Teenage Girls Found Guilty Of ‘Sustained And Brutal’ Murder Of Alcoholic Angela Wrightson In Her Own Home

First topic message reminder :

Two teenage girls have been found guilty of murdering a 39-year-old woman in her own home. The pair, who cannot be named for legal reasons, were convicted of the murder of alcoholic Angela Wrightson by a jury at Leeds Crown Court. The teenagers were aged 13 and 14 when they killed Wrightson in December 2014.

Wrightson was found dead in her blood-spattered living room in Hartlepool, County Durham, with more than 100 injuries.

Both girls were in tears after the verdicts and were led from the dock immediately.

The seven-week trial heard that the girls used a variety of weapons, including a coffee table and a computer printer, to carry out the “sustained and brutal” attack over a prolonged period.

Wrightson was found naked from the waist down and grit and shards of glass had been scattered over her, jurors heard.

The teenagers beat Wrightson to death over a period of several hours, before phoning police and asking for a lift home. While being transported in the police van they took a selfie, the jury heard.


http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/teenage-girls-found-guilty-of-angela-wrightson-murder_uk_5703c639e4b069ef5c00df92?utm_hp_ref=uk


Hope the Judge hits them with the longest sentence possible

G

Raggamuffin wrote:

Miffs2 wrote:
Mmmm
I can't comment further. But I will say I would happily execute Venables myself.

I understand your feelings. You're right - it was a kind of experiment and I'm not sure it worked. I don't know what happened to Thompson, but Venables certainly doesn't seem to have fared very well. How could he really? He killed a little kid, and the idea of the rehabilitation was to make him face up to that, but how do you face up to something like that and try to be normal?

Quite frankly, I don't know how Mary Bell lives with herself, or how she could have a child after what she did. No conscience?

No conscience would account for it, but so would evil

Tommy Monk wrote:

eddie wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:That's why we have prisons eddie...!!!

Well yes I know Tommy! That's why I'm not getting what vic is getting at.

So what did you mean when you said they should be given a chance and given help etc...?

Counselling and help, whilst they're serving their time, to find out what made them do it.

Or are people just simply born evil?

That's a general question btw, not just directed at you

If you believe people are born gay... why not some born evil too...?

Miffs2 wrote:G

Raggamuffin wrote:

I understand your feelings. You're right - it was a kind of experiment and I'm not sure it worked. I don't know what happened to Thompson, but Venables certainly doesn't seem to have fared very well. How could he really? He killed a little kid, and the idea of the rehabilitation was to make him face up to that, but how do you face up to something like that and try to be normal?

Quite frankly, I don't know how Mary Bell lives with herself, or how she could have a child after what she did. No conscience?

No conscience would account for it, but so would evil

I was too young to remember that case really, but if hadn't been I'm sure I would have been just as shocked as everyone else - like everyone was shocked at the murder of Jamie Bulger and now this poor lady. Mary Bell was convicted of manslaughter only - which is amazing considering what she did. Her friend, Norma Bell, was acquitted, and I don't know what happened to her. If Mary Bell had reoffended, I think there would have been uproar at her lenient sentence.

eddie wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:


So what did you mean when you said they should be given a chance and given help etc...?

Counselling and help,whisky they're serving their time, to find out what made them do it.

Or are people just simply born evil?

That's a general question btw, not just directed at you

Whisky? Is that a good idea?

I think the problem is that treating them like victims who need help doesn't really give any justice to poor Angela Wrightson, who could have done with more help really.

The best punishment for them would come from their own consciences - if they have such a thing. At least they will not be released when they're 18 - unless there's an appeal and some do gooder decides they were "victims".

Tommy Monk wrote:If you believe people are born gay... why not some born evil too...?

Yes it's possible isn't it?
And they will only find that out by counselling them

Superficially speaking, it would be interesting to know why they did it - I mean the immediate motive. Did Angela refuse to give them booze or something? They weren't going to admit anything of course because they wanted to get off, but maybe a motive will come to light later.

eddie wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:If you believe people are born gay... why not some born evil too...?

Yes it's possible isn't it?
And they will only find that out by counselling them

And what then? Release them anyway? They got minimum sentences, but they could be kept in prison if they're deemed to be beyond rehabilitation.

The thing is - it's not just that they killed her, it's the whole thing - the way it went on for hours, the way they giggled and took photos, the way they just brazenly called the police for a lift home and walked away from Angela's dead body without a second thought, and then took yet another photo in the police van, all the time giggling and having "fun". Does that sound like girls who had a "moment of madness"?

eddie wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:
So what did you mean when you said they should be given a chance and given help etc...?

