Theresa May says Britain will be 'poorer' and public services 'weaker' without EU workers

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PM: Britain will be 'poorer' without EU workers
MPs debate Brexit Bill amendments
PM will refuse to offer a compromise to rebel Tory MPs
May hosts Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu
Number 10 expects to win Wednesday's crunch vote
Government will not back any of the amendments
UK travellers could face higher roaming charges post Brexit
Theresa May has insisted that she will be able to get an "early agreement" on the rights of EU citizens living in Britain, as she sought to ease the concerns of rebel Tory MPs.

The Prime Minister said Britain would be "poorer" and public services "weaker" without the contribution of EU workers and that guaranteeing their rights would be a "priority" during the Brexit negotiations.

Speaking in the Commons this afternoon, Mrs May warned potential rebel MPs they will be "obstructing" the will of the people if they vote to amend the Brexit Bill.

She told MPs this afternoon that the "general view" from EU leaders during the summit in Valletta last week was that the UK and EU need to reach an agreement that applies equally to citizens of both parties.

This means that Britain taking a unilateral decision to guarantee EU nationals' status is "not the right way forward", she said.

She told MPs: I have every expectation from the good will I have seen that it will be possible to get an early agreement on this matter to give people the reassurance that they need.

"I have said before, EU citizens living in the UK make a vital contribution to our economy and our society and without them we would be poorer and our public services weaker.

"So we will make securing the reciprocal agreement that will guarantee their status a priority as soon as the negotiations begin, and I want to see this agreed as soon as possible because that is in everyone's interests."

Number 10 expects to win the crunch vote to trigger the formal exit of the EU on Wednesday, despite suggestions that as many as a dozen Tories could rebel and join with other parties to vote for "wrecking" amendments.

The changes MPs are demanding include protection for EU citizens and a vote on the final Brexit deal before it has been agreed.

Speaking this afternoon, Mrs May warned pro-Remain Tories against backing amendments seeking to ensure Parliament gets a say on the "endgame" if Brexit negotiations collapse without a deal.

The Bill is returning to the Commons today for a further three days of debate during committee stage.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/06/brexit-debate-article-50-bill-live/

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:

Yes they can pay rent, I did, when I came back home for two years at my parents.

I never said a full time job is a free ride, there upbringing certainly is.

So your post made no sense then.

Makes perfect sense

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:

Thank you Tommy.
I also agree with a lot of what you have said throughout this thread.

So you agree with introducing an apartheid system that favours people born here over those foreign born?

Explain that to me?

I said my bit early on about this.
I think many jobs should be advertised here first and foremost, the free movement crap that says all jobs advertised in job centres should be advertised throughout the EU is just that...crap.

If jobs cant be filled by the people already resident in the UK and there is no adequate training for them...THEN hire from outside.

STOP denying the people here the chance to work in favour of hiring a foreigner.

STOP rewarding greedy employers a monetary bonus to hire someone from outside the UK.

If 2 people already resident here apply for the job, be they born here or recently arrived...either from inside or outside the EU. give the best qualified suitable applicant the job.

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Going to school is compulsory until someone is 16.

I have absolutely nothing against young people doing further education, I'm just saying they shouldn't be forced to to do so if they prefer to get a job with no further studying or training.

Training to be a doctor isn't at all the same thing.

So you think they should not be forced to attend school as children.
That is what you are saying. They are not adults until they are 18.
Now if you want to bring down the classification of adulthood to 16 that is a different but similar argument.
Training to be a doctor requires an ethos to succeed and commitment.
If now the law states that those not adult have to do further education whilst working or studying, then its clears its to benefit them.

You failed to answer my questions and apologize

What is wrong with you? We're talking about young people who are 16/17, not children who must go to school.

Obviously, if they want to be a doctor, they're not going to leave school at 16 and try to get any other job. I really don't think you have any idea what you're saying.

Thorin wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

So your post made no sense then.

Makes perfect sense

It didn't. You were banging on about free rides when I was talking about someone getting a job without having to do further studying. You're clearly just trolling now, so don't bother.

Syl wrote:

Thorin wrote:


So you agree with introducing an apartheid system that favours people born here over those foreign born?

Explain that to me?

I said my bit early on about this.
I think many jobs should be advertised here first and foremost, the free movement crap that says all jobs advertised in job centres should be advertised throughout the EU is just that...crap.

If jobs cant be filled by the people already resident in the UK and there is no adequate training for them...THEN hire from outside.

STOP denying the people here the chance to work in favour of hiring a foreigner.

STOP rewarding greedy employers a monetary bonus to hire someone from outside the UK.

If 2 people already resident here apply for the job, be they born here or recently arrived...either from inside or outside the EU. give the best qualified suitable applicant the job.

