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The Panama Papers: how the world’s rich and famous hide their money offshore Guardian analysis of leaked papers will show how influential people including heads of government have exploited tax havens

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The Panama Papers: how the world’s rich and famous hide their money offshore Guardian analysis of leaked papers will show how influential people including heads of government have exploited tax havens - Page 3 Empty The Panama Papers: how the world’s rich and famous hide their money offshore Guardian analysis of leaked papers will show how influential people including heads of government have exploited tax havens

Post by Guest Mon Apr 04, 2016 12:06 pm

First topic message reminder :

The hidden wealth of some of the world’s most prominent leaders, politicians and celebrities has been revealed by an unprecedented leak of millions of documents that show the myriad ways in which the rich can exploit secretive offshore tax regimes.

The Guardian, working with global partners, will set out details from the first tranche of what are being called “the Panama Papers”. Journalists from more than 80 countries have been reviewing 11.5m files leaked from the database of Mossack Fonseca, the world’s fourth biggest offshore law firm.

The records were obtained from an anonymous source by the German newspaper Süddeutsche Zeitung and shared by the International Consortium of Investigative Journalists with the Guardian and the BBC.
Though there is nothing unlawful about using offshore companies, the files raise fundamental questions about the ethics of such tax havens – and the revelations are likely to provoke urgent calls for reforms of a system that critics say is arcane and open to abuse.
The Panama Papers reveal:

  • Twelve national leaders are among 143 politicians, their families and close associates from around the world known to have been using offshore tax havens.
  • A $2bn trail leads all the way to Vladimir Putin. The Russian president’s best friend – a cellist called Sergei Roldugin - is at the centre of a scheme in which money from Russian state banks is hidden offshore. Some of it ends up in a ski resort where in 2013 Putin’s daughter Katerina got married.
  • Among national leaders with offshore wealth are Nawaz Sharif, Pakistan’s prime minister; Ayad Allawi, ex-interim prime minister and former vice-president of Iraq; Petro Poroshenko, president of Ukraine; Alaa Mubarak, son of Egypt’s former president; and the prime minister of Iceland, Sigmundur Davíð Gunnlaugsson.
  • In the UK, six members of the House of Lords, three former Conservative MPs and dozens of donors to British political parties have had offshore assets.
  • The families of at least eight current and former members of China’s supreme ruling body, the politburo, have been found to have hidden wealth offshore.
  • Twenty-three individuals who have had sanctions imposed on them for supporting the regimes in North Korea, Zimbabwe, Russia, Iran and Syria have been clients of Mossack Fonseca. Their companies were harboured by the Seychelles, the British Virgin Islands, Panama and other jurisdictions.
  • A key member of Fifa’s powerful ethics committee, which is supposed to be spearheading reform at world football’s scandal-hit governing body, acted as a lawyer for individuals and companies recently charged with bribery and corruption.
  • One leaked memorandum from a partner of Mossack Fonseca said: “Ninety-five per cent of our work coincidentally consists in selling vehicles to avoid taxes.”


The company has flatly denied any wrongdoing. It says it has acted beyond reproach for 40 years and that it has had robust due diligence procedures.
The document leak comes from the records of the firm, which was founded in 1977. The information is near live, with the most recent records dating from December 2015.
Three hundred and 70 reporters from 100 media organisations have spent a year analysing and verifying the documents.
The British prime minister, David Cameron, has promised to “sweep away” tax secrecy – but little has been done. He is planning a summit of world leaders next month, which will focus on the conduct of tax havens.
The prime minister set out his line in 2011 when he said: “We need to shine a spotlight on who owns what and where the money is really flowing.”

Masses more at http://www.theguardian.com/news/2016/apr/03/the-panama-papers-how-the-worlds-rich-and-famous-hide-their-money-offshore

I doubt very much Cameron will do the above as these papers show his father is one of them.



France’s president, François Hollande, has become possibly the first world leader so far to welcome the leak. According to AFP he thanked the “whistleblowers” who brought the files to light, adding: “All the information revealed will lead to investigations brought by the tax authorities and to legal proceedings.”


