The truth about the eu free movement rules and why non eu immigration is so high

First topic message reminder :

"...It gives EEA citizens the right of free movement and residence across the European Economic Area, as long as they are not an undue burden on the country of residence and have comprehensive health insurance.[1] This right also extends to close family members that are not EEA citizens.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Movement_Directive


So it looks like non eu nationals can also get here under eu free movement rules!!!


We must vote leave to end the madness and regain control of our country!!!

Piss off twat...

Shame I found it eh Tommy.   Next time, put a link

No shame about anything... as I have said already... I never claimed I wrote it!!!


Now the points still stand!!!

By not putting a link on, you are claiming it is yours.   Simple as that.   As I said, next time put the link on otherwise it's plagiarism.

TYPICAL ol' Tommy...

Not only stupid, but plain lazy on top of it..

By not putting a link means I just forgot to put on a link...


The points still stand!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:By not putting a link means I just forgot to put on a link...
The points still stand!!!

Not putting a 'LINK' is a Foromotion violation of RULES; your continued refusing to edit your own post is as you do best:  flipping your ignorance and shoving your finger up your butt just to prove how utterly belligerent you can be!

I'll put you and your sorry arse back on ignore ...you have zero value and as with that plagiarized post --- it's a 'BLOG' and it's has ZERO VALUE and there are already 2 sections where you've been proven WRONG! 

But   your lies and false documents is growing irksome, so why bother

Irn Bru wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Anybody...!?

I don't intend to go throught that whole list so I'll just pick one. Show me the evidence that the Scout SV will be built in Spain and that ALL the stel on t will come from Sweden.

That contract was bid for by BAE SYSTEM in Newcastle and they were given the nod by the Labout government but the Tories gave preferred bidder status to American company General Dynamics.

That's just for the record.

And the grant over Cadbury was a grant (loan) to Poland to build a factory using some funds from the EU regional devvelopment fundt and had nothing to do with Cadburys who took up the option to move into that factory. Cadbury was bought by American company Kraft who undertook to keep the Britol factory open when the sale went through and renaged on the committment.

THe UK also gets finding fro that very samr source for development in the UK.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/british-armys-new-fighting-vehicles-7928358

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

I don't intend to go throught that whole list so I'll just pick one. Show me the evidence that the Scout SV will be built in Spain and that ALL the stel on t will come from Sweden.

That contract was bid for by BAE SYSTEM in Newcastle and they were given the nod by the Labout government but the Tories gave preferred bidder status to American company General Dynamics.

That's just for the record.

And the grant over Cadbury was a grant (loan) to Poland to build a factory using some funds from the EU regional devvelopment fundt and had nothing to do with Cadburys who took up the option to move into that factory. Cadbury was bought by American company Kraft who undertook to keep the Britol factory open when the sale went through and renaged on the committment.

THe UK also gets finding fro that very samr source for development in the UK.

I ALSO noticed that Dyson is on that list, too...

Contrary to what that list suggests, Dyson has long had a factory in Malaysia (the Dyson boss may be British based, and do the development work over there, but the records show that his first large scale mass production of vacuums were being manufactured there in Malaysia..).

Dyson product sold in Oz, NZ and the Americas has apparently always been sourced from their Malaysian factory..

So, if Dyson has moved production out of Britain, that would mean that they are expanding their production there, not setting up as if from scratch..

A lot of large-scale manufacturers have rationalised their production into fewer and bigger factories over recent decades. There are no whitegoods or television manufacturers in Australia these days, and from next year, no passenger cars will be built here..
Even over in the US and Canada, some automobile component manufacturers have closed local facilities, while expanding production in their Brazilian or Mexican factories.
Japanese manufacturers have set up factories in Taiwan, Korea and China..
Mazda/Ford and Isuzu/GM cartels have built factories in Thailand to produce their pickup style utilities and 4WDs.

BMW has had a factory in South Africa for a couple of decades..
Tommy's list looks like it's likely sourced from a UKIP or BNP website (?).            

