The Myth of an Undivided Jerusalem and How the Israeli Palestinian Vote Ain't what it looks

by Guest Wed Jan 08, 2014 11:03 pm

First topic message reminder :

The myth of an undivided Jerusalem is collapsing under its own weight
Binyamin Netanyahu is misguided to believe a two-state Israel-Palestine solution is possible while keeping a deeply divided city intact

Wednesday 8 January 2014 16.32 GMT

As John Kerry's Israeli-Palestinian peace initiative moves into a decisive stage, two Jerusalem truths are becoming crystal clear. First, either the two-state solution will also take place within Jerusalem, or there will be no two-state solution at all. Second, any attempt to reach a permanent status agreement regarding Jerusalem that ignores the already existing, deeply rooted urban realities of this bi-national and divided city is doomed to failure.

These truths were on display on 22 October 2013, when Jerusalem held mayoral elections. The incumbent mayor, Nir Barkat, an up-and-coming political star in Israel's ideological right, was re-elected. His victory was convincing: Barkat received 51.9% of the vote, in comparison with the 44.6% received by his closest rival.

Barkat, along with the Israeli prime minister, Binyamin Netanyahu, is a vocal champion of "Jerusalem-the-eternal-capital-of-Israel-that-will-never-be-divided". Conceding that there have long been major inequities in the level of services between East and West Jerusalem, Barkat proudly claims to have made progress in narrowing the gaps, asserting that his efforts have met with satisfaction from Palestinian residents. Citing this accomplishment, Barkat claims to represent all residents of his city, both Israeli and Palestinian, and has said: "The vast majority of the Arabs in Jerusalem prefer to be on the Israeli side. They don't want the city divided."

At first glance, the 2013 municipal election results appear to support such claims. The number of votes Barkat received from the Palestinian sector in this election was 90% higher than what he received in 2008, winning him 46.9% of votes cast by Palestinians of East Jerusalem. Receiving a percentage of the vote slightly below that which he received from the Israeli sector, Barkat was well ahead of his closest rival, who received only 19.7% of the Palestinian vote.

A more careful look at the numbers, however, tells a very different story. There are approximately 157,382 eligible voters among the Palestinians of East Jerusalem. Of these, a total of 1,101 voted in the 2013 election – meaning a Palestinian voter turnout of only 0.7%. Barkat received 46.9% of these votes – a total of 516 votes, a mere 0.3% of the total vote of all eligible Palestinian voters. In short, Barkat's assertion that he "represents" all residents of Jerusalem is without basis in fact.

Some will argue that Palestinian residents of Jerusalem were intimidated into boycotting the election. This assertion is baseless. All organs of Palestinian authority and political organising in East Jerusalem have been crushed by the government of Israel. There is simply no Palestinian capacity in East Jerusalem to organise a campaign of intimidation, or of anything else of consequence. The Palestinians didn't vote in this election, just as they have refrained from voting in previous municipal elections, because they were making a statement about their own identities: "we are Palestinian, not Israeli".

The results in Israel's national elections for the Knesset, which took place on 22 January last year, are no less illuminating. In those elections, 28.4% of eligible Palestinian voters in East Jerusalem cast a ballot, a seemingly respectable number. A more careful look, once again, tells a different story – in this case a story of formal disenfranchisement.

Out of the approximate 157,382 Palestinian residents of Jerusalem of voting age, only 10,431 actually have the right to vote in Israel's national elections (a number that is artificially high, since it includes thousands of Israeli Arab citizens who moved to Jerusalem from areas in pre-1967 Israel, rather than native Palestinian East Jerusalemites). This means that the number of East Jerusalemite Palestinians entitled to vote in national elections hovers at around 5% of the voting-age Palestinian population of the city. Only 2,965 of the East Jerusalem Palestinians – 1.9% of the Palestinian population – voted in Israel's 2013 national elections, with another 95% denied the right to vote.

This bizarre situation exists because most Palestinians in "undivided Jerusalem" are legally classified as "permanent residents", rather than citizens of Israel. As such, they do not enjoy the right to vote in national elections. An estimated 13,000 Palestinians of all ages, out of a total Palestinian population of 293,000 (37% of Jerusalem's total population), have received Israeli citizenship.

By disenfranchising Palestinians of East Jerusalem from national elections, Israel has declared unequivocally that these residents of Israel's "undivided capital" are not, in fact, part of Israel's body politic. And by overwhelmingly refraining from voting in municipal elections, even when that right exists, Palestinians of East Jerusalem are emphatically agreeing.