Makes WikiLeaks look like a comic book

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:18 am

As much as I am central right, and believe people have a right to what they earn, they also do not have a right to avoid paying tax
Its ethically wrong and is the worst form of deceit, especially if they own companies employing people where they expect honesty from their employees.
I do not believe they should be taxed to the extreme as some believe they should because that is just plain bitterness. The most the rich should pay is 60% tax if they earn over 250K

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:22 am

Tough Rags.  Close the loopholes, stop off-shore accounts and trusts that let them get away with it and stick them in jail if they don't pay their tax.  Society only works when people pay their tax.  Those at the bottom already pay a higher percentage of their earnings in tax because of VAT etc (can't be bothered to look up the link but it's fact).   That way everyone could have a decent life.

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Post by Raggamuffin Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:24 am

sassy wrote:Tough Rags.  Close the loopholes, stop off-shore accounts and trusts that let them get away with it and stick them in jail if they don't pay their tax.  Society only works when people pay their tax.  Those at the bottom already pay a higher percentage of their earnings in tax because of VAT etc (can't be bothered to look up the link but it's fact).   That way everyone could have a decent life.

They won't be able to. People who are that rich will simply move their business elsewhere. If you want to drive the innovators and the people who give others jobs out of the country, that's up to you, but who is going to provide the money then? All the people on minimum wages?

Re VAT, it stands to reason that those with more money probably buy more goods, so they pay more in real terms than those who don't.
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Post by Guest Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:28 am

That's what they always say and it doesn't happen.  If they closed all the loopholes all over the world, they wouldn't be able to anyway.  And you know who is stopping that - this Government.  That is what the EU was trying to do, UK veto'd it and now it turns out Cameron wrote a letter begging them to exempt offshore trusts.  I wonder why.


PS, who provides all the money now?  Not the rich who are avoiding paying their taxes, the majority of tax revenue comes from the lower half.

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Post by Raggamuffin Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:31 am

sassy wrote:That's what they always say and it doesn't happen.  If they closed all the loopholes all over the world, they wouldn't be able to anyway.  And you know who is stopping that - this Government.  That is what the EU was trying to do, UK veto'd it and now it turns out Cameron wrote a letter begging them to exempt offshore trusts.  I wonder why.

They're not going to do it all over the world though. There are incentives for tax havens.

As I said, if they didn't tax people at such a high rate, more might not want to send their money elsewhere. Someone who is being paid a lot of money presumably think they earn it, and so do the people who are paying them loads of money. I would do something about those huge bonuses though - they could be taxed at a high rate.
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Post by Guest Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:33 am

As I said before, wouldn't matter how low their rate of tax was, they think they are above it all and have the right not to pay tax, and all the time we allow the loopholes, they won't.

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Post by Raggamuffin Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:36 am

sassy wrote:As I said before, wouldn't matter how low their rate of tax was, they think they are above it all and have the right not to pay tax, and all the time we allow the loopholes, they won't.

I know you think that, but I think that the percentage might matter to them.
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Post by Guest Thu Apr 07, 2016 11:59 am

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
nicko wrote:Untill it's proven that Cameron is guilty you should not pre-judge.

Lol! Really? Does the not prejudging only apply to white people then?

Well in this country there is such a thing as innocent until proven guilty.

Its a secular country, not an Islamic one, try to remember that

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:06 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Didge wrote:

Well in this country there is such a thing as innocent until proven guilty.

Its a secular country, not an Islamic one, try to remember that

Oh dear! Have I wound you up, again?

Try to remain calm and don't disrupt the forum.

The Panama Papers: how the world’s rich and famous hide their money offshore Guardian analysis of leaked papers will show how influential people including heads of government have exploited tax havens - Page 3 3489511464

No just educating an ignorant little boy

Remember this is a secular country

Innocent until proven guilt

Its not the Caliphate, you masturbate over daily for The Panama Papers: how the world’s rich and famous hide their money offshore Guardian analysis of leaked papers will show how influential people including heads of government have exploited tax havens - Page 3 4214183177

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:08 pm

David Cameron personally intervened to prevent tax crackdown on offshore trusts
PM successfully argued in 2013 for trusts to be treated differently to companies in anti-money laundering rules

David Cameron personally intervened to prevent EU transparency rules affecting offshore tax trusts despite warnings it could create a loophole for tax dodgers, it has emerged.

The Prime Minister sent a letter that successfully argued for trusts to be treated differently to companies in anti-money laundering rules.