Counselling and help, whilst they're serving their time, to find out what made them do it.
Or are people just simply born evil?

That's a general question btw, not just directed at you

I've always 'HOPED' that our penal system was so superior in dealing with our youth specifically that upon incarceration that this would insure some obvious mental and social help; along with some serious education/vo-tech training that would give them a positive purpose in life for future use! 
Unfortunately - my naïveté about that has had a serious reality check for 'lack of funding' and the truth of what our youth REALLY learn once they're locked up as juvenile offenders...   

And to answer your proposed question; ...sadly, I've found this to be true - some humans are "simply born evil"   

We can justify it their behavior with: social/environmental/nurture vs nature/anti-socialization/something lacking in their chromosomes/they aren't mentally wired the same as you or I ...but it all still comes back to 'they were really F'd up when they were born'!

eddie wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:If you believe people are born gay... why not some born evil too...?

Yes it's possible isn't it?
And they will only find that out by counselling them

And there will be plenty of 'counselling' going on in prison!!!

The older girl is a liar. She claimed in court that she had only gone into the house because the younger one did, and that she was scared of Angela. She lied - CCTV footage showed she went in first. She did everything she could to excuse what she did.

Is it right that these girls are treated as victims? They had enough "fun" at the house and afterwards. I hope those smirks have been wiped off their faces, and their giggles have been stifled for good.

Let them rot I say... they are vicious and barbaric murderers and a danger to society!

Tommy Monk wrote:Let them rot I say... they are vicious and barbaric murderers and a danger to society!

I agree Tommy. The sheer severity and manner of the crime, and their complete lack of any kind of remorse - other than being sorry they were caught - doesn't bode well really.

They are not the victims... they are murderers!

Raggamuffin wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Let them rot I say... they are vicious and barbaric murderers and a danger to society!

I agree Tommy. The sheer severity and manner of the crime, and their complete lack of any kind of remorse - other than being sorry they were caught - doesn't bode well really.

Adjudication for crimes committed upon another human is what we have our judicial system for.  But on the other hand --- reviewing the methods and reasons behind their behavior only improves our ability to garner any snippets of early warning signs that would benefit future youth and the direction that their inability to make positive choices in life - even when dealing with horrible family situations while growing up!

As distasteful as this horror story is - the basics about their past history has a tale to tell as well, and any information gleaned and used to benefit another possible human with anti-social issues is good information and needs to be shared. IMO

T

Raggamuffin wrote:

Miffs2 wrote:G

No conscience would account for it, but so would evil

I was too young to remember that case really, but if hadn't been I'm sure I would have been just as shocked as everyone else - like everyone was shocked at the murder of Jamie Bulger and now this poor lady. Mary Bell was convicted of manslaughter only - which is amazing considering what she did. Her friend, Norma Bell, was acquitted, and I don't know what happened to her. If Mary Bell had reoffended, I think there would have been uproar at her lenient sentence.

I have to say I'm too young to remember it too lol I only know because the mother of the first lad killed was a friend of my nana.

4EVER2 wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:
I agree Tommy. The sheer severity and manner of the crime, and their complete lack of any kind of remorse - other than being sorry they were caught - doesn't bode well really.

Adjudication for crimes committed upon another human is what we have our judicial system for.  But on the other hand --- reviewing the methods and reasons behind their behavior only improves our ability to garner any snippets of early warning signs that would benefit future youth and the direction that their inability to make positive choices in life - even when dealing with horrible family situations while growing up!

As distasteful as this horror story is - the basics about their past history has a tale to tell as well, and any information gleaned and used to benefit another possible human with anti-social issues is good information and needs to be shared. IMO

Would it actually make a difference though? Are we to assume that any girls in care might commit a gruesome murder and lock them up at night? Should we assume that anyone who displays temper tantrums might go and torture another person for hours? Do we assume that anyone who runs away from a care home is a potential murderer?

It seems that the older girl at least did have some kind of therapy to try to deal with her anger issues.

Miffs2 wrote:T

Raggamuffin wrote:

I was too young to remember that case really, but if hadn't been I'm sure I would have been just as shocked as everyone else - like everyone was shocked at the murder of Jamie Bulger and now this poor lady. Mary Bell was convicted of manslaughter only - which is amazing considering what she did. Her friend, Norma Bell, was acquitted, and I don't know what happened to her. If Mary Bell had reoffended, I think there would have been uproar at her lenient sentence.

I have to say I'm too young to remember it too lol I only know because the mother of the first lad killed was a friend of my nana.

Really? Poor lady - the mother I mean.

Mary Bell was called a psychopath, and she escaped a murder conviction on the grounds of diminished responsibility. Can a psychopath ever change I wonder.

