Why will no one admit the way some western Muslims raise their children is fomenting terror?

Thanks to Horatio for finding it :-)


Why will no one admit the way some western Muslims raise their children is fomenting terror?
By YASMIN ALIBHAI-BROWN

Brutality begins at home. In looking for the reasons behind Tuesday’s Belgian atrocities, we have to face the fact that the ultimate cause lies in the upbringing of the killers.
And when I say ‘we’ must face it, I am talking about Muslim communities across Europe and here in Britain. It is our responsibility and we must deal with it.
I do not discount the effects of casual racism against Muslims, of anger over the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and of the spread of Islamic extremism from Saudi Arabia.
All of these things are important, but just as vital is the way that Muslim families raise their children. For too long, no one has dared to say a word on this subject, but we can no longer ignore it.

Brutality begins at home. In looking for the reasons behind Tuesday’s Belgian atrocities, we have to face the fact that the ultimate cause lies in the upbringing of the killers.
And when I say ‘we’ must face it, I am talking about Muslim communities across Europe and here in Britain. It is our responsibility and we must deal with it.
I do not discount the effects of casual racism against Muslims, of anger over the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, and of the spread of Islamic extremism from Saudi Arabia.
All of these things are important, but just as vital is the way that Muslim families raise their children. For too long, no one has dared to say a word on this subject, but we can no longer ignore it.
Belgian bomber Ibrahim El Bakraoui (centre) and explosives expert Najim Laachraou (left), both wearing black gloves to hide their suicide bomb triggers, killed 14 at Brussels airport. Their accomplice - the 'Man in White' - (right) is Europe's most wanted man after walking out of the airport after leaving a bomb that never went off
Belgian bomber Ibrahim El Bakraoui (centre) and explosives expert Najim Laachraou (left), both wearing black gloves to hide their suicide bomb triggers, killed 14 at Brussels airport. Their accomplice - the 'Man in White' - (right) is Europe's most wanted man after walking out of the airport after leaving a bomb that never went off
When mass killings are committed by white people, such as the Columbine school massacre in the U.S. in 1999 or the shootings in Norway by the deranged racial supremacist Anders Breivik in 2011, we are quick to look for the psychological roots — what happened in the killers’ childhoods to make them believe indiscriminate slaughter was the answer?
When Islamist terrorist attacks happen, we don’t do this. Instead, we look for such external causes as preachers of hate. And I believe that we have been looking in the wrong direction.
Too many Muslim families in Britain and the rest of Europe isolate themselves from the out- side world. They deliberately turn their backs on it.
Forbidden
This inwardness means that Muslim boys and girls are denied many privileges that other young people take for granted. They are growing up unfree in the free world.
At school and on TV, they see one kind of life. Yet at home, they experience another one entirely.
Inevitably they are drawn to both and end up feeling that they belong to neither. They are lost between these two worlds.

As a university lecturer, I hear this complaint from many Muslim students. And as a journalist, I receive countless letters every year from young people around the country who are in the same miserable dilemma, bitterly sad letters expressing a deep unhappiness which can provoke a kind of vengefulness against the wider world.

It is common to hear, for example, that when lectures and tutorials are over, Muslim students are forbidden by their families to fraternise with their peers. They can’t have a coffee in the canteen, much less go to the pub or a nightclub. Instead, they must go straight back to their parents.

If they do make friends, they are not allowed to bring them home. Their families refuse to permit any trace of the broader British community to cross their threshold: it has to be left on the doorstep.
So friends must be kept secret, which is often impossible when privacy in the family is banned. I know students who are not allowed even to talk on the phone at home without others listening.
One 18-year-old who told his family of his ambition to become an artist described his father’s reaction to me: ‘He slapped me across the face. Then he sent me away. He does not want to talk to me now.’
This cultural inwardness has become worse in recent years, in part thanks to the permissive nature of Western society.
Every parent worries about drugs and sexual freedom as their children get older, but for strict Muslim families here, in Belgium and elsewhere, this can become a sort of phobia.
Instead of addressing the issues, as other parents do, they pull up the drawbridge.
This attitude is made worse by the influence of Wahhabi fundamentalism emanating from the hardline clerics of Saudi Arabia and spreading through the internet — brainwashing entire communities into deeply regressive views about liberal democracies.
When large-scale Muslim immigration arrived in the UK during the Sixties and Seventies, parents were eager for the next generation to obtain a broad education and a good job, by embracing everything their new country had to offer. That is no longer the template.
Muslim parents today, consumed by anxieties and with their heads full of rhetoric from firebrand preachers, want to lock up their children and deny them their basic freedoms.
That in turn makes the racism they sometimes face from others in society even worse: behave like an outsider and you will be treated like one.
The result is deep confusion among young Muslims. Their parents tell them they are not allowed to become genuinely British or French or Belgian.
Violent
Classmates and strangers rub the message in further from a different perspective. So they end up asking themselves where they belong and who is really on their side.
Then along come Islamic State radicalisers on the quiet at the mosque or via the internet, claiming to become a surrogate family, offering certainty and salvation, and, for more violent young men, a new kind of masculine identity.
Why else would the brothers Ibrahim and Khalid el- Bakraoui, who blew themselves up in the Brussels airport and Metro this week, feel life was not worth living and that their best course of action was to kill themselves and take as many innocent lives with them as they could?

