Madonna Loves disni66a!

First topic message reminder :

20th January 2014

So, she believed it was ok, she then reiterated that it was ok, then apologised.

Will she still think there was nothing wrong with saying it?  Probably.

So why did she feel compelled to change her life?

Please discuss.

Madonna on Saturday apologised for using a racial slur on Instagram to refer to her white son, a day after calling those who criticised her language "haters".

On Friday night the singer posted a picture of her 13-year-old son Rocco boxing, and included the comment: "No one messes with Dirty Soap! Mama said knock you out!" She then added “#disnigga”.

The singer quickly deleted the comment after Instagram users berated her for the use of the word, though she was initially defiant. But in a statement to the Associated Press on Saturday, Madonna said: "Forgive me."

The statement said: "I am sorry if I offended anyone with my use of the N word on Instagram. It was not meant as a racial slur. I am not a racist. There's no way to defend the use of the word. It was all about intention. It was used as a term of endearment toward my son who is white. I appreciate that it's a provocative word and I apologise if it gave people the wrong impression."

Besides Rocco, Madonna has three other children, including Lourdes, David and Mercy. Mercy and David are black, adopted from the African nation of Malawi.

Earlier this month, Madonna posted a photo of Rocco and his two young friends holding up bottles of liquor. She defended the post as a joke, posting on Instagram: "No one was drinking we were just having fun! Calm down and get a sense of humor! Don't start the year off with judgement!"


http://www.theguardian.com/music/2014/jan/18/madonna-apologises-racial-term-instagram

Precisely. It's what happens, not some rule.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

sphinx wrote:

But black people can say nigger to other black people while white people cannot say nigger to other white people.

That is discrimination.

Nobody is talking about a law here, just how society reacts. If you're white and use that word, you're not going to prison, you're just going to be criticized.

And how long does it take before that criticism turns into violence or going to prison?

Discrimination does not come into being fully formed it develops - starts with criticism and grows.

How long before a white person is violently beaten for using the word? What does it mean if the attackers are black and are let off because the word is offensive if used by whites?

What do you call a situation where someone can be beaten to death for doing something because of their race?

You know what, you can show people (but apparently the horror of those pictures and their legacy was not understood), you can explain, you can talk, but when someone just can't understand a concept, you just have to leave them to it.

sphinx wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

sphinx wrote:

But black people can say nigger to other black people while white people cannot say nigger to other white people.

That is discrimination.

Nobody is talking about a law here, just how society reacts. If you're white and use that word, you're not going to prison, you're just going to be criticized.

And how long does it take before that criticism turns into violence or going to prison?

Discrimination does not come into being fully formed it develops - starts with criticism and grows.  

How long before a white person is violently beaten for using the word?  What does it mean if the attackers are black and are let off because the word is offensive if used by whites?

What do you call a situation where someone can be beaten to death for doing something because of their race?

I'm positive people have been beaten up for using that word as an epithet against black people -- can't say I feel real sorry about it.

I'm sure that pretty soon, we're going to see widespread beatings, prison sentences, etc. over white people in America, who make up 64 percent of the population, using a word they've used for centuries with complete impunity, and are only in the past several decades even condemned by the majority for using.

I hear you -- my heart just bleeds for all those innocent, good-hearted white people who only want to be able to use the n-word with impunity, like in the good ol' days ...

Oh, and at 13 percent of the population, I'm sure black people will soon be dominating and oppressing white people.

Sassy wrote:You know what, you can show people (but apparently the horror of those pictures and their legacy was not understood), you can explain, you can talk, but when someone just can't understand a concept, you just have to leave them to it.

Sassy do you believe the best use of those pictures is as a whip to punish people now or as lessons to stop the same thing happening in the future?

OK I fold - we will let that 13% of the population have their own way until as much white blood has been spilt as black blood because that has to be the best way to learn from our stupid mistakes of the past.

sphinx wrote:OK I fold - we will let that 13% of the population have their own way until as much white blood has been spilt as black blood because that has to be the best way to learn from our stupid mistakes of the past.

Kill whitey!!!!! That's what this oppression is all about. Calling someone a racist for using the n-word will lead to rampant murders!

VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!!  ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

sphinx wrote:OK I fold - we will let that 13% of the population have their own way until as much white blood has been spilt as black blood because that has to be the best way to learn from our stupid mistakes of the past.

Kill whitey!!!!! That's what this oppression is all about. Calling someone a racist for using the n-word will lead to rampant murders!

VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!!  ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan:

Do you not see that accepting it as OK will lead down that path?

This is what makes me cry about the human animal - time and time again they will make the same mistakes by the simple course of trying so hard to avoid making them again.

It starts with criticism.
Then someone thinks hang on if that is a something I can criticise then it is something I can "punish"
The argument that made criticism acceptable will be used to make the "punishment" acceptable

If you are going to say black people have the right to criticise Madonna for saying it how do you say its not OK for them to beat her for saying it?