The results of these two recent elections reveal the fundamental political truth of contemporary Jerusalem: the only place where Jerusalem is "the undivided capital of Israel" is in the fertile imaginations of ideologues such as Netanyahu and Barkat. Nowhere else in the world is there a prime minister so utterly detached from the daily realities of a city that he claims to be his nation's "exclusive" capital; and nowhere else is there a mayor so utterly disconnected from – and in denial about – the realities of the flesh-and-blood city over which he purports to preside.

Those engaged in the current negotiations can ignore these facts only at great peril. When Netanyahu says he supports the two-state outcome, but opposes anything less than an undivided Jerusalem under sole Israeli sovereignty, he is really saying: "I reject the two-state solution".

The myth of "undivided Jerusalem" is collapsing under the weight of its own fictions. Should the Kerry initiative – the last, best hope for the two-state solution – end in failure, Jerusalem will degenerate into the epicentre of a festering conflict, the arena of recurrent rounds of convulsive violence. But should, against all odds, these talks end in agreement, a new Jerusalem, rooted in its genuine political and urban realities, will emerge: a politically divided, bi-national city, the respective capitals of Israel and Palestine – which is the sine qua non of any permanent status agreement.
http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/jan/08/myth-undivided-jerusalem-israel-palestine-binyamin-netanyahu

Rather gives the lie to Palestinians citizens having the same rights as Israeli citizens.

by Irn Bru Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:35 pm

As long as the Israeli's continue to plan and build new settlements in the occupied territories then their intentions are clear in that they plan to stay and have no plans to leave.
As long as that continues then there can never be reconciliation because it's expecting the Palestinians to live under a state of occupation and they will never accept that.
If anyone can't understand that then they are either blind to what is going on or they are completely in favour of supporting the continued occupation and further encroachment into the lands that are not theirs.
It just can't be seen any other way really.

by SEXY MAMA Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:36 pm

Irn Bru wrote:As long as the Israeli's continue to plan and build new settlements in the occupied territories then their intentions are clear in that they plan to stay and have no plans to leave.
As long as that continues then there can never be reconciliation because it's expecting the Palestinians to live under a state of occupation and they will never accept that.
If anyone can't understand that then they are either blind to what is going on or they are completely in favour of supporting the continued occupation and further encroachment into the lands that are not theirs.
It just can't be seen any other way really.

Exactly Heart.

by Guest Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:48 pm

Irn Bru wrote:As long as the Israeli's continue to plan and build new settlements in the occupied territories then their intentions are clear in that they plan to stay and have no plans to leave.
As long as that continues then there can never be reconciliation because it's expecting the Palestinians to live under a state of occupation and they will never accept that.
If anyone can't understand that then they are either blind to what is going on or they are completely in favour of supporting the continued occupation and further encroachment into the lands that are not theirs.
It just can't be seen any other way really.

Another one seeking to blame, again pointless, both sides do wrong, you only recognise when one does, again mindless and that will solve nothing until both sides stop doing wrongs and look to reconcile.

Another wally who wishes to continue conflict when both have people on both sides wishing to continue the conflict!

Another one who has learnt nothing from Mandela after praising me why I showed he was a great man, priceless

by Irn Bru Thu Jan 09, 2014 9:53 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:As long as the Israeli's continue to plan and build new settlements in the occupied territories then their intentions are clear in that they plan to stay and have no plans to leave.
As long as that continues then there can never be reconciliation because it's expecting the Palestinians to live under a state of occupation and they will never accept that.
If anyone can't understand that then they are either blind to what is going on or they are completely in favour of supporting the continued occupation and further encroachment into the lands that are not theirs.
It just can't be seen any other way really.

Another one seeking to blame, again pointless, both sides do wrong, you only recognise when one does, again mindless and that will solve nothing until both sides stop doing wrongs and look to reconcile.

Another wally who wishes to continue conflict when both have people on both sides wishing to continue the conflict!

Another one who has learnt nothing from Mandela after praising me why I showed he was a great ma, priceless

Can you show me the Israeli withdrawal plan or at least the commitment to stop building new developments and evidence that that is what they are doing?
If you can't then all you are doing is just blowing the Israeli bugle to continue with their current policies and in doing so you are defending them for what they do and encouraging the current conflict to continue.

by Guest Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:01 pm

Irn Bru wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Another one seeking to blame, again pointless, both sides do wrong, you only recognise when one does, again mindless and that will solve nothing until both sides stop doing wrongs and look to reconcile.

