Leave/Brexit - the Mass debate

by Andy Wed Jun 22, 2016 12:49 am

Anyone else think that Sadiq Khan was more passionate than he has ever been in thee past?

And wasn't Ruth Davidson impressive. bloody hell, if she was elected in place of Cameron, she might get my vote. A super performance and she shot every /brexit arguement down in flames.

by Guest Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:19 pm

They were both very good, made Boris and Co look utterly stupid.

by HoratioTarr Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:46 pm

sassy wrote:They were both very good, made Boris and Co look utterly stupid.

Yeah, that's why Boris got a standing ovation.

by nicko Wed Jun 22, 2016 1:48 pm

I will vote to leave, I watched Cameron stand there and lie through his teeth saying if we stay we can change the EU from the inside.

They will just kick his arse like they did the last time he went cap in hand and came back with nothing.

by Guest Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:05 pm

Leave/Brexit - the Mass debate 5762ba972200002d00f81522

Leave/Brexit - the Mass debate 5762bb6615000030001b9c41

Just for fun

by Guest Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:07 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
sassy wrote:They were both very good, made Boris and Co look utterly stupid.

Yeah, that's why Boris got a standing ovation.

There were obviously a lot of dim, easily manipulated people in the room who like cowtowing to buffoons Twisted Evil

by eddie Wed Jun 22, 2016 2:36 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
sassy wrote:They were both very good, made Boris and Co look utterly stupid.

Yeah, that's why Boris got a standing ovation.

They all put good points across but the biggest cheer was after the Tory woman said something or other and the leave campaign went nuts.

by Tommy Monk Wed Jun 22, 2016 4:33 pm

sassy wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

Yeah, that's why Boris got a standing ovation.

There were obviously a lot of dim, easily manipulated people in the room who like cowtowing to buffoons

Idiots like you will be cheering the Remainians...

by Major Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:15 pm

sassy wrote:
HoratioTarr wrote:

Yeah, that's why Boris got a standing ovation.

There were obviously a lot of dim, easily manipulated people in the room who like cowtowing to buffoons

You see them in all walks of life and worse.

by Major Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:16 pm

I VOTE BREXIT OUT OUT OUT.

by Ben Reilly Wed Jun 22, 2016 8:33 pm

The Bloomberg Brexit Watch tracker is giving it just a 34 percent likelihood the UK will leave: http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2016-brexit-watch/

by eddie Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:14 pm

As if that's a suprise Rolling Eyes

by Raggamuffin Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:16 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:The Bloomberg Brexit Watch tracker is giving it just a 34 percent likelihood the UK will leave: http://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2016-brexit-watch/

I agree. I said that it would be a 60% - 65% vote to stay. I could be wrong though.

by Guest Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:17 pm

Not that i want it to happen, but I think the people will vote to leave.
They have the desire more to leave than those voting to stay and wil turn out on near full numbers. You also have what ben has done, people see a link and think its not even worth bothering to vote. As people are predicting to vote to stay. Such things can have effects on voters to then think they do not have to bother. Where as those voting to leave think their lives depend on leaving.
Time will tell and look how the exit polls got the last election badly wrong

by Ben Reilly Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:45 pm

Well, if Britons vote to leave, at least it won't be just Americans anymore not giving a shit about the effects of their actions on the rest of the world ...

by eddie Wed Jun 22, 2016 9:50 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Well, if Britons vote to leave, at least it won't be just Americans anymore not giving a shit about the effects of their actions on the rest of the world ...

Why do we have to be in sat in Europe, when we can care about the 'effects of our actions' from our living room, in England?
I can care wherever I am....can't we all?

by Ben Reilly Wed Jun 22, 2016 10:22 pm

eddie wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:Well, if Britons vote to leave, at least it won't be just Americans anymore not giving a shit about the effects of their actions on the rest of the world ...

Why do we have to be in sat in Europe, when we can care about the 'effects of our actions' from our living room, in England?
I can care wherever I am....can't we all?