1) Jobs are advertised here as well as abroad.

2) Everyone should be able to apply for jobs

3) Some people here may not be the best people to fill that job vacancy or even have the abilities or qualifications.

4) If the view is one to discriminate, all the world can do the same to our citizens wishing to better their lives abroad. You think because of geography, presents a better argument to employ someone over their ability to perform that job. This is the problem with labels and nationalism. Imaginary boundaries and concepts like a people, whether it be British or English, Allows people to form the most prejudice views. That they should be given more rights than their fellow human beings. Its disgustingly ignorant and prejudiced on every level Syl

5) Nobody is being denied to work. All have the same opportunity to apply for the same jobs. Again this misconception to give priority to those on geography opens the door to forcing an employer to employ someone who is not up to the job

6) Learn to grow up and see past boundaries as you are creating them via geography

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:


So you think they should not be forced to attend school as children.
That is what you are saying. They are not adults until they are 18.
Now if you want to bring down the classification of adulthood to 16 that is a different but similar argument.
Training to be a doctor requires an ethos to succeed and commitment.
If now the law states that those not adult have to do further education whilst working or studying, then its clears its to benefit them.

You failed to answer my questions and apologize

What is wrong with you? We're talking about young people who are 16/17, not children who must go to school.

Obviously, if they want to be a doctor, they're not going to leave school at 16 and try to get any other job. I really don't think you have any idea what you're saying.

They are not adults are they Rags, yet you seem to deem them as adults
Hence you need to argue if mentally they are adult enough to fend for themselves in the world.
The point on doctors is they have to study for that role. So why should not everyone have to study for the job they do, when coming into the real world at 16?

Raggamuffin wrote:

Thorin wrote:

Makes perfect sense

It didn't. You were banging on about free rides when I was talking about someone getting a job without having to do further studying. You're clearly just trolling now, so don't bother.

You can get a job when you are 13. Do you want to allow children to stop their education at 13?
You see how your argument is set up to continually fail?

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:

I said my bit early on about this.
I think many jobs should be advertised here first and foremost, the free movement crap that says all jobs advertised in job centres should be advertised throughout the EU is just that...crap.

If jobs cant be filled by the people already resident in the UK and there is no adequate training for them...THEN hire from outside.

STOP denying the people here the chance to work in favour of hiring a foreigner.

STOP rewarding greedy employers a monetary bonus to hire someone from outside the UK.

If 2 people already resident here apply for the job, be they born here or recently arrived...either from inside or outside the EU. give the best qualified suitable applicant the job.

1) Jobs are advertised here as well as abroad.

2) Everyone should be able to apply for jobs

3) Some people here may not be the best people to fill that job vacancy or even have the abilities or qualifications.

4) If the view is one to discriminate, all the world can do the same to our citizens wishing to better their lives abroad. You think because of geography, presents a better argument to employ someone over their ability to perform that job. This is the problem with labels and nationalism. Imaginary boundaries and concepts like a people, whether it be British or English, Allows people to form the most prejudice views. That they should be given more rights than their fellow human beings. Its disgustingly ignorant and prejudiced on every level Syl

5) Nobody is being denied to work. All have the same opportunity to apply for the same jobs. Again this misconception to give priority to those on geography opens the door to forcing an employer to employ someone who is not up to the job

6) Learn to grow up and see past boundaries as you are creating them via geography

We wont ever agree Thor, and that's OK.
I think you are wrong (obviously) I hope when Brexit starts to move the free movement rules will be overhauled drastically.
For every job that's given to someone outside the EU when someone already here could do the job just as well, maybe better,  this is creating unemployment and benefits to be paid to a person when there would be no need.

No matter which way you argue you must see that's bad for the person involved, bad for society, and financially bad for the country when money is desperately needed in other departments.

Laters.

Thorin wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:


The uk govts job is to look after uk citizens... preventing unskilled foreigners from being able to come here and take the jobs that would otherwise have gone to uk citizens is not discrimination,  but doing their job as govt!!!


In fact it is discrimination against uk workers when employers here can neglect their responsibility to look after/employ the local uk workforce in the area that they operate in... and complete business madness to look to employ foreigners instead where this results in a higher local unemployment level among population and which will result in higher taxes for them as workers/businesses too to pay for the increased benefits bills... plus the increase in numbers of people here drives up costs of living which makes their business costs of operation rise, as well as making them less competetitive, it also drives up  demand for higher wage rates among their employees!!!


It is economic madness!!!

Wrong

1) The Governments jobs is to ensure equality, which means foreign born citizens, migrants, immigrants, refugees and those British born. Your view is to favour one other all the rest.

That is falling down the road to apartheid.

