If there was a referendum to bring back the death penalty..

4EVER2 wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:yup, agreed ben

if someone did something to me/mine that warranted their extinction...Id want to be the cause of that extinction directly AND look em right in the eye as their lights went out.

Then as a 'VICTIMS' family, you'd be asked 'if you wanted to attend the execution, and be awarded a chair right in full view of the perps last moments on this earth'; but if you and Ben have your way - you'd put all of the penal code and those hired to do those jobs out of work because you have 'ISSUES'? 

Lordy, and you call it cowardice that our laws are set up for the judicial system to turn this death sentence over to the penal system so it's done accordingly ---  
Hmm, well I believe in our screwed up judicial system - it's all we have {albeit, it's needing some serious overhaul} but it's eons improved from the days of yore when England tossed people into the dungeon for such heinous things as: being a thief/refusing to divorce/adultery/debtors prison/treason/hierarchy - and a variety of other gentle names awarded by the gentry whenever it suited them.

Yes, we've come a long way; and unfortunately the ACLU involvement in the method of dealing with those hardened criminals has left the methods more to the soft peddle side than the 'hard labor' {busting rock/chain gang days} are few and far between.  But there are still a couple of places I've read where they do highway labor and that isn't for the faint of heart and this is the southern states where the temperatures are horrid and humid as well.  
Here's an interesting ACLU opinion piece you might enjoy if you and Ben haven't read it yet!  here's just a snippet >

The latest incarnation of this betrayal of the Bill of Rights is the ACLU’s refusal to support criminal justice reform legislation that strengthens the mens rea requirement for most federal criminal statutes. Translated from the Latin as “guilty mind,” mens rea is a legal phrase that describes the mental state of mind formed prior to the commission of a crime. Traditionally, the law requires the government to prove that a defendant was aware of and intended to break the law before he can be punished for doing so.
http://www.yourwestvalley.com/opinion/article_877081f0-1c05-11e6-86b4-97f8785388fa.html

Syl wrote:A judge and jury decides whether a person is guilty or not....am I right?
The victims family do not.
So if the death penalty was reinstated it would not be the victim or the family who voted for that....it would be an impartial group of people who considered the case without emotion or prejudice.

Why on earth should the people who have been victims of the guilty party have to then act like the executioner....it's not a' Death wish' film ...it's real life.

Lord Foul wrote:

Syl wrote:A judge and jury decides whether a person is guilty or not....am I right?
The victims family do not.
So if the death penalty was reinstated it would not be the victim or the family who voted for that....it would be an impartial group of people who considered the case without emotion or prejudice.

Why on earth should the people who have been victims of the guilty party have to then act like the executioner....it's not a' Death wish' film ...it's real life.

you are doing a didge on me...repaeting the same argument in 50 different ways after I answered it....

but once again

what is the purpose of a DP?

and in answer to the question you merely rephrased highlighted above

Because if they dont wish to do so then they clearly dont want it enough......

how about taking some personal responsibility for what is done ...in your name

Lord Foul wrote:tommy you are wrong ...read what I posted above...nothing to do with a free for all or outside of law....

in fact its MORE "just" becasue the victim/offended against would gain the right to say no, not in my name and commute said sentence...

how can giving the victim the chance to show mercy, if they wish, be unjust.

as to your comments about economics syl...thats just plain evil.....

Syl wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:tommy you are wrong ...read what I posted above...nothing to do with a free for all or outside of law....

in fact its MORE "just" becasue the victim/offended against would gain the right to say no, not in my name and commute said sentence...

how can giving the victim the chance to show mercy, if they wish, be unjust.

as to your comments about economics syl...thats just plain evil.....

Nah....it's more evil to watch kids die in hospital  because the funding isn't available to help them live.....or neglect dementia sufferers by denying them adequate care, or cancer patients dying because expensive equipment isn't available.......when all the while  millions are spent annually  keeping worthless criminals locked up for decades....that's evil imo.

Lord Foul wrote:

4EVER2 wrote:

Then as a 'VICTIMS' family, you'd be asked 'if you wanted to attend the execution, and be awarded a chair right in full view of the perps last moments on this earth'; but if you and Ben have your way - you'd put all of the penal code and those hired to do those jobs out of work because you have 'ISSUES'? 