Or rather when some black guy is in court for beating the shit out of some white guy he heard use the word stands up and shows the picture of his grandfather hanging from a branch and describes his anger and pain is that court going to punish him to the full extent of the law? What happens if it does? What message does it send if it does not?

I mean at a rough guess with the dynamics of Madonnas family the word would have come in through her black children - who may have called their white brother it as a term of endearment which their mother copied - it simply became part of the family dynamic which started as a black kid showing full acceptance of his white brother. I mean has anyone thought to ask the black people closest to the issue what they think was going on, whether they were offended? If her black children and black friends and their black friends are happy for her to use the word in the way she did who the hell are the rest of us to judge them?

Wall, head, beat, no thanks.

Sassy wrote:Wall, head, beat, no thanks.

Yeah exactly how I feel Sassy - because I am more worried about making sure the world my kids grow up is different from the world my grandparents grew up in than beating myself up about the injustices of my grandparents generation.

Jesus wept, you just haven't got it. Add those picture to the word, that what black people see, that is why it is not acceptable for white people to use it. Its got absolutely fuck all about beating yourself up about what ancestors did, its about seeing what the word means to black people and having the sensitivity to understand it. Not carrying on, you just can't grasp it.

Sphinx does have one point, it is not correct for a person to take the law into his own hands if there is discrimination going on unless they have to defend themselves which is normally the case where people are set upon by racists, but if the violence is committed through anger it is still wrong also.

You do not resolve a discrimination problem with violence, which can have the opposite affect. These days they do the right thing and make examples out of people who discriminate through the law

Sassy wrote:Jesus wept, you just haven't got it.   Add those picture to the word, that what black people see, that is why it is not acceptable for white people to use it.   Its got absolutely fuck all about beating yourself up about what ancestors did, its about seeing what the word means to black people and having the sensitivity to understand it.    Not carrying on, you just can't grasp it.

No I grasp that.

What you do not grasp is that none of that makes it so that any race should have rights another race does not.

You do not grasp that not all black people see those pictures. You do not get that the woman attacked has black children who do not see those picture who just see their mother being slated for something that they have no problem with.

For fuck sake she has done the complete bloody opposite of racism. She probably knows more about the very real very personal stories of black oppression than anyone here. She has probably wept more and has certainly done more about correcting it than 99% of the people attacking her.

Why the hell is no-one grasping that your average black person is perfectly capable of deciding if a white person using a word is trying to be offensive or means no harm by it. According to some people the blacks are so thick and uneducated that they can only tell if a word is bad by the colour of the person using it.

I say again either noone has the right to use it or anyone has the right to use it - You cannot have it both ways.

Might I suggest you go back through the thread and read Didge.   We are not discussing discrimination, the discussion is about what happened to black people and the meaning of that word to them.

Sassy wrote:Might I suggest you go back through the thread and read Didge.   We are not discussing discrimination, the discussion is about what happened to black people and the meaning of that word to them.

I just read it and Sphinx does have a point, as we are seeing things in reverse, so please spare me your pointless post on reading

You know what, if you can't look at those pictures and grasp what Ben means, lord help you.

Sassy wrote:Might I suggest you go back through the thread and read Didge.   We are not discussing discrimination, the discussion is about what happened to black people and the meaning of that word to them.

No sassy the discussion is about a white woman who has adopted black children being told what words she can and cannot use because of the colour of her skin.

Sassy wrote:You know what, if you can't look at those pictures and grasp what Ben means, lord help you.

If you cannot read the opening post and grasp that this is about whether the adoptive mother of black children is allowed to use a word or not then you need a damn site more than the lords help.

sphinx wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Kill whitey!!!!! That's what this oppression is all about. Calling someone a racist for using the n-word will lead to rampant murders!

VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!!  ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan:

Do you not see that accepting it as OK will lead down that path?

This is what makes me cry about the human animal - time and time again they will make the same mistakes by the simple course of trying so hard to avoid making them again.

I am very tempted to say, where were you when that picture was taken. Where was whitey? That stuff went on for 300 years. And you, your father, or your father's father ignored it. Certainly in this country that was the case. My father, too. Some strong words passed with us.

I guess people only see their own interests. So, now, when the shoe is on the other foot, you have grave concerns? Well, not to worry...I do believe we on the left will be a little more responsible and respectful of everyone's rights.

sphinx wrote:It starts with criticism.
Then someone thinks hang on if that is a something I can criticise then it is something I can "punish"
The argument that made criticism acceptable will be used to make the "punishment" acceptable

If you are going to say black people have the right to criticise Madonna for saying it how do you say its not OK for them to beat her for saying it?