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3507086/Why-no-one-admit-way-western-Muslims-raise-children-fomenting-terror.html#ixzz43pEByzMw
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Much more in the article

More bullshit from Yasmin "I need an Alibhai" Brown.

Haha nice play on words there.

Zack, interested in your opnion here....?!

eddie wrote:Haha nice play on words there.

Zack, interested in your opnion here....?!

This isn't necessarily a parental issue, with respect to terrorism or even joining ISIS.

This is a cult/gang issue (as you'll see in my next thread)

Many (not just Muslims) are raised in such families as she describes but don't turn to gangs, murder and terror.

Then you have those raised in families who have educated their children to be doctors, lawyers,etc and then turn to terror.

As usual, she's pandering to the elite and the ignorant. What a sanctimonious, pretentious person she is.

lol now that is bullshit as there is an inherent problem in upbringing with the narrative and hate used against the west. As usual we see apoloogist views that deny real problem sin the Muslim community. The other is the view point of Islam itself where why would a Muslim be so incensed over something that happens to a Muslim from countries to removed from each other? Because it teaches of how any harm to Muslims is like harm to themselves as a brother and sisterhood. Its all this bullshit rhetoric that are major aspects making Muslims easy swayed to join extremist groups. So what does the extremist come out with?

Nothing that can be as comparable to the problematic issue of religious extremism, that has 2000 years of history of the issue of the worst aspect of a view of absolute laws, from a book

People can make up their own mind about her, than an extremist who uses Taqiya:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasmin_Alibhai-Brown

Didge wrote:People can make up their own mind about her, than an extremist who uses Taqiya:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasmin_Alibhai-Brown

Welcome back Smelly-Mentor.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Didge wrote:People can make up their own mind about her, than an extremist who uses Taqiya:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yasmin_Alibhai-Brown

Welcome back Smelly-Mentor.

Its Didge, so I guess your ability to read is off.

So tell me why Muslims born here would commit terrorist acts here with no connection to Iraq and Afghanistan, but only Islam? Then commit suicide attacks against their fellow British people? Why you think its any different from the hate narrative and conspiracies you also buy into that helped indoctrinate them with hate of the their fellow British people?
Why are we not then  seeing Christian suicide bombers also angered at Christian loss of life in the Middle east?

What a good article. Written by a Muslim so no screams of bias thank you. 
It is long past the time that Muslims need to shut up whining about being victims, step up and denounce these terrorists and most importantly decide whether they want to be a part of a western society or not. If not  they are free to follow their jihadi loving off spring back to the desert and see how much they enjoy living under sharia law,

Didge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Welcome back Smelly-Mentor.

Its Didge, so I guess your ability to read is off.

So tell me why Muslims born here would commit terrorist acts here with no connection to Iraq and Afghanistan, but only Islam? Then commit suicide attacks against their fellow British people? Why you think its any different from the hate narrative and conspiracies you also buy into that helped indoctrinate them with hate of the their fellow British people?
Why are we not then  seeing Christian suicide bombers also angered at Christian loss of life in the Middle east?

http://www.newsfixboard.com/t15003-cults-gangs-terrorism#285158

What hate narratives and conspiracies do I buy? Do I hate British people? Hmm!

I think I was spot on the first time, Smelly-Mentor.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Didge wrote:

Its Didge, so I guess your ability to read is off.

So tell me why Muslims born here would commit terrorist acts here with no connection to Iraq and Afghanistan, but only Islam? Then commit suicide attacks against their fellow British people? Why you think its any different from the hate narrative and conspiracies you also buy into that helped indoctrinate them with hate of the their fellow British people?
Why are we not then  seeing Christian suicide bombers also angered at Christian loss of life in the Middle east?

http://www.newsfixboard.com/t15003-cults-gangs-terrorism#285158

What hate narratives and conspiracies do I buy?  Do I hate British people? Hmm!

