go to games, with the substantial core I speak of.
So you are wrong on all fronts.
Like I say, when you have been to many games like myself and others, we understand what exactly happened that day. I have even showed where they have nearly caused other similar disasters, getting in on fake tickets and jibbing, but you just want to close your ears, and go "la, la, la, la, I'm not listening"
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Thorin wrote:Miffs2 wrote:
Nonsense, the second inquest was no sham.
You not liking Liverpool fans is clouding your judgement.
No its more like me knowing as many other fans do, what a substantial amount of Liverpool supporters are like. The majority of their fans are okay and have many friends who are Liverpool fans, who are also ashamed to go to games, with the substantial core I speak of.
So you are wrong on all fronts.
Like I say, when you have been to many games like myself and others, we understand what exactly happened that day. I have even showed where they have nearly caused other similar disasters, getting in on fake tickets and jibbing, but you just want to close your ears, and go "la, la, la, la, I'm not listening"
Yeah well I bow to your superior knowledge of badly behaved yobs at football matches
But it matters not what you think. The verdict was unlawful killing, the fans were exonerated. The guilty may yet pay.
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Miffs2 wrote:Thorin wrote:
No its more like me knowing as many other fans do, what a substantial amount of Liverpool supporters are like. The majority of their fans are okay and have many friends who are Liverpool fans, who are also ashamed to go to games, with the substantial core I speak of.
So you are wrong on all fronts.
Like I say, when you have been to many games like myself and others, we understand what exactly happened that day. I have even showed where they have nearly caused other similar disasters, getting in on fake tickets and jibbing, but you just want to close your ears, and go "la, la, la, la, I'm not listening"
Yeah well I bow to your superior knowledge of badly behaved yobs at football matches
But it matters not what you think. The verdict was unlawful killing, the fans were exonerated. The guilty may yet pay.
It matters to many football fans that know the truth
Also how pathetic and immature to turn this onto me, but I expect nothing less from a poor apologist for defending scum. Yes I was once a thug and live with that fact, which I have grown out of, but this is telling, the fact I used to have punch ups, is far removed from some of these thieving scum. Maybe its time you learnt to grow up.
Like I said, those who are guilty, the ticket-less fans have sat all these years and said nothing and have even gone on to cause more problems, doing exactly the same
You sit at home in your bubble, not understanding the real world.
Go to actual games like I said, then you can debate me on the matter.
Just because there was a sham inquest, which set out to find blame, anyone, to throw off tract the victims families, does not mean, they have seen justice. Those guilty, have yet again gotten away with this crime, the ticket-less fans
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Thorin wrote:Miffs2 wrote:
Yeah well I bow to your superior knowledge of badly behaved yobs at football matches
But it matters not what you think. The verdict was unlawful killing, the fans were exonerated. The guilty may yet pay.
It matters to many football fans that know the truth
Also how pathetic and immature to turn this onto me, but I expect nothing less from a poor apologist for defending scum. Yes I was once a thug and live with that fact, which I have grown out of, but this is telling, the fact I used to have punch ups, is far removed from some of these thieving scum. Maybe its time you learnt to grow up.
Like I said, those who are guilty, the ticket-less fans have sat all these years and said nothing and have even gone on to cause more problems, doing exactly the same
You sit at home in your bubble, not understanding the real world.
Go to actual games like I said, then you can debate me on the matter.
Just because there was a sham inquest, which set out to find blame, anyone, to throw off tract the victims families, does not mean, they have seen justice. Those guilty, have yet again gotten away with this crime, the ticket-less fans
Many football fans know the truth?!
What do they know that wasn't examined in the inquiry?
I'm not turning anything on to you, you need to remember if you post personal info then it's out there forever.
Go to actual games?
you are generalising again! On the occasion of Hillsborough the fans were cleared of any wrong doing.
I won't address the rest of your post as its insults. A bit stupid to moan at being insulted then insult back!
As it was said on the day
"The bizzies fucked it up" yes they did and then lied and lied to cover it up.