Or rather when some black guy is in court for beating the shit out of some white guy he heard use the word stands up and shows the picture of his grandfather hanging from a branch and describes his anger and pain is that court going to punish him to the full extent of the law?  What happens if it does?  What message does it send if it does not?

I mean at a rough guess with the dynamics of Madonnas family the word would have come in through her black children - who may have called their white brother it as a term of endearment which their mother copied - it simply became part of the family dynamic which started as a black kid showing full acceptance of his white brother.   I mean has anyone thought to ask the black people closest to the issue what they think was going on, whether they were offended?  If her black children and black friends and their black friends are happy for her to use the word in the way she did who the hell are the rest of us to judge them?

In the words of John Dewey, you are living in scripts and stereotypes that you are writing as you go along. We have laws. We are a civilized nation. We'll deal with criminality when it comes up. We always do. I'm sure we always will.

I am much more concerned about Trayvon Martin, and what happened in this still racist society...what happened that Flordians couldn't protect that child. And after they've got the murderer in a cell, they let him go. Where's your conscience, there, sphinx? Where's the shock? That is far more stunning than the unlikely scenario you have made up.

sphinx wrote:

Sassy wrote:You know what, if you can't look at those pictures and grasp what Ben means, lord help you.

If you cannot read the opening post and grasp that this is about whether the adoptive mother of black children is allowed to use a word or not then you need a damn site more than the lords help.

That's a cop out. You were the one just suggesting that use of the N word by blacks will lead to scenes of violence. Now you are objecting to the subject??

sphinx wrote:Do you not see that accepting it as OK will lead down that path?

This is what makes me cry about the human animal - time and time again they will make the same mistakes by the simple course of trying so hard to avoid making them again.

It starts with criticism.
Then someone thinks hang on if that is a something I can criticise then it is something I can "punish"
The argument that made criticism acceptable will be used to make the "punishment" acceptable

If you are going to say black people have the right to criticise Madonna for saying it how do you say its not OK for them to beat her for saying it?

Or rather when some black guy is in court for beating the shit out of some white guy he heard use the word stands up and shows the picture of his grandfather hanging from a branch and describes his anger and pain is that court going to punish him to the full extent of the law?  What happens if it does?  What message does it send if it does not?

I mean at a rough guess with the dynamics of Madonnas family the word would have come in through her black children - who may have called their white brother it as a term of endearment which their mother copied - it simply became part of the family dynamic which started as a black kid showing full acceptance of his white brother.   I mean has anyone thought to ask the black people closest to the issue what they think was going on, whether they were offended?  If her black children and black friends and their black friends are happy for her to use the word in the way she did who the hell are the rest of us to judge them?

I don't mean that I advocate violence against people who use racial slurs. I understand that it happens and why, and knowing the type of people who use racial slurs, I don't feel a lot of sympathy for them.

Racism is wrong. Criticising racists is the right thing to do. Here in the U.S., the law says you can be as big a bigot as you want, march down the street in KKK robes chanting racial slurs, and what we get to do back is to criticise you for having that hate. It's called "the marketplace of ideas," and it's how free expression works.

I'll be damned before I stop criticising racists and their use of epithets over some fear that someone might take it further than criticism.

Original Quill wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Do you not see that accepting it as OK will lead down that path?

This is what makes me cry about the human animal - time and time again they will make the same mistakes by the simple course of trying so hard to avoid making them again.

I am very tempted to say, where were you when that picture was taken.  Where was whitey?  That stuff went on for 300 years.  And you, your father, or your father's father ignored it.  Certainly in this country that was the case.  My father, too.  Some strong words passed with us.

I guess people only see their own interests.  So, now, when the shoe is on the other foot, you have grave concerns?  Well, not to worry...I do believe we on the left will be a little more responsible and respectful of everyone's rights.

sphinx wrote:It starts with criticism.
Then someone thinks hang on if that is a something I can criticise then it is something I can "punish"
The argument that made criticism acceptable will be used to make the "punishment" acceptable

If you are going to say black people have the right to criticise Madonna for saying it how do you say its not OK for them to beat her for saying it?

Or rather when some black guy is in court for beating the shit out of some white guy he heard use the word stands up and shows the picture of his grandfather hanging from a branch and describes his anger and pain is that court going to punish him to the full extent of the law?  What happens if it does?  What message does it send if it does not?

I mean at a rough guess with the dynamics of Madonnas family the word would have come in through her black children - who may have called their white brother it as a term of endearment which their mother copied - it simply became part of the family dynamic which started as a black kid showing full acceptance of his white brother.   I mean has anyone thought to ask the black people closest to the issue what they think was going on, whether they were offended?  If her black children and black friends and their black friends are happy for her to use the word in the way she did who the hell are the rest of us to judge them?

In the words of John Dewey, you are living in scripts and stereotypes that you are writing as you go along.  We have laws.  We are a civilized nation.  We'll deal with criminality when it comes up.  We always do.  I'm sure we always will.