2) Nobody is taking anyone's Job. You seem to wrongly think because someone is born here, that this job should be theirs. Not based on their ability, but geography. Its about as dumb as it gets. Many companies are foreign and if they took your attitude, they would not have their branches here or want to do business with a nation that elevates its own citizens above anyone else. As it would cease to be one governed by secular values. You do not champion other nations denying Brits from going for jobs abroad, but think its acceptable to discriminate based on geography.

3) How is it discrimination to place people born here above those foreign? That is not equality, but inequality.
You are wishing to make some people here with more rights than others. That is discrimination.

The uk govts job is looking after the uk people.

Unskilled uk citizens (uk youth) cannot just turn up in Australia or America or countless other countries round the world, and expect to firstly even be allowed into the country, and secondly to be allowed to work in any of them...!!!


UK citizens here in uk obviously have rights here... a foreigner in a foreign country has their own rights in their country...


Uk citizens should of course have the right to live and work here in uk... non UK citizens should not have these automatic rights, but should be subject to permits and visas etc... as is the normal everywhere else and was the norm here before the eu madness!!!

Syl wrote:

Thorin wrote:

1) Jobs are advertised here as well as abroad.

2) Everyone should be able to apply for jobs

3) Some people here may not be the best people to fill that job vacancy or even have the abilities or qualifications.

4) If the view is one to discriminate, all the world can do the same to our citizens wishing to better their lives abroad. You think because of geography, presents a better argument to employ someone over their ability to perform that job. This is the problem with labels and nationalism. Imaginary boundaries and concepts like a people, whether it be British or English, Allows people to form the most prejudice views. That they should be given more rights than their fellow human beings. Its disgustingly ignorant and prejudiced on every level Syl

5) Nobody is being denied to work. All have the same opportunity to apply for the same jobs. Again this misconception to give priority to those on geography opens the door to forcing an employer to employ someone who is not up to the job

6) Learn to grow up and see past boundaries as you are creating them via geography

We wont ever agree Thor, and that's OK.
I think you are wrong (obviously) I hope when Brexit starts to move the free movement rules will be overhauled drastically.
For every job that's given to someone outside the EU when someone already here could do the job just as well, maybe better,  this is creating unemployment and benefits to be paid to a person when there would be no need.

No matter which way you argue you must see that's bad for the person involved, bad for society, and financially bad for the country when money is desperately needed in other departments.

Laters.

Actually Syl.
I dream of a day without borders or nations, just a human race looking out for each other.

So I shall leave you with this:


Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

Syl wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Green from me Syl for your post above...


This enforcement of 'training' on the youth is just another bureaucratic/regulatory/cost burden, and makes them less employable!

Thank you Tommy.
I also agree with a lot of what you have said throughout this thread.

Ta Syl... where's my green...!?

Syl wrote:

I said my bit early on about this.
I think many jobs should be advertised here first and foremost, the free movement crap that says all jobs advertised in job centres should be advertised throughout the EU is just that...crap.

If jobs cant be filled by the people already resident in the UK and there is no adequate training for them...THEN hire from outside.

STOP denying the people here the chance to work in favour of hiring a foreigner.

STOP rewarding greedy employers a monetary bonus to hire someone from outside the UK.

If 2 people already resident here apply for the job, be they born here or recently arrived...either from inside or outside the EU. give the best qualified suitable applicant the job.

Syl wrote:
...I hope when Brexit starts to move the free movement rules will be overhauled drastically.
For every job that's given to someone outside the EU when someone already here could do the job just as well, maybe better,  this is creating unemployment and benefits to be paid to a person when there would be no need.

No matter which way you argue you must see that's bad for the person involved, bad for society, and financially bad for the country when money is desperately needed in other departments.

Laters.

Well said!!!


Totally sensible and logical points... much the same as I have been arguing for years...!!!


So be prepared to now start getting the accusations of 'racist' and 'Nazi' thrown at you...!







Also...


"...If jobs cant be filled by the people already resident in the UK and there is no adequate training for them...THEN hire from outside..."


Here I disagree... what should happen here is that companies should be taking on lower skilled uk citizens and training them up to do these jobs... and/or more adequate training should be made available!!!


For how is it that our people are unable to get the necessary training/qualifications/skills etc to do a job that needs to be filled here in uk... while a foreigner is able to have access to this necessary training in their country... and so much so that there are too many of them there with the training/qualifications to fill the jobs there, that there is a surplus of them trying to fill the jobs here that our people have been denied the training for...!!!???

And it's funny how people like dodge will argue that 16-17 year olds are children... but also argue that they should be considered as adults by being allowed to vote... and also supporting the age of sexual consent to be 16... and also arguing that someone aged 18 or over, having sex with a 16/17 year old, is not child abuse/paedophilia etc... even though he starts off arguing that they are children...


Goalposts on wheels!!!

