Violence inside prisons in England and Wales is at its most serious level ever

Pentonville stabbing is 'most extreme example of prison safety decline'

Chair of the parole board warns prisons in England and Wales are feeling the effects of losing thousands of extra staff in past few years

Alan Travis Home affairs editor Thursday 20 October 2016 19.36 BST

Violence inside prisons in England and Wales is at its most serious level ever and is getting worse, the new chair of the parole board has warned.

Prof Nick Hardwick said that the stabbing inside Pentonville prison on Monday was “the most extreme example of the decline in safety” that he and others have warned about for years.

In his Howard League Parmoor lecture, he says that without “a very substantial increase in staffing levels” ambitious government plans to improve rehabilitation and education or tackle extremism “are simply not achievable”.

He welcomed a £14m scheme to recruit 400 extra staff at the 10 worst prisons, which was announced two weeks ago by the justice secretary Liz Truss. But he added: “It does not compensate for the thousands of extra staff who have been taken out of prisons over the last few years and I am afraid a lot more than 10 prisons are in trouble.

“The meaning of the increase in suicides, assaults and murders we are seeing now is not just the awful consequences for the prisoners, staff and families involved but the evidence they provide of a loss of control of our prisons.”

Hardwick, who is the former chief inspector of prisons, said Truss and her justice ministers fully understand the gravity of the situation and the need for a very substantial increase in staffing.

“The 400 extra staff must be just the first immediate step,” he said. “The problem is now of such a scale, and the resources required to address it so significant, that it will take a government-wide commitment to address it in the next spending round. And whether government as a whole understands the problem I don’t know.”

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2016/oct/20/pentonville-stabbing-is-most-extreme-example-of-prison-safety-decline

I don't think it's just lack of staff only, that is the problem, it's why the prisoners continue to commit violent acts.
That's the root cause of the problem.

dont ask questions...the answer is single ocupant cells and bang em up 24/7

Probably best to look at the costs before advocating knee-jerk policies:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/471625/costs-per-place.pdf

and your point is?

Lord Foul wrote:and your point is?

My point is - it's probably best to look at the costs before advocating knee-jerk policies:

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/471625/costs-per-place.pdf

yes...and....so what??

those figures are meaningless in the concept of single ocupant cells with 24/7 lock up....

I agree the PRESENT high security prisons are more expensive.....

but they are NOT the same thing,

or did you not understand what I said?

Lord Foul wrote:yes...and....so what??

those figures are meaningless in the concept of single ocupant cells with 24/7 lock up....

I agree the PRESENT high security prisons are more expensive.....

but they are NOT the same thing,

or did you not understand what I said?  

I see - so how much would single cell occupancy for every prisoner cost?

I have no idea...the capital costs obviously would be somewhat higher

but the ongoing costs (staff etc ) would be lower

security would be easier to maintain, there would be no prisoner fights and they could be cuffed before being allowed outside the cell for transfers etc....

there is a gaol in the states that uses this or at least a very similar system

Lord Foul wrote:I have no idea...the capital costs obviously would be somewhat higher

but the ongoing costs (staff etc ) would be lower

security would be easier to maintain, there would be no prisoner fights and they could be cuffed before being allowed outside the cell for transfers etc....

No, nor me - but since campaigners have been calling for single cell occupancy for decades and have consistently been told that  the cost is prohibitive by those who actually know something about the penal system I imagine it's a non-starter.

Re the op... was a 21 year old Somalian who died after being attacked with a large hunting style knife and then thrown over the balcony from the 5th floor...


He was allegedly a member of a violent robbery/drugs/crime group of thugs called 'the get money gang'... and was already in prison for a long stretch for robbery and had just been convicted of another crime of possessing/owning/storing a loaded machine gun!


Not seen any details of identity of the 2 who killed him yet... but was reported that another 2 were seriously injured in the attack and were both in a very serious condition in hospital...

Tommy Monk wrote:Re the op... was a 21 year old Somalian who died after being attacked with a large hunting style knife and then thrown over the balcony from the 5th floor...


He was allegedly a member of a violent robbery/drugs/crime group of thugs called 'the get money gang'... and was already in prison for a long stretch for robbery and had just been convicted of another crime of possessing/owning/storing a loaded machine gun!


Not seen any details of identity of the 2 who killed him yet... but was reported that another 2 were seriously injured in the attack and we're both in a very serious condition in hospital...