Mr Cameron wrote to the then-European Council president Herman van Rompuy, claiming that it was "clearly important we recognise the important differences between companies and trusts".


http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/david-cameron-intervened-stop-tax-crackdown-offshore-trusts-panama-papers-eu-a6972311.html




And he thinks we don't know why.

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:10 pm

Ah the other islamist does not understand secularism either

He is not even implicated in any tax fraud and yet they are desperate to make other s believe so

Same tactics she uses on Israel, attempts to dehumanize people

Innocent until proven guilty

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Post by Raggamuffin Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:10 pm

Irn Bru wrote:Jimmy Carr tax arrangements 'morally wrong', says David Cameron.

Oh deary me Laughing

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/jun/20/jimmy-carr-tax-david-cameron

In turn, Carr has allegedly criticised bankers for not paying tax, and yet he allegedly practises tax avoidance himself. The Panama Papers: how the world’s rich and famous hide their money offshore Guardian analysis of leaked papers will show how influential people including heads of government have exploited tax havens - Page 3 2190311264
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Post by Raggamuffin Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:11 pm

Why is religion being dragged into this thread? FFS, can't it be kept out for once?
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Post by Guest Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:11 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:Jimmy Carr tax arrangements 'morally wrong', says David Cameron.

Oh deary me Laughing

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2012/jun/20/jimmy-carr-tax-david-cameron

In turn, Carr has allegedly criticised bankers for not paying tax, and yet he allegedly practises tax avoidance himself. The Panama Papers: how the world’s rich and famous hide their money offshore Guardian analysis of leaked papers will show how influential people including heads of government have exploited tax havens - Page 3 2190311264


They are all in it, up to their necks and it's about time they were held to account.

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:12 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Why is religion being dragged into this thread? FFS, can't it be kept out for once?


You know why, I know why, we all know why.  Didge.

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Post by Raggamuffin Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:12 pm

sassy wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Why is religion being dragged into this thread? FFS, can't it be kept out for once?


You know why, I know why, we all know why.  Didge.

It's just all over the forum, and it's very tiresome.
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Post by Guest Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:13 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Didge wrote:

The Panama Papers: how the world’s rich and famous hide their money offshore Guardian analysis of leaked papers will show how influential people including heads of government have exploited tax havens - Page 3 3489511464

No just educating an ignorant little boy

Remember this is a secular country

Innocent until proven guilt

Its not the Caliphate, you masturbate over daily for   The Panama Papers: how the world’s rich and famous hide their money offshore Guardian analysis of leaked papers will show how influential people including heads of government have exploited tax havens - Page 3 4214183177

Lol! Tell me again how didn't wind you up.

Sorry in English please zack ha ha

lol!

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Post by Raggamuffin Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:15 pm

sassy wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

In turn, Carr has allegedly criticised bankers for not paying tax, and yet he allegedly practises tax avoidance himself. The Panama Papers: how the world’s rich and famous hide their money offshore Guardian analysis of leaked papers will show how influential people including heads of government have exploited tax havens - Page 3 2190311264


They are all in it, up to their necks and it's about time they were held to account.

I'm going to look at Wiki re tax avoidance versus tax evasion. Laughing
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Post by Guest Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:16 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Didge wrote:

Sorry in English please zack ha ha

lol!

You're really wound up today. You'll probably crack today and have another hissy fit. Good entertainment.

I love it, you are my little puppet Zack, as seen I am always pulling your strings to jump in and reply

Still waiting for the sale figures you screwed up on lol

Razz

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:16 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
sassy wrote:


They are all in it, up to their necks and it's about time they were held to account.

I'm going to look at Wiki re tax avoidance versus tax evasion.  Laughing


I know the difference, they should both be stopped, tax avoidance is there because of loopholes, stop the loopholes and they wouldn't be able to do it.

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Post by Raggamuffin Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:17 pm

sassy wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I'm going to look at Wiki re tax avoidance versus tax evasion.  Laughing


I know the difference, they should both be stopped, tax avoidance is there because of loopholes, stop the loopholes and they wouldn't be able to do it.