I do love when Tommy is left resorted to regurgitating his same prejudice and complimenting posts he likes spamming them. As if that somehow makes his view right.

Still waiting for him to actually counter my points

So far its been the same bog standard answer, backing inequality and prejudice

He then amusingly goes off what two other countries do and claims we should be like them' Surrendering civil rights to humans, based on geography. Australia and America, as if their view is right. Where even worse wrongly associates this not with applying for a job but turning up at the border to the country. This is about also Brits applying for work in the US and Australia, where also some are also unskilled. So thanks for that Tommy, you just further backed my point. 

Anyone should be able to apply for a job anywhere and the best applicants chosen

Tommy thinks EU citzens should not have the same rights as British citizens, even though thery live her contributing to this system. He wishes to punish them for their contribution, by taking away their rights.

What can I say, about a man that thinks people should be given jobs, based off where they were born, and not on their ability or character.

Tommy Monk wrote:And it's funny how people like dodge will argue that 16-17 year olds are children... but also argue that they should be considered as adults by being allowed to vote... and also supporting the age of sexual consent to be 16... and also arguing that someone aged 18 or over, having sex with a 16/17 year old, is not child abuse/paedophilia etc... even though he starts off arguing that they are children...


Goalposts on wheels!!!

Where have i argued they should have the vote?
Then he claims that supporting the right of 16 year olds to have sex is now wrong
Or clearly 13 years olds to work.
Does Tommy not understand gaining more rights as you get older?
The law does not class an 18 year old with a 16 year old as pedophilia. Let that last part sink in to how tommy has made himself look a right twat.
All I have backed is that those under 18 are still the responsibilities of their parents and that helping them after 16 with this scheme is a bonus to aid them in life




So lets recap here

Tommy seems to be suggesting to allow the law to lower the age of responsibility with children against that of the parents being responsible.
That they should be classed as adults at 16
No problem, present your arguments as to why?

In your own time

You think 16-17 year olds are adult enough to vote...


And... don't you think that these top quality unskilled foreign people you claim are coming here would instead be doing the available unskilled jobs in their own countries...if they were so good!?

As they would be the best people to be doing the jobs in their own countries... and doing the jobs there... wouldn't they...?

Or isn't it more the case that the best unskilled workers are doing the jobs in their countries... and it is the worse quality of their unskilled workers who aren't very good who are flooding in to try to take jobs from our unskilled uk workforce... and coming with the £1000 eu bonus to employers to employ them, that directly discriminates against uk workforce...?


And if these top quality unskilled foreigners have jobs in their own countries to do... why would our govt/immigration system be allowing them to come here to uk to try to take jobs that our own unskilled uk citizens can do...?

1) No I do not think they can vote

2) Does not make any sense

3) Now racism, claiming the best people in a country are those born there. Hilarious gibberish. Humans are one biological race.

4) More gibberish and claiming that people should stay where Tommy tells them to stay and claiming more racist gibberish. 

I got bored

Answer my points and then back up your accusations when I am back tomorrow


Still waiting for him to actually counter my points

So far its been the same bog standard answer, backing inequality and prejudice

He then amusingly goes off what two other countries do and claims we should be like them' Surrendering civil rights to humans, based on geography. Australia and America, as if their view is right. Where even worse wrongly associates this not with applying for a job but turning up at the border to the country. This is about also Brits applying for work in the US and Australia, where also some are also unskilled. So thanks for that Tommy, you just further backed my point. 

Anyone should be able to apply for a job anywhere and the best applicants chosen

Tommy thinks EU citzens should not have the same rights as British citizens, even though thery live her contributing to this system. He wishes to punish them for their contribution, by taking away their rights.

What can I say, about a man that thinks people should be given jobs, based off where they were born, and not on their ability or character.

Citizens of a country have the automatic right to live and work there... foreigners should only have rights of entry into this country, and rights to live/work here, if granted permissions through visas/work permits etc...

Tommy Monk wrote:

Syl wrote:

I said my bit early on about this.
I think many jobs should be advertised here first and foremost, the free movement crap that says all jobs advertised in job centres should be advertised throughout the EU is just that...crap.

If jobs cant be filled by the people already resident in the UK and there is no adequate training for them...THEN hire from outside.

STOP denying the people here the chance to work in favour of hiring a foreigner.

STOP rewarding greedy employers a monetary bonus to hire someone from outside the UK.

If 2 people already resident here apply for the job, be they born here or recently arrived...either from inside or outside the EU. give the best qualified suitable applicant the job.

Syl wrote:
...I hope when Brexit starts to move the free movement rules will be overhauled drastically.
For every job that's given to someone outside the EU when someone already here could do the job just as well, maybe better,  this is creating unemployment and benefits to be paid to a person when there would be no need.