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-98618/800-jobs-axed-Dyson-moves-Far-East.html


And moved business to Malta tax haven...


http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/news/article-2445672/James-Dyson-ready-bring-3-billion-empire-home-UK-stint-Malta.html

As I said... the points still stand!!!

4EVER2 wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:By not putting a link means I just forgot to put on a link...
The points still stand!!!

Not putting a 'LINK' is a Foromotion violation of RULES; your continued refusing to edit your own post is as you do best:  flipping your ignorance and shoving your finger up your butt just to prove how utterly belligerent you can be!

I'll put you and your sorry arse back on ignore ...you have zero value and as with that plagiarized post --- it's a 'BLOG' and it's has ZERO VALUE and there are already 2 sections where you've been proven WRONG! 

But   your lies and false documents is growing irksome, so why bother

2 bits of the list have been proven wrong...!?


No... 2 bits were questioned and I have proved them to be right!!!


See my 2 posts above where links are provided to prove the claims are true!!!


THE POINTS STILL STAND!!!

Hi folks. I know this is a bit late in this topic but never mind, here goes.

I heard on the news today that independant In-Out votes showed it was neck and neck. But it came to my mind that where a town has an extreme number of migrants taking jobs and housing, such as a town near me which has been highlighted on Tv, the local people will vote out. And I should imagine that the majority of NHS and other health workers will vote out.

Roll on Thursday, it's going to be very interesting.

Think you will find you are wrong Stardesk and most NHS staff are voting remain, and they will be up to their ears in shit if we leave.

sassy wrote:Think you will find you are wrong Stardesk and most NHS staff are voting remain, and they will be up to their ears in shit if we leave.

Why?

Next week’s vote on membership of the EU has huge implications for health and science. In an unusual move, Fiona Godlee and colleagues explain why The BMJ believes we should stay in

Some readers may wonder why The BMJ is intervening in a political debate. We think this issue transcends politics and has such huge ramifications for health and society that it is important to state our case.
Over the past five weeks we have published a series of articles looking at the main arguments for leaving or remaining in the EU in terms of their effects on health and the NHS.1 As always with our news and features coverage, we have strived to maintain neutrality, but as the series has progressed it has become increasingly obvious that the arguments for remaining in the EU are overwhelming, and that now is not the time for balance.
The BMJ is in good company. Over the past few months a slew of health experts have come out on the remain side. These include Simon Stevens, chief executive of NHS England2; Paul Nurse, chief executive of the Francis Crick Institute3; Simon Wessely, president of the Royal College of Psychiatrists4; and just last week, with a change of heart, Sarah Wollaston, chair of the parliamentary select committee on health.5 In a “call for views” organised by the Royal College of Physicians the opinions were overwhelmingly in favour of staying in.6 In fact, we realised that we could not name one prominent national medical, research, or health organisation that has sided with Brexit.

Leave’s untruths

The Leave campaign’s arguments on the NHS are simply wrong. Its constant claim that the UK sends £350m7 to the EU every week has been blown out of the water by a host of financial and economic experts, including the UK Statistics Authority,8 the Institute for Fiscal Studies,9 and the Treasury select committee.10
The Leave Campaign claims that if the UK remains in the EU, the NHS will be swamped by immigrants, desperate to make use of our free health service. A London School of Economics review11 of the impact of immigration on the UK found that, because EU migrants tend to be young they make less use of health services, and that some may even return home for healthcare because they can get quicker access to specialists.12
But perhaps the most laughable untruth is that the NHS would be safer in their hands. As John Major said when interviewed on the BBC’s Andrew Marr Show, the NHS is about as safe with the prominent Vote Leave campaigners “as a pet hamster with a python.”13