Lordy, and you call it cowardice that our laws are set up for the judicial system to turn this death sentence over to the penal system so it's done accordingly ---  
Hmm, well I believe in our screwed up judicial system - it's all we have {albeit, it's needing some serious overhaul} but it's eons improved from the days of yore when England tossed people into the dungeon for such heinous things as: being a thief/refusing to divorce/adultery/debtors prison/treason/hierarchy - and a variety of other gentle names awarded by the gentry whenever it suited them.

Yes, we've come a long way; and unfortunately the ACLU involvement in the method of dealing with those hardened criminals has left the methods more to the soft peddle side than the 'hard labor' {busting rock/chain gang days} are few and far between.  But there are still a couple of places I've read where they do highway labor and that isn't for the faint of heart and this is the southern states where the temperatures are horrid and humid as well.  
Here's an interesting ACLU opinion piece you might enjoy if you and Ben haven't read it yet!  here's just a snippet >

another bout of "lets beat the hell out of the debate with another does of britbashing by digging up ancient history" eh!

just how the f**k is this relevant????

in fact.....how the hell is 90% of that post there  relevant?

4EVER2 wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:

4EVER2 wrote:

Then as a 'VICTIMS' family, you'd be asked 'if you wanted to attend the execution, and be awarded a chair right in full view of the perps last moments on this earth'; but if you and Ben have your way - you'd put all of the penal code and those hired to do those jobs out of work because you have 'ISSUES'? 

Lordy, and you call it cowardice that our laws are set up for the judicial system to turn this death sentence over to the penal system so it's done accordingly ---  
Hmm, well I believe in our screwed up judicial system - it's all we have {albeit, it's needing some serious overhaul} but it's eons improved from the days of yore when England tossed people into the dungeon for such heinous things as: being a thief/refusing to divorce/adultery/debtors prison/treason/hierarchy - and a variety of other gentle names awarded by the gentry whenever it suited them.

Yes, we've come a long way; and unfortunately the ACLU involvement in the method of dealing with those hardened criminals has left the methods more to the soft peddle side than the 'hard labor' {busting rock/chain gang days} are few and far between.  But there are still a couple of places I've read where they do highway labor and that isn't for the faint of heart and this is the southern states where the temperatures are horrid and humid as well.  
Here's an interesting ACLU opinion piece you might enjoy if you and Ben haven't read it yet!  here's just a snippet >

another bout of "lets beat the hell out of the debate with another does of britbashing by digging up ancient history" eh!

just how the f**k is this relevant????

in fact.....how the hell is 90% of that post there  relevant?

It's relevant because I went right from what 'WE {USA}' had evolved from right into what the 'ACLU' {you didn't even bother to look at the F'n LINK} and the article about the reform legislation that the ACLU is pushing.
BTW...we didn't just fall out onto north america from some spaceship...we were part of you are legal system is a modified copy of British Law...did you forget

Amazing, how the mind just LOCKS TARGET / LOCKS UP / LOCK DOWN on what you assume is going to happen instead of just reading the fucking words that are typed and learning something that you might NOT KNOW - HUH!!! 

Good Grief, what a waste of a brain!

4EVER2 wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:

4EVER2 wrote:

Then as a 'VICTIMS' family, you'd be asked 'if you wanted to attend the execution, and be awarded a chair right in full view of the perps last moments on this earth'; but if you and Ben have your way - you'd put all of the penal code and those hired to do those jobs out of work because you have 'ISSUES'? 

Lordy, and you call it cowardice that our laws are set up for the judicial system to turn this death sentence over to the penal system so it's done accordingly ---  
Hmm, well I believe in our screwed up judicial system - it's all we have {albeit, it's needing some serious overhaul} but it's eons improved from the days of yore when England tossed people into the dungeon for such heinous things as: being a thief/refusing to divorce/adultery/debtors prison/treason/hierarchy - and a variety of other gentle names awarded by the gentry whenever it suited them.