Raggamuffin wrote:

4EVER2 wrote:
Adjudication for crimes committed upon another human is what we have our judicial system for.  But on the other hand --- reviewing the methods and reasons behind their behavior only improves our ability to garner any snippets of early warning signs that would benefit future youth and the direction that their inability to make positive choices in life - even when dealing with horrible family situations while growing up!

As distasteful as this horror story is - the basics about their past history has a tale to tell as well, and any information gleaned and used to benefit another possible human with anti-social issues is good information and needs to be shared. IMO

Would it actually make a difference though? Are we to assume that any girls in care might commit a gruesome murder and lock them up at night? Should we assume that anyone who displays temper tantrums might go and torture another person for hours? Do we assume that anyone who runs away from a care home is a potential murderer?

It seems that the older girl at least did have some kind of therapy to try to deal with her anger issues.

WOW...you do a whole lot of 'ASSUMPTIONS' there woman!

From Dr. Freud to present day...all we've learned about mankind and the inner workings of our cognitive {or the lack there of} thought processes have been by studying the WHAT/WHY/HOW people with all types of social interactions reacted to any given stimuli 


Whether it be medicalized/natural/environmental/pre-disposed due to neurological or physical impairments --- can't be done by a

4EVER2 wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Would it actually make a difference though? Are we to assume that any girls in care might commit a gruesome murder and lock them up at night? Should we assume that anyone who displays temper tantrums might go and torture another person for hours? Do we assume that anyone who runs away from a care home is a potential murderer?

It seems that the older girl at least did have some kind of therapy to try to deal with her anger issues.

WOW...you do a whole lot of 'ASSUMPTIONS' there woman!

From Dr. Freud to present day...all we've learned about mankind and the inner workings of our cognitive {or the lack there of} thought processes have been by studying the WHAT/WHY/HOW people with all types of social interactions reacted to any given stimuli  [IMG]http://www.sherv.net/cm/emoticons/fighting/angel-smiley-fighting-with-devil.gif[/IMG]

Whether it be medicalized/natural/environmental/pre-disposed due to neurological or physical impairments --- can't be done by a

So how does anyone know if they prevented a kid from becoming a murderer? If the motives for murder are so varied, how does one know what to deal with?

So how does anyone know if they prevented a kid from becoming a murderer?
 If the motives for murder are so varied, how does one know what to deal with?

A.) If past events/crimes/personal histories provide clues about how a twisted thought process can be redirected and the emotional tools provided to learn HOW TO DEAL WITH STRESSFUL SITUATIONS...then YES, our mental health/medical personnel have made many changes for a vast amount of humans!
B.)Going to college and studying: general psychology/family psychology/developmental physciology & psychology/marriage physiology/abnormal - criminal physiology & psychology
C.) finding someone with all of those 'sheep skin' {degrees} to aide us with: seeing the warning signs - getting the help early enough to provide that child with the EMOTIONAL TOOLS to make the right choices - and being a responsible parent/guardian to follow through with the necessary appointments and time.

Despite the 'Hopes & Well Wishes'...we humans rarely ever give birth to a PERFECT HUMAN; there are loads of emotional cripples walking out here among us...and they just need a trigger to start the emotional fuse to explode!

4EVER2 wrote:

So how does anyone know if they prevented a kid from becoming a murderer?
 If the motives for murder are so varied, how does one know what to deal with?

A.) If past events/crimes/personal histories provide clues about how a twisted thought process can be redirected and the emotional tools provided to learn HOW TO DEAL WITH STRESSFUL SITUATIONS...then YES, our mental health/medical personnel have made many changes for a vast amount of humans!
B.)Going to college and studying: general psychology/family psychology/developmental physciology & psychology/marriage physiology/abnormal - criminal physiology & psychology
C.) finding someone with all of those 'sheep skin' {degrees} to aide us with: seeing the warning signs - getting the help early enough to provide that child with the EMOTIONAL TOOLS to make the right choices - and being a responsible parent/guardian to follow through with the necessary appointments and time.

Despite the 'Hopes & Well Wishes'...we humans rarely ever give birth to a PERFECT HUMAN; there are loads of emotional cripples walking out here among us...and they just need a trigger to start the emotional fuse to explode!

I'm not keen on your tone - leave out the "head banging" eh? If you want to discuss this, don't treat me like I'm "wrong" or stupid.

Raggamuffin wrote:

eddie wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:If you believe people are born gay... why not some born evil too...?

Yes it's possible isn't it?
And they will only find that out by counselling them

And what then? Release them anyway? They got minimum sentences, but they could be kept in prison if they're deemed to be beyond rehabilitation.