I think I was spot on the first time, Smelly-Mentor.

The above link fails to explain many aspects I have spoken about

I want your answers to my questions

I was spot on you lying about the woman in the article

Try again

So tell me why Muslims born here would commit terrorist acts here with no connection to Iraq and Afghanistan, but only Islam? Then commit suicide attacks against their fellow British people? Why do you think its any different from the hate narrative and conspiracies of hate against the west. you also buy into that helped indoctrinate them with hate of the their fellow British people?
Why are we not then  seeing Christian suicide bombers also angered at Christian loss of life in the Middle east?

OP wrote:Brutality begins at home. In looking for the reasons behind Tuesday’s Belgian atrocities, we have to face the fact that the ultimate cause lies in the upbringing of the killers.

Sooo...Muslims spank their children too much?  Am I hearing this right?  You would like to see the kids coddled a bit more?

How do you distinguish this from all the other pc theories out there?  Maybe next, we owe them a free hot lunch.  Then a free university degree.  A three-day week.  Free petrol.  A lottery ticket.  Early retirement.  A villa in the south of France?

It's a fact that, unlike in the US, Muslims in European countries are isolated and shunted off into ghettos--something that Europe invented, btw--and kept away from the homogeneous society, but that's a sociological phenomenon, not contemporary child-rearing practices.  So we should investigate this by likening terrorists to the spoilt kids at Columbine, bring in bus-loads of psychologists, and read books and discuss the matter in a group circle, over Cherry-Cokes??

I've got a really novel idea.  Why not ask them why they are so pissed-off?  Oh yeah...because the answer will be Iraq and Afghanistan.  Embarrassing...that!

Switch the subject, now.  The question isn't why are they pissed-off; it should be, what to do, what to do?  Genocide?  Meh...too close to Hitler.  B'sides, m'thinks that's a form of revenge, and revenge is too close to fear, and we don't want to admit that we are afraid...cause we really are tough...really!

Afraid!  Wow!  We have met the enemy, and he is us!  Walt Kelly was a genius.

Miffs2 wrote:What a good article. Written by a Muslim so no screams of bias thank you. 
It is long past the time that Muslims need to shut up whining about being victims, step up and denounce these terrorists and most importantly decide whether they want to be a part of a western society or not. If not  they are free to follow their jihadi loving off spring back to the desert and see how much they enjoy living under sharia law,

+1

Original Quill wrote:

OP wrote:Brutality begins at home. In looking for the reasons behind Tuesday’s Belgian atrocities, we have to face the fact that the ultimate cause lies in the upbringing of the killers.

I've got a really novel idea.  Why not ask them why they are so pissed-off?  Oh yeah...because the answer will be Iraq and Afghanistan.  Embarrassing...that!

Why would Muslims born in Belgium be pissed off about Iraq and Afghanistan?
Are you thus as I have stated fundamentally backing my view, then it is a view of Islamic teaching behind a brotherhood and sisterhood, based off supposed wrongs done to Muslims?
Christians and other minorities have died in Iraq, so by your view of pissed off we should see Christians also doing the same?
Why does your apologist stance fall apart easily when scrutinized?

Didge wrote:

Original Quill wrote:


I've got a really novel idea.  Why not ask them why they are so pissed-off?  Oh yeah...because the answer will be Iraq and Afghanistan.  Embarrassing...that!

Why would Muslims born in Belgium be pissed off about Iraq and Afghanistan?
Are you thus as I have stated fundamentally backing my view, then it is a view of Islamic teaching behind a brotherhood and sisterhood, based off supposed wrongs done to Muslims?
Christians and other minorities have died in Iraq, so by your view of pissed off we should see Christians also doing the same?
Why does your apologist stance fall apart easily when scrutinized?

Because they identify, and are pissed off.

I have always felt there is a lot to your thesis that the theological underpinnings are at issue here.  Gd. Lord...I'm a student of Ideology, of course I see your point.

But there is a thicker soup, here.  It's not just Wahhabism or any other rogue ideology, but that in conjunction with a million mistakes, by east, west and late-Ottomen, on into the mid-20th century.  Like it or not, until the rise of Japan and the Pacific world, the center of the universe was Europe.  The Middle-East is the two-cheeks of Europe's back ass.  Fact is...you shit outta that ass, as well as sit on it.  Look what's there.