If you can post one bit of sourced EVIDENCE that shows different then go for it.
But remember "any football fan knows" or 'so and so said' is not evidence.
JUSTICE FOR THE 96
YNWA
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Miffs2 wrote:Thorin wrote:
It matters to many football fans that know the truth
Also how pathetic and immature to turn this onto me, but I expect nothing less from a poor apologist for defending scum. Yes I was once a thug and live with that fact, which I have grown out of, but this is telling, the fact I used to have punch ups, is far removed from some of these thieving scum. Maybe its time you learnt to grow up.
Like I said, those who are guilty, the ticket-less fans have sat all these years and said nothing and have even gone on to cause more problems, doing exactly the same
You sit at home in your bubble, not understanding the real world.
Go to actual games like I said, then you can debate me on the matter.
Just because there was a sham inquest, which set out to find blame, anyone, to throw off tract the victims families, does not mean, they have seen justice. Those guilty, have yet again gotten away with this crime, the ticket-less fans
Many football fans know the truth?!
What do they know that wasn't examined in the inquiry?
I'm not turning anything on to you, you need to remember if you post personal info then it's out there forever.
Go to actual games?
you are generalising again! On the occasion of Hillsborough the fans were cleared of any wrong doing.
I won't address the rest of your post as its insults. A bit stupid to moan at being insulted then insult back!
As it was said on the day
"The bizzies fucked it up" yes they did and then lied and lied to cover it up.
If you can post one bit of sourced EVIDENCE that shows different then go for it.
But remember "any football fan knows" or 'so and so said' is not evidence.
JUSTICE FOR THE 96
YNWA
Yes, many football fans know the truth about a substantial core of scum that follow Liverpool
I know plenty that was whitewashed from the inquiry, especially the fans that got in without tickets
Ticketless fans who “turned up late” caused the crush at Hillsborough which led to 96 supporters deaths, a turnstile operator claimed. Stephen Copeland said fans prior to 2pm came “early enough” but “people that came last, without tickets, crushed them”.
Mr Copeland, who was 19 at the time, said ”it went from calm to mayhem” after around 2pm.
He said until Gate C was opened by police he “tended to fear for my life” and believed “the turnstile was coming down.”
Mr Copeland said he saw people out of breath, who were getting crushed, “scared and fearful”.
He said: “The turnstiles felt like they were coming down. I just kept my foot on that pedal and I got them through as fast as I possibly could.”
No, you are turning this onto me quite pathetically so, as you are being emotional to me not agreeing with you, because that is the tactic of an immature person, born without a clue on events. That sits back and reads them, not ever understanding them. Its acceptable for you of course to cast the Mccanns as guilty without any evidence and yet I have evidence on the ticket-lee supporters, and you dont like these facts and turn the debate onto me. Happy with that.
Its called misdirection, as what I did, has no bearing on the discussion, of which I am used to years of your underhanded bitchiness, when a debate does not go your way. Where your only reason here is to slag off the likes of people you do not like, ie sassy/veya/wolf etc. Not concerned, as I say, I expect such antics from a poor apologist as yourself, who defends scum. So fine, you want to act childish, I am quite happy, to easily throw back anything your can throw this way
Yes go to games, so you can see for yourself time and time again Liverpool fans do what I have shown to you, they do all the time. Then you might actually stop acting like a child and understand you have not got the first clue what you are talking about
I have not discounted the errors and blame by the Police also, of which they also hold responsibility, but the action of the ticket-less fans, led to the disaster that day. If they had not been there, this would of never happened.
The only justice will come, is when they arrest the scum ticket-less fans that caused this
You had to spoil the debate, because you do not like people challenging your views.
Well tough shit, get used to the fact, many people do not share or your views or believe there was any justice in the inquiry
How about Justice for Heysel?
The pathetic amount of scouse scum charged, when it should have gone into the hundreds.
How many died and were injured that day, through being crushed Nems?