Then that's fair enough. If someone is "beyond rehabilitation" it means they're inherently evil and will never change.

eddie wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

And what then? Release them anyway? They got minimum sentences, but they could be kept in prison if they're deemed to be beyond rehabilitation.

Then that's fair enough. If someone is "beyond rehabilitation" it means they're inherently evil and will never change.

I think they already are beyond that tbh. I'd give them as much of a chance as they gave Angela Wrightson.

We all know that they'll get the best of care - at least until they go to an adult prison, and they'll be let out after 15 years - that's if there isn't an appeal and their sentences are reduced on the grounds that they're "vulnerable". They weren't very vulnerable when they restrained Angela and picked up the TV and smashed it on her head. They weren't vulnerable when they were taking selfies and boasting about what they were doing to a friend. They weren't vulnerable when they were giggling in the back of a police van.

Raggamuffin wrote:

4EVER2 wrote:

A.) If past events/crimes/personal histories provide clues about how a twisted thought process can be redirected and the emotional tools provided to learn HOW TO DEAL WITH STRESSFUL SITUATIONS...then YES, our mental health/medical personnel have made many changes for a vast amount of humans!
B.)Going to college and studying: general psychology/family psychology/developmental physciology & psychology/marriage physiology/abnormal - criminal physiology & psychology
C.) finding someone with all of those 'sheep skin' {degrees} to aide us with: seeing the warning signs - getting the help early enough to provide that child with the EMOTIONAL TOOLS to make the right choices - and being a responsible parent/guardian to follow through with the necessary appointments and time.

Despite the 'Hopes & Well Wishes'...we humans rarely ever give birth to a PERFECT HUMAN; there are loads of emotional cripples walking out here among us...and they just need a trigger to start the emotional fuse to explode!

I'm not keen on your tone - leave out the "head banging" eh? If you want to discuss this, don't treat me like I'm "wrong" or stupid.

And I've been told 'not to be so THINNED SKINED'...LMAO

You are neither wrong or stupid...but you phrase questions regarding this specific issue as if there's a Guaranteed Method to make a perfect human being ---

Do you know anyone - ANYONE, walking around upright that has ZERO personality issues?  

Look, it's like we've just now have grants and research to aid humanity with a greater appreciation and understanding of what goes on within our brain. 
They've just recently found the section where our REAL SEXUAL arousal and definition is formed...this is the 21st century
And we've spent so much time/money/man hours on what causes men to need Viagra {EPD erectile penis dysfunction} then we have allocated to the criminal mind and why they are hard wired/predisposed to behave in any given stressful situation.

4EVER2 wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

I'm not keen on your tone - leave out the "head banging" eh? If you want to discuss this, don't treat me like I'm "wrong" or stupid.

And I've been told 'not to be so THINNED SKINED'...LMAO

You are neither wrong or stupid...but you phrase questions regarding this specific issue as if there's a Guaranteed Method to make a perfect human being ---

Do you know anyone - ANYONE, walking around upright that has ZERO personality issues?  

Look, it's like we've just now have grants and research to aid humanity with a greater appreciation and understanding of what goes on within our brain. 
They've just recently found the section where our REAL SEXUAL arousal and definition is formed...this is the 21st century
And we've spent so much time/money/man hours on what causes men to need Viagra {EPD erectile penis dysfunction} then we have allocated to the criminal mind and why they are hard wired/predisposed to behave in any given stressful situation.

I really don't think there's a lot of point trying to teach anyone to make the right choice not to torture someone for hours and batter them to death. It's been said that the older girl had anger issues, but that wasn't anger. It might have been when she struck the first blow, but it wasn't anger which made her carry on, go out for three hours, and then return to finish the job or to check if her victim was dead. It wasn't anger which made her giggle in the police van. Perhaps the only thing which would helped was to lock her in her room so she couldn't go out, especially after she drew a picture of a woman stabbing someone.

Raggs stated >>> I think they already are beyond that tbh. I'd give them as much of a chance as they gave Angela Wrightson.

We all know that they'll get the best of care - at least until they go to an adult prison, and they'll be let out after 15 years - that's if there isn't an appeal and their sentences are reduced on the grounds that they're "vulnerable". They weren't very vulnerable when they restrained Angela and picked up the TV and smashed it on her head. They weren't vulnerable when they were taking selfies and boasting about what they were doing to a friend. They weren't vulnerable when they were giggling in the back of a police van.