Yes, we've come a long way; and unfortunately the ACLU involvement in the method of dealing with those hardened criminals has left the methods more to the soft peddle side than the 'hard labor' {busting rock/chain gang days} are few and far between.  But there are still a couple of places I've read where they do highway labor and that isn't for the faint of heart and this is the southern states where the temperatures are horrid and humid as well.  
Here's an interesting ACLU opinion piece you might enjoy if you and Ben haven't read it yet!  here's just a snippet >

another bout of "lets beat the hell out of the debate with another does of britbashing by digging up ancient history" eh!

just how the f**k is this relevant????

in fact.....how the hell is 90% of that post there  relevant?

It's relevant because I went right from what 'WE {USA}' had evolved from right into what the 'ACLU' {you didn't even bother to look at the F'n LINK} and the article about the reform legislation that the ACLU is pushing.
BTW...we didn't just fall out onto north america from some spaceship...we were part of you are legal system is a modified copy of British Law...did you forget

Amazing, how the mind just LOCKS TARGET / LOCKS UP / LOCK DOWN on what you assume is going to happen instead of just reading the fucking words that are typed and learning something that you might NOT KNOW - HUH!!! 

Good Grief, what a waste of a brain!

Syl wrote:As for the death penalty being seen as some sort of revenge...I dispute that.
Revenge is wanting a person who has no hope of ever being freed suffering every day of their lives living with what they have done.

It's also a way of ending the trauma for victims being constantly reminded of whats happened to their loved ones.....the press love to carry stories of mass murderers, think brady, Hindley, Ripper, etc etc.....constant grief for victims families every time their names are mentioned.

And lets not even mention the economics of keeping some worthless soul alive, fed, watered  and safe for decades..

Lord Foul wrote:

Syl wrote:

Nah....it's more evil to watch kids die in hospital  because the funding isn't available to help them live.....or neglect dementia sufferers by denying them adequate care, or cancer patients dying because expensive equipment isn't available.......when all the while  millions are spent annually  keeping worthless criminals locked up for decades....that's evil imo.

that could be said about a lot of things...the real truth is the cost of keeping those alive that would be executed is not, in the grand scheme of things a great amount...

dont forget brady...and by extension if it came to it hindley......would likely never have hung anyway...brady was found criminally insane...and we DONT EVER.....hang an insane person....

hanging paedos is possibly severely counterproductive.....it likeley would lead to far more dead kids......if someone is going to hang for molesting a kid...they may as well go the whole hog....dead people dont get to say anything at all...ever....

and so on....

AND...what are you going to do when a mistake DOES happen eh???   dig him up and say sorry....

say sorry to HIS kids/widow etc....

SORRY????

SORRY WHY......and what good is sorry....

are you THEN prepared to hang everyone involved in the "mistake" ?

the judge jury police forensic "experts" witnesses???

after all THEY are guilty of at least complicity in murder then too...albeit a "state sanctioned murder" but murder non the less

see the problem I have is ...folks want a system...but want neither responsibility for it nor to be actionable for its errors....

yeah ...lets hang em all...and bugger the consequences, sod the odd innocent victim....we dont care.....WE WANT OUR POUND OF FLESH.....but we dont want to know about the "other side" the dark, bad side. We want our charade of "justice"....our "show trials" and our sense of "vicarious victimhood" satisfying....whats that you say...new evidence shows our "dancing puppet" was innocent.....oh well...never mind...he must have been guilty of something . and we can all of us walk away from it blaming the "system" and noone needs be punished.


pfffft....PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY........


which is WHY.......if you havnt yet worked it out ....I DONT support the DP......though sometimes I could put that aside for certain individuals...but I realise that THAT is arbitrary ...and THAT is one thing the law should never be.........

Lord Foul wrote:whilstI would of course disagree with your "religious " take on this ragga (and thats not criticism btw) I agree entirely...