No matter which way you argue you must see that's bad for the person involved, bad for society, and financially bad for the country when money is desperately needed in other departments.

Laters.

Well said!!!


Totally sensible and logical points... much the same as I have been arguing for years...!!!


So be prepared to now start getting the accusations of 'racist' and 'Nazi' thrown at you...!







Also...


"...If jobs cant be filled by the people already resident in the UK and there is no adequate training for them...THEN hire from outside..."


Here I disagree... what should happen here is that companies should be taking on lower skilled uk citizens and training them up to do these jobs... and/or more adequate training should be made available!!!


For how is it that our people are unable to get the necessary training/qualifications/skills etc to do a job that needs to be filled here in uk... while a foreigner is able to have access to this necessary training in their country... and so much so that there are too many of them there with the training/qualifications to fill the jobs there, that there is a surplus of them trying to fill the jobs here that our people have been denied the training for...!!!???

Here's the green ...I was spoiled for choice in this thread tbh, but thanks for liking my posts, and thanks for offering an alternative view.

I do think we need workers from the EU ...and from outside the EU to work here, but not to replace people who are already trained and working (as was the case a few years ago when my son, who is a highly qualified scaffolder, was replaced, along with the whole workforce, when the firm he worked for folded....only to open up again with a completely Polish work force.)

The accusations of racist and Nazi are empty words on forums....used to try to intimidate and shut people up.
The marker is if you are considered a racist or an extremist in real life by people who know you, not pointless keyboard warriors.

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:

We wont ever agree Thor, and that's OK.
I think you are wrong (obviously) I hope when Brexit starts to move the free movement rules will be overhauled drastically.
For every job that's given to someone outside the EU when someone already here could do the job just as well, maybe better,  this is creating unemployment and benefits to be paid to a person when there would be no need.

No matter which way you argue you must see that's bad for the person involved, bad for society, and financially bad for the country when money is desperately needed in other departments.

Laters.

Actually Syl.
I dream of a day without borders or nations, just a human race looking out for each other.

So I shall leave you with this:


Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

Imagination is a wonderful thing Thor....like the other peace song, The world is just a great big onion...(OK, its not in the same class as Lennons great song) but sadly imagination isn't fact.

Peace in the world is one thing, hopefully one day it'll happen,(sadly not in our lifetime) but making people feel like second class citizens in their own country because they are overlooked in the job market isn't the way forwards imo.

Syl wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:





Well said!!!


Totally sensible and logical points... much the same as I have been arguing for years...!!!


So be prepared to now start getting the accusations of 'racist' and 'Nazi' thrown at you...!







Also...


"...If jobs cant be filled by the people already resident in the UK and there is no adequate training for them...THEN hire from outside..."


Here I disagree... what should happen here is that companies should be taking on lower skilled uk citizens and training them up to do these jobs... and/or more adequate training should be made available!!!


For how is it that our people are unable to get the necessary training/qualifications/skills etc to do a job that needs to be filled here in uk... while a foreigner is able to have access to this necessary training in their country... and so much so that there are too many of them there with the training/qualifications to fill the jobs there, that there is a surplus of them trying to fill the jobs here that our people have been denied the training for...!!!???

Here's the green ...I was spoiled for choice in this thread tbh, but thanks for liking my posts, and thanks for offering an alternative view.

I do think we need workers from the EU ...and from outside the EU to work here, but not to replace people who are already trained and working (as was the case a few years ago when my son, who is a highly qualified scaffolder, was replaced, along with the whole workforce, when the firm he worked for folded....only to open up again with a completely Polish work force.)

The accusations of racist and Nazi are empty words on forums....used to try to intimidate and shut people up.
The marker is if you are considered a racist or an extremist in real life by people who know you, not pointless keyboard warriors.

If you think we do not need workers from the EU and NON-EU, and implement this, you would cause the NHS for example to collapse, as well as other industries

The unemployment rate is 1.60 million unemployed people (people not in work but seeking and available to work),

There are 7,993,480 foreign born

Can you do the maths Syl?

Without those foreign born, and lets take into account, some too young, women staying at home, elderly ect. You would have at least a shortfall of 5 million jobs vacant. If these foreigners were not here Syl?

Do you want to see the UK self implode with your irrational views on denying millions of foreigners who drive the UK economy?

Do you also want to stop all Brits wanting to better their lives abroad?

Those who want to stop all immigration are doing so off emotions not reason

If people are living here, have made their lives here and are contributing to the UK I would never uproot them or their families Thor...that's a different matter.

I know the NHS would crumble, we desperately needed a foreign workforce once to keep the NHS running, we now need to start training our own people when we can, not rely on importing yet more foreign workers.

This thread is interesting, will be back later to catch up.