I also know the difference, I just don't know the details re how people avoid tax. I'll look at the loopholes as well.
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Post by Raggamuffin Thu Apr 07, 2016 12:28 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I also know the difference, I just don't know the details re how people avoid tax. I'll look at the loopholes as well.

http://globaldocuments.morningstar.com/documentlibrary/Document/ec3dcb9ffb02c630042fa1ac2c7d56de.msdoc/original

Page 27

Thank you Zack. I confess I know very little about the machinations of tax avoidance. I'm just looking at the Starbucks thing.
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Post by Raggamuffin Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:06 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Thank you Zack. I confess I know very little about the machinations of tax avoidance. I'm just looking at the Starbucks thing.

Google "Starbucks transfer pricing"

http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/intmanual/intm410000.htm

Thank you again Zack. Laughing
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Post by Raggamuffin Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:10 pm

How about companies being legally obliged to state publically how they deal with their tax issues? I mean in a simple way of course so people understand it. Laughing

Then if they're practising tax avoidance, people can vote with their feet and not add to their profits if they feel it's wrong.
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Post by Lurker Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:17 pm

https://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/why-you-should-care-about-panama-papers-mossack-fonseca

If you live in one of the 200 countries and territories that Mossack Fonseca's clients call home—and, given the fact you're reading this article, you probably do—the story of the Panama Papers is your story. The money the law firm helps to hide should be used to pay for your schools, your highways, your hospitals. The criminals it works with run the most violent illegal organizations your country has ever seen. The politicians who have taken and made bribes, dodged taxes, and amassed fortunes of unimaginable scale are your politicians.
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Post by Guest Thu Apr 07, 2016 1:21 pm

Lurker wrote:https://www.vice.com/en_ca/read/why-you-should-care-about-panama-papers-mossack-fonseca

If you live in one of the 200 countries and territories that Mossack Fonseca's clients call home—and, given the fact you're reading this article, you probably do—the story of the Panama Papers is your story. The money the law firm helps to hide should be used to pay for your schools, your highways, your hospitals. The criminals it works with run the most violent illegal organizations your country has ever seen. The politicians who have taken and made bribes, dodged taxes, and amassed fortunes of unimaginable scale are your politicians.


Absolutely Lurker, the money involved has even been used to fund N.Korea's nucleur programme.

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 07, 2016 2:45 pm

I'd posted early on about some of the 'TAXES' that we get assessed here in America and how there are serious Property Tax in arrears {billions} of back-logged violators just within my state; do you owe property tax for the land & homes that you own in England?

Here; everyone is 'SUPPOSED' to be taxed according to the assessed structure value of our homes - the lots or acreage that it sits on and any other out buildings as well. But - BUT...if you are wealthy, and you know someone {political elected official} then the amount owing is ignored and allowed to set there on our property tax rolls for a long assed time. 

Former Senator Bob Dole had many - many of his fair haired cronies owing back property taxes within the county that elected him into a senate seat and the Division of Taxation for the State of KS was told to 'BACK OFF' and stop harassing those people for their lack of payment...so if the upper echelon don't pay what they owe how is this state supposed to meet their budget obligations that are established via those revenue generating accounts receivable obligated funds??? 
It just doesn't work and my state is in horrid - horrible financial mess!

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:00 pm

I think your property tax is like our Community Charge, although our Comminity Charge goes to the Councils to run local services, and believe me, if you don't pay it you are taken to court pretty damn quick.

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:18 pm

sassy wrote:I think your property tax is like our Community Charge, although our Comminity Charge goes to the Councils to run local services, and believe me, if you don't pay it you are taken to court pretty damn quick.

Well, our local up through the county then upward to the state...makes every attempt to COLLECT what is owed to the state and the in arrears {dead beats} are published each and every year with their name {land owner}, address and the total taxes still owed. 

But - as with this county {poverty pocket of KS} the same names show up each and every year for delinquent/unpaid property taxes and the interest & fines are minimal... Evil or Very Mad 
It was so rampart, that an audit was done in 1990 and the longevity of some of the state wide property taxes in arrears - went back well over 10+ years...to the same names on those tax rolls The Panama Papers: how the world’s rich and famous hide their money offshore Guardian analysis of leaked papers will show how influential people including heads of government have exploited tax havens - Page 3 2113235493   So...shock & horror set in and a new 'LAW' was passed and those truant landowners and historical arrears were told to PAY UP OR GO TO JAIL~~~ Ya, well that didn't scare those uber wealthy...they just continued to ignore the threats.  The Panama Papers: how the world’s rich and famous hide their money offshore Guardian analysis of leaked papers will show how influential people including heads of government have exploited tax havens - Page 3 2396444674

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 07, 2016 3:21 pm

That's dreadful!  Here, they would have been taken to court and sent to prison.