I am much more concerned about Trayvon Martin, and what happened in this still racist society...what happened that Flordians couldn't protect that child.  And after they've got the murderer in a cell, they let him go.  Where's your conscience, there, sphinx?  Where's the shock?  That is far more stunning than the unlikely scenario you have made up.

Firstly stop making assumptions about my family and ancestors. I repeat I am UK and do not have that history. Also my family is mixed race across 2 generations (quite besides other nationalities among earlier ancestors)

As far as present racist attitudes from white to black including institutionalized ones seen in police forces you may like to go back and have a read of my posts on the thread I started about a missing 3 year old - and where I am screaming about a child being ignored because of his colour and promptly getting attacked as doing something else.

Get this clear - I abhor racism, sexism, sexualism, faithism, or any other ism you can come up. The difference seems to me to be that I do not seek to excuse it from any race - others seem to think that it is excusable in people who have had it and still have it done to them. I do not accept white towards black racism and I do not accept black towards white racism.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

sphinx wrote:Do you not see that accepting it as OK will lead down that path?

This is what makes me cry about the human animal - time and time again they will make the same mistakes by the simple course of trying so hard to avoid making them again.

It starts with criticism.
Then someone thinks hang on if that is a something I can criticise then it is something I can "punish"
The argument that made criticism acceptable will be used to make the "punishment" acceptable

If you are going to say black people have the right to criticise Madonna for saying it how do you say its not OK for them to beat her for saying it?

Or rather when some black guy is in court for beating the shit out of some white guy he heard use the word stands up and shows the picture of his grandfather hanging from a branch and describes his anger and pain is that court going to punish him to the full extent of the law?  What happens if it does?  What message does it send if it does not?

I mean at a rough guess with the dynamics of Madonnas family the word would have come in through her black children - who may have called their white brother it as a term of endearment which their mother copied - it simply became part of the family dynamic which started as a black kid showing full acceptance of his white brother.   I mean has anyone thought to ask the black people closest to the issue what they think was going on, whether they were offended?  If her black children and black friends and their black friends are happy for her to use the word in the way she did who the hell are the rest of us to judge them?

I don't mean that I advocate violence against people who use racial slurs. I understand that it happens and why, and knowing the type of people who use racial slurs, I don't feel a lot of sympathy for them.

Racism is wrong. Criticising racists is the right thing to do. Here in the U.S., the law says you can be as big a bigot as you want, march down the street in KKK robes chanting racial slurs, and what we get to do back is to criticise you for having that hate. It's called "the marketplace of ideas," and it's how free expression works.

I'll be damned before I stop criticising racists and their use of epithets over some fear that someone might take it further than criticism.

I dont expect you to stop criticising racism or racists.

I simply ask was Madonna being racist and if she was not why should she be criticised.

It is my opinion that in this country at least far too much time is spent criticising people for doing things that might be considered racist in certain circumstances by certain people resulting in not enough time being spent asking if what is being criticized actually is racist and no time stopping the actual racism that does go on.

Okay. I for one accept that use of words changes -- it's already changing in this case, quite a bit. I'll also point out that Eminem was under fire for a racist-SOUNDING tirade he made about a decade ago, where he did use the word and said a bunch of other hateful things. He apologised and the mostly-black rap audience accepted his apology and moved on. He said he made the statements in anger over a break-up, and his many black rapper friends said they knew he didn't really feel that way.

I think we will have to get farther from the memories of the things I talked about before the word will truly lose its sting and the mere fact that you're white and you used it will no longer make you sound like a racist. I'm not trying to say Madonna's a racist in this case; I don't think she really is. I do think she was insensitive to the fact that it would offend a lot of people. And really, if you look at her career, this is one of the first offensive things she's ever actually apologized for!

We do need to focus more on real racism. As I alluded to in another thread, if you're poor in America, you're at a disadvantage from the day you're born, and these disadvantages accumulate. Well, because of America's racist history, a lot of poor people are minorities here. It would admittedly be far more constructive do something about equality of education funding for American students, for example, than to scream at Madonna over a tweet.

We do need to focus more on real racism. As I alluded to in another thread, if you're poor in America, you're at a disadvantage from the day you're born, and these disadvantages accumulate. Well, because of America's racist history, a lot of poor people are minorities here. It would admittedly be far more constructive do something about equality of education funding for American students, for example, than to scream at Madonna over a tweet.

Ben if you take out the 'another thread part' you got the start of a magnificant political speech.

veya_victaous wrote:

We do need to focus more on real racism. As I alluded to in another thread, if you're poor in America, you're at a disadvantage from the day you're born, and these disadvantages accumulate. Well, because of America's racist history, a lot of poor people are minorities here. It would admittedly be far more constructive do something about equality of education funding for American students, for example, than to scream at Madonna over a tweet.