Just sayin' ... https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2016/06/18/how-brexit-could-hurt-america/

by eddie Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:05 pm

The Wash post can kiss my behind.

by Tommy Monk Wed Jun 22, 2016 11:49 pm

Wash post waffle...

by veya_victaous Thu Jun 23, 2016 2:25 am

washington post is ust sayign what ALLA economists are saying

it is the Obvious consequence
Suggesting it won’t is ludicrous

It's like saying 'the car will drive fine if we take off all the wheels'
Rolling Eyes

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 23, 2016 3:03 am

No... voting to remain is like choosing to 'continue to be passengers locked in the back of a minicab driven by someone with a wonky satnav and taken to a destination we don't want to go'...!!!

by veya_victaous Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:20 am

@TM
voting to stay mean working to make a modern nation like the USA, Canada, Australia, China India, Brazil or Russia. Just to name a few.

voting to leave is voting to become 3rd world, it's not up to you. all the money is already leaving and has said will leave if London is not an EU city Because there is NO Point running a business in the Uk if it is not a EU member.

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:29 am

All those countries you mentioned are independent sovereign nations in complete control of all their borders/laws/rules/regulations through their democracies...

Leaving the eu federal dictatorship is the only way to like those you mentioned...!

by veya_victaous Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:49 am

Tommy Monk wrote:All those countries you mentioned are independent sovereign nations in complete control of all their borders/laws/rules/regulations through their democracies...

Leaving the eu federal dictatorship is the only way to like those you mentioned...!

No we are all FEDERATIONS OF STATES we all have a FEDERAL GOV'T like the EU governance PLUS state governments that are like the UK government.

the EU is meant to be the Sovereign nation, the federation of States.
The old world nations are Just States in Reality that belong in the Europe Federation (the EU)
(I know you lot love to live in the past but really now you are just states)
that is the model you are supposed to be moving, again NOT an experiment you are copying successful nations.
but too many hill shepherd primitives that think the UK is more than a State in the modern geopolitics.

Australian States were completely separate until 1901
the brexit people have the same cowardly fears as the opposition to federation here 120 years ago
Even the concerns about the USA (having showed the potential for civil war in federation)
In hindsight are miniscule compared to the Actual real life gains.

The individual colonies, Victoria excepted, were somewhat wary of Federation. Politicians from the smaller colonies, in particular, disliked the very idea of delegating power to a national government; they feared that any such government would inevitably be dominated by the more populous New South Wales and Victoria. Queensland, for its part, worried that the advent of national legislation (see White Australia Policy) would restrict the importing of kanaka labourers, thereby jeopardising its sugar cane industry.

These were not the only concerns of those resistant to federation. Smaller colonies also worried about the abolition of tariffs, which would deprive them of a large proportion of their revenue, and leave their commerce at the mercy of the larger states. New South Wales, traditionally free-trade in its outlook, wanted to be satisfied that the federation's tariff policy would not be protectionist. Victorian Premier James Service described fiscal union as "the lion in the way" of federation.

A further fundamental issue was how to distribute the excess customs duties from the central government to the states. For the larger colonies there was the possibility (which eventually became an actuality) that they could be required to subsidise the struggling economies of Tasmania, South Australia and Western Australia.

Even without the concerns, there was debate about the form of government that a federation would take. Experience of other federations was less than inspiring. In particular, the United States had experienced the traumatic Civil War.

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 23, 2016 4:53 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:All those countries you mentioned are independent sovereign nations in complete control of all their borders/laws/rules/regulations through their democracies...

Leaving the eu federal dictatorship is the only way to like those you mentioned...!

No we are all FEDERATIONS OF STATES we all have a FEDERAL GOV'T like the EU governance PLUS state governments that are like the UK government.

the EU is meant to be the Sovereign nation, the federation of States.
The old world nations are Just States in Reality that belong in the Europe Federation (the EU)
(I know you lot love to live in the past but really now you are just states)
that is the model you are supposed to be moving, again NOT an experiment you are copying successful nations.
but too many hill shepherd primitives that think the UK is more than a State in the modern geopolitics.

Pure bullshit!!!

by veya_victaous Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:17 am

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation_of_Australia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federation
the only one that was Wrong is China

green is federations, blue is unitary states (like the UK wants)

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:26 am

Big land areas but all individual countries...