Another wally who wishes to continue conflict when both have people on both sides wishing to continue the conflict!

Another one who has learnt nothing from Mandela after praising me why I showed he was a great ma, priceless

Can you show me the Israeli withdrawal plan or at least the commitment to stop building new developments and evidence that that is what they are doing?
If you can't then all you are doing is just blowing the Israeli bugle to continue with their current policies and in doing so you are defending them for what they do and encouraging the current conflict to continue.

What have I just told you Irn? You are seeking blame again, when as stated both sides need to stop doing wrongs, reconcile and find a way forward to peace, that means both will have to make concessions. You are seeking answers to the problems only on one side and not both, when both have grievances and both have suffered and both have continued to fight.

I am blowing nothing but wanting peace for the area, the only time I have backed things before on Israel side or even the Palestinian side is against sassy and smelly, two extremists with hate for each side, because they both seek to destroy the other side with their views, both are wrong. Me the only way forward is through peace through reconciliation.

by SEXY MAMA Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:11 pm

How is Sassy an extremist Didge. Hating the Zionists is not the same as hating Jews for crying out loud!!!!!!!!!

by Irn Bru Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:11 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:

Can you show me the Israeli withdrawal plan or at least the commitment to stop building new developments and evidence that that is what they are doing?
If you can't then all you are doing is just blowing the Israeli bugle to continue with their current policies and in doing so you are defending them for what they do and encouraging the current conflict to continue.

What have I just told you Irn? You are seeking blame again, when as stated both sides need to stop doing wrongs, reconcile and find a way forward to peace, that means both will have to make concessions. You are seeking answers to the problems only on one side and not both, when both have grievances and both have suffered and both have continued to fight.

I am blowing nothing but wanting peace for the area, the only time I have backed things before on Israel side or even the Palestinian side is against sassy and smelly, two extremists with hate for each side, because they both seek to destroy the other side with their views, both are wrong. Me the only way forward is through peace through reconciliation.

You obviously failed to read what I said earlier. I'll repeat it just for you

As long as the Israeli's continue to plan and build new settlements in the occupied territories then their intentions are clear in that they plan to stay and have no plans to leave.
As long as that continues then there can never be reconciliation because it's expecting the Palestinians to live under a state of occupation and they will never accept that.
If anyone can't understand that then they are either blind to what is going on or they are completely in favour of supporting the continued occupation and further encroachment into the lands that are not theirs.
It just can't be seen any other way really.

The path to reconciliation has to start with the Israeli's stopping what they are doing on land that is not theirs. Do you agree with that?

by Guest Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:18 pm

Irn Bru wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

What have I just told you Irn? You are seeking blame again, when as stated both sides need to stop doing wrongs, reconcile and find a way forward to peace, that means both will have to make concessions. You are seeking answers to the problems only on one side and not both, when both have grievances and both have suffered and both have continued to fight.

I am blowing nothing but wanting peace for the area, the only time I have backed things before on Israel side or even the Palestinian side is against sassy and smelly, two extremists with hate for each side, because they both seek to destroy the other side with their views, both are wrong. Me the only way forward is through peace through reconciliation.

You obviously failed to read what I said earlier. I'll repeat it just for you

As long as the Israeli's continue to plan and build new settlements in the occupied territories then their intentions are clear in that they plan to stay and have no plans to leave.
As long as that continues then there can never be reconciliation because it's expecting the Palestinians to live under a state of occupation and they will never accept that.
If anyone can't understand that then they are either blind to what is going on or they are completely in favour of supporting the continued occupation and further encroachment into the lands that are not theirs.
It just can't be seen any other way really.

The path to reconciliation has to start with the Israeli's stopping what they are doing on land that is not theirs. Do you agree with that?

I read what you said earlier and it is the same on both sides, some of the Israelis wish to continue to steal lands, and some on the Palestinian side wish to wipe Israel off the face of the map, it is that simple hence why both sides are wrong, only an idiot of course would see one sid of the arguments, when again both are wrong.

The path then is for both sides to make concessions and stop doing wrongs and accept both have a right to live there, it is that simple accept people like you have been constantly fueling the situation blaming all the time which has gotten neither side no where. You must have been infected with the sassy virus, when it takes hold people just start talking utter garbage and repeating whet she has said, ignoring that both sides are doing wrongs.