Ben if you take out the 'another thread part' you got the start of a magnificant political speech.

I do make speeches ...     

Well that's a good one and the USA could use that advice   

sphinx wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

I am very tempted to say, where were you when that picture was taken.  Where was whitey?  That stuff went on for 300 years.  And you, your father, or your father's father ignored it.  Certainly in this country that was the case.  My father, too.  Some strong words passed with us.

I guess people only see their own interests.  So, now, when the shoe is on the other foot, you have grave concerns?  Well, not to worry...I do believe we on the left will be a little more responsible and respectful of everyone's rights.



In the words of John Dewey, you are living in scripts and stereotypes that you are writing as you go along.  We have laws.  We are a civilized nation.  We'll deal with criminality when it comes up.  We always do.  I'm sure we always will.

I am much more concerned about Trayvon Martin, and what happened in this still racist society...what happened that Flordians couldn't protect that child.  And after they've got the murderer in a cell, they let him go.  Where's your conscience, there, sphinx?  Where's the shock?  That is far more stunning than the unlikely scenario you have made up.

Firstly stop making assumptions about my family and ancestors.  I repeat I am UK and do not have that history.  Also my family is mixed race across 2 generations (quite besides other nationalities among earlier ancestors)

As far as present racist attitudes from white to black including institutionalized ones seen in police forces you may like to go back and have a read of my posts on the thread I started about a missing 3 year old - and where I am screaming about a child being ignored because of his colour and promptly getting attacked as doing something else.

Get this clear - I abhor racism, sexism, sexualism, faithism, or any other ism you can come up.  The difference seems to me to be that I do not seek to excuse it from any race - others seem to think that it is excusable in people who have had it and still have it done to them.  I do not accept white towards black racism and I do not accept black towards white racism.

Then stop defending it.

Ben_Reilly wrote:Okay. I for one accept that use of words changes -- it's already changing in this case, quite a bit. I'll also point out that Eminem was under fire for a racist-SOUNDING tirade he made about a decade ago, where he did use the word and said a bunch of other hateful things. He apologised and the mostly-black rap audience accepted his apology and moved on. He said he made the statements in anger over a break-up, and his many black rapper friends said they knew he didn't really feel that way.

I think we will have to get farther from the memories of the things I talked about before the word will truly lose its sting and the mere fact that you're white and you used it will no longer make you sound like a racist. I'm not trying to say Madonna's a racist in this case; I don't think she really is. I do think she was insensitive to the fact that it would offend a lot of people. And really, if you look at her career, this is one of the first offensive things she's ever actually apologized for!

We do need to focus more on real racism. As I alluded to in another thread, if you're poor in America, you're at a disadvantage from the day you're born, and these disadvantages accumulate. Well, because of America's racist history, a lot of poor people are minorities here. It would admittedly be far more constructive do something about equality of education funding for American students, for example, than to scream at Madonna over a tweet.

Madonna's language is racism.  Call it what  it is.  I don't like appeasing conservatives...it's the one criticism I have of Obama.  When you've got them by the neck, don't let go.

How can anyone find the room for evil language?  If you can find room for evil language, you can find room for evil deeds.  Pretty soon we are over there with andy, watching the men dangle from ropes and saying, "God said we should do this...and besides, he was high yeller, and we was only hanging a white man.  Ain't it all right for a white man to hang a high yeller?"

...Can't understand why some would paint her as being racist, she is anything but..

..She was a major part of the early revolution!

It's not so much Madonna, Phil.  I could really give a shit about her.  I mean she's a hissy-pissy woman that I consider to be totally frivolous and a waste of oxygen, but I have nothing personal against her.

But I don't have any impulse to listen to conservatives.  F-em, they are a waste of resources too.  Put 'em on a ship and send them off to Africa or Brasil....somewhere where there is a lotta land and we won't have to be bothered with their skinny arses ever again. Maybe they could star in upcoming episodes of Naked and Afraid.

Original Quill wrote:It's not so much Madonna, Phil.  I could really give a shit about her.  I mean she's a hissy-pissy woman that I consider to be totally frivolous and a waste of oxygen, but I have nothing personal against her.

But I don't have any impulse to listen to conservatives.  F-em, they are a waste of resources too.  Put 'em on a ship and send them off to Africa or Brasil....somewhere where there is a lotta land and we won't have to be bothered with their skinny arses ever again.  Maybe they could star in upcoming episodes of Naked and Afraid.

She got young people of my age motivated, i was fifteen when she started, there was a political movement in her songs, and even though i was motivated in a political sense before, music did indeed, and has always made the world go round!

racism
/ˈreɪsɪz(ə)m/
noun
noun: racism
1.
the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.