I've tried to find some data on what your Juvenile Court System/Housing/Interment conditions are like and what the recidivism ratio is, as well; I'm still looking!
But here is some data from reports here in the USA: > > >

 Black juveniles are held in residential custody in the United States at twice the rate for Hispanics and five times the rates for whites.
On an average day in 1997, approximately 106,000 juvenile offenders under 21 were living in residential placement facilities. Forty percent of the offenders were black and 37.5 percent were white. Eighteen and one-half percent were Hispanic. The vast majority (86.5%) were male.
The juvenile system does work: a 1996 Florida study found that youth transferred to adult prisons had approximately a 30% higher recidivism rate than youth who stayed in the juvenile system. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/juvenile/stats/basic.html

And there is this publication - bulletin that has great reading material and provides factual data for mental health studies & reports > > >

 For noninstitutionalized juveniles, the interventions studied included counseling, skill-oriented programs, and multiple services (combinations of services or treatments that involved several different approaches). For institutionalized juveniles, they included counseling, skill-oriented programs, and community residential programs. Treatments usually lasted 1 to 30 weeks and involved continuous contact or sessions that ranged from once or twice per week to daily, for 1/2 hour to 10 hours per week.
◆ Almost half of the studies used random assignment to experimental conditions; many of the others used some form of matching. Control groups typically received the usual treatment (e.g., regular probation or institutional programs). The recidivism outcome variables that were measured most frequently were police contact or arrest, court contact, or parole violations. https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/181201.pdf

Budget cuts to our Mental Health programs started in earnest during the Ronald Reagan years and the has become the normal way to make federal and state budget reduction...take away from the mental health industry!

Raggs stated >>> I really don't think there's a lot of point trying to teach anyone to make the right choice not to torture someone for hours and batter them to death. It's been said that the older girl had anger issues, but that wasn't anger. It might have been when she struck the first blow, but it wasn't anger which made her carry on, go out for three hours, and then return to finish the job or to check if her victim was dead. It wasn't anger which made her giggle in the police van. Perhaps the only thing which would helped was to lock her in her room so she couldn't go out, especially after she drew a picture of a woman stabbing someone.

True...but you read and hear what we know NOW about these two; not what they lacked during their formative years that allowed them to lack the emotional foundation to avoid this heinous activity. 

And unless your government willfully ignores their required sentencing {limitations for being incarcerated} doesn't it behoove humanity to find a solution/modify/teach them better live skills so they don't become a better killer when released back into society?
That's my point; either we use our incarceration time as a teaching tool for those just like this that are lacking some MORALITY CODE...or we might just as well sentence all murders to DEATH and be done with it!!!

The whole thing should never have been allowed to happen if the existing care system and authorities had been doing their jobs properly in the first place...


Simple thing... such as action being taken about this poor woman buying booze for children and letting them drink round her place and the girls obviously bengal under much stricter control of authority care system etc...

I sometimes think that some people actually reoffend because they want to go back inside, or they don't really care. If they feel different to everyone else in society they might actually feel better in a place where they perceive that everyone else is like them.

I think that might be even more of a problem with juvenile offenders. They might even be admired for what they did by other juvenile offenders, and they might feel that at least they don't have to make much effort - they get all their meals made for them, and they don't have to worry about earning money or worry about the problems of being part of society. Later one, they don't have to hide their identity or worry about people asking them where they went to school, etc.

I also think that it's probably even harder for a juvenile to come to terms with what they did if it's a very serious crime. They're almost being asked to think of themselves as a different person when they grow up to the person they were when they committed the crime. That's not so much the case with adult offenders IMO.

Tommy Monk wrote:The whole thing should never have been allowed to happen if the existing care system and authorities had been doing their jobs properly in the first place...


Simple thing... such as action being taken about this poor woman buying booze for children and letting them drink round her place and the girls obviously bengal under much stricter control of authority care system etc...

There's certainly a case to answer Tommy. Obviously, I'm not going to blame anyone else for what they did, but there does seem to have been a lack of supervision. Perhaps it's impossible to supervise girls of that age unless you literally lock them up.

Angela certainly had contact with social services, so it would be interesting to know if they knew about girls going round to her house for booze. It seems that these two weren't the only ones.

Lord Foul wrote:yah just gotta love the lefties...

no concern for the victim OR potential future victims

no all concern is reserved for the perps as normal...after all the victim is ...well......kinda dead....and doesnt count any more...and the lefties have two more "lame lambs" to snuggle up to and lavish god alone knows how much on....

4EVER2 wrote:

Raggs stated >>> I think they already are beyond that tbh. I'd give them as much of a chance as they gave Angela Wrightson.

We all know that they'll get the best of care - at least until they go to an adult prison, and they'll be let out after 15 years - that's if there isn't an appeal and their sentences are reduced on the grounds that they're "vulnerable". They weren't very vulnerable when they restrained Angela and picked up the TV and smashed it on her head. They weren't vulnerable when they were taking selfies and boasting about what they were doing to a friend. They weren't vulnerable when they were giggling in the back of a police van.