IF you are advocating the DP you SHOULD be prepared to face the personal responsibility for carrying it out...as I said to do otherwise is moral cowardice....

of course there ARE cases where perhaps the DP IS relevant...think of the nazi war crimes and such...some things are so terribe that destroying the perpetrator is, possibly, due justice. but beyond that its just wrong...

personal thirst for revenge I can at least understand, society howling for some sort of revenge for its "vicarious victimhood" is just pure "mob mentality"

veya_victaous wrote:

4EVER2 wrote:
It's relevant because I went right from what 'WE {USA}' had evolved from right into what the 'ACLU' {you didn't even bother to look at the F'n LINK} and the article about the reform legislation that the ACLU is pushing.
BTW...we didn't just fall out onto north america from some spaceship...we were part of you are legal system is a modified copy of British Law...did you forget

Amazing, how the mind just LOCKS TARGET / LOCKS UP / LOCK DOWN on what you assume is going to happen instead of just reading the fucking words that are typed and learning something that you might NOT KNOW - HUH!!! 

Good Grief, what a waste of a brain!

you get called anti British if you don’t say Britain is the best all the time. The fact that Britain is First in literally nothing is not relevant to them the fact that Britain IS responsible for a lot of these issue that extend from the Bad old days when Britain was in charge is perpetually ignored in favour of their Eurocentric propaganda.

Basically they will do everything they can to make you Anti-British.

Stormee wrote:Mornin Miss Ragga.

Do you really believe that those who do really norty/wrong things will actually answer for their actions?

Example Jimmy Savile.

I am wondering if Hitler and his henchmen ever answered for their horrendous crimes.

4EVER2 wrote:
BTW...we didn't just fall out onto north america from some spaceship...we were part of you are legal system is a modified copy of British Law...did you forget

Amazing, how the mind just LOCKS TARGET / LOCKS UP / LOCK DOWN on what you assume is going to happen instead of just reading the fucking words that are typed and learning something that you might NOT KNOW - HUH!!! 

Good Grief, what a waste of a brain!

Syl wrote:As for the death penalty being seen as some sort of revenge...I dispute that.
Revenge is wanting a person who has no hope of ever being freed suffering every day of their lives living with what they have done.

It's also a way of ending the trauma for victims being constantly reminded of whats happened to their loved ones.....the press love to carry stories of mass murderers, think brady, Hindley, Ripper, etc etc.....constant grief for victims families every time their names are mentioned.

And lets not even mention the economics of keeping some worthless soul alive, fed, watered  and safe for decades..

Raggamuffin wrote:

Syl wrote:As for the death penalty being seen as some sort of revenge...I dispute that.
Revenge is wanting a person who has no hope of ever being freed suffering every day of their lives living with what they have done.

It's also a way of ending the trauma for victims being constantly reminded of whats happened to their loved ones.....the press love to carry stories of mass murderers, think brady, Hindley, Ripper, etc etc.....constant grief for victims families every time their names are mentioned.

And lets not even mention the economics of keeping some worthless soul alive, fed, watered  and safe for decades..

And yet you didn't give a thought to the parents of David Blakely. You didn't think about how they felt to know that a woman had chased him around a car and shot him in cold blood, and then shot him again and again as he lay injured on the ground, cutting short a life and taking their son away from them.  

HoratioTarr wrote:

Syl wrote:As for the death penalty being seen as some sort of revenge...I dispute that.
Revenge is wanting a person who has no hope of ever being freed suffering every day of their lives living with what they have done.

It's also a way of ending the trauma for victims being constantly reminded of whats happened to their loved ones.....the press love to carry stories of mass murderers, think brady, Hindley, Ripper, etc etc.....constant grief for victims families every time their names are mentioned.

And lets not even mention the economics of keeping some worthless soul alive, fed, watered  and safe for decades..

I don't think the comfort afforded by seeing the murderer of your child being killed would last long.   The pain of that would just never go away.  

Lord Foul wrote:

Syl wrote:

Nah....it's more evil to watch kids die in hospital  because the funding isn't available to help them live.....or neglect dementia sufferers by denying them adequate care, or cancer patients dying because expensive equipment isn't available.......when all the while  millions are spent annually  keeping worthless criminals locked up for decades....that's evil imo.

that could be said about a lot of things...the real truth is the cost of keeping those alive that would be executed is not, in the grand scheme of things a great amount...

dont forget brady...and by extension if it came to it hindley......would likely never have hung anyway...brady was found criminally insane...and we DONT EVER.....hang an insane person....

hanging paedos is possibly severely counterproductive.....it likeley would lead to far more dead kids......if someone is going to hang for molesting a kid...they may as well go the whole hog....dead people dont get to say anything at all...ever....

and so on....