I hope you recover soon

Obvious typo elmer... I post from my phone... the damn spellchecker thing does it sometimes...

I know...but it amused me....

A man has been charged with the murder... Banana Kimbembi... another highly skilled, hard working and we'll needed immigrant...

Tommy if you think for one moment that it's only immigrants that are committing violent crimes in prisons then you're off your meds.

eddie wrote:Tommy if you think for one moment that it's only immigrants that are committing violent crimes in prisons then you're off your meds.

OF COURSE HE DOES! Just like he thinks the majority of rapes in the U.S. are committed by black men against white women. This is his worldview, and just because he never explicitly admits that he thinks white men are superior to all other people doesn't mean it's not obvious that he feels that way.

Ben Reilly wrote:

eddie wrote:Tommy if you think for one moment that it's only immigrants that are committing violent crimes in prisons then you're off your meds.

OF COURSE HE DOES! Just like he thinks the majority of rapes in the U.S. are committed by black men against white women. This is his worldview, and just because he never explicitly admits that he thinks white men are superior to all other people doesn't mean it's not obvious that he feels that way.

OK THEN! VERY PASSIONATE!
I will see what he answers, if he does. He avoids me.

eddie wrote:

Ben Reilly wrote:

eddie wrote:Tommy if you think for one moment that it's only immigrants that are committing violent crimes in prisons then you're off your meds.

OF COURSE HE DOES! Just like he thinks the majority of rapes in the U.S. are committed by black men against white women. This is his worldview, and just because he never explicitly admits that he thinks white men are superior to all other people doesn't mean it's not obvious that he feels that way.

OK THEN! VERY PASSIONATE!
I will see what he answers, if he does. He avoids me.

He avoids answering any question that will directly confirm him as a racist.

I keep giving him the benefit of the doubt and I am very patient.

When prisonuz leave their cells for any reason, shackle them hands and feet with a waist chain which has a cannon ball type attached to it, if they want to work they will have to tote said cannonball making them less of a problem, you will not need so many staff then.

Give prison staff electric probes, cattle probes to keep them under control.

Stop cosseting the scum.

eddie wrote:I keep giving him the benefit of the doubt and I am very patient.

No eddie... you keep doubting me and asking loaded questions to try to catch me out...


Getting a little tiresome to be honest...

Loaded questions to catch you out of what???
I'm genuinely asking questions that I am curious about.

Fucking hell. You sound like an emotionally retarded toddler. If you don't want to answer say "I don't want to answer thank you" instead of answering me with crap so I'm forced to say it's crap and then ask you again.

But now I know.
And you should know that if you answer truly from the heart you can never do wrong by you.

eddie wrote:Tommy if you think for one moment that it's only immigrants that are committing violent crimes in prisons then you're off your meds.

The crime rates outside of prison are clear...


Blacks and Muslims make up much larger prison percentage than seen in general population...

Major wrote:When prisonuz leave their cells for any reason, shackle them hands and feet with a waist chain which has a cannon ball type attached to it, if they want to work they will have to tote said cannonball making them less of a problem, you will not need so many staff then.

Give prison staff electric probes, cattle probes to keep them under control.

Stop cosseting the scum.

Well that's fine then but did you know that from independent research that around 1 in 10 of our prison population ar ex British soldiers who served their country but when they left they somehow ended up in a life of crime. What I see on here is pretty much solitary confinement for whover they are. People are in prison for defaulting on paying their poll tax and even for watching television without a TV licence.

Should we really be treating our veterans of war in that way without trying to understand why they have ended up in the nick?

Prison watch has some details on it and I would suggest people should read up on it before casting them into the darkness of a prison cell in the way I have seen on here.

https://prisonwatchuk.com/2016/04/12/ex-servicemen-in-prison-england-wales/

@ Major...

That would be electric cattle prods,  not "probes", you ignoramus...

Keep on trolling on here, 'Major'/Stormee..
You're exposing more and more of your own lies,  day by day.

Irn Bru wrote:

Major wrote:When prisonuz leave their cells for any reason, shackle them hands and feet with a waist chain which has a cannon ball type attached to it, if they want to work they will have to tote said cannonball making them less of a problem, you will not need so many staff then.

Give prison staff electric probes, cattle probes to keep them under control.

Stop cosseting the scum.