I've tried to find some data on what your Juvenile Court System/Housing/Interment conditions are like and what the recidivism ratio is, as well; I'm still looking!
But here is some data from reports here in the USA: > > >

 Black juveniles are held in residential custody in the United States at twice the rate for Hispanics and five times the rates for whites.
On an average day in 1997, approximately 106,000 juvenile offenders under 21 were living in residential placement facilities. Forty percent of the offenders were black and 37.5 percent were white. Eighteen and one-half percent were Hispanic. The vast majority (86.5%) were male.
The juvenile system does work: a 1996 Florida study found that youth transferred to adult prisons had approximately a 30% higher recidivism rate than youth who stayed in the juvenile system. http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/juvenile/stats/basic.html

And there is this publication - bulletin that has great reading material and provides factual data for mental health studies & reports > > >

 For noninstitutionalized juveniles, the interventions studied included counseling, skill-oriented programs, and multiple services (combinations of services or treatments that involved several different approaches). For institutionalized juveniles, they included counseling, skill-oriented programs, and community residential programs. Treatments usually lasted 1 to 30 weeks and involved continuous contact or sessions that ranged from once or twice per week to daily, for 1/2 hour to 10 hours per week.
◆ Almost half of the studies used random assignment to experimental conditions; many of the others used some form of matching. Control groups typically received the usual treatment (e.g., regular probation or institutional programs). The recidivism outcome variables that were measured most frequently were police contact or arrest, court contact, or parole violations. https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles1/ojjdp/181201.pdf

Budget cuts to our Mental Health programs started in earnest during the Ronald Reagan years and the has become the normal way to make federal and state budget reduction...take away from the mental health industry!

Raggs stated >>> I really don't think there's a lot of point trying to teach anyone to make the right choice not to torture someone for hours and batter them to death. It's been said that the older girl had anger issues, but that wasn't anger. It might have been when she struck the first blow, but it wasn't anger which made her carry on, go out for three hours, and then return to finish the job or to check if her victim was dead. It wasn't anger which made her giggle in the police van. Perhaps the only thing which would helped was to lock her in her room so she couldn't go out, especially after she drew a picture of a woman stabbing someone.

True...but you read and hear what we know NOW about these two; not what they lacked during their formative years that allowed them to lack the emotional foundation to avoid this heinous activity. 

And unless your government willfully ignores their required sentencing {limitations for being incarcerated} doesn't it behoove humanity to find a solution/modify/teach them better live skills so they don't become a better killer when released back into society?
That's my point; either we use our incarceration time as a teaching tool for those just like this that are lacking some MORALITY CODE...or we might just as well sentence all murders to DEATH and be done with it!!!

It's interesting that you confirm the disproportionately higher levels of crime among blacks and Hispanics compared to whites... and the bit about those given 'residential custody' compared to the rest given prison... but we are talking about 2 sadistic and brutal murderers here who would not be considered for any type of 'residential custody' anywhere anyway!!!


The worst offenders would be getting the prison surely?

And then probably more likely to reoffend because they were more evil and dangerous anyway...?


Putting so many light offenders in the softly care system and then probably also being given all the help and encouragement and opportunities available etc and considering they would be the easiest to turn around... but then having such a high level of reoffending would say to me that it was an abject failure!!!

Raggamuffin wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:The whole thing should never have been allowed to happen if the existing care system and authorities had been doing their jobs properly in the first place...


Simple thing... such as action being taken about this poor woman buying booze for children and letting them drink round her place and the girls obviously bengal under much stricter control of authority care system etc...

There's certainly a case to answer Tommy. Obviously, I'm not going to blame anyone else for what they did, but there does seem to have been a lack of supervision. Perhaps it's impossible to supervise girls of that age unless you literally lock them up.

Angela certainly had contact with social services, so it would be interesting to know if they knew about girls going round to her house for booze. It seems that these two weren't the only ones.

It's a complete fuck up all around and these girls obviously slipped through a huge whole in a big net full of other girls and boys like this.
That's why, as we punish we must also help them and rehabilitate them.

Lord Foul wrote:yah just gotta love the lefties...

no concern for the victim OR potential future victims

no all concern is reserved for the perps as normal...after all the victim is ...well......kinda dead....and doesnt count any more...and the lefties have two more "lame lambs" to snuggle up to and lavish god alone knows how much on....

So, how many bankers do you know who are in prison? Where's GWB or Dick Cheney right now?