And it's still going on, because--of all coincidences--look where they discovered oil?

We need a little perspective.  Yes, theology is one view.  Oil is another.  Not making stupid mistakes--like Iraq and Afghanistan--is another.  Avoiding the spoilt rich kid response, like revenge and genocide and xenophobia, is another.  

Incidentally, not taking ISIS too seriously, is another.  They can make headlines, but they really can't escalate into a geopolitical threat with pickup trucks and ammonia.  I've said this since 9-11, these guys are criminals, not soldiers.  This is a police action, not a war.  Recognize the kind of threat they pose, don't listen to the rhetoric and buffoonery.

Muslims do denounce terror attacks when they happen, more so than most others since from what I see they denounce them when they happen in places not only in Europe.

They denounce them same as the rest of us do.

Although if I was a Muslim I'd also get pissed off of being compared to terrorists and demanded to make a huge public outcry every damn time these things happen- and that expectation is NOT helpful btw.

There is also however a problem among a minority, and that has to be acknowledged too.

I also think it is silly how everytime a terror attack happens some media insists on quickly reporting a 'good Muslim' story. We get two stupid narratives every time.

Original Quill wrote:

Didge wrote:


Why would Muslims born in Belgium be pissed off about Iraq and Afghanistan?
Are you thus as I have stated fundamentally backing my view, then it is a view of Islamic teaching behind a brotherhood and sisterhood, based off supposed wrongs done to Muslims?
Christians and other minorities have died in Iraq, so by your view of pissed off we should see Christians also doing the same?
Why does your apologist stance fall apart easily when scrutinized?

Because they identify, and are pissed off.

That explains naff all
The rest of your post did not even address my questions

Try again

Why would Muslims born in Belgium be pissed off about Iraq and Afghanistan?
Are you thus as I have stated fundamentally backing my view, then it is a view of Islamic teaching behind a brotherhood and sisterhood, based off supposed wrongs done to Muslims?
Christians and other minorities have died in Iraq, so by your view of pissed off we should see Christians also doing the same?
Why does your apologist stance fall apart easily when scrutinized?

Les wrote:There is also however a problem among a minority, and that has to be acknowledged too.

In the proper way. We need a little perspective, here. That "minority" is a criminal gang...not some earth-shaking world war.

When we had the Mafia or Irish gangs of south Boston, did we declare war on Sicily or Dublin? Did we send in F-18's or A-10's? It's ridiculous to think we are opposed to the whole world of Islam. Thinking that way is a carry-over from our all-too-easy racist past: Italians can be criminals; but Muslims are a hoard!!

Original Quill wrote:

Les wrote:There is also however a problem among a minority, and that has to be acknowledged too.

In the proper way.  We need a little perspective, here.  That "minority" is a criminal gang...not some earth-shaking world war.  

When we had the Mafia or Irish gangs of south Boston, did we declare war on Sicily or Dublin?  Did we send in F-18's or  A-10's?  It's ridiculous to think we are opposed to the whole world of Islam.  Thinking that way is a carry-over from our all-too-easy racist past: Italians can be criminals; but Muslims are a hoard!!

Nonsense and irrelevant

We are talking about why p[eople born into Europe and other nations not connected with Syria, Iraq or Afghanistan would based only that they are Muslims wish to murder the people they live with?
How and why they also go to believe its okay to rape little girls, enslave them, behead people ect as ISIS believes?
It simply has many Islamic texts for them to use.
You cannot argue off what happened a hundred years ago as again why is it we did not see either Germany or Japan carry out such terrorism under occupation, where they had tyrants removed. That is no different to Saddam being removed. Clearly much is played on then narratives, conspiracies of hate against the west by Muslims and this is believed by both extremists and many Muslims non-extremist. Some are then drawn by the glorification of Martyrdom, etc. So if other nations have had conflict, why is it only vastly Muslims no matter where born that turn to violence that we see today with terrorism?

Eilzel wrote:Muslims do denounce terror attacks when they happen, more so than most others since from what I see they denounce them when they happen in places not only in Europe.

They denounce them same as the rest of us do.

Although if I was a Muslim I'd also get pissed off of being compared to terrorists and demanded to make a huge public outcry every damn time these things happen- and that expectation is NOT helpful btw.

There is also however a problem among a minority, and that has to be acknowledged too.

I also think it is silly how everytime a terror attack happens some media insists on quickly reporting a 'good Muslim' story. We get two stupid narratives every time.