@quill
it is not racism, the word may have racist connotations but where in what Madonna said did it meet the definition of racism. Racism is not just mentioning a race.

xenophobia
/zɛnəˈfəʊbɪə/
noun
noun: xenophobia
1.
intense or irrational dislike or fear of people from other countries.
"racism and xenophobia are steadily growing in Europe"
synonyms:
racism, racialism, racial hatred, ethnocentrism, ethnocentricity

I think it is a stretch to Say Madonna is Xenophobic which is the core of negative Racism..... at worst she is guilty of Sterotyping(which everyone does as it is the way the brain stores information)

stereotype
/ˈstɛrɪə(ʊ)tʌɪp,ˈstɪərɪə(ʊ)-/
noun
noun: stereotype; plural noun: stereotypes
1.
a widely held but fixed and oversimplified image or idea of a particular type of person or thing.
"the stereotype of the woman as the carer"
synonyms:
standard/conventional image, received idea, cliché, hackneyed idea, formula More
"the stereotype of the alcoholic as a down-and-out vagrant"
•
a person or thing that conforms to such an image.
"don't treat anyone as a stereotype"
2.
a relief printing plate cast in a mould made from composed type or an original plate.
verb
verb: stereotype; 3rd person present: stereotypes; past tense: stereotyped; past participle: stereotyped; gerund or present participle: stereotyping
1.
view or represent as a stereotype.
"the city is too easily stereotyped as an industrial wasteland"
synonyms:
typecast, pigeonhole, conventionalize, standardize, categorize, compartmentalize, label, tag

Now I dont care for Madonna either, but making the focus of Racism a word as opposed to focusing on xenophobic attitudes wastes resources that could be put to better use. Much better off making sure everyone knows the morons in Ghost Costumes and burning crosses are not only Wrong but Evil.

AND a Cultural test for you..
Can A French man call someone that you would call black a 'niger'?

I don't think for one moment that Madonna was racist. I think she was very stupid and misjudged what that world signifies to so many black people.

Sassy wrote:I don't think for one moment that Madonna was racist.   I think she was very stupid and misjudged what that world signifies to so many black people.  

Agreed it was definitly cultural insensitive, and people expect better of her.

What is racism?  If you are perpetuating an established--which Madonna is--dialogue, which includes a racist slur, it really doesn't matter what your precise and immediate motives are.  You  are perpetuating racism.

Original Quill wrote:What is racism?  the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics, abilities, or qualities specific to that race, especially so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.
If you are perpetuating an established--which Madonna is--dialogue, which includes a racist slur, it really doesn't matter what your precise and immediate motives are.  You  are perpetuating racism.
Actually she is not she is using it affectionately towards her offspring, if anything she obviously applies POSITIVE connotations to the word niger as she uses it to complement her son. She actually demonstrates a highly progressive attitude/subconscious as has stored it as a positive stereotype.

Also Answer my question about the French man       

It is not international established, you are being cultural insensitive.   


         
I'm Resisting Americanisation...
but we'll take some Mexicans if they promise to open restaurants  :D  we cant get good Mexican food her      

Perhaps we are focusing too much on the people who use the word, and not the variety and ambiguity of its meaning.  The term has an insulting meaning...generally associated with racists and racism.  But it also has a co-opted meaning, that blacks themselves have taken, to mean a kind of friendly, but taunting or jabbing pronoun.  Like, for example, Hey clown, don't take the last beer!

Co-option is an interesting process in language.  To take an expression as your own and give it your new meaning, is to mock the originator and original meaning, while deflecting the malice of the original meaning.  Richard Nixon was a master of co-option, taking the "V" hand (out) sign--originally meaning peace--and turning it around to mean success.  Or the lefties themselves--taking the American flag, originally a symbol of pride and strength, and turning it around to be an article of hip clothing.  It's both a taking over the expression, and showing irreverence for it's original connotation.

I sense that kind of dynamic in the use of the term niggah by blacks.  They have taken the word back, at once a counter-insult to the racists and a defusing of the original meaning.

What does that mean in terms of Madonna using the term?  Well, she's white...the co-option doesn't work with a white, because a part of the reinterpretation process is that a black is taking it away from whites.  The new meaning is taken in the circumstances in which the word is used, and not just the denotation.

So, once again, the meaning is not just in the word, but in the context.

Original Quill wrote:Perhaps we are focusing too much on the people who use the word, and not the variety and ambiguity of its meaning.  The term has an insulting meaning...generally associated with racists and racism.  But it also has a co-opted meaning, that blacks themselves have taken, to mean a kind of friendly, but taunting or jabbing pronoun.  Like, for example, Hey clown, don't take the last beer!

Co-option is an interesting process in language.  To take an expression as your own and give it your new meaning, is to mock the originator and original meaning, while deflecting the malice of the original meaning.  Richard Nixon was a master of co-option, taking the "V" hand (out) sign--originally meaning peace--and turning it around to mean success.  Or the lefties themselves--taking the American flag, originally a symbol of pride and strength, and turning it around to be an article of hip clothing.  It's both a taking over the expression, and showing irreverence for it's original connotation.