Like I said, grow up, at your age, you should have by now and even more so, go out into the real world, not the bubble you live in.
I suggest you read again
Liverpool fans are good sportsmanship
For some reason, the press are presenting Liverpool fans as a brilliant example of sportsmanship. That they represent the English game with aplomb. What parallel universe have I slipped into?
These Liverpool fans got English football banned from Europe for 6 years after their behaviour caused the death of 39 Juventus fans at Heysel.
These Liverpool fans robbed off their own in Istanbul. Stealing tickets, travelling with fake tickets and jibbing through the barriers to see Liverpool in the 2005 Champions League final.
These Liverpool fans repeated the trick in 2007 at the Champions League Final in Athens. Selling their own fake tickets for £1,000. Travelling in their masses without tickets causing unsafe over crowding within the police cordon’s and fan zones.
Liverpool fan’s did similar at the Emirates Stadium during the Champions League Quarter Final in 2008. Every club throughout the Premier League will have their own stories of too many Liverpool fans turning up, fake tickets, and the lack of concern many Scousers have for their own fans safety. It seems to a Scouser, it is more important to see a game of football then be an honest, upstanding citizen. Their reckless behaviour is an accident waiting to happen.
And who can forget the Michael Shield’s incident. Whilst Shields has been correctly released from a jail after the murder of a Bulgarian man before a Liverpool away game, there is a murderer out there who was happy with his own mate taking the fall. Happy someone else taking a 10 year sentence for his crime. Happy for a fellow human being to be banged up abroad whilst he sits in Liverpool, probably still going to games, without a care in the world.
These incidents are not the only ones which highlight how poor the Liverpool fans are. Whilst the world mourns those who lost their lives at Hillsborough, Liverpool fans quite happily sing and gloat about the Munich disaster.
When Alan Smith broke his leg in 2006, those kind hearted Liverpool fans threw beer cans at the ambulance, blocked its progress, and attempted to turn it over. Nice men then.
Even last week, whilst Manchester City respectful remembered those who lost their life at Hillsborough, them Scouser’s attacked a coach, bricking the windows. The coach was reported to have had a ‘Justice for the 96’ flag in its window. What respect the Liverpool fans have for their fellow fans.
Liverpool fans are certainly not good sportsmen, they are the shame of English football
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Hillsborough debate
Thorin wrote:Miffs2 wrote:
Many football fans know the truth?!
What do they know that wasn't examined in the inquiry?
I'm not turning anything on to you, you need to remember if you post personal info then it's out there forever.
Go to actual games?
you are generalising again! On the occasion of Hillsborough the fans were cleared of any wrong doing.
I won't address the rest of your post as its insults. A bit stupid to moan at being insulted then insult back!
As it was said on the day
"The bizzies fucked it up" yes they did and then lied and lied to cover it up.
If you can post one bit of sourced EVIDENCE that shows different then go for it.
But remember "any football fan knows" or 'so and so said' is not evidence.
JUSTICE FOR THE 96
YNWA
Yes, many football fans know the truth about a substantial core of scum that follow Liverpool
I know plenty that was whitewashed from the inquiry, especially the fans that got in without ticketsTicketless fans who “turned up late” caused the crush at Hillsborough which led to 96 supporters deaths, a turnstile operator claimed. Stephen Copeland said fans prior to 2pm came “early enough” but “people that came last, without tickets, crushed them”.
Mr Copeland, who was 19 at the time, said ”it went from calm to mayhem” after around 2pm.
He said until Gate C was opened by police he “tended to fear for my life” and believed “the turnstile was coming down.”
Mr Copeland said he saw people out of breath, who were getting crushed, “scared and fearful”.
He said: “The turnstiles felt like they were coming down. I just kept my foot on that pedal and I got them through as fast as I possibly could.”
No, you are turning this onto me quite pathetically so, as you are being emotional to me not agreeing with you, because that is the tactic of an immature person, born without a clue on events. That sits back and reads them, not ever understanding them. Its acceptable for you of course to cast the Mccanns as guilty without any evidence and yet I have evidence on the ticket-lee supporters, and you dont like these facts and turn the debate onto me. Happy with that.