Like it said on the tv. They were quick enough to march to show their outrage at a bloody cartoon. Where are those people? All at home tweeting their joy at the carnage and their God is great drivel? If atrocities were being done in my name I would be out there shooting my defiance and making sure that everything was being done to catch them, but then I'm not an appeaser or an excuser. My concern is for the victims of these sick self indulgent bastards.

Miffs2 wrote:

Eilzel wrote:Muslims do denounce terror attacks when they happen, more so than most others since from what I see they denounce them when they happen in places not only in Europe.

They denounce them same as the rest of us do.

Although if I was a Muslim I'd also get pissed off of being compared to terrorists and demanded to make a huge public outcry every damn time these things happen- and that expectation is NOT helpful btw.

There is also however a problem among a minority, and that has to be acknowledged too.

I also think it is silly how everytime a terror attack happens some media insists on quickly reporting a 'good Muslim' story. We get two stupid narratives every time.

Like it said on the tv. They were quick enough to march to show their outrage at a bloody cartoon. Where are those people? All at home tweeting their joy at the carnage and their God is great drivel? If atrocities were being done in my name I would be out there shooting my defiance and making sure that everything was being done to catch them, but then I'm not an appeaser or an excuser. My concern is for the victims of these sick self indulgent bastards.

Nothing less than criminals, no doubt. I understand three are dead, one is in jail, and two are still on the lam (the white coat and 2nd guy in the subway).

Dodge and Miffed appear to be acting so deliberately thick here, as to ignore the obvious -- that Ms Browns nom-de-plume is pronounced "alabi"  ???


AS FOR that reference in the OP to Muslims being so strict and dominating within their families, and their insular attitudes towards wider society -- as I was growing up I saw around me the same attitudes and behaviour in several nominally Christian, agnostic and atheist families that I knew of, and whose children went to the same schools or lived in the same neighbourhood..

WHILE some of those kids did certainly grow up with obvious social problems, and may have had some odd ideas, and a couple joined gangs or ended up in fringe religions -- none of them have become terrorists.   At least not yet..

NOR do we see the rabid connections and purported associations being directed towards their backgrounds and upbringings, as we are seeing in the obsessions of so much media, blogging commentators, and online hate sites..?

Greenie for you, it's obviously the truth but them wallow.

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Dodge and Miffed appear to be acting so deliberately thick here, as to ignore the obvious -- that Ms Browns nom-de-plume is pronounced "alabi"  ???


AS FOR that reference in the OP to Muslims being so strict and dominating within their families, and their insular attitudes towards wider society -- as I was growing up I saw around me the same attitudes and behaviour in several nominally Christian, agnostic and atheist families that I knew of, and whose children went to the same schools or lived in the same neighbourhood..

WHILE some of those kids did certainly grow up with obvious social problems, and may have had some odd ideas, and a couple joined gangs or ended up in fringe religions -- none of them have become terrorists.   At least not yet..

NOR do we see the rabid connections and purported associations being directed towards their backgrounds and upbringings, as we are seeing in the obsessions of so much media, blogging commentators, and online hate sites..?

How about actually answering the points I actually made instead of you typical Islamist apologist nonsense
You do realise the woman who wrote this article was raised within a Muslim upbringing, something you have never even had.
To then go off other religious backgrounds is then even more problematic with Muslim ones, being as we do see Muslims brought up to blame and hate the west. This is undeniable. Its not even claiming all are and that all do then turn to extremism, but these certainly are factors. If you go off other religions you need to show comparable situations to nations of where there is the same cultural upbring issues with Christanity with say in Pakistan, where this ladies heritage is from

So best you stop offering the forum your apologist bullshit and back it up with some real evidence that would be comparable to the laregly Pakistani heritage ethnicity she is speaking of.

Then answer the following

We are talking about why p[eople born into Europe and other nations not connected with Syria, Iraq or Afghanistan would based only that they are Muslims wish to murder the people they live with?
How and why they also go to believe its okay to rape little girls, enslave them, behead people ect as ISIS believes?
It simply has many Islamic texts for them to use.
You cannot argue off what happened a hundred years ago as again why is it we did not see either Germany or Japan carry out such terrorism under occupation, where they had tyrants removed. That is no different to Saddam being removed. Clearly much is played on then narratives, conspiracies of hate against the west by Muslims and this is believed by both extremists and many Muslims non-extremist. Some are then drawn by the glorification of Martyrdom, etc. So if other nations have had conflict, why is it only vastly Muslims no matter where born that turn to violence that we see today with terrorism?