And only a few compared to total number of countries in world...

The eu cluster fuck political dictatorship is the odd one out. So much so that it needs ending!!!

by veya_victaous Thu Jun 23, 2016 5:59 am

the EU could be an individual country too
that is the point!!!
we were 6 unitary states that fored a Federation
the USA started as 13 unitary states that joined a federation (now up 52)

WE HAVE ALL ALREADY DONE THIS!!!
you guys just really suck at it.

nothing to stop the EU doing the same as the rest of the western world and joining the little unitary states like the Uk into a national federation. it has top start somenwhere and as you are already centuries behind the rest of the west, it really is now or never. andf if never then you relevance stops.

by Tommy Monk Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:15 am

We are already the UK!!!

by veya_victaous Thu Jun 23, 2016 6:19 am

yes you are in the unitary state of the UK.. what is your point? Suspect

to be like the new world nations however you need to become a 'Federation of States'.

by Ben Reilly Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:19 am

I hear the younger Brits want to remain in the EU, while those who yearn for a nation with no "foreigners" want to leave, hoping it will roll back British history about 60 years.

Like I've said, there aren't any real "fiscal issues" voters. Fiscal issues get rolled into social issues, and the leave voters have some notion that leaving will make Britain what it once was (culturally homogeneous and pasty white). Ain't going to happen. As Madonna said, the only constant is change. I'll add that those who can't embrace and take advantage of change are evolutionarily extinct, whether they've realized it yet or not.

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:49 am

So is voting to leave a leftie thing? After all, leaving would be a change wouldn't it? It's right wingers who want things to stay the same, yes?

by Ben Reilly Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:52 am

Raggamuffin wrote:So is voting to leave a leftie thing? After all, leaving would be a change wouldn't it? It's right wingers who want things to stay the same, yes?

No, but you're making a very common mistake of the right. Right-wingers feel that there are rules that must apply in every situation. Lefties believe that sometimes a hammer is good (for hammering in nails) and sometimes bad (when used to bash another person's skull, for example).

I realize that for right-wingers, this is very confusing. But for left-wingers, it's simply a matter of choosing the best possible outcome for the greatest number of people. Not a hard task for us, but your mileage may vary.

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 23, 2016 7:59 am

Ben Reilly wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:So is voting to leave a leftie thing? After all, leaving would be a change wouldn't it? It's right wingers who want things to stay the same, yes?

No, but you're making a very common mistake of the right. Right-wingers feel that there are rules that must apply in every situation. Lefties believe that sometimes a hammer is good (for hammering in nails) and sometimes bad (when used to bash another person's skull, for example).

I realize that for right-wingers, this is very confusing. But for left-wingers, it's simply a matter of choosing the best possible outcome for the greatest number of people. Not a hard task for us, but your mileage may vary.

Are you suggesting I'm right wing Ben? Laughing

I feel that this country needs a bit of a shake up and that's not going to happen whilst we're in the EU. We'll just sleep walk into giving up our identity.

by Ben Reilly Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:01 am

Yeah, you're right wing. Only right wingers worry that much about "giving up our identity," left wingers realize that identity changes constantly.

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:03 am

Ben Reilly wrote:Yeah, you're right wing. Only right wingers worry that much about "giving up our identity," left wingers realize that identity changes constantly.

So you think that indigenous people in all countries are naturally right wing then? They generally want to keep their identity don't they? They identify as being part of a particular group and they often complain about being mistreated in the past by "invaders".

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:04 am

Ben, I was talking to a friend about it, and he thinks that if we leave, the UK will veer to the far right. I'm not sure why because there's a bit of a trend that way in some EU countries anyway. Does it make sense to you?

by Guest Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:06 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:

No, but you're making a very common mistake of the right. Right-wingers feel that there are rules that must apply in every situation. Lefties believe that sometimes a hammer is good (for hammering in nails) and sometimes bad (when used to bash another person's skull, for example).

I realize that for right-wingers, this is very confusing. But for left-wingers, it's simply a matter of choosing the best possible outcome for the greatest number of people. Not a hard task for us, but your mileage may vary.