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:06 pm

sassy wrote:That's dreadful!  Here, they would have been taken to court and sent to prison.


Well, money talks and BS walks and a 'LAW' is only as good as the enforcement end of that dirty detail...and our Head of the State Tax Department is an 'APPOINTED' position Rolling Eyes

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:08 pm

So they get away with more and more.  Must make you so damn angry!

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:14 pm

sassy wrote:So they get away with more and more.  Must make you so damn angry!


INDEED...but with my flagging energy level, I do try to pick my battles and hope that the younger generation are paying attention to the pond scum that are aiding our states financial fiasco!  But I'm not holding my breath either Razz

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Post by Original Quill Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:19 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

But you are referring an income based tax.  If someone earns a lower amount, he or she is expected to pay proportionately less and is paying the appropriate amount (according to the formula) for the amenities used.  

If you have a problem with the tax schedules, see a tax accountant.  S/he can explain to you the methodology by which community and infrastructure costs are interpreted into taxes.

Yes, but the amenities cost the same for a person who doesn't pay tax, or very little tax, so they're not actually paying for what they use are they? I'm not saying they should pay more, although I think it's good for people to pay a little bit even if they're on low pay, I'm just saying that all this bleating about rich people not paying enough is a bit hypocritical. People want them to pay over the odds for the amenities that they use.

What you don't realize is that it is all relative.  You are assuming that "costs" are set in concrete, when often they depend upon labor, materials and, yes, even taxes.  What is paid is what is used, as calculated in proportion to income.  If you are wealthy, you have greater investments, you have more homes, you use roads, airports, sea ports, water, electricity, police protection, fire protection, securities protection, etc.,  and your investments use those roads, airports and sea ports, water, electricity, police protection, fire protection, securities protection, much more than the poor person.  Hence the philosophy of proportional equality as applied to taxation...or simply put, the graduated income tax.

If you think some element of society is underpaying taxes, your argument is with the way that taxes are computed, not with the appropriateness of proportional-use-to-tax.  That's why I say see a tax accountant...you are taking exception with the calculation, not the philosophy.

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Post by Raggamuffin Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:29 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Yes, but the amenities cost the same for a person who doesn't pay tax, or very little tax, so they're not actually paying for what they use are they? I'm not saying they should pay more, although I think it's good for people to pay a little bit even if they're on low pay, I'm just saying that all this bleating about rich people not paying enough is a bit hypocritical. People want them to pay over the odds for the amenities that they use.

What you don't realize is that it is all relative.  You are assuming that "costs" are set in concrete, when often they depend upon labor, materials and, yes, even taxes.  What is paid is what is used, as calculated in proportion to income.  If you are wealthy, you have greater investments, you have more homes, you use roads, airports, sea ports, water, electricity, police protection, fire protection, securities protection, etc.,  and your investments use those roads, airports and sea ports, water, electricity, police protection, fire protection, securities protection, much more than the poor person.  Hence the philosophy of proportional equality as applied to taxation...or simply put, the graduated income tax.

If you think some element of society is underpaying taxes, your argument is with the way that taxes are computed, not with the appropriateness of proportional-use-to-tax.  That's why I say see a tax accountant...you are taking exception with the calculation, not the philosophy.

You said all that before, but the rich pay for all those things either via private payments or via council tax, or they pay via tax - they pay more in tax in real terms. As I said, a person on low pay still uses those things but doesn't pay much for them, or doesn't pay anything at all. As I've said several times, I think a flat rate of 20% after the personal allowance would be fairer. I don't see why earning more means you should hand over a higher percentage.
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Post by Guest Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:33 pm

So, you all pay 20%, then when it comes to buying things that you have to, the 17% VAT on a poor mans pay is a huge amount, for the rich it's literally nothing.  Then TV licence, water, electric, gas, rates, transport costs, housing etc are all going to be a huge proportion for the poor, nothing for the rich.  In proportion, the poor still pay more tax in indirect taxation than the rich do.