What did he say??

I barely got the jist of it:

1. He wants to stop having your own opinion;
2. He wants you to only have his opinion;
and, 3. He wants you to answer a bunch of questions (he's always got a question or two that you didn't answer! lol).

Sounds like a lotta work. S'cuse while I go fetch a cuppa tea.

Original Quill wrote:What did he say??

I barely got the jist of it:

1.  He wants to stop having your own opinion;
2.  He wants you to only have his opinion;
and, 3. He wants you to answer a bunch of questions (he's always got a question or two that you didn't answer! lol).

Sounds like a lotta work.  S'cuse while I go fetch a cuppa tea.

Poor misconception, and a deflection, as you cannot answer my points

Just explain to me one thing Quill

You seem to be making an argument there is something wrong with only Muslims being pissed off an wars in other countries, unconnected other than religiously, that they will turn to terrorism in Europe?
Explain why this dopes not happen with previous wars in Africa, South America etc within Europe?
By your view we should not admit Muslims, as they take things that happened not even to them, or even their country and even years on the past as a means of hate against people. Yet they as a religious group, conquered, colonized, subjugated, enslaved, had the most prolific Apartheid system through theocracy for years and now they bemoan when they have been freed from two tyrannical groups?
The Taliban and the Baathist's, who butchered hundreds of thousands?
To then instead of building a new nation, and where two nations used them as battlegrounds, is a reason to hate the west?
They should hate Saudi, Iran and Pakistan, for ruining the chance to have new freedom, having their lands being used for proxy religious wars, with them flooding the area with insurgents

Didge wrote:

Original Quill wrote:What did he say??

I barely got the jist of it:

1.  He wants to stop having your own opinion;
2.  He wants you to only have his opinion;
and, 3. He wants you to answer a bunch of questions (he's always got a question or two that you didn't answer! lol).

Sounds like a lotta work.  S'cuse while I go fetch a cuppa tea.

Poor misconception, and a deflection, as you cannot answer my points

I don't care about your points.  Make them...no sweat off my balls.  I've already said what I have to say, and left for other threads.  It's not difficult, didge.

Didge wrote:Just explain to me one thing Quill

You seem to be making an argument there is something wrong with only Muslims being pissed off an wars in other countries, unconnected other than religiously, that they will turn to terrorism in Europe?

No, I think religion is involved in the mix.

Didge wrote:Explain why this dopes not happen with previous wars in Africa, South America etc within Europe?

Different people and different circumstances.

Didge wrote:By your view we should not admit Muslims,

What does that mean?  I'm not advocating closing borders.  That's Trump.

Didge wrote:...as they take things that happened not even to them, or even their country and even years on the past as a means of hate against people.

Well, they have no country; the British set all that up.  As far as the past, I'm in agreement that western/middle-eastern relations go back to the Crusades.  And, we haven't always been on our best behavior.

Didge wrote:Yet they as a religious group, conquered, colonized, subjugated, enslaved, had the most prolific Apartheid system through theocracy for years and now they bemoan when they have been freed from two tyrannical groups?

The Taliban and the Baathist's, who butchered hundreds of thousands?

It sounds kinda like an apt description of Anglo-Saxons.  This is why, in the Anthropology Section, I posted that Review of the book about the Yahi Native Americans.  That book made the point that few peoples approached the rest of the world with the arrogance and superciliousness of the Anglo-Saxon and progeny....not even the Iberian-Americans, which as you know, includes the Spaniards and Med. Arabs.

But of what use is it to raise the parallel between Muslims and Anglo-Saxons?  Are you going to correct things?  Make it all better?  It's a non-sequitur, is it not?  At best, your argument is that both the Muslim and the Anglo-Saxon might owe reparations to other peoples of the world.

History can help you to understand cause and effect, but in no way can it undo it, nor become a platform/excuse for bad moral judgments. Just because some bad people have existed along the way is no reason why we, too, should behave badly.  The best moral argument history raises, is: Tit-for-tat.  That's really not good enough here.

No

Original Quill wrote:

Miffs2 wrote:
Like it said on the tv. They were quick enough to march to show their outrage at a bloody cartoon. Where are those people? All at home tweeting their joy at the carnage and their God is great drivel? If atrocities were being done in my name I would be out there shooting my defiance and making sure that everything was being done to catch them, but then I'm not an appeaser or an excuser. My concern is for the victims of these sick self indulgent bastards.