I sense that kind of dynamic in the use of the term niggah by blacks.  They have taken the word back, at once a counter-insult to the racists and a defusing of the original meaning.

What does that mean in terms of Madonna using the term?  Well, she's white...the co-option doesn't work with a white, because a part of the reinterpretation process is that a black is taking it away from whites.  The new meaning is taken in the circumstances in which the word is used, and not just the denotation.

So, once again, the meaning is not just in the word, but in the context.

One problem with that - the racist insult is not the original meaning either - the racists simply co opted a word someone else had already co opted - 18th century saw the term having similar connotations to todays "alright mate"

The word has changed more than once already - it is changing again - in one hundred years time it will mean something different again.

sphinx wrote:

Original Quill wrote:Perhaps we are focusing too much on the people who use the word, and not the variety and ambiguity of its meaning.  The term has an insulting meaning...generally associated with racists and racism.  But it also has a co-opted meaning, that blacks themselves have taken, to mean a kind of friendly, but taunting or jabbing pronoun.  Like, for example, Hey clown, don't take the last beer!

Co-option is an interesting process in language.  To take an expression as your own and give it your new meaning, is to mock the originator and original meaning, while deflecting the malice of the original meaning.  Richard Nixon was a master of co-option, taking the "V" hand (out) sign--originally meaning peace--and turning it around to mean success.  Or the lefties themselves--taking the American flag, originally a symbol of pride and strength, and turning it around to be an article of hip clothing.  It's both a taking over the expression, and showing irreverence for it's original connotation.

I sense that kind of dynamic in the use of the term niggah by blacks.  They have taken the word back, at once a counter-insult to the racists and a defusing of the original meaning.

What does that mean in terms of Madonna using the term?  Well, she's white...the co-option doesn't work with a white, because a part of the reinterpretation process is that a black is taking it away from whites.  The new meaning is taken in the circumstances in which the word is used, and not just the denotation.

So, once again, the meaning is not just in the word, but in the context.

One problem with that - the racist insult is not the original meaning either - the racists simply co opted a word someone else had already co opted - 18th century saw the term having similar connotations to todays "alright mate"

The word has changed more than once already - it is changing again - in one hundred years time it will mean something different again.

Yeah...yeah, I've discussed that with others too. The term comes from the Latin, to mean Black. Etymologically, it's a value-neutral term.

It evolved into a derogatory meaning sometime in the post-Civil War days. It went something like this: Black = slave (pre-Civil War) = second-class person (segregation) = worthless person (today). At least that's the etymology of the white use of the term. As I said, the blacks have co-opted the term.

Original Quill wrote:

sphinx wrote:

One problem with that - the racist insult is not the original meaning either - the racists simply co opted a word someone else had already co opted - 18th century saw the term having similar connotations to todays "alright mate"

The word has changed more than once already - it is changing again - in one hundred years time it will mean something different again.

Yeah...yeah, I've discussed that with others too.  The term comes from the Latin, to mean Black.  Etymologically, it's a value-neutral term.  

It evolved into a derogatory meaning sometime in the post-Civil War days.  It went something like this: Black = slave (pre-Civil War) = second-class person (segregation) = worthless person (today).  At least that's the etymology of the white use of the term.  As I said, the blacks have co-opted the term.

But Madonna was not using it as a white she was using it as the mother of black children. Presumably she uses is as a term of endearment to her black child with their consent and approval - so is she going to be expected to use a different term to her white children just based on their colour.

Would you like to tell me how you explain to a child that you cannot use the same word you use to show affection to their black sibling to show affection to them?

sphinx wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Yeah...yeah, I've discussed that with others too.  The term comes from the Latin, to mean Black.  Etymologically, it's a value-neutral term.  

It evolved into a derogatory meaning sometime in the post-Civil War days.  It went something like this: Black = slave (pre-Civil War) = second-class person (segregation) = worthless person (today).  At least that's the etymology of the white use of the term.  As I said, the blacks have co-opted the term.

But Madonna was not using it as a white she was using it as the mother of black children.  Presumably she uses is as a term of endearment to her black child with their consent and approval - so is she going to be expected to use a different term to her white children just based on their colour.

Would you like to tell me how you explain to a child that you cannot use the same word you use to show affection to their black sibling to show affection to them?

Why on earth would she use it with her black children, as they probably never heard it before they went to America?

Sassy wrote:

sphinx wrote:

But Madonna was not using it as a white she was using it as the mother of black children.  Presumably she uses is as a term of endearment to her black child with their consent and approval - so is she going to be expected to use a different term to her white children just based on their colour.

Would you like to tell me how you explain to a child that you cannot use the same word you use to show affection to their black sibling to show affection to them?

