East - West

Tommy Monk wrote:One minute veya is going on about how Australians are so great and so able to create stuff and how much better off they would all be if they were able to sell all their stuff more freely into other countries... then next minute he is claiming they don't have anything because the English have already raped and pillaged it all and that we need to give it all back!!!

One minute he is banging on about how advanced and innovative they are and how great they are... then he is ranting about the ruin of the old ways of the people and the spoiling of the land...!!!

He is clearly displaying signs of cognitive dissonance... and his inability to reconcile the opposing views is the cause of a deep inner turmoil... he has one view that promotes hatred of the other side... but he is also part of the other side defending himself and hating the first... and then also hating himself for being both as well as being in the middle and not being truly either...

This somewhat explains his untoward outbursts towards others...

And Victor... top respect... we may disagree but I will also fight for your right to say your opinion!

Eddie... you are great here... your ability to see both sides of arguments is a wonderful ability... but some will see it as an opportunity to 'win' by trying to argue you onto THEIR side... to then try to get you to use your mod powers against others they don't like...

The rules are beyond personal opinion, as Vic has shown, and need to be applied to all regardless if they are to mean anything at all...

Firm but fair is the only way to command respect.

Paul Ettinger wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:


Nicko you seem to miss that Most of You post stuff that Puts EVERYONE Else down.
Maybe I am sick of the people that come in 18th telling me their nation is the best. Clearly it isn't.  
With 100% honesty I have never really had an issue with Brits it has always been teasing in jest....
Until this site and the posters i have encountered here.


And Why not ASK WHY do you lot HATE the Aboriginals so much? that After ALL they have suffered you still think it is appropriate to attack and belittle the culture that is literally dying, that is relying on white Aussie to keep it alive, because the Damage done historically by whites is so severe. they literally never did anything but be hurt by your nation.

You see more inventions, as where has anybody says they hate the aboriginies?
I constantly back those who want self determination, which you argue against, which is utterly wrong as you have no right to say so as you are one person and do not speak for them all.
Anyway you seem to be on some hate fest, and that is dull to even attempt to reason with you, as hate achieves very little.
So enjoy being angry, its only going to effect your health, which is very stupid and maybe you will think about that first and foremost, as nobody wishes to see you become ill. I suggest you take a deep breath and relax.

Paul Ettinger wrote: So you have one poster who holds what can be established as a prejudice view, but nothing to cliaim as being hateful, of which there a vast difference. Which based on Tommy's track record with people of darker skin, I will allow that to stand Though to recap, you stated " And Why not ASK WHY do you lot HATE the Aboriginals so much? ". That is plural, as in many, and you provided Tommy only. So again you are castigating many people for views they do not even hold. Thus again you are just inventing things not said by many.

Paul Ettinger wrote: Look, you could provide Tommy with going up on the next future Mooon landing, and thus he can see for himself the mooon landings did happen and he would still deny they happened. Tommy is very much a closed book, but at least he is not screaming hate at many people, jut because you have taken a disliking to some.

Paul Ettinger wrote:Self determination has nothing to do with Eurocentric, so I am afraid you are talking gibberish.
Self Determination, is a Cardinal Principle in International Law, of which this is thus a Peremptory norm. In other words.

"A peremptory norm (also called jus cogens or ius cogens /ˌdʒʌs ˈkoʊdʒɛnz/ or /ˌjʌs/;[1] Latin for "compelling law") is a fundamental principle of international law that is accepted by the international community of states as a norm from which no derogation is permitted."

Well considering the early colonialists did not believe in the self determination of others. Plus you do not as well back the right of self dertmination for the Aboriginies, places you as to being comparable to the Colonialists, but then you are a nation of Colonialists. The Colonial Era, basically finished in the later to late 20th century. So due to the fact this is a major part of international law, of which European nations have to abide by, thus played a part in creation of numeroeus nations in the 20th and 21st century.
It may also escape your notice as well that both Nazi Germany and Russia both invaded Poland, because like you, they refused to recognise the self determination of a people. Poland was the erazed off the map by both nations, so its ironic that you brought up Poland really.

Paul Ettinger wrote: So again you seem to think you speak for all Aboriginals now, with now even worse being like some of the worst religions, forcing them to be part of a nation that some of them do not want to be classified as. They want their own autonomy. I mean both Aussies and Yanks continually bemoan European colonialism, but at least they have allowed for self dertmination of former overseas territories and have allowed for people in Scotland to vote whether they wanted to be independent. Now I would rather have Scotland remain as part of the UK, but I would respect the fact if they voted through on a referendum to become independent. As it is their right through self determination to decide this for themselves. Just as the Bitish people will get the chance to bote on whether they want to remain in the EU. But of we look at both the US and Australia, they both continually deny the self determination of the indgeneous natives in their countries. Where and this is the real kicker. The Palestinians have a right to self determination, even though they are a relatively new people and even though there is already a country with a majority of Palestinians, its called Jordan. But they still have the right to self dertmination in the West bank and Gaza, though I would never back or support the present leadership, in Fatah and Hamas, as they both deny many human rights. Though I can still back the Palestinians right to self determination, even if they then voted for both to lead the New Palestinian state, continuing to condemn their policies. Though there has been no elections since both came to power, so they are already denying self determination to the Palestinians.