I don;t how many times I have to repeat that before it sinks in, both do, which means both sides have to stop doing wrongs together

by Guest Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:20 pm

SEXY MAMA wrote:How is Sassy an extremist Didge. Hating the Zionists is not the same as hating Jews for crying out loud!!!!!!!!!

She hates Israel and Israel is not all Zionists. why hate anyone sexy?

What does that achieve?

Do you think we won WW2 with hate?

No, the conflict in Russia was fought with hate and millions died, not the brightest choice. I don't even hate extremists, because even people can change and I would rather seek to change them

by Guest Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:25 pm

Don't forget to send your shekels to Israel, Goyim unless you're an anti-semite.

by Irn Bru Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:35 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:

You obviously failed to read what I said earlier. I'll repeat it just for you

As long as the Israeli's continue to plan and build new settlements in the occupied territories then their intentions are clear in that they plan to stay and have no plans to leave.
As long as that continues then there can never be reconciliation because it's expecting the Palestinians to live under a state of occupation and they will never accept that.
If anyone can't understand that then they are either blind to what is going on or they are completely in favour of supporting the continued occupation and further encroachment into the lands that are not theirs.
It just can't be seen any other way really.

The path to reconciliation has to start with the Israeli's stopping what they are doing on land that is not theirs. Do you agree with that?

I read what you said earlier and it is the same on both sides, some of the Israelis wish to continue to steal lands, and some on the Palestinian side wish to wipe Israel off the face of the map, it is that simple hence why both sides are wrong, only an idiot of course would see one sid of the arguments, when again both are wrong.

The path then is for both sides to make concessions and stop doing wrongs and accept both have a right to live there, it is that simple accept people like you have been constantly fueling the situation blaming all the time which has gotten neither side no where. You must have been infected with the sassy virus, when it takes hold people just start talking utter garbage and repeating whet she has said, ignoring that both sides are doing wrongs.

I don;t how many times I have to repeat that before it sinks in, both do, which means both sides have to stop doing wrongs together

The way the Israeli's are treating the Palestinians they are hardly in a position to wipe their own backsides let alone wipe Israel off the map. .
So, thre path to reconciliation has to start with the Israeli's stopping what they are doing on land that is not theirs. Do you agree with that?

by Irn Bru Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:38 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
SEXY MAMA wrote:How is Sassy an extremist Didge. Hating the Zionists is not the same as hating Jews for crying out loud!!!!!!!!!

She hates Israel and Israel is not all Zionists. why hate anyone sexy?

What does that achieve?

Do you think we won WW2 with hate?

No, the conflict in Russia was fought with hate and millions died, not the brightest choice. I don't even hate extremists, because even people can change and I would rather seek to change them

I have never seen her say she hates Israel. I have seen her say that she hates what their government are doing in land that is not theirs and I have seen her say that she has friends who are Israeli's. Quite different, isn't it?

by Guest Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:42 pm

Irn Bru wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

I read what you said earlier and it is the same on both sides, some of the Israelis wish to continue to steal lands, and some on the Palestinian side wish to wipe Israel off the face of the map, it is that simple hence why both sides are wrong, only an idiot of course would see one sid of the arguments, when again both are wrong.

The path then is for both sides to make concessions and stop doing wrongs and accept both have a right to live there, it is that simple accept people like you have been constantly fueling the situation blaming all the time which has gotten neither side no where. You must have been infected with the sassy virus, when it takes hold people just start talking utter garbage and repeating whet she has said, ignoring that both sides are doing wrongs.

I don;t how many times I have to repeat that before it sinks in, both do, which means both sides have to stop doing wrongs together

The way the Israeli's are treating the Palestinians they are hardly in a position to wipe their own backsides let alone wipe Israel off the map. .
So, thre path to reconciliation has to start with the Israeli's stopping what they are doing on land that is not theirs. Do you agree with that?

OMG here we go again seeking to only blame one side, you will never learn Irn, sadly so, yes wrongs are done by Israel, we all know this, if you read my last answer and countless overs peace will only be achieved when both stop doing wrongs and reconcile.
How many times do I have to repeat that before it sinks in?