Damage to finances and influence

So what would happen to the NHS if we left the EU? Last week the Economist Intelligence Unit calculated that, because of the impact of Brexit on the wider economy, healthcare spending per head would be around £135 lower by 2020 than it would be if the UK stayed in the EU.14 This is on top of the £22bn in efficiency savings the NHS is still expected to deliver by 2020. At a time when the NHS is already overstretched we should not risk putting it under further financial strain.
The NHS relies on overseas doctors and nurses—both from within and beyond the EU. One in 10 of the doctors working in our health service was trained in another EU country.1 Those already here would not be sent home tomorrow if we pulled up the drawbridge, but leaving the EU would jeopardise the free movement of people on which our health service depends.
London is home to the European Medicines Agency, which would have to move if the Brexit campaigners win on 23 June. Playing host to the agency gives the UK clout1 in regulatory affairs and also makes the UK an attractive place for US and Asian firms to base the European arm of their clinical trials. And while we may still get access to research funding if we quit the EU, we would no longer have influence in shaping the research agenda.1
Doctors have a duty to engage in this debate, especially those still in training. Junior doctors have—rightly—spent huge amounts of time and energy campaigning over their new contracts. They are currently poring over the small print of the revised contract before voting on whether to accept it. But by the damage it would cause to the economy, leaving the EU could have an even greater effect on their working lives and on patients.

http://www.bmj.com/content/353/bmj.i3302j

Just some

The NHS relies on overseas doctors and nurses—both from within and beyond the EU. One in 10 of the doctors working in our health service was trained in another EU country.1 Those already here would not be sent home tomorrow if we pulled up the drawbridge, but leaving the EU would jeopardise the free movement of people on which our health service depends.

Speculation. Just as the Leave supporters' opinions are speculation. It's all speculation.

63 percent of foreign doctors working in the UK end up being struck off. I wonder why?

BTW...why does Britain have to rely on overseas nurses? Don't you think it should be encouraging our own people to train up in that department? This is how it used to be years ago, before you were expected to have a Uni degree to enter the profession. All those nurses who never had degrees were not less professional or adept.

HoratioTarr wrote:The NHS relies on overseas doctors and nurses—both from within and beyond the EU. One in 10 of the doctors working in our health service was trained in another EU country.1 Those already here would not be sent home tomorrow if we pulled up the drawbridge, but leaving the EU would jeopardise the free movement of people on which our health service depends.

Speculation.   Just as the Leave supporters' opinions are speculation.   It's all speculation.  

63 percent of foreign doctors working in the UK end up being struck off.   I wonder why?  

BTW...why does Britain have to rely on overseas nurses?   Don't you think it should be encouraging our own people to train up in that department?   This is how it used to be years ago, before you were expected to have a Uni degree to enter the profession.  All those nurses who never had degrees were not less professional or adept.  

Where is the 63% figure from, as if that was the case when one third of our doctors are foreign born, the NHS would have collapsed.?

Didge wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:The NHS relies on overseas doctors and nurses—both from within and beyond the EU. One in 10 of the doctors working in our health service was trained in another EU country.1 Those already here would not be sent home tomorrow if we pulled up the drawbridge, but leaving the EU would jeopardise the free movement of people on which our health service depends.

Speculation.   Just as the Leave supporters' opinions are speculation.   It's all speculation.  

63 percent of foreign doctors working in the UK end up being struck off.   I wonder why?  

BTW...why does Britain have to rely on overseas nurses?   Don't you think it should be encouraging our own people to train up in that department?   This is how it used to be years ago, before you were expected to have a Uni degree to enter the profession.  All those nurses who never had degrees were not less professional or adept.  

Where is the 63% figure from, as if that was the case when one third of our doctors are foreign born, the NHS would have collapsed.?

I think this may be the source for the 63% that HT quoted. It's from the Daily Express

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/367832/Five-times-as-many-foreign-trained-doctors-struck-off

I found it in The Independent actually. However, most papers have covered it. Is it all lies then?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/10773857/Half-of-foreign-doctors-are-below-British-standards.html

HoratioTarr wrote:I found it in The Independent actually.  However, most papers have covered it.   Is it all lies then?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/nhs/10773857/Half-of-foreign-doctors-are-below-British-standards.html

Oh right HT. I was just guessing the link really.

I have no idea why anyone would be so scared of leaving!? What do they think will happen?

I'll tell you what will happen: it will either be no different, better or worse.