Well that's fine then but did you know that from independent research that around 1 in 10 of our prison population ar ex British soldiers who served their country but when they left they somehow ended up in a life of crime. What I see on here is pretty much solitary confinement for whover they are. People are in prison for defaulting on paying their poll tax and even for watching television without a TV licence.

Should we really be treating our veterans of war in that way without trying to understand why they have ended up in the nick?

Prison watch has some details on it and I would suggest people should read up on it before casting them into the darkness of a prison cell in the way I have seen on here.

https://prisonwatchuk.com/2016/04/12/ex-servicemen-in-prison-england-wales/

Spot on Irn, work is being done in this area but not enough and not quick enough.

Men going from war to crime is a story older than all of us ... we should show some compassion there. You'd be hard pressed to name a famous Old West gunslinger who didn't fight in the Civil War.

William Bonny?

I think prisons should have single cells and proper lock down and segregation of prisoners... the only thing any of them should be allowed to gave is a TV screen built into the wall where a selection of educational programmes are available to watch on request...

ALL ex soldjuz should be looked after properly unless they are in jail for something really serious

All prisons should be run on the lines of the Military one in Colchester !!

If they were locked inside their cells 24/7 they would be less of a problem.

That's tempting Major, but they have to be let out for exercise.

No they don't nicko... they could do exercise in cell... aerobics, press ups, sit ups, star jumps etc...

If you keep human beings in inhumane conditions they will act inhumanely.
Keeping them enclosed without physical exercise or mental stimulus is asking for trouble imo.
Also many people in prison shouldn't even be there....you cant treat people with mental conditions the same way you would treat an evil serial killer or a paedophile.
Most of them will be out mixing with society one day, surely if they have been treated with fairness whilst they were in prison they would be less of a threat to society once they are freed.

Great post Syl, the copious amounts of sangria have made you more clever than your usual clever self.

Some in there are inhuman Syl, those are the onez I do not have time for.

eddie wrote:Great post Syl, the copious amounts of sangria have made you more clever than your usual clever self.

Thanks Eddie...I will have to keep it up then.

Major wrote:Some in there are inhuman Syl, those are the onez I do not have time for.

But the majority will be out one day Major, so surely trying to rehabilitate them, starting by treating them as human beings would be the better way to go?

The ones who will never be freed, given the death penalty isn't around anymore, should still be treated with dignity, even if they are isolated from the others.

Major wrote:Some in there are inhuman Syl, those are the onez I do not have time for.

I think it would be better if we dealt with the fact that actually, they're every bit as human as us.

The point is, is that there are many types of prisoners in prison for many different crimes and treating everyone the same and not allowing them a chance at bettering their lives is just not solving the problem or creating a better society.

OH ben, you should really get out more.

nicko wrote:OH ben,  you should really get out more.

Nicko, we are talking about prisons and prisoners, are you suggesting Ben hangs around prisons so that he understands how to treat humans?

I'm suggesting Ben I thinks every one will be nice if law and order breaks down.

We also need to be mindful that most of those prisoners are going to freed and back in society at some point

Miffs2 wrote:We also need to be mindful that most of those prisoners are going to freed and back in society at some point

Which is one reason why they need rehabilitating surely?

Syl wrote:If you keep human beings in inhumane conditions they will act inhumanely.
Keeping them enclosed without physical exercise or mental stimulus is asking for trouble imo.
Also many people in prison shouldn't even be there....you cant treat people with mental conditions the same way you would treat an evil serial killer or a paedophile.
Most of them will be out mixing with society one day, surely if they have been treated with fairness whilst they were in prison they would be less of a threat to society once they are freed.

I didn't say kept in inhumane conditions or without mental stimulus or exercise...


I

Tommy Monk wrote:

Syl wrote:If you keep human beings in inhumane conditions they will act inhumanely.
Keeping them enclosed without physical exercise or mental stimulus is asking for trouble imo.
Also many people in prison shouldn't even be there....you cant treat people with mental conditions the same way you would treat an evil serial killer or a paedophile.
Most of them will be out mixing with society one day, surely if they have been treated with fairness whilst they were in prison they would be less of a threat to society once they are freed.

I didn't say kept in inhumane conditions or without mental stimulus or exercise...


I

I didn't say you did Tommy.

You did suggest that prisoners should be confined to their cells though, which is actually treating them worse than dangerous animals...which the majority of prisoners obviously are not.