No she very much hates Israel, read how she words certain things on the subject

by Irn Bru Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:49 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:

The way the Israeli's are treating the Palestinians they are hardly in a position to wipe their own backsides let alone wipe Israel off the map. .
So, thre path to reconciliation has to start with the Israeli's stopping what they are doing on land that is not theirs. Do you agree with that?

OMG here we go again seeking to only blame one side, you will never learn Irn, sadly so, yes wrongs are done by Israel, we all know this, if you read my last answer and countless overs peace will only be achieved when both stop doing wrongs and reconcile.
How many times do I have to repeat that before it sinks in?

No she very much hates Israel, read how she words certain things on the subject

See, there you go again. You just can't bring yourself to say that the process of reconciliation has to start with Israel stopping their current policy of building new developments on land that is not theirs because that is the reality of what is keeping this conflict going and stalling the start of the peace process.
By refusing to do that then you are as good as supporting what they are doing and there is no other way to look at it.

Now show me evidence where Sassy has said that she hates Israel?

by Guest Thu Jan 09, 2014 10:55 pm

Dear me lets recap for the stupid it seems.

Both sides do wrongs

Both sides needs to stop doing the wrongs.

This will only happen not if one side does this or that, but when both stop doing wrongs.

How difficult is this for some people.

Lets dumb it down further for those that are clueless.

This means that each side has to stop doing the wrongs they are doing.

This means both sides have to recognise each others existence

This means both sides have to reconcile and to do this they have to stop doing wrongs, both of them and recognise what they both do is wrong.

I also said read what sassy says in her points, she may not say she hates Israel, but it is very apparent in her arguments she does

by Guest Thu Jan 09, 2014 11:59 pm

PhilDidge wrote:Jesus what next, shall we give the land back to the Egyptians because they once live and ruled the land!

Yet you said: Still not getting it, both sides need to put aside differences and both with claims to the lands, the Muslims have been living there for some time, the Christians longer, the Jews even longer, so what, all have a right to be there and live there without conflict. Peace will come about when both decide to really seek peace and allow each other to exist in peace. - When I showed you that just 100 years ago (a lot more relevant, and when the partitioning of Palestine started, there were barely any Jewish people there, and those that were had immigrated there in recent history.

You know nothing, either of that time, or everything that has happened since. Even the Israel peace movement says there can be no peace while the Israeli government continues with it's policies and they are the stumbling block to peace.

by Irn Bru Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:35 am

Sassy wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:Jesus what next, shall we give the land back to the Egyptians because they once live and ruled the land!

Yet you said: Still not getting it, both sides need to put aside differences and both with claims to the lands, the Muslims have been living there for some time, the Christians longer, the Jews even longer, so what, all have a right to be there and live there without conflict. Peace will come about when both decide to really seek peace and allow each other to exist in peace. - When I showed you that just 100 years ago (a lot more relevant, and when the partitioning of Palestine started, there were barely any Jewish people there, and those that were had immigrated there in recent history.

You know nothing, either of that time, or everything that has happened since. Even the Israel peace movement says there can be no peace while the Israeli government continues with it's policies and they are the stumbling block to peace.

They are indeed but Didge just keeps blowing the Israeli bugle by refusing to accept that as long as they keep planning new developments on land that is not theirs then the peace and reconciliation that he keeps saying he wants to happen can never begin.

There is no commitment by the Israeli's to stop and no plans to withdraw so their intentions are clear - they are in occupied land that is not theirs and they have no intention of giving it up.

Job done.

by Guest Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:25 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Sassy wrote:

Yet you said: Still not getting it, both sides need to put aside differences and both with claims to the lands, the Muslims have been living there for some time, the Christians longer, the Jews even longer, so what, all have a right to be there and live there without conflict. Peace will come about when both decide to really seek peace and allow each other to exist in peace. - When I showed you that just 100 years ago (a lot more relevant, and when the partitioning of Palestine started, there were barely any Jewish people there, and those that were had immigrated there in recent history.

You know nothing, either of that time, or everything that has happened since. Even the Israel peace movement says there can be no peace while the Israeli government continues with it's policies and they are the stumbling block to peace.

They are indeed but Didge just keeps blowing the Israeli bugle by refusing to accept that as long as they keep planning new developments on land that is not theirs then the peace and reconciliation that he keeps saying he wants to happen can never begin.

There is no commitment by the Israeli's to stop and no plans to withdraw so their intentions are clear - they are in occupied land that is not theirs and they have no intention of giving it up.

Job done.