AND...what are you going to do when a mistake DOES happen eh???   dig him up and say sorry....

say sorry to HIS kids/widow etc....

SORRY????

SORRY WHY......and what good is sorry....

are you THEN prepared to hang everyone involved in the "mistake" ?

the judge jury police forensic "experts" witnesses???

after all THEY are guilty of at least complicity in murder then too...albeit a "state sanctioned murder" but murder non the less

see the problem I have is ...folks want a system...but want neither responsibility for it nor to be actionable for its errors....

yeah ...lets hang em all...and bugger the consequences, sod the odd innocent victim....we dont care.....WE WANT OUR POUND OF FLESH.....but we dont want to know about the "other side" the dark, bad side. We want our charade of "justice"....our "show trials" and our sense of "vicarious victimhood" satisfying....whats that you say...new evidence shows our "dancing puppet" was innocent.....oh well...never mind...he must have been guilty of something . and we can all of us walk away from it blaming the "system" and noone needs be punished.


pfffft....PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY........


which is WHY.......if you havnt yet worked it out ....I DONT support the DP......though sometimes I could put that aside for certain individuals...but I realise that THAT is arbitrary ...and THAT is one thing the law should never be.........

Syl wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

And yet you didn't give a thought to the parents of David Blakely. You didn't think about how they felt to know that a woman had chased him around a car and shot him in cold blood, and then shot him again and again as he lay injured on the ground, cutting short a life and taking their son away from them.  

I didn't give it any thought at the time...I was a young child.

As for his parents grieving, of course they must have, just as hers did when she was hanged.

My point was and still is she would not have  hung today even if we still had capital punishment.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Syl wrote:

I didn't give it any thought at the time...I was a young child.

As for his parents grieving, of course they must have, just as hers did when she was hanged.

My point was and still is she would not have  hung today even if we still had capital punishment.

I mean you didn't give it a thought when you were talking about Ruth Ellis on another thread. You saw her as a victim, instead of seeing him as the victim, along with his parents.

Why do you say she wouldn't have been executed today if we still had capital punishment? You mean the courts would have said - poor thing - she didn't mean to slam four bullets into her boyfriend who tried to escape? For a start, she would not have legally had that gun, so that would have gone very much against her.

The law on capital punishment had changed a lot before it was abolished. in 1957 it was changed whereby only certain types of murder were punishable by death, but that included murder by shooting, which would have included Ruth Ellis.

Syl wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I mean you didn't give it a thought when you were talking about Ruth Ellis on another thread. You saw her as a victim, instead of seeing him as the victim, along with his parents.

Why do you say she wouldn't have been executed today if we still had capital punishment? You mean the courts would have said - poor thing - she didn't mean to slam four bullets into her boyfriend who tried to escape? For a start, she would not have legally had that gun, so that would have gone very much against her.

The law on capital punishment had changed a lot before it was abolished. in 1957 it was changed whereby only certain types of murder were punishable by death, but that included murder by shooting, which would have included Ruth Ellis.

From what I have read (not recently) I did see her as a victim, so was he, there is often more than one victim in a murder.
I dont see things as cut and dried as you do....there is usually a build up in domestic abuse cases, no matter how they end.
He was violent and unfaithful, she was pregnant, he beat her up so badly she lost the baby....now if she had killed him then and there she would not have been charged with murder.
As it was she thought about it, got hold of a gun....whether she pre meditated actually murdering him who knows....but she did.
All that should be taken into consideration, and I believe today it would be.

I don't believe in the death penalty for every murder.....terrorism, child rape and murder, mass murder.....in fact I think I would be pretty lenient if I was the judge.
I may have to rethink and  toughen up.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Syl wrote:

From what I have read (not recently) I did see her as a victim, so was he, there is often more than one victim in a murder.
I dont see things as cut and dried as you do....there is usually a build up in domestic abuse cases, no matter how they end.
He was violent and unfaithful, she was pregnant, he beat her up so badly she lost the baby....now if she had killed him then and there she would not have been charged with murder.
As it was she thought about it, got hold of a gun....whether she pre meditated actually murdering him who knows....but she did.
All that should be taken into consideration, and I believe today it would be.