Its called misdirection, as what I did, has no bearing on the discussion, of which I am used to years of your underhanded bitchiness, when a debate does not go your way. Where your only reason here is to slag off the likes of people you do not like, ie sassy/veya/wolf etc. Not concerned, as I say, I expect such antics from a poor apologist as yourself, who defends scum. So fine, you want to act childish, I am quite happy, to easily throw back anything your can throw this way
Yes go to games, so you can see for yourself time and time again Liverpool fans do what I have shown to you, they do all the time. Then you might actually stop acting like a child and understand you have not got the first clue what you are talking about
I have not discounted the errors and blame by the Police also, of which they also hold responsibility, but the action of the ticket-less fans, led to the disaster that day. If they had not been there, this would of never happened.
The only justice will come, is when they arrest the scum ticket-less fans that caused this
You had to spoil the debate, because you do not like people challenging your views.
Well tough shit, get used to the fact, many people do not share or your views or believe there was any justice in the inquiry
How about Justice for Heysel?
The pathetic amount of scouse scum charged, when it should have gone into the hundreds.
How many died and were injured that day, through being crushed Nems?
Like I said, grow up, at your age, you should have by now and even more so, go out into the real world, not the bubble you live in.
I suggest you read againLiverpool fans are good sportsmanship
For some reason, the press are presenting Liverpool fans as a brilliant example of sportsmanship. That they represent the English game with aplomb. What parallel universe have I slipped into?
These Liverpool fans got English football banned from Europe for 6 years after their behaviour caused the death of 39 Juventus fans at Heysel.
These Liverpool fans robbed off their own in Istanbul. Stealing tickets, travelling with fake tickets and jibbing through the barriers to see Liverpool in the 2005 Champions League final.
These Liverpool fans repeated the trick in 2007 at the Champions League Final in Athens. Selling their own fake tickets for £1,000. Travelling in their masses without tickets causing unsafe over crowding within the police cordon’s and fan zones.
Liverpool fan’s did similar at the Emirates Stadium during the Champions League Quarter Final in 2008. Every club throughout the Premier League will have their own stories of too many Liverpool fans turning up, fake tickets, and the lack of concern many Scousers have for their own fans safety. It seems to a Scouser, it is more important to see a game of football then be an honest, upstanding citizen. Their reckless behaviour is an accident waiting to happen.
And who can forget the Michael Shield’s incident. Whilst Shields has been correctly released from a jail after the murder of a Bulgarian man before a Liverpool away game, there is a murderer out there who was happy with his own mate taking the fall. Happy someone else taking a 10 year sentence for his crime. Happy for a fellow human being to be banged up abroad whilst he sits in Liverpool, probably still going to games, without a care in the world.
These incidents are not the only ones which highlight how poor the Liverpool fans are. Whilst the world mourns those who lost their lives at Hillsborough, Liverpool fans quite happily sing and gloat about the Munich disaster.
When Alan Smith broke his leg in 2006, those kind hearted Liverpool fans threw beer cans at the ambulance, blocked its progress, and attempted to turn it over. Nice men then.
Even last week, whilst Manchester City respectful remembered those who lost their life at Hillsborough, them Scouser’s attacked a coach, bricking the windows. The coach was reported to have had a ‘Justice for the 96’ flag in its window. What respect the Liverpool fans have for their fellow fans.
Liverpool fans are certainly not good sportsmen, they are the shame of English football
You didn't source Mr Copeland's comments? nor apparently read to the end!
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/turnstile-operator-tells-hillsborough-inquests-7782185
He estimated 150 to 200 fans passed through his turnstile without tickets, tickets for the wrong end, or jumped or “tailgated” in.
However, he said this was a guess, including fans he let in because of the crush, and accepted figures shown by Christopher Williams QC, representing bereaved families, which showed he overestimated this amount by 65%.