And how do the rich get rich?   By not paying their taxes and using the poor to work for them for peanuts.

If the rich paid their taxes they would still be rich, and we would have the money for hospitals, care homes, schools, decent road, flood prevention and all the rest of it and no national debt.

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Post by Raggamuffin Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:39 pm

sassy wrote:So, you all pay 20%, then when it comes to buying things that you have to, the 17% VAT on a poor mans pay is a huge amount, for the rich it's literally nothing.  Then TV licence, water, electric, gas, rates, transport costs, housing etc are all going to be a huge proportion for the poor, nothing for the rich.  In proportion, the poor still pay more tax in indirect taxation than the rich do.

I thought someone said that rich people use more water, electricity, etc, so they would be paying more. I think VAT is too high btw - it seems daft to me to have to pay tax on something you actually pay for.

We don't generally pay people on the basis of their needs in the UK, we pay them on the basis of their worth to a company. It has to be assumed that they do actually earn the money, unless they're paid from the public purse of course, in which case they need to prove they're worth their pay.
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Post by Guest Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:43 pm

The very richest aren't rich because they work, they are rich because they inherited it and their accountantss invest it in offshore companies so that they don't pay tax.

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Post by Raggamuffin Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:45 pm

sassy wrote:The very richest aren't rich because they work, they are rich because they inherited it and their accountantss invest it in offshore companies so that they don't pay tax.

I'm talking about the tax situation is it, assuming that people do pay tax on their earnings. I think that 20% is fair for everyone. Those on high pay will pay much more anyway even if they pay 20% on all their earnings.
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Post by Guest Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:47 pm

Well, we will have to agree to differ, because 20% from someone who earns £15,000 is a huge amount to them, 20% to someone who gets £250,000 is a drop in the ocean.  And everyone needs the facilities provided by the state, including the police so that they don't get robbed, army so they are defended, doctors etc etc.

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Post by Guest Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:52 pm

sassy wrote:Well, we will have to agree to differ, because 20% from someone who earns £15,000 is a huge amount to them, 20% to someone who gets £250,000 is a drop in the ocean.  And everyone needs the facilities provided by the state, including the police so that they don't get robbed, army so they are defended, doctors etc etc.


And often what we locally run into around here is: 'well, the wealthy have more money so they'll spend more money and that = more sales tax revenue for all of us right here!'


NO - NO - NOOOOO, those wealthy people don't shop LOCALLY, they can afford the time and expense to travel outside of their local area and purchase their durable goods --- they DO NOT SHOP AT THE LOCAL STORES; not like the rest of us that haven't the option to drive to those other durable good locations 50 miles away! 
Try finding a local grocery story out here in RURAL AMERICA confused

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Post by Raggamuffin Thu Apr 07, 2016 4:57 pm

sassy wrote:Well, we will have to agree to differ, because 20% from someone who earns £15,000 is a huge amount to them, 20% to someone who gets £250,000 is a drop in the ocean.  And everyone needs the facilities provided by the state, including the police so that they don't get robbed, army so they are defended, doctors etc etc.

A person who earns £15,000 would pay tax of £800 a year, and person who earns £250,000 would pay £47,800. If we're talking about percentages, the first person pays 5.3% of their total salary, and the second pays just over 19% of their total salary, so the second one is paying more as a percentage.
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Post by Original Quill Thu Apr 07, 2016 7:39 pm

We are getting into two different arguments, or facets of the proportional argument: 1) the equity argument, that a poorer person pays a lot dearer portion of their income/worth to sustain himself; and 2) the utility argument, that a wealthier person uses more of society’s benefits, and thus should pay more.  I mentioned that there were two arguments in my first post.  The former plays upon the bottom of the scale, in that it asks why the poorer person must pay a dearer portion of his new worth for, say, that bushel of wheat; the latter plays upon the top of the scale, in that it asks won’t the person who is worth more, use more (of societal benefits)?

Whether we talk about net equity or net use, we are still talking about proportion.  Neither option supports ignoring proportional differences.  That’s why I say, Raggs, that once you accept the categorical argument, you are left arguing over degrees (hence my reference to accountants).  I think you are trying to create a reciprocal argument by walking back the degrees, when in fact you have already accepted the notion that they are differences of degrees.

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