Are you suggesting I'm right wing Ben?

I feel that this country needs a bit of a shake up and that's not going to happen whilst we're in the EU. We'll just sleep walk into giving up our identity.

Of course you are rw. Look at your views on benefits etc

by Ben Reilly Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:06 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:Yeah, you're right wing. Only right wingers worry that much about "giving up our identity," left wingers realize that identity changes constantly.

So you think that indigenous people in all countries are naturally right wing then? They generally want to keep their identity don't they? They identify as being part of a particular group and they often complain about being mistreated in the past by "invaders".

You're not being invaded. And ... the native Americans were happy to have Europeans among them, until they realized the Europeans were out to enslave them and claim the land as their own.

I don't think the Polish or Romanians have quite risen to that level, do you?

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:10 am

Ben Reilly wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

So you think that indigenous people in all countries are naturally right wing then? They generally want to keep their identity don't they? They identify as being part of a particular group and they often complain about being mistreated in the past by "invaders".

You're not being invaded. And ... the native Americans were happy to have Europeans among them, until they realized the Europeans were out to enslave them and claim the land as their own.

I don't think the Polish or Romanians have quite risen to that level, do you?

That's not really the point. The point is that they didn't want anyone changing their way of life or their identity. That's how some Brits feel about the EU and freedom of movement. You have a lot of sympathy with the NI Republicans, yes? They want to be united with Ireland and don't want to be British, so I would say that has a lot to do with their identity. How does that fit with your argument?

by Guest Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:11 am

Ben Reilly wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

So you think that indigenous people in all countries are naturally right wing then? They generally want to keep their identity don't they? They identify as being part of a particular group and they often complain about being mistreated in the past by "invaders".

You're not being invaded. And ... the native Americans were happy to have Europeans among them, until they realized the Europeans were out to enslave them and claim the land as their own.

I don't think the Polish or Romanians have quite risen to that level, do you?

Some were happy, others were not happy about the European settlers.

The Europeans did not enslave them either, but ethnically cleansed them, which was appalling.

So lets get the hostory right please Rolling Eyes

by Ben Reilly Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:14 am

I'm talking about the welcome European settlers received from the original Americans. The vast majority were fine with new people coming in -- there was plenty of land, after all. Once they realized the Europeans thought they could take it all, the trouble started.

by Guest Thu Jun 23, 2016 8:21 am

Ben Reilly wrote:I'm talking about the welcome European settlers received from the original Americans. The vast majority were fine with new people coming in -- there was plenty of land, after all. Once they realized the Europeans thought they could take it all, the trouble started.

That is simply not true, some were welcoming and others were not welcoming
I agree with your last poiint on those who were too trusting.
Mind you how many people argue and try to dehumanize Americans, with the intent and purpose to see America cease to exist?

by Guest Thu Jun 23, 2016 9:54 am

This spoof is hilarious

lol!

What is so bad about this, is that so much of what is said is badly true, its embarressing for th EU

by Raggamuffin Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:11 am

Haha! I like that. lol!

Those guys will probably be arrested. rabbit

by Guest Thu Jun 23, 2016 10:15 am

Raggamuffin wrote:Haha! I like that.

Those guys will probably be arrested.

by Syl Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:15 am

Is it true that even if the country votes overwhelmingly to leave, MP's can override this and we will stay in?

My prediction...no matter what the people vote, the result will declare IN.
Do I think the vote can be rigged....of course I do. Twisted Evil

by Andy Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:45 am

I think the Remain party have rigged the weather to favour them .
At least that is what the Brexiteers conspiracy theorists will tell us tomorrow.

by nicko Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:53 am

Handy, do you think flap are trying to fix it so that we leave?

You have accused them of every thing else.

by Andy Thu Jun 23, 2016 11:59 am

It is meltdown over there. All those Cameron arse lickers have to a man turned against him.
From being the best thing since sliced bread 15 months ago to a figure of hatred and ridicule.
The posters there are so easily led and swayed by a traitor to his own party.
Dean baa's, his forum flock follow .

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