If it's worse? The MP's will work bloody hard to make sure they get it right and England will be stronger than ever

What is this fear that people have of standing alone?

eddie wrote:I have no idea why anyone would be so scared of leaving!? What do they think will happen?

I'll tell you what will happen: it will either be no different, better or worse.

If it's worse? The MP's will work bloody hard to make sure they get it right and England will be stronger than ever

What is this fear that people have of standing alone?

Wasn't there all this furore when they wanted us to accept the Euro?

I don't think much will happen, or change. At least nothing that will affect the lives of ordinary people. The people who will feel it will be those at the top of the pile, who are already raking it in and lying to the rest of us. I don't give a fuck about them.

Restoration of our democracy, our freedom and our right to self governance and self determination is paramount... and only achieved by getting out from under the control of the EU dictatorship!!!

For blackie...


This op shows how eu rules allow free movement of non eu people into our country and why non eu immigration is so high too...



"...It gives EEA citizens the right of free movement and residence across the European Economic Area, as long as they are not an undue burden on the country of residence and have comprehensive health insurance.[1] This right also extends to close family members that are not EEA citizens.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Movement_Directive


So it looks like non eu nationals can also get here under eu free movement rules!!!


We must vote leave to end the madness and regain control of our country!!!

Bumped for Ziz...

Tommy Monk wrote:Bumped for Ziz...

Such rights can only be exercised if they have an EU passport or ID card in order to enter the UK, as the UK government makes clear here:

2. Before you leave for the UK
Check what documents you’ll need to enter the UK.

You’re from an EEA country or Switzerland
You can enter the UK with either a valid passport or a national identity card issued by a EEA country. It must be valid for the whole of your stay.

You’re not from an EEA country
You must have a valid passport to enter the UK. It must be valid for the whole of your stay.

You may also need a visa, depending on which country you’re from.

Check if you need a visa to enter the UK.

https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control/before-you-leave-for-the-uk

Ziz wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Bumped for Ziz...

Such rights can only be exercised if they have an EU passport or ID card in order to enter the UK, as the UK government makes clear here:

2. Before you leave for the UK
Check what documents you’ll need to enter the UK.

You’re from an EEA country or Switzerland
You can enter the UK with either a valid passport or a national identity card issued by a EEA country. It must be valid for the whole of your stay.

You’re not from an EEA country
You must have a valid passport to enter the UK. It must be valid for the whole of your stay.

You may also need a visa, depending on which country you’re from.

Check if you need a visa to enter the UK.

https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control/before-you-leave-for-the-uk

Wrong!!!


As they can enter the country under their own non eu passport!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:

Ziz wrote:

Such rights can only be exercised if they have an EU passport or ID card in order to enter the UK, as the UK government makes clear here:

2. Before you leave for the UK
Check what documents you’ll need to enter the UK.

You’re from an EEA country or Switzerland
You can enter the UK with either a valid passport or a national identity card issued by a EEA country. It must be valid for the whole of your stay.

You’re not from an EEA country
You must have a valid passport to enter the UK. It must be valid for the whole of your stay.

You may also need a visa, depending on which country you’re from.

Check if you need a visa to enter the UK.

https://www.gov.uk/uk-border-control/before-you-leave-for-the-uk

Wrong!!!


As they can enter the country under their own non eu passport!!!

I've countered that elsewhere - please stop spamming, it achieves nothing.

You are spamming with irrelevant rules on entry to the UK... I am taking about eu free movement rules that state that the same eu free movement rights are extended to non EU citizens if they claim to be close family members of an eu citizen!


Try to keep up please...

Tommy Monk wrote:You are spamming with irrelevant rules on entry to the UK... I am taking about eu free movement rules that state that the same eu free movement rights are extended to non EU citizens if they claim to be close family members of an eu citizen!


Try to keep up please...

I have addressed your point elsewhere more than once - there is no more to say on the matter.

Except... you have waffled about uk rules of entry to this country... while I am talking about eu rules that allow non eu nationals the same free movement rights as eu citizens as long as they claim to be close family members of an eu citizen...