I don't believe in the death penalty for every murder.....terrorism, child rape and murder, mass murder.....in fact I think I would be pretty lenient if I was the judge.
I may have to rethink and  toughen up.

Of course it was premeditated. She waited for him to come out of the pub and then just shot him.

You only hear her side of it because she's portrayed as a poor little victim. She had ample opportunity to walk away from Blakely. She didn't need to live with him, and she didn't need to keep getting pregnant. Blakely offered to marry her the first time she got pregnant, and she refused and aborted the baby. She was two-timing him with Desmond Cussen as well, and lived with him. Blakely understandably started seeing other women, and Ruth didn't like that. He was no threat to her when she shot him - he'd been to a pub with friends - she sought him out to kill him in cold blood.

Syl wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Of course it was premeditated. She waited for him to come out of the pub and then just shot him.

You only hear her side of it because she's portrayed as a poor little victim. She had ample opportunity to walk away from Blakely. She didn't need to live with him, and she didn't need to keep getting pregnant. Blakely offered to marry her the first time she got pregnant, and she refused and aborted the baby. She was two-timing him with Desmond Cussen as well, and lived with him. Blakely understandably started seeing other women, and Ruth didn't like that. He was no threat to her when she shot him - he'd been to a pub with friends - she sought him out to kill him in cold blood.

It's ages since I read up on it all so details are sketchy.

I do remember reading he beat her up so badly she lost their baby.

Also, she didn't get pregnant on her own, he helped, don't forget in these were pre pill days...the onus was often on the man to prevent pregnancies....why didn't he?

I don't know that she is portrayed as the 'poor little victim'...but she   was the last woman to hang in the UK,so  there has been much interest in her story and her life, which was by all accounts  pretty sad and mixed up.

Syl wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

I don't think the comfort afforded by seeing the murderer of your child being killed would last long.   The pain of that would just never go away.  

Of course the pain never goes away...any parent of a dead child knows that.
But when your  child is sexually abused and murdered....and is caught on tape as happened with Lesley Ann Down, then for decades after, the murderers and anyone who has contact with them regularly hash all this up again in the press....ensuring that the familys re live it all like bloody groundhog day...over and over......don't you think that would make the torment 100 times worse?

That's one case....there are many more.

Lord Foul wrote:

4EVER2 wrote:
It's relevant because I went right from what 'WE {USA}' had evolved from right into what the 'ACLU' {you didn't even bother to look at the F'n LINK} and the article about the reform legislation that the ACLU is pushing.
BTW...we didn't just fall out onto north america from some spaceship...we were part of you-our legal system is a modified copy of British Law...did you forget
Amazing, how the mind just LOCKS TARGET / LOCKS UP / LOCK DOWN on what you assume is going to happen instead of just reading the fucking words that are typed and learning something that you might NOT KNOW - HUH!!! 

Good Grief, what a waste of a brain!

would you care to explain just HOW the part I highlighted is relevant.?
refering as it does to historical doings....

4EVER2 wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:
would you care to explain just HOW the part I highlighted is relevant.?
refering as it does to historical doings....

How do you manage to watch any TV show when the program gets a steady 'REPEAT/REWIND' so you can be shown numerous times what was shown/typed in the original show/post?  Good Grief...
we were part of you - our legal system is a modified copy of British Law...did you forget
If you're still befuddled by the connected dots from 'OUR HISTORY IS YOUR HISTORY' then just let it go and keep chalking it up to yet another British bashing moment; seems to be the stock response from you!

Raggamuffin wrote:

4EVER2 wrote:
How do you manage to watch any TV show when the program gets a steady 'REPEAT/REWIND' so you can be shown numerous times what was shown/typed in the original show/post?  Good Grief...
we were part of you - our legal system is a modified copy of British Law...did you forget
If you're still befuddled by the connected dots from 'OUR HISTORY IS YOUR HISTORY' then just let it go and keep chalking it up to yet another British bashing moment; seems to be the stock response from you!