Nothing less than criminals, no doubt.  I understand three are dead, one is in jail, and two are still on the lam (the white coat and 2nd guy in the subway).

That seems to what the Belgium authorities seem to be saying, the suicide bombers were known as criminals involved in serious organised crime. Organised crime? Doesn't that suggest drugs, prostitution, trafficking? How unislamic.

Original Quill wrote:

I don't care about your points.  Make them...no sweat off my balls.  I've already said what I have to say, and left for other threads.  It's not difficult, didge.No, I think religion is involved in the mix.
Different people and different circumstances.
What does that mean?  I'm not advocating closing borders.  That's Trump.
.

So you do not care what I have to say, because you know I am fundamentally right and you just argued against having Muslims in your country, because read back, no matter where they are, they are going to be pissed as you say at what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan. Which by your stupidity even excuses now every singles crusade.

I mean every Christian in the 11th century had a right to be pissed off at Arab colonialism right Quill based on your regressive thinking.

You see its absolutely so easy for me to wipe the floor of someone clueless on historical debate.
They end up arguing for something they just used in their reply as a reason why the crusades happened

I used to think you had intelligence

Not anymore after that last poor rely

You just gave cause to every unjustified religious calling for war

In the end, its you giving Trump a reason to close them, off your poor arguments.

Its a good thing I will stand against him with better ones you give which actually aid him

Miffs2 wrote:No

Original Quill wrote:

Nothing less than criminals, no doubt.  I understand three are dead, one is in jail, and two are still on the lam (the white coat and 2nd guy in the subway).

That seems to what the Belgium authorities seem to be saying, the suicide bombers were known as criminals involved in serious organised crime. Organised crime? Doesn't that suggest drugs, prostitution, trafficking? How unislamic.

The Belgium Police are off their ass.  The government over there didn't exist for two year...kinda like Somolia.  They are barely catching up.  (Why do you think it's a haven for terrorists?)  

The Belgiums don't want to admit how bad they are, so they forget that both Turkey and France, as well as Interpol, informed them that the brothers were ISIS, and had been detained on the Turkish/Syrian border and deported west.

When I say they are just criminals, I don't mean to say they are not involved in an international movement.  I mean that their deeds--heinous and unspeakable tho they are--do not constitute acts of war.  They are just criminal acts.  Therefore, we need not respond in a warlike manner.

This is also true of the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, 9-11 and 7-7...just criminal acts.  Don't let arseholes like Trump and Cameron convince you this justifies another invasion. The response should be criminal law. The best thing I heard on the news this am, is that the NYC-PD is sending a contingent over to Belgium to help out.  Those are the seasoned guys, in the know.

Original Quill wrote:

Miffs2 wrote:No

That seems to what the Belgium authorities seem to be saying, the suicide bombers were known as criminals involved in serious organised crime. Organised crime? Doesn't that suggest drugs, prostitution, trafficking? How unislamic.

The Belgium Police are off their ass.  The government over there didn't exist for two year...kinda like Somolia.  They are barely catching up.  (Why do you think it's a haven for terrorists?)  

The Belgiums don't want to admit how bad they are, so they forget that both Turkey and France, as well as Interpol, informed them that the brothers were ISIS, and had been detained on the Turkish/Syrian border and deported west.

When I say they are just criminals, I don't mean to say they are not involved in an international movement.  I mean that their deeds--heinous and unspeakable tho they are--do not constitute acts of war.  They are just criminal acts.  Therefore, we need not respond in a warlike manner.

This is also true of the World Trade Center, the Pentagon, 9-11 and 7-7...just criminal acts.  The best thing I heard on the news this am, is that the NYCPD is sending a contingent over there to help.  Those are the guys in the know.

And where do you based any of the above on what evidence?

The Quill school of bullshit?

Didge wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

I don't care about your points.  Make them...no sweat off my balls.  I've already said what I have to say, and left for other threads.  It's not difficult, didge.No, I think religion is involved in the mix.
Different people and different circumstances.
What does that mean?  I'm not advocating closing borders.  That's Trump.
.

So you do not care what I have to say, because you know I am fundamentally right and you just argued against having Muslims in your country, because read back, no matter where they are, they are going to be pissed as you say at what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan. Which by your stupidity even excuses now every singles crusade.

I mean every Christian in the 11th century had a right to be pissed off at Arab colonialism right Quill based on your regressive thinking.