Why on earth would she use it with her black children, as they probably never heard it before they went to America?

Uh the bit about black people reclaiming the word? It is most likely that they bought it home to her - perhaps calling each other it, or they had friends around who used it. You remember when you heard your child called a nickname they like and you called your child by it as an affectionate tease? That it may actually become something the child is called at home by you?

sphinx wrote:

Sassy wrote:

Why on earth would she use it with her black children, as they probably never heard it before they went to America?

Uh the bit about black people reclaiming the word?  It is most likely that they bought it home to her - perhaps calling each other it, or they had friends around who used it.  You remember when you heard your child called a nickname they like and you called your child by it as an affectionate tease?  That it may actually become something the child is called at home by you?

Not what I meant at all, they are adopted african children, not brought up with the word, and it doesn't have the same meaning to them.

Sassy wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Uh the bit about black people reclaiming the word?  It is most likely that they bought it home to her - perhaps calling each other it, or they had friends around who used it.  You remember when you heard your child called a nickname they like and you called your child by it as an affectionate tease?  That it may actually become something the child is called at home by you?

Not what I meant at all, they are adopted african children, not brought up with the word, and it doesn't have the same meaning to them.

What about the people they go to school with and socialize with? That is my point. There is a high probability they have been called it outside the home by other black people in a friendly manner - and then have taken this friendly manner back home with them where it worked its way into family usage.

Original Quill wrote:

sphinx wrote:

One problem with that - the racist insult is not the original meaning either - the racists simply co opted a word someone else had already co opted - 18th century saw the term having similar connotations to todays "alright mate"

The word has changed more than once already - it is changing again - in one hundred years time it will mean something different again.

Yeah...yeah, I've discussed that with others too. The term comes from the Latin, to mean Black. Etymologically, it's a value-neutral term.

It evolved into a derogatory meaning sometime in the post-Civil War days. It went something like this: Black = slave (pre-Civil War) = second-class person (segregation) = worthless person (today). At least that's the etymology of the white use of the term. As I said, the blacks have co-opted the term.

are you honestly saying Madonna was calling her son a worthless person?
And How US-centric of you? You do realise Your being Racist TOO. oh everyone in the world MUST respect what happened in the USA, we cant have our OWN history ALL white people acted that way. What Your doing DOES meet the definition of Racism.

And Niger Doesn't have negative connotation to Africans only to 'Americans with dark skin'. You've been out of Africa longer than Aussies have been out of the UK, if you were born in the USA you are Americans. Many Internationals have a higher opinion of Black Americans than White ones, So your whole Argument is Racist US-centric drivel.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

sphinx wrote:And yet it seems acceptable for blacks to use it.

Yes, it is.

Don't you find that strange. It is a genuinely offensive word. You would find it strange if friends were to call each other C--nts and to do so in front of others rather ill mannered.

That's one of my mysteries with you lefties you can square off the use of a terrible word by one colour but not another. Isn't making such an allowance inherently racist?

Clarkson wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

sphinx wrote:And yet it seems acceptable for blacks to use it.

Yes, it is.

Don't you find that strange. It is a genuinely offensive word. You would find it strange if friends were to call each other C--nts and to do so in front of others rather ill mannered.

That's one of my mysteries with you lefties you can square off the use of a terrible word by one colour but not another. Isn't making such an allowance inherently racist?

Actually, from what I understand there are many friends who talk to one another like that -- I noted above me and my friend calling each other "pigfucker" in a perfectly amiable way. I find nothing strange about it at all.

Is it racist of me to allow that it means something different when black people use the n-word to refer to each other, than when white people use it to refer to black people? I don't see how. I don't think black people, for example, are being racist toward themselves, of course. Similarly, and sort of in imitation of black people, I'll sometimes refer to my white friends as "cracker," a racial slur coined by black people toward whites. They of course don't think I'm racist against my own race when I do so.

I am fascinated and bewildered by how black people using the word seems to be such a big problem for so many on the right. I honestly, transparently do not see the wrong in it. I honestly, transparently do not understand the various explanations offered to me for why I should see it as wrong. Words take on different meanings when uttered by different people in different positions within society; I thought everyone basically accepted this as human nature.

For example, if I were to state, "We should immediately drop nuclear bombs on Iran," would it not be quite different if Obama were to say the same thing? To me, it's the same sort of phenomenon.

I guess the best way I can put it is, "nigger" in the United States is a pejorative term for a black person implying that the speaker hates black people. When spoken by a black person, it cannot logically have the same meaning unless you propose that the black person hates black people. Thus, it doesn't have the connotation of hate that it does when spoken by non-black people (and it's not just white people who have used it against black people; I've heard it spoken by Latinos and Asians as well).

I hope I'm making sense. I'm genuinely trying to explain my position here and to understand yours. That, for me, is far more pleasant and desirable than engaging in a shouting match.