Get with the times. The death penalty for murder was suspended in Great Britain in 1965 and abolished in 1969, and in NI in 1973. The last executions in England were in 1964. You lot have had plenty of time to learn that it's barbaric, and yet you still persist.

4EVER2 wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Get with the times. The death penalty for murder was suspended in Great Britain in 1965 and abolished in 1969, and in NI in 1973. The last executions in England were in 1964. You lot have had plenty of time to learn that it's barbaric, and yet you still persist.

You really get lost when trying to read posts...explains volumes about the need to keep explaining things to you in finite detail NUMEROUS times. 
BTW - my reply was to LordFoul; are you playing his interpreter too?

Lord Foul wrote:exactly....a Modified copy
modified so much its almost unrecogniseable....
and....even OUR legal system bears NO relationship to the historical methods you mentioned...
you make it sound like YOU took our system and made it "better" and we just kept on the old way..
my point is you cannot make ANY point without comparing what YOU have NOW to what we (and most others) did 100...200 or 1000 years ago....
you are too fond of comparing apples with oranges in your pathetic attempts to "beat down" the brits....

At least WE have realised that state sponsored murder is not the way forward.....

4EVER2 wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:exactly....a Modified copy
modified so much its almost unrecogniseable....
and....even OUR legal system bears NO relationship to the historical methods you mentioned...
you make it sound like YOU took our system and made it "better" and we just kept on the old way..
my point is you cannot make ANY point without comparing what YOU have NOW to what we (and most others) did 100...200 or 1000 years ago....
you are too fond of comparing apples with oranges in your pathetic attempts to "beat down" the brits....

At least WE have realised that state sponsored murder is not the way forward.....

Your 'one stick pony' mentality {paranoia for YOUR country} seems to make it impossible for you to discuss anything that originates from the Jolly Ole' England base - LMAO

So you've yet to even bother to click on the link and read what the professor would like to shake up OUR {USA legal system}...you'd rather keep kicking your hysteria fixation that I dared mention Britain in my post!  

Good Grief...you are quite a mess and as such {you with your little troll attached to your leg}...I'll withdraw and leave you fuming about 'how dare anyone speak of ENGLAND in any manner/shape or form'...Get Over It 

HoratioTarr wrote:

Syl wrote:

Of course the pain never goes away...any parent of a dead child knows that.
But when your  child is sexually abused and murdered....and is caught on tape as happened with Lesley Ann Down, then for decades after, the murderers and anyone who has contact with them regularly hash all this up again in the press....ensuring that the familys re live it all like bloody groundhog day...over and over......don't you think that would make the torment 100 times worse?

That's one case....there are many more.

I think Brady's suffering is 100 fold for not being killed.  He's wanted to die for decades.

4EVER2 wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:exactly....a Modified copy
modified so much its almost unrecogniseable....
and....even OUR legal system bears NO relationship to the historical methods you mentioned...
you make it sound like YOU took our system and made it "better" and we just kept on the old way..
my point is you cannot make ANY point without comparing what YOU have NOW to what we (and most others) did 100...200 or 1000 years ago....
you are too fond of comparing apples with oranges in your pathetic attempts to "beat down" the brits....

At least WE have realised that state sponsored murder is not the way forward.....

Your 'one stick pony' mentality {paranoia for YOUR country} seems to make it impossible for you to discuss anything that originates from the Jolly Ole' England base - LMAO

So you've yet to even bother to click on the link and read what the professor would like to shake up OUR {USA legal system}...you'd rather keep kicking your hysteria fixation that I dared mention Britain in my post!  

Good Grief...you are quite a mess and as such {you with your little troll attached to your leg}...I'll withdraw and leave you fuming about 'how dare anyone speak of ENGLAND in any manner/shape or form'...Get Over It 

Syl wrote:

HoratioTarr wrote:

Syl wrote:

Of course the pain never goes away...any parent of a dead child knows that.
But when your  child is sexually abused and murdered....and is caught on tape as happened with Lesley Ann Down, then for decades after, the murderers and anyone who has contact with them regularly hash all this up again in the press....ensuring that the familys re live it all like bloody groundhog day...over and over......don't you think that would make the torment 100 times worse?

That's one case....there are many more.