Telling porkies again Irn I see, I have made my point very clear that both sides need to stop the wrongs being done and come to reconciliation, you only expert one side to do so, which is wrong, hence why you will never truly understand what is meant by reconciliation. I have stated time and again new settlements are wrong, not sure how many times someone has to say something to get past the stupidity of some people, but it also takes much from both sides. Again only idiots look at one side of the problem and never both because only idiots know their argument is flawed as both yours and Sassy's is

by Guest Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:30 am

Sassy wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:Jesus what next, shall we give the land back to the Egyptians because they once live and ruled the land!

Yet you said: Still not getting it, both sides need to put aside differences and both with claims to the lands, the Muslims have been living there for some time, the Christians longer, the Jews even longer, so what, all have a right to be there and live there without conflict. Peace will come about when both decide to really seek peace and allow each other to exist in peace. - When I showed you that just 100 years ago (a lot more relevant, and when the partitioning of Palestine started, there were barely any Jewish people there, and those that were had immigrated there in recent history.

You know nothing, either of that time, or everything that has happened since. Even the Israel peace movement says there can be no peace while the Israeli government continues with it's policies and they are the stumbling block to peace.

I am showing you that all these groups of people have been fighting over the same area for ages all over stupid religious beliefs, hence why I stated that it would be better to make Jerusalem a Free City, which you thought was stupid and then came up with a daft analogy about London which was no comparison. The point on this is people will always lay claim to land, arguing who has been there is pointless when the demographics has changed after so long which again you fail to grasp. There will not be peace with the present Israeli government neither with Hamas either, hence the point I keep making that it will only change when things change from both sides, the point you neglect every time. You stupidity pick sides when both sides do wrong, you sickly make comparisons over the deaths of people, when all deaths are wrong

by Guest Fri Jan 10, 2014 10:53 am

All you have shown is that you have no conception of what is actually happening in the Israel and Palestine and the moment, and you don't want to know.

by Guest Fri Jan 10, 2014 12:37 pm

Sassy wrote:All you have shown is that you have no conception of what is actually happening in the Israel and Palestine and the moment, and you don't want to know.

Utter Garbage, yes i do, unlike you though I have not allowed emotions to cloud my judgement on the problems in the Middle east and see problems with both sides, hence my point only peace can come when both sides stop the wrongs being done and recognise each others right to an existence and to live there.
So please spare me your pathetic guilt trip claptrap, I know far more about the history of the area like i say than you can even begin to imagine.
Try taking your head out of the sand and see that there are those on both sides wishing to continue a conflict

by Original Quill Fri Jan 10, 2014 4:54 pm

Hi Didge,

Look, these are true believers, in the sense that Eric Hoffer intended the term. The True Believer: Thoughts On The Nature Of Mass Movements (1951, reprt. 2002) Neither facts nor logic will turn them. Their ideology comes first.

There's no point in discussing the matter with them, you'll just go round in circles.

Cheers.

by Guest Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:11 pm

PhilDidge wrote:
Sassy wrote:All you have shown is that you have no conception of what is actually happening in the Israel and Palestine and the moment, and you don't want to know.

Utter Garbage, yes i do, unlike you though I have not allowed emotions to cloud my judgement on the problems in the Middle east and see problems with both sides, hence my point only peace can come when both sides stop the wrongs being done and recognise each others right to an existence and to live there.
So please spare me your pathetic guilt trip claptrap, I know far more about the history of the area like i say than you can even begin to imagine.
Try taking your head out of the sand and see that there are those on both sides wishing to continue a conflict

We weren't talking about history, you said that something that was 100 years ago didn't matter, we were talking about present day, which you have no conception of and I have been talking about with people there for years. Israeli people, who are ashamed of the things their government is doing.

by Guest Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:39 pm

Sassy wrote:
PhilDidge wrote:

Utter Garbage, yes i do, unlike you though I have not allowed emotions to cloud my judgement on the problems in the Middle east and see problems with both sides, hence my point only peace can come when both sides stop the wrongs being done and recognise each others right to an existence and to live there.
So please spare me your pathetic guilt trip claptrap, I know far more about the history of the area like i say than you can even begin to imagine.
Try taking your head out of the sand and see that there are those on both sides wishing to continue a conflict

We weren't talking about history, you said that something that was 100 years ago didn't matter, we were talking about present day, which you have no conception of and I have been talking about with people there for years. Israeli people, who are ashamed of the things their government is doing.