Syl wrote:If people are living here, have made their lives here and are contributing to the UK I would never uproot them Thor...that's a different matter.

I know the NHS would crumble, we desperately needed a foreign workforce once to keep the NHS running, we now need to start training our own people when we can, not rely on importing yet more foreign workers.

This thread is interesting, will be back later to catch up.

Its not just the NHS and to be honest it disgusts me the way people demean and place fear off immigrants here, especially as my parents were immigrants. They never gained anything from schooling here, my father served in the forces and never was admitted to hospital whilst leaving here. He only got sick in Ireland and was treated there until he passed away. The only time my mother ever went to hospital, was to give birth. They moved to Ireland when they retired, where my mum still lives. They gave far more to this country working, than many British born, who cost the system far more and many other immigrants are like this. Again people should be able to come to this country. Its a selfish view of people who lucky to be born here, thinking they can deny others that chance to live here and I find that appalling.

Catch you later

Times have changed Thor, no one is meaning people like your parents, (who sound lovely btw) should not have been welcomed here, and I imagine they went through many more hardships than people today ever do.

But...times HAVE changed, if we carry on with open borders we (the uk) wont be able to offer anyone a decent life if they come here....how can we if we cant offer people bred and born here one?

Syl wrote:Times have changed Thor, no one is meaning people like your parents, (who sound lovely btw) should not have been welcomed here, and I imagine they went through many more hardships than people today ever do.

But...times HAVE changed, if we carry on with open borders we (the uk) wont be able to offer anyone a decent life if they come here....how can we if we cant offer people bred and born here one?

You previously said we do not need workers from the EU
I just showed that we do previously.
I am happy that number should be controlled, based on the gorwth on infrustructure but that is not what you previously said

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:

We wont ever agree Thor, and that's OK.
I think you are wrong (obviously) I hope when Brexit starts to move the free movement rules will be overhauled drastically.
For every job that's given to someone outside the EU when someone already here could do the job just as well, maybe better,  this is creating unemployment and benefits to be paid to a person when there would be no need.

No matter which way you argue you must see that's bad for the person involved, bad for society, and financially bad for the country when money is desperately needed in other departments.

Laters.

Actually Syl.
I dream of a day without borders or nations, just a human race looking out for each other.

So I shall leave you with this:


Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

Ah, yes. John Lennon, cheat and wife beater who didn't leave his son a penny. What wonderful prose he wrote and all of it hypocritical bollocks.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Thorin wrote:


Actually Syl.
I dream of a day without borders or nations, just a human race looking out for each other.

So I shall leave you with this:


Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace

Ah, yes.  John Lennon,  cheat and  wife beater who didn't leave his son a penny.   What wonderful prose he wrote and all of it hypocritical bollocks.

It was written by his wife Yoko


Several poems from Yoko Ono's 1964 book Grapefruit inspired Lennon to write the lyrics for "Imagine"^[2]—in particular, one which Capitol Records reproduced on the back cover of the original Imagine LP titled "Cloud Piece", reads: "Imagine the clouds dripping, dig a hole in your garden to put them in."^[3] Lennon later said the composition "should be credited as a Lennon/Ono song.

Anyway, talk about piss poor misdirection to the points

Are you saying the world would not be a better place based on that reality?

Thorin wrote:

Syl wrote:Times have changed Thor, no one is meaning people like your parents, (who sound lovely btw) should not have been welcomed here, and I imagine they went through many more hardships than people today ever do.

But...times HAVE changed, if we carry on with open borders we (the uk) wont be able to offer anyone a decent life if they come here....how can we if we cant offer people bred and born here one?

You previously said we do not need workers from the EU
I just showed that we do previously.
I am happy that number should be controlled, based on the gorwth on infrustructure but that is not what you previously said

You are wrong Thor...I have not said, either in this thread or any other that we don't need workers from abroad.
I said very clearly that if someone here can do the job they should be given the opportunity BEFORE we bring in anyone from outside the UK.
My first post was this...I haven't changed my view throughout.

"Surely there's a happy medium to be reached.
End the free movement, it certainly isn't beneficial to the UK.
Clamp down on companies advertising for workers in EU countries instead of advertising and offering the jobs to locals.

Welcome EU workers who are suited to the jobs they apply for....Obviously the country would suffer if we didn't welcome some workers from the EU and beyond.."

Thorin wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

Ah, yes.  John Lennon,  cheat and  wife beater who didn't leave his son a penny.   What wonderful prose he wrote and all of it hypocritical bollocks.

It was written by his wife Yoko


Several poems from Yoko Ono's 1964 book Grapefruit inspired Lennon to write the lyrics for "Imagine"^[2]—in particular, one which Capitol Records reproduced on the back cover of the original Imagine LP titled "Cloud Piece", reads: "Imagine the clouds dripping, dig a hole in your garden to put them in."^[3] Lennon later said the composition "should be credited as a Lennon/Ono song.