You know plenty that was whitewashed from the inquiry? Like?
Im not getting emotional. You are though. You are the one misdirecting. I have repeatedly said regarding Hillsborough the fans were exonerated.
Why drag up the Mcanns or Hysel? Is it because you cant back up or evidence what you claim and so seek to misdirect.
I have asked for the thread to be split. if you want to discuss the McCanns or Hysel or even Michael Shields or Munich start a thread.
You are entitled to your opinion of course you are. But opinion is not fact. Stick to the facts and to the subject. If you cant I wont be shocked.
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Miffs2 wrote:Thorin wrote:
So you blame Police for errors and lying, which is fine, but exonerate the guilty party
Countless scouse supporters, who without tickets, caused this tragedy
Who have a long track record of going to games without tickets, thieving, do runners without paying, and jibbing through the turnstiles.
No. You are wrong.
On the occasion of the Hillsborough disaster the fans were in no way to blame.
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/determinations-and-findings-of-the-hillsborough-inquests
Question Question 7: Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?
No
Why were those metal fences used in the first place? Because fans couldn't be trusted to behave and kept invading the pitch and fighting. In other words, acting like fucking mental retards. Why did people continue to push and push down those tunnels when it was obvious they were full? They couldn't have turned around and stopped pushing or crowding forwards like lemmings? Mistakes were made by police for sure, but those fans have to take some responsibility for their own self serving behaviour.
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Re: Hillsborough debate
HoratioTarr wrote:Miffs2 wrote:
No. You are wrong.
On the occasion of the Hillsborough disaster the fans were in no way to blame.
https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/determinations-and-findings-of-the-hillsborough-inquests
Question Question 7: Was there any behaviour on the part of football supporters which caused or contributed to the dangerous situation at the Leppings Lane turnstiles?
No
Why were those metal fences used in the first place? Because fans couldn't be trusted to behave and kept invading the pitch and fighting. In other words, acting like fucking mental retards. Why did people continue to push and push down those tunnels when it was obvious they were full? They couldn't have turned around and stopped pushing or crowding forwards like lemmings? Mistakes were made by police for sure, but those fans have to take some responsibility for their own self serving behaviour.
What are they responsible for?
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/
read that and then tell me what they could have done.
Miffs2- Forum Detective ????♀️
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Re: Hillsborough debate
I watched this on TV, NOW I HAVE NO AXE TO GRIND but I watched hundreds of fans pressing up against the gate leading to the ground.
Hundreds more were joining them. The policeman on this gate saw the crush was getting dangerous and opened the gate to prevent fans getting injured. How could he know that there was already too many fans in the ground,? no one told him,in my opinion he thought he was preventing a tragedy. The fans that had no tickets were at fault.
That's my honest opinion.
Hundreds more were joining them. The policeman on this gate saw the crush was getting dangerous and opened the gate to prevent fans getting injured. How could he know that there was already too many fans in the ground,? no one told him,in my opinion he thought he was preventing a tragedy. The fans that had no tickets were at fault.
That's my honest opinion.
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Why were so many fans so late for the match anyway? I don't see how anyone could know how many didn't have tickets after the gate was opened because nobody was checking them.
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Miffs2 wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:I've never understood what the cover up re Hillsborough was. It was quite clear that a gate was opened because the crowd outside was building up. Then the fans headed for the nearest entrance to the pitch, which was the tunnel to the middle pens. They should have been directed elsewhere really, but where was the cover up?
The beginning of the cover up was Duckenfield lied and said the fans forced the gate, they didn't- he ordered it opened.
When the crowd surged in they went straight ahead into the tunnel, the tunnel should have been closed as it led only to an already overcrowded pen. Following on the cover up went on to blame ticketless drunken fans all of which was proven to be false by the independent panel investigation. This led to the inquest verdicts of accidental death being overturned and the correct verdict of unlawful killing. The files are with the CPS and it is likely criminal charges will follow.
I'm not sure I'd call that a cover up really. It was one person claiming that he wasn't to blame.