It's clearly written in the rules as I have shown in op...


So I don't know why you keep trying to deny this!!!

I refer you to my earlier replies - exchange terminated.

You have shown yourself to be posting irrelevant waffle and to be totally wrong...


So come back when you have something tangible to add to this thread!

Dont sulk - it's undignified.

I'm not sulking... on the contrary... I find your feeble attempts here to be... most amusing!!!





Come back when you have something relevant to add to the thread... until then... your input here is superfluous..!


Exchange terminated!

There is no free movement of family members of non EU countries into the UK. It just doesn't happen.

And the SEA set in motion the provisions for closer economic integration and free movement of goods and Labour later ratified under the Maastrich Treaty.

Free movement of some workers was already in place since Rome treaty 1957...


And the eu rules are clear that free movement rights extend to close family members of eu citizens who are kit themselves eu citizens!!!


Read the rules!!!

How is it that two posters, who've read up on the same thing can come to the exact opposite views?

I don't know enough to pitch in, having skimmed it, but I feel more confused now.

Tommy Monk wrote:"...It gives EEA citizens the right of free movement and residence across the European Economic Area, as long as they are not an undue burden on the country of residence and have comprehensive health insurance.[1] This right also extends to close family members that are not EEA citizens.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Movement_Directive


So it looks like non eu nationals can also get here under eu free movement rules!!!

Read the eu free movement rules above!!!


What does it say in the second bold bit...?


It couldn't be clearer!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:"...It gives EEA citizens the right of free movement and residence across the European Economic Area, as long as they are not an undue burden on the country of residence and have comprehensive health insurance.[1] This right also extends to close family members that are not EEA citizens.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Movement_Directive


So it looks like non eu nationals can also get here under eu free movement rules!!!

Read the eu free movement rules above!!!


What does it say in the second bold bit...?


It couldn't be clearer!!!

Bit late tonight Tommy but here's your chance to explain in you own words how this free movement for close family members that are not EEA citizens works from start to finish and how it is truly free movement in the same way as for ordinary EEA nationals.

I have already given an example scenario..

Tommy Monk wrote:I have already given an example scenario..

Can you bring it up for me Tommy as I can't seem to find it?

I gotta go Tommy but if you can draw up your scenario for the morning that proves your point I'll give it the once over and let you know what I think.

Something a little "Off topic", for a moment :

THE Aussie dollar is up nearly   25%   against the British £ since the beginning of this year...

And to think that a couple of months ago, some of the Brexit supporters on here were claiming that the £££ was already rebounding..        

Irn Bru wrote:I gotta go Tommy but if you can draw up your scenario for the morning that proves your point I'll give it the once over and let you know what I think.

It's on the 'homophobic rise 147% after brexit' thread...




Here is a scenario... an African man turns up in southern Europe... is given eu citizenship... uses this to get into uk... then his mum/dad/brothers/sisters/wives/children/aunts/uncles and cousins/neices/nephews/grand parents etc can all turn up here in uk on their non eu passports... and then exercise their right to stay and live here under free movement rights that extend to them under the free movement rules that state that...


"This right also extends to close family members that are not EEA citizens."

Tommy Monk wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:I gotta go Tommy but if you can draw up your scenario for the morning that proves your point I'll give it the once over and let you know what I think.

It's on the 'homophobic rise 147% after brexit' thread...




Here is a scenario... an African man turns up in southern Europe... is given eu citizenship... uses this to get into uk... then his mum/dad/brothers/sisters/wives/children/aunts/uncles and cousins/neices/nephews/grand parents etc can all turn up here in uk on their non eu passports... and then exercise their right to stay and live here under free movement rights that extend to them under the free movement rules that state that...


"This right also extends to close family members that are not EEA citizens."

That's the rights of an EU citizen not an EEA citizen which is what wiki statement is about.

Have you got a scenario for an EEA citizen and their family members?

Don't split hairs Bru...

Tommy Monk wrote:

Don't split hairs Bru...

C'mon Tommy, you've been rumbled mate. There's no free movement for family members of EEA citizens.