Anyway, talk about piss poor misdirection to the points

Are you saying the world would not be a better place based on that reality?

According to this it was a joint effort. The title was from Yokos early poetry, the peace aspect was from John. Interesting, I always thought it was his own work.

"dissabte, 15 de gener de 2011
Who wrote IMAGINE?


By Nina Vanishvili

Imagine, John Lennon's most famous song, was voted Britain's favourite song of all time. It is an idealistic song about peace and the hope for a better world. Imagine all the people living life in peace. The song was a big hit in 1971, and again in 1980 when Lennon was murdered in New York . It become a hit for a third time after the terrorist attacks of September 11th 2001. But who really wrote the song? Until recently the answer to this questions was always John Lennon. But on a TV programme Lennon's wife, Yoko Ono, spoke for the first time about how she, in fact, helped to write it. Ono said that the inspiration for Imagine came from some of her poems, which John Lennon was reading at that time. The poems began with the word “Imagine”: Imagine a raindrop, Imagine a goldfish. Ono said: “When I was a child in Japan during the Second World War my brother and I were terribly hungry. I imagined delicious menus for him and he began to smile. If you think something is impossible, you can imagine it and make it happen”. In an interview just before he died, Lennon admitted that Yoko deserved credit for Imagine. He said: “A lot of it – the lyrics and the concept – came from her, from her book of poems, Imagine this, imagine that”. Lennon said that he was too macho to share the credit with her at the time. Ono said that some of the song was written when they were flying across the Atlantic and the rest was written on the piano in their bedroom at their home in England. Ono said: “The song speaks about John's dream for the world. It was something he really wanted to say”. Imagine became a popular song for peace activists everywhere. In March 2002 the airport in his home town of Liverpool was renamed the John Lennon Airport. A sign over the main entrance has a line from Imagine: “Above us only sky”."

Thorin wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

Ah, yes.  John Lennon,  cheat and  wife beater who didn't leave his son a penny.   What wonderful prose he wrote and all of it hypocritical bollocks.

It was written by his wife Yoko


Several poems from Yoko Ono's 1964 book Grapefruit inspired Lennon to write the lyrics for "Imagine"^[2]—in particular, one which Capitol Records reproduced on the back cover of the original Imagine LP titled "Cloud Piece", reads: "Imagine the clouds dripping, dig a hole in your garden to put them in."^[3] Lennon later said the composition "should be credited as a Lennon/Ono song.

Anyway, talk about piss poor misdirection to the points

Are you saying the world would not be a better place based on that reality?

John Lennon was inspired by some of her poems from Grapefruit. Apparently, he kind of backpedalled in later years claiming that Ono should have taken the credit, as most of the lyrics were inspired by her. But being the selfish twat he was, he took all the credit at the time. So, based on that, the song is a load of hypocritical bollocks. All that Peace shit he claimed to believe in while being a violent womaniser. Lennon's cruelty was infamous. So, I can't really subscribe to the message of anything out of his mouth or head. One of his best was Instant Karma.

Syl wrote:

Thorin wrote:


It was written by his wife Yoko


Several poems from Yoko Ono's 1964 book Grapefruit inspired Lennon to write the lyrics for "Imagine"^[2]—in particular, one which Capitol Records reproduced on the back cover of the original Imagine LP titled "Cloud Piece", reads: "Imagine the clouds dripping, dig a hole in your garden to put them in."^[3] Lennon later said the composition "should be credited as a Lennon/Ono song.

Anyway, talk about piss poor misdirection to the points

Are you saying the world would not be a better place based on that reality?

According to this it was a joint effort. The title was from Yokos early poetry, the peace aspect was from John. Interesting, I always thought it was his own work.

"dissabte, 15 de gener de 2011
Who wrote IMAGINE?


By Nina Vanishvili

Imagine, John Lennon's most famous song, was voted Britain's favourite song of all time. It is an idealistic song about peace and the hope for a better world. Imagine all the people living life in peace. The song was a big hit in 1971, and again in 1980 when Lennon was murdered in New York . It become a hit for a third time after the terrorist attacks of September 11th 2001. But who really wrote the song? Until recently the answer to this questions was always John Lennon. But on a TV programme Lennon's wife, Yoko Ono, spoke for the first time about how she, in fact, helped to write it. Ono said that the inspiration for Imagine came from some of her poems, which John Lennon was reading at that time. The poems began with the word “Imagine”: Imagine a raindrop, Imagine a goldfish. Ono said: “When I was a child in Japan during the Second World War my brother and I were terribly hungry. I imagined delicious menus for him and he began to smile. If you think something is impossible, you can imagine it and make it happen”. In an interview just before he died, Lennon admitted that Yoko deserved credit for Imagine. He said: “A lot of it – the lyrics and the concept – came from her, from her book of poems, Imagine this, imagine that”. Lennon said that he was too macho to share the credit with her at the time. Ono said that some of the song was written when they were flying across the Atlantic and the rest was written on the piano in their bedroom at their home in England. Ono said: “The song speaks about John's dream for the world. It was something he really wanted to say”. Imagine became a popular song for peace activists everywhere. In March 2002 the airport in his home town of Liverpool was renamed the John Lennon Airport. A sign over the main entrance has a line from Imagine: “Above us only sky”."