Mistakes were made, I agree, but the idea of opening the gate was to alleviate the pressure outside, which was building up. It's not as if someone decided to open the gate without caring about people getting crushed - it just didn't occur to anyone. Perhaps the police should have just told the fans outside they would have to go home or something. Nobody thought of the possibility of everyone going straight into the tunnel. There must have been some pushing in the tunnel mustn't there?
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Miffs2 wrote:HoratioTarr wrote:
Why were those metal fences used in the first place? Because fans couldn't be trusted to behave and kept invading the pitch and fighting. In other words, acting like fucking mental retards. Why did people continue to push and push down those tunnels when it was obvious they were full? They couldn't have turned around and stopped pushing or crowding forwards like lemmings? Mistakes were made by police for sure, but those fans have to take some responsibility for their own self serving behaviour.
What are they responsible for?
http://hillsborough.independent.gov.uk/report/
read that and then tell me what they could have done.
Disasters like this are made up of a series of incidents, not one single event.
The crushing was most severe when Tottenham Hotspur scored a goal three to four minutes into the game and fans entering pushed forward. One supporter described how 'people were passing out and having difficulty breathing, people were getting hysterical, shouting and screaming'.[7]
"As I entered the tunnel I noted that the crowd was back up the tunnel. I believed this was the only way onto the terraces, not having seen any other signs directing otherwise. I therefore, pushed my way through the tunnel not knowing what was ahead of me. I noted that people, generally fathers with young lads or girls, were pushing back out of the tunnel, away from the pitch. At this point there was what I would describe as a bad crush."
Basically, all they really cared about what seeing the game, pushing forwards regardless of the crush. Once you got into the crush, it was impossible to get out of it. The police communications should have been better organised but then the football club should have sorted that too. The minute you enter a tunnel like that and see it's crammed with people do you continue to charge and push into it? Don't you think to yourself, there are people screaming here and it's rammed. Perhaps I should stop pushing and pushing forwards and back off? But no, on and on they came like a mindless mob. Those who died were mostly at the front of the melee. Those who came behind relentlessly pushing and shoving should take some responsibility. Were they human beings with brains, or dumb cattle?
I've only ever been to two footballs matches and I hated the experience. The pushing and shoving, the pissing on the terraces and shouting and swearing and aggression. It was scary.
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Miffs2 wrote:Thorin wrote:
Yes, many football fans know the truth about a substantial core of scum that follow Liverpool
I know plenty that was whitewashed from the inquiry, especially the fans that got in without tickets
No, you are turning this onto me quite pathetically so, as you are being emotional to me not agreeing with you, because that is the tactic of an immature person, born without a clue on events. That sits back and reads them, not ever understanding them. Its acceptable for you of course to cast the Mccanns as guilty without any evidence and yet I have evidence on the ticket-lee supporters, and you dont like these facts and turn the debate onto me. Happy with that.
Its called misdirection, as what I did, has no bearing on the discussion, of which I am used to years of your underhanded bitchiness, when a debate does not go your way. Where your only reason here is to slag off the likes of people you do not like, ie sassy/veya/wolf etc. Not concerned, as I say, I expect such antics from a poor apologist as yourself, who defends scum. So fine, you want to act childish, I am quite happy, to easily throw back anything your can throw this way
Yes go to games, so you can see for yourself time and time again Liverpool fans do what I have shown to you, they do all the time. Then you might actually stop acting like a child and understand you have not got the first clue what you are talking about
I have not discounted the errors and blame by the Police also, of which they also hold responsibility, but the action of the ticket-less fans, led to the disaster that day. If they had not been there, this would of never happened.
The only justice will come, is when they arrest the scum ticket-less fans that caused this
You had to spoil the debate, because you do not like people challenging your views.
Well tough shit, get used to the fact, many people do not share or your views or believe there was any justice in the inquiry
How about Justice for Heysel?
The pathetic amount of scouse scum charged, when it should have gone into the hundreds.