The thing is though, they have had 4 chances, the British in 1937 partition plan, the 1947 UN partition plan. And two times from Israel, with the Oslo accords which brough for the first time the ability for the Palestinians to have self determination in the West Bank and Gaza, where they never did under the British Mandate or occupation by Jordan and Egypt. Both sides agree to allow Israel maintain security in area C. Then we had the last proposal in 2008, which there is no reason they should have turned in down, because.

One, there would be a territorial solution to the conflict on the basis of the 1967 borders with minor modifications on both sides. Israel will claim part of the West Bank where there have been demographic changes over the last 40 years..
Abbas acknowledged that Olmert had shown him a map proposing a Palestinian state on 97 percent of the West Bank and part of Jerusalem -- though he complained that the Israeli leader refused to give him a copy of the plan. He confirmed that Olmert "accepted the principle" of the "right of return" of Palestinian refugees -- something no previous Israeli prime minister had done -- and offered to resettle thousands in Israel. In all, Olmert's peace offer was more generous to the Palestinians than either that of Bush or Bill Clinton; it's almost impossible to imagine Obama, or any Israeli government, going further.

Abbas turned it down. "The gaps were wide," he said. (May 29, 2009)

So its ironic, that Israel is so badly target by the UN, even though they have tried to come to peace with the Palestinians and yet they do absolutely zero and say nothing about both America and Australia, who both ooposed the following declaration.

UN Declaration on Rights of Indigenous Peoples

After taking more than 20 years to draft and agree, on June 29, 2006, the United Nations Human Rights Council adopted the U.N. Draft Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.
The Declaration emphasizes the right of indigenous peoples to maintain and strengthen their own institutions, cultures and traditions and to pursue their development in accordance with their aspirations and needs.
Although it would not be legally binding if it were ever adopted by the General Assembly, indigenous communities around the world have pressed hard for this and have felt that the adoption of the declaration will help indigenous people in their efforts against discrimination, racism, oppression, marginalization and exploitation.

Some historically and currently powerful countries have been opposed to various rights and provisions for indigenous peoples, because of the implications to their territory, or because it would tacitly recognize they have been involved in major injustices during periods of colonialism and imperialism. Giving such people’s the ability to regain some lost land, for example, would be politically explosive.

Inter Press Service
(IPS) notes, for example, that countries such as the United States, Australia, and New Zealand, have all been opposed to this declaration. These countries have noted in a joint statement that “No government can accept the notion of creating different classes of citizens.”

So I suggest before you going running your mouth off about the Brits and so,e of the bad things it did in the past, you may want to get your own house in order, when you are denying the self determination of the indegeneous people in your country and America. The US has at least paid restitutions in the form of over a billion dollars, which when you think about it, is still poor, considering the countless treaties the US Governemnts in history constantly broke with the native Indians, which was detremental in the expansions of US terrirtory. So bad was the breaking of all these treaties, the decimination of various different tribes and cultures, that they constanly lied to the Indegenous tribes, in order to steal their lands. Though we see them do little to make this right. So like I say, the Americans and Aussies on here have no justification to sound off at the Brits. When both nations deny a major principle in International law. The self determination, of their indegeneous people. Which is why I have continually told posters from both nations that both Australia and the US are years behind the UK when it comes to progression.

Tommy Monk wrote:One minute veya is going on about how Australians are so great and so able to create stuff and how much better off they would all be if they were able to sell all their stuff more freely into other countries... then next minute he is claiming they don't have anything because the English have already raped and pillaged it all and that we need to give it all back!!!


One minute he is banging on about how advanced and innovative they are and how great they are... then he is ranting about the ruin of the old ways of the people and the spoiling of the land...!!!


He is clearly displaying signs of cognitive dissonance... and his inability to reconcile the opposing views is the cause of a deep inner turmoil... he has one view that promotes hatred of the other side... but he is also part of the other side defending himself and hating the first... and then also hating himself for being both as well as being in the middle and not being truly either...



This somewhat explains his untoward outbursts towards others...




And Victor... top respect... we may disagree but I will also fight for your right to say your opinion!




Eddie... you are great here... your ability to see both sides of arguments is a wonderful ability... but some will see it as an opportunity to 'win' by trying to argue you onto THEIR side... to then try to get you to use your mod powers against others they don't like...



The rules are beyond personal opinion, as Vic has shown, and need to be applied to all regardless if they are to mean anything at all...


Firm but fair is the only way to command respect.