The bigger the crime, the harder it is to bring the perp in.

eddie wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

There's certainly a case to answer Tommy. Obviously, I'm not going to blame anyone else for what they did, but there does seem to have been a lack of supervision. Perhaps it's impossible to supervise girls of that age unless you literally lock them up.

Angela certainly had contact with social services, so it would be interesting to know if they knew about girls going round to her house for booze. It seems that these two weren't the only ones.

It's a complete fuck up all around and these girls obviously slipped through a huge whole in a big net full of other girls and boys like this.
That's why, as we punish we must also help them and rehabilitate them.

The ones who are merely drinking and staying out all hours, yes. Maybe even the ones indulging in a spot of shoplifting. Those two girls need punishment, and they need to never smile again. Angela will never get the help she needed now, thanks to those two monsters.

"Need to never smile again"???

Might as well kill them then.

eddie wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

There's certainly a case to answer Tommy. Obviously, I'm not going to blame anyone else for what they did, but there does seem to have been a lack of supervision. Perhaps it's impossible to supervise girls of that age unless you literally lock them up.

Angela certainly had contact with social services, so it would be interesting to know if they knew about girls going round to her house for booze. It seems that these two weren't the only ones.

It's a complete fuck up all around and these girls obviously slipped through a huge whole in a big net full of other girls and boys like this.
That's why, as we punish we must also help them and rehabilitate them.

With so many other teenagers about with bit shitty upbringing and under the (very relaxed) scope/radar of the authorities/care system etc... but who DON'T carry out brutal sadistic murders like these two have... Surely this just further confirms these two as being the evil murderers that they are...!?

eddie wrote:"Need to never smile again"???

Might as well kill them then.

They had their fun and happiness when they were beating Angela to death. They don't deserve any more.

Tommy Monk wrote:A.)The whole thing should never have been allowed to happen if the existing care system and authorities had been doing their jobs properly in the first place...


Simple thing... such as action being taken about this poor woman buying booze for children and letting them drink round her place and the girls obviously bengal under much stricter control of authority care system etc...

A.) since I can't speak for how it is in England; I'll just emphatically state that over here...the Social Services &/or Child Protective Service is one of our most over worked under paid and suffers the same annual budget cuts that all of our tax driven humanity bases services do.  Just for my poverty pocket of this state {my county is the 5th largest per square miles} and we have the least amount of per capita income and social services provided for the population!
In the Kansas City metro area - CPS has 1 case worker for every 25 - 50 children and that's on the low cycle periods - not the peak cycle periods.  Just imagine what it's like for NewYork City - Los Angeles, CA -  Dallas, Tx - Miami, FL

Talk about an over worked/under paid/under staffed agency; and you wonder how/why things like this and children with those warning signs...just fall through the cracks??? 

I'm not denying they're evil murderers, I'm saying that there's a possibility that they were not "born evil"

There's not much more to say without me repeating myself and whilst I know I have a lovely speaking voice, I'm beginning to bore myself now

I mean - even Thompson and Venables didn't laugh and giggle after they'd killed Jamie, and Venables did at least say he was sorry.

eddie wrote:I'm not denying they're evil murderers, I'm saying that there's a possibility that they were not "born evil"

There's not much more to say without me repeating myself and whilst I know I have a lovely speaking voice, I'm beginning to bore myself now

Do you have any concept at all of how Angela Wrightson suffered at the hands at these two? Can you imagine what it was like for her? To be beaten and terrorised for hours in her own home - by two girls who she thought were her friends?

eddie wrote:"Need to never smile again"???

Might as well kill them then.

They were given 'life' sentences... which is the leftie alternative to the previous 'death' sentence that they would have been given if under the system we used to have...



And that many people think we should still have!


Or at least life meaning LIFE!!! Never to be released!!!

The oldest girl said she didn't realise that people died from being beaten, stamped on, smashed over the head, and punched. Oh well, that's OK then isn't it? She thought she'd just make Angela suffer for hours without actually killing her. Horrible bitch.

And where did they get drugs from? Apparently, they were taking codeine, Valium, and other stuff - prescription stuff, or stuff they wouldn't be able to buy themselves in a shop.

Tommy stated >>>
a.) It's interesting that you confirm the disproportionately higher levels of crime among blacks and Hispanics compared to whites... and the bit about those given 'residential custody' compared to the rest given prison... but we are talking about 2 sadistic and brutal murderers here who would not be considered for any type of 'residential custody' anywhere anyway!!!

b.)The worst offenders would be getting the prison surely?

c.)And then probably more likely to reoffend because they were more evil and dangerous anyway...?

d.)Putting so many light offenders in the softly care system and then probably also being given all the help and encouragement and opportunities available etc and considering they would be the easiest to turn around... but then having such a high level of reoffending would say to me that it was an abject failure!!!