How many died and were injured that day, through being crushed Nems?
Like I said, grow up, at your age, you should have by now and even more so, go out into the real world, not the bubble you live in.
I suggest you read again
You didn't source Mr Copeland's comments? nor apparently read to the end!
http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/news/turnstile-operator-tells-hillsborough-inquests-7782185
He estimated 150 to 200 fans passed through his turnstile without tickets, tickets for the wrong end, or jumped or “tailgated” in.
However, he said this was a guess, including fans he let in because of the crush, and accepted figures shown by Christopher Williams QC, representing bereaved families, which showed he overestimated this amount by 65%.
You know plenty that was whitewashed from the inquiry? Like?
Im not getting emotional. You are though. You are the one misdirecting. I have repeatedly said regarding Hillsborough the fans were exonerated.
Why drag up the Mcanns or Hysel? Is it because you cant back up or evidence what you claim and so seek to misdirect.
I have asked for the thread to be split. if you want to discuss the McCanns or Hysel or even Michael Shields or Munich start a thread.
You are entitled to your opinion of course you are. But opinion is not fact. Stick to the facts and to the subject. If you cant I wont be shocked.
How is that not sourcing properly?
As I already stated the numbers are disputed, not the fact that fans got in without tickets, of which you denied.
Yes you are emotional because you tried poorly to go off things I have done.
Your view to the fans being exonerated is based off 12 people, again none of which have a clue as to what a substantial number of scouse fans are like
I bring up the Mccans, as a fine example where they have not been convicted of any crime, but you believe they are guilty of murdering their own child
As to Hysel, this proves again where people have been killed at the hands of scouse fans
I have produced so much evidence, you keep burying your head in the and and continue to defend the scum
No we are talking about how constantly its Liverpool fans that cause these same problems with no tickets
How is it fact, based off the view of 12 people?
That is not fact, but a verdict, which can change, as it has changed once already
So how about you answer the points you have constantly avoided
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Re: Hillsborough debate
nicko wrote:I watched this on TV, NOW I HAVE NO AXE TO GRIND but I watched hundreds of fans pressing up against the gate leading to the ground.
Hundreds more were joining them. The policeman on this gate saw the crush was getting dangerous and opened the gate to prevent fans getting injured. How could he know that there was already too many fans in the ground,? no one told him,in my opinion he thought he was preventing a tragedy. The fans that had no tickets were at fault.
That's my honest opinion.
+1
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Raggamuffin wrote:Miffs2 wrote:
The beginning of the cover up was Duckenfield lied and said the fans forced the gate, they didn't- he ordered it opened.
When the crowd surged in they went straight ahead into the tunnel, the tunnel should have been closed as it led only to an already overcrowded pen. Following on the cover up went on to blame ticketless drunken fans all of which was proven to be false by the independent panel investigation. This led to the inquest verdicts of accidental death being overturned and the correct verdict of unlawful killing. The files are with the CPS and it is likely criminal charges will follow.
I'm not sure I'd call that a cover up really. It was one person claiming that he wasn't to blame.
Mistakes were made, I agree, but the idea of opening the gate was to alleviate the pressure outside, which was building up. It's not as if someone decided to open the gate without caring about people getting crushed - it just didn't occur to anyone. Perhaps the police should have just told the fans outside they would have to go home or something. Nobody thought of the possibility of everyone going straight into the tunnel. There must have been some pushing in the tunnel mustn't there?
The police are paid to help out at these events by the Football club. So they're not going to tell people to go home. The club would have issued instructions and the police are paid to see it all goes off smoothly. The last thing they'd want to do is cause aggro by telling people they can't go into the match. Like you say, it wasn't done deliberately. It was just a series of terrible mistakes.
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Re: Hillsborough debate
HoratioTarr wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:
I'm not sure I'd call that a cover up really. It was one person claiming that he wasn't to blame.