You see its absolutely so easy for me to wipe the floor of someone clueless on historical debate.
They end up arguing for something they just used in their reply as a reason why the crusades happened

I used to think you had intelligence

Not anymore after that last poor rely

You just gave cause to every unjustified religious calling for war

In the end, its you giving Trump a reason to close them, off your poor arguments.

Its a good thing I will stand against him with better ones you give which actually aid him

Then answer above

Didge, is it cocktail hour over there right now? There's a distinct slur in your typing. Lol.

Original Quill wrote:Didge, is it cocktail hour over there right now?  There's a distinct slur in your typing.  Lol.

You mean its Quill copout hour over there right now?, There is a distinct, surrender and waving of the white flag in your typing .  lol.

I think we often underestimate the power of the psychology embedded in religion and culture.  Fanaticism comes in many forms, from the suicide bombers of DAESH to historical religious martyrs who burned for their faith.  What makes someone do this, or behave this way?   

It has to be something more than just following the word of God.  It has more to do with being offered something perceived as heroic, appealing to the vainglorious ideal of attaining some personal significance and ideal and a place in history that belongs to them and only them.   In short, it has to do with feeding the ego.  I don't doubt too, that those who seek this kind of pathway are probably bored and disillusioned with their lot in life.   Then of course you have the true psychopaths, who flock to vile regimes likes flies to shit.





 Such quest for purpose and significance is a pre-eminent human motive, long recognized by psychological theorists (Fiske, 2004; Maslow, 1943). It denotes the supreme importance to humans of being noticed, mattering, and deserving honour and esteem.

Didge wrote:

Original Quill wrote:Didge, is it cocktail hour over there right now?  There's a distinct slur in your typing.  Lol.

You mean its Quill copout hour over there right now?, There is a distinct, surrender and waving of the white flag in your typing .  lol.

You're drunk, didge. Look, I can simply look at the clock and tell when I hear open belligerence and anger in a post, that it is drinking time in the UK.

Fuok your cross-examination. If you can't make your point without that bullshit, then you've already lost. Typically...

This is the way it works: you make your point; I make my point; we have a couple of exchanges, change some minds, maybe not, and then leave it alone if there's no agreement. If you go beyond that, you're an ass hole and you get ugly.

Chees.

HoratioTarr wrote:I think we often underestimate the power of the psychology embedded in religion and culture.  Fanaticism comes in many forms, from the suicide bombers of DAESH to historical religious martyrs who burned for their faith.  What makes someone do this, or behave this way?   

It has to be something more than just following the word of God.  It has more to do with being offered something perceived as heroic, appealing to the vainglorious ideal of attaining some personal significance and ideal and a place in history that belongs to them and only them.   In short, it has to do with feeding the ego.  I don't doubt too, that those who seek this kind of pathway are probably bored and disillusioned with their lot in life.   Then of course you have the true psychopaths, who flock to vile regimes likes flies to shit.





 Such quest for purpose and significance is a pre-eminent human motive, long recognized by psychological theorists (Fiske, 2004; Maslow, 1943). It denotes the supreme importance to humans of being noticed, mattering, and deserving honour and esteem.

Yes!  Now that adds something to the discussion.  I've been thinking along the exact same lines...Islam and wahhabism are merely doctrines.  There has to be something that involves the ego...something that makes the individual subscribe.  Not just any subscription, but one that causes him to give up his life.

BTW, it's curious that amid all that, the Paris attacker who was caught last Friday, still feared being caught...we learned from his laptop.  I question whether that is just enthusiasm.  It means he had doubts.  What makes you willing to kill yourself, yet still fear something so mundane as being caught?

Maybe we should all reread Viktor Frankl, Man's Search for Meaning. http://www.readanybook.com/ebook/mans-search-for-meaning-565071

Original Quill wrote:

Didge wrote:

You mean its Quill copout hour over there right now?, There is a distinct, surrender and waving of the white flag in your typing .  lol.

You're drunk, didge.  Look, I can simply look at the clock and tell when I hear open belligerence and anger in a post, that it is drinking time in the UK.

Fuok your cross-examination.  If you can't make your point without that bullshit, then you've already lost.  Typically...

This is the way it works: you make your point; I make my point; we have a couple of exchanges, change some minds, maybe not, and then leave it alone if there's no agreement.    If you go beyond that, you're an ass hole and you get ugly.

Chees.

Like I say, there is a distinct Chamberlain style to your debating when its shown up to be utter and sheer bollocks, that all you can do is try to conclude a person who does not drink is drunk.

You are done on this debate, allow some people who have intelligence and know what they are talking about to