I think Brady's suffering is 100 fold for not being killed.  He's wanted to die for decades.

And that's what many people who are against the death penalty love....the fact that someone craves death and is being kept alive to suffer, which is a lot more vengeful than wanting to see someone put to death quickly.

The point is it makes no difference to me what the convicted want, they  have lost the right to decide whether they live or die, starve themselves to death or linger for years like Brady......they should be dead.

Lord Foul wrote:

Syl wrote:

And that's what many people who are against the death penalty love....the fact that someone craves death and is being kept alive to suffer, which is a lot more vengeful than wanting to see someone put to death quickly.

The point is it makes no difference to me what the convicted want, they  have lost the right to decide whether they live or die, starve themselves to death or linger for years like Brady......they should be dead.

how many more times...brady would never have hung.....he was criminally insane....and ...once again we do NOT hang insane people

Lord Foul wrote:

Syl wrote:

And that's what many people who are against the death penalty love....the fact that someone craves death and is being kept alive to suffer, which is a lot more vengeful than wanting to see someone put to death quickly.

The point is it makes no difference to me what the convicted want, they  have lost the right to decide whether they live or die, starve themselves to death or linger for years like Brady......they should be dead.

how many more times...brady would never have hung.....he was criminally insane....and ...once again we do NOT hang insane people

Lord Foul wrote:syl....since you missed/dodged it last time round


"AND...what are you going to do when a mistake DOES happen eh???   dig him up and say sorry....

say sorry to HIS kids/widow etc....

SORRY????

SORRY WHY......and what good is sorry....

are you THEN prepared to hang everyone involved in the "mistake" ?

the judge jury police forensic "experts" witnesses???

after all THEY are guilty of at least complicity in murder then too...albeit a "state sanctioned murder" but murder non the less

see the problem I have is ...folks want a system...but want neither responsibility for it nor to be actionable for its errors....

yeah ...lets hang em all...and bugger the consequences, sod the odd innocent victim....we dont care.....WE WANT OUR POUND OF FLESH.....but we dont want to know about the "other side" the dark, bad side. We want our charade of "justice"....our "show trials" and our sense of "vicarious victimhood" satisfying....whats that you say...new evidence shows our "dancing puppet" was innocent.....oh well...never mind...he must have been guilty of something . and we can all of us walk away from it blaming the "system" and noone needs be punished."

Syl wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:syl....since you missed/dodged it last time round


"AND...what are you going to do when a mistake DOES happen eh???   dig him up and say sorry....

say sorry to HIS kids/widow etc....

SORRY????

SORRY WHY......and what good is sorry....

are you THEN prepared to hang everyone involved in the "mistake" ?

the judge jury police forensic "experts" witnesses???

after all THEY are guilty of at least complicity in murder then too...albeit a "state sanctioned murder" but murder non the less

see the problem I have is ...folks want a system...but want neither responsibility for it nor to be actionable for its errors....

yeah ...lets hang em all...and bugger the consequences, sod the odd innocent victim....we dont care.....WE WANT OUR POUND OF FLESH.....but we dont want to know about the "other side" the dark, bad side. We want our charade of "justice"....our "show trials" and our sense of "vicarious victimhood" satisfying....whats that you say...new evidence shows our "dancing puppet" was innocent.....oh well...never mind...he must have been guilty of something . and we can all of us walk away from it blaming the "system" and noone needs be punished."

I don't think I missed it or dodged it, I answered and said we obviously see things differently.

I said at the beginning of the thread that the death penalty should only be used for the most heinous of crimes and only when guilt is proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. Technology and DNA  testing has  advanced beyond measure since we last had the death penalty, so no mistakes could be made.





I never said hang them all (they are your words not mine)....I have already said hanging is barbaric.
I don't consider it getting a 'pound of flesh' either...I have already explained that to me the death penalty is not about revenge.

As I said we see things differently. Yesterday you were stating that  the victims families should be the ones to carry out the death sentence if it was ever re instated, according to you it was cowardly and weak to expect the state to do it. YOU would want to do it yourself and look them in the eye when their lights went out....in fact you alternated between John Wayne and Mary Poppins throughout the thread.....at least my views have remained consistent.