I've just read this. But as he wrote the music and not her, I'd say the majority of the song belonged to him. Have you ever heard her sing? She sounds like a tone deaf rat with it's balls caught in a vice. In the words of Andy Peebles, who interviewed her just before Lennon's death "She's the woman who has done for singing what Wayne Sleep has done for Rugby League” I think she rode Lennon's talent like a poodle rides a bike. He used to call her 'mother'... Nuff said.

HoratioTarr wrote:

Thorin wrote:


It was written by his wife Yoko


Several poems from Yoko Ono's 1964 book Grapefruit inspired Lennon to write the lyrics for "Imagine"^[2]—in particular, one which Capitol Records reproduced on the back cover of the original Imagine LP titled "Cloud Piece", reads: "Imagine the clouds dripping, dig a hole in your garden to put them in."^[3] Lennon later said the composition "should be credited as a Lennon/Ono song.

Anyway, talk about piss poor misdirection to the points

Are you saying the world would not be a better place based on that reality?

John Lennon was inspired by some of her poems from Grapefruit.  Apparently, he kind of backpedalled in later years claiming that Ono should have taken the credit, as most of the lyrics were inspired by her.  But being the selfish twat he was, he took all the credit at the time.   So, based on that, the song is a load of hypocritical bollocks.  All that Peace shit he claimed to believe in while being a violent womaniser.  Lennon's cruelty was infamous.  So, I can't really subscribe to the message of anything out of his mouth or head.   One of his best was Instant Karma.  

So you dislike the man and have made that clear all of which has no relevance to the points made in the song.

You do realise this do you not?

So again

Are you saying the world would not be a better place based on that reality?

HoratioTarr wrote:

Syl wrote:

According to this it was a joint effort. The title was from Yokos early poetry, the peace aspect was from John. Interesting, I always thought it was his own work.

"dissabte, 15 de gener de 2011
Who wrote IMAGINE?


By Nina Vanishvili

Imagine, John Lennon's most famous song, was voted Britain's favourite song of all time. It is an idealistic song about peace and the hope for a better world. Imagine all the people living life in peace. The song was a big hit in 1971, and again in 1980 when Lennon was murdered in New York . It become a hit for a third time after the terrorist attacks of September 11th 2001. But who really wrote the song? Until recently the answer to this questions was always John Lennon. But on a TV programme Lennon's wife, Yoko Ono, spoke for the first time about how she, in fact, helped to write it. Ono said that the inspiration for Imagine came from some of her poems, which John Lennon was reading at that time. The poems began with the word “Imagine”: Imagine a raindrop, Imagine a goldfish. Ono said: “When I was a child in Japan during the Second World War my brother and I were terribly hungry. I imagined delicious menus for him and he began to smile. If you think something is impossible, you can imagine it and make it happen”. In an interview just before he died, Lennon admitted that Yoko deserved credit for Imagine. He said: “A lot of it – the lyrics and the concept – came from her, from her book of poems, Imagine this, imagine that”. Lennon said that he was too macho to share the credit with her at the time. Ono said that some of the song was written when they were flying across the Atlantic and the rest was written on the piano in their bedroom at their home in England. Ono said: “The song speaks about John's dream for the world. It was something he really wanted to say”. Imagine became a popular song for peace activists everywhere. In March 2002 the airport in his home town of Liverpool was renamed the John Lennon Airport. A sign over the main entrance has a line from Imagine: “Above us only sky”."

I've just read this.   But as he wrote the music and not her, I'd say the majority of the song belonged to him.    Have you ever heard her sing?  She sounds like a tone deaf rat with it's balls caught in a vice.  In the words of Andy Peebles, who interviewed her just before Lennon's death  "She's the woman who has done for singing what Wayne Sleep has done for Rugby League”   I think she rode Lennon's talent like a poodle rides a bike.  He used to call her 'mother'...  Nuff said.

I have never heard her sing, I watched a concert once where she wailed like a banshee, does that count?

She couldn't sing a note. Rode on the back of Lennons shirt tails. I can't see she had any talent at all.