Really, I think if you look back you were talking about history and how at one time a hundred years ago the demographics was different when you stated 1917, that was you, not me, so stop trying to worm your way out of saying things. Yes you talk to people with the exact same views as yours, that is not learning about the problem, I mean have you even been to Israel, as I have, that might help if you actually did, and I see no apartheid. Again you still do not grasp, peace will only come through reconciliation, as on both sides there are those that seek to continue the conflict

by Guest Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:43 pm

Which you said was not relevant, so I said I agree, it's what is happening now that counts. More custard. You can't help yourself. Do try and remember what you say.

by Guest Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:51 pm

Sassy wrote:Which you said was not relevant, so I said I agree, it's what is happening now that counts. More custard. You can't help yourself. Do try and remember what you say.

Oh my you will never learn sassy and for that I pity you and will stand against your hate campaign you promote on here daily, is as bad as smelly is against the Palestinians, when I want to see peace for both

by Guest Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:54 pm

Which just points out to anyone who knows anything about what is going on, how you know absolutely nothing about what would produce peace in the area.

by Original Quill Fri Jan 10, 2014 5:57 pm

Sassy wrote:Which just points out to anyone who knows anything about what is going on, how you know absolutely nothing about what would produce peace in the area.

Does that leave you out, sassy? You're hardly objective.

by Guest Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:00 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Sassy wrote:Which just points out to anyone who knows anything about what is going on, how you know absolutely nothing about what would produce peace in the area.

Does that leave you out, sassy? You're hardly objective.

I'm the only one who has been talking to people trying to bring about peace for years, and actually knows what needs to happen before peace can be attained.

by Guest Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:06 pm

Peace did she say, your arguments are claiming people need to fight back over claims to lands, which is what has been happening for the last 65 years and has achieved nothing accept countless bloodshed, because there is those on both sides saying what you are saying, silly claims to lands

by Guest Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:07 pm

And again, shows you know nothing.

by Guest Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:09 pm

I know far ore than you sassy as the claims from both sides are daft to say the least, the claims are the reason that conflict continues, something you fail to understand.

I stated yesterday that what would be best is to make Jerusalem a free city, you though were no it should belong to the Palestinians, why? You seek to fuel the problem not solve it, that is apparant

by Guest Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:10 pm

And again, shows you know nothing.

by Guest Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:15 pm

Actually as stated I know far more about the history of the area than you could hope to in 10 lifetimes, because as stated I look at all sides of the arguments, you only look at one, which is where you go wrong. Now I want more than anything for Palestinians to have a nation recognised by Israel and the same with them recognising Israel and for them to live in peace. If I had my way I would merge both nations and make it a new country called "Hope", no religion played a part in this new country, no ethnicity played a part here also, no claim to who has right to lands just people living together bound by one thing, humanity!

by Guest Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:18 pm

And again, shows you know nothing

by Guest Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:19 pm

Really, just because you say so does not mean I do not and clearly as your last 3 replies are just the same means you have nothing as per usual to add.

by Guest Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:32 pm

And again, shows you know nothing

by Guest Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:45 pm

You are not even debating now, oh well

by Guest Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:47 pm

Sassy wrote:And again, shows you know nothing

"I'm going to say you're wrong without explaining why or refuting your point."

by Guest Fri Jan 10, 2014 6:59 pm

Didge repeats the same thing over and over, tries to make out he's the new Mandela and shows over and over again that he has no understanding of the problems that have to be addressed before peace can be discussed. Therefore, that's all he is getting from now on. He's a know-nothing twit who like to promote his own image (he thinks Rolling Eyes

) instead of addressing the problems. So that is all he is worth.

by Guest Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:05 pm

Sassy wrote:Didge repeats the same thing over and over, tries to make out he's the new Mandela and shows over and over again that he has no understanding of the problems that have to be addressed before peace can be discussed. Therefore, that's all he is getting from now on. He's a know-nothing twit who like to promote his own image (he thinks ) instead of addressing the problems. So that is all he is worth.

The fact is you know my point is right and hence why you are unable to argue against not just one point but many, so fine am happy to stand by my points if you have now decided you cannot counter them. Anyone with common sense knows what I am saying is right here that endless blaming is not going to resolve this issue, only as stated when both recognise each is doing wrong and to then reconcile and resolve any differences

by Guest Fri Jan 10, 2014 7:08 pm

And again, shows you know nothing

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