Mistakes were made, I agree, but the idea of opening the gate was to alleviate the pressure outside, which was building up. It's not as if someone decided to open the gate without caring about people getting crushed - it just didn't occur to anyone. Perhaps the police should have just told the fans outside they would have to go home or something. Nobody thought of the possibility of everyone going straight into the tunnel. There must have been some pushing in the tunnel mustn't there?
The police are paid to help out at these events by the Football club. So they're not going to tell people to go home. The club would have issued instructions and the police are paid to see it all goes off smoothly. The last thing they'd want to do is cause aggro by telling people they can't go into the match. Like you say, it wasn't done deliberately. It was just a series of terrible mistakes.
But, as you well know with the terraces, the Police ware mainly in front of the stands or on the walkways.
Most fans will go where they please, but the fact is on this day, there was a surge towards the turnstiles, clearly with those without tickets, trying to place the Police in a difficult situation. One that forced their hand. I have seen this happened and experienced scousers do this at England games, where they had no tickets. They are trying to have the gates be open, due to preventing accidents, due to the surge of people. The Police made errors that day and agree with you, but the tickekless fans who created this at the turnstiles and got in, should have been classed as culpable
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Re: Hillsborough debate
HoratioTarr wrote:Raggamuffin wrote:
I'm not sure I'd call that a cover up really. It was one person claiming that he wasn't to blame.
Mistakes were made, I agree, but the idea of opening the gate was to alleviate the pressure outside, which was building up. It's not as if someone decided to open the gate without caring about people getting crushed - it just didn't occur to anyone. Perhaps the police should have just told the fans outside they would have to go home or something. Nobody thought of the possibility of everyone going straight into the tunnel. There must have been some pushing in the tunnel mustn't there?
The police are paid to help out at these events by the Football club. So they're not going to tell people to go home. The club would have issued instructions and the police are paid to see it all goes off smoothly. The last thing they'd want to do is cause aggro by telling people they can't go into the match. Like you say, it wasn't done deliberately. It was just a series of terrible mistakes.
Aren't they paid to control crowds? If the Football Club wants to hire someone to maximise the number of people at a match, they don't need the police for that.
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Raggamuffin wrote:HoratioTarr wrote:
The police are paid to help out at these events by the Football club. So they're not going to tell people to go home. The club would have issued instructions and the police are paid to see it all goes off smoothly. The last thing they'd want to do is cause aggro by telling people they can't go into the match. Like you say, it wasn't done deliberately. It was just a series of terrible mistakes.
Aren't they paid to control crowds? If the Football Club wants to hire someone to maximise the number of people at a match, they don't need the police for that.
In those days, there was plenty of football hooliganism Rags, hence why there was a bigger Police presence than there is today, but you are right that it should be the job of stewards to control the number of people at matches. Police are needed sometimes to assist the stewards.
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Re: Hillsborough debate
Always been fascinated by hoolganism. Most Americans just don't get that caught up in sports. Maybe it's about something entirely different, just disguising itself as sports fandom.
Re: Hillsborough debate
Ben Reilly wrote:Always been fascinated by hoolganism. Most Americans just don't get that caught up in sports. Maybe it's about something entirely different, just disguising itself as sports fandom.
You should read one of the better books on the topic Ben
Steaming In: The Classic Account of Life on the Football Terraces
Colin Ward spent much of the 1970s and 1980s on the terraces of football grounds around the country, and following England across the continent. It was a time when passionate support of your team did not mean wearing the team shirt and subscribing to your club's TV station. Instead, it often meant having to defend your part of the stadium against attacks from opposition fans, confrontations with the police, and some decidedly hair-raising encounters.
Although, post-Hillsborough, this seems like a vanished era, the world of the football hooligan still has the power to fascinate. No one has captured the atmosphere with the same authenticity as Ward, who reveals the truth behind the easy headlines: the camaraderie, the unexpected friendships between rival groups, the characters who attained near mythical status. Controversial, provocative and above all brilliantly told, Steaming Intakes the reader right to the heart of the action.
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Steaming-Classic-Account-Football-Terraces/dp/1471126048
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