A.) not my opinion - just provided a link & data for discussion but that link does reflect what has been happening since POTUS Nixon declared the 'War On Drugs'...
A.a) Residential Custody vs Juvenile Incarceration...well now that's where the RACE issue rears it's ugly statistical head --- white collar youth are far more apt to get lighter sentences/reduced criminal records/wavered off for probation/placed under house arrest/given a light slap on the hands and community service time ---
WHY, because their families help appoint the judge/magistrate/knows some one that knows some one and that's how it works if you are WHITE IN AMERICA.

B.) Not hardly {see A.a.} and if you're a child of a wealthy entertainer/pro sports jock it won't matter what shade your skin tone is --- you'll get a waver and wrist slap.  See the recent cases of 'Affluent Adjudication'; where the rich kid killed 4 pedestrians while heavily DUI'd

C.) plausible...but if you're raised in piss poor housing/treated like you don't belong/like you don't matter/and you see the 'whities' getting treated like a revolving door judicial system --- it does create and instill a real serious 'GIVE A RATS ASS' opinion about society as a whole.  Hopeless/Helpless/Apathetic = a child growing up be made to feel better when they are being Destructive then Constructive.

D.) data on recidivism is sketching at best; our youth have become more transient and with the cycle of our weather seasons they flow with the changes of our seasons.
One absolute - that I've learned while working with young people; if they don't learn a skill - have a job to be responsible for - they never develop a sense of worth and have nothing to gain upon release but to go practice all of the BAD CRIMINAL SKILLS that they've picked up while incarcerated.

eddie wrote:I'm not denying they're evil murderers, I'm saying that there's a possibility that they were not "born evil"

There's not much more to say without me repeating myself and whilst I know I have a lovely speaking voice, I'm beginning to bore myself now

I'm not saying if its possible either way... doesn't matter really...

I don't believe anyone is born evil.
Had these girls had a decent home life I doubt they would have gone on to kill anyone.
Child killers are very rare (and 13 and 14 year olds are children) the children that have killed in recent times have all been (as far as I know) from disturbed backgrounds.

The parents have to take some of the blame.

No matter how heinous the crime they have commited still need all the help they can get.

4EVER2 wrote:

Tommy stated >>>
a.) It's interesting that you confirm the disproportionately higher levels of crime among blacks and Hispanics compared to whites... and the bit about those given 'residential custody' compared to the rest given prison... but we are talking about 2 sadistic and brutal murderers here who would not be considered for any type of 'residential custody' anywhere anyway!!!

b.)The worst offenders would be getting the prison surely?

c.)And then probably more likely to reoffend because they were more evil and dangerous anyway...?

d.)Putting so many light offenders in the softly care system and then probably also being given all the help and encouragement and opportunities available etc and considering they would be the easiest to turn around... but then having such a high level of reoffending would say to me that it was an abject failure!!!

A.) not my opinion - just provided a link & data for discussion but that link does reflect what has been happening since POTUS Nixon declared the 'War On Drugs'...
A.a) Residential Custody vs Juvenile Incarceration...well now that's where the RACE issue rears it's ugly statistical head --- white collar youth are far more apt to get lighter sentences/reduced criminal records/wavered off for probation/placed under house arrest/given a light slap on the hands and community service time ---
WHY, because their families help appoint the judge/magistrate/knows some one that knows some one and that's how it works if you are WHITE IN AMERICA.

B.) Not hardly {see A.a.} and if you're a child of a wealthy entertainer/pro sports jock it won't matter what shade your skin tone is --- you'll get a waver and wrist slap.  See the recent cases of 'Affluent Adjudication'; where the rich kid killed 4 pedestrians while heavily DUI'd

C.) plausible...but if you're raised in piss poor housing/treated like you don't belong/like you don't matter/and you see the 'whities' getting treated like a revolving door judicial system --- it does create and instill a real serious 'GIVE A RATS ASS' opinion about society as a whole.  Hopeless/Helpless/Apathetic = a child growing up be made to feel better when they are being Destructive then Constructive.

D.) data on recidivism is sketching at best; our youth have become more transient and with the cycle of our weather seasons they flow with the changes of our seasons.
One absolute - that I've learned while working with young people; if they don't learn a skill - have a job to be responsible for - they never develop a sense of worth and have nothing to gain upon release but to go practice all of the BAD CRIMINAL SKILLS that they've picked up while incarcerated.

The high crime rates you showed are hardly 'opinion' now are they...!?


And the rest is irrelevant waffle as far as the case in question is concerned...


But I don't think any 2 murderers like these two girls would be given anything other than proper prison custody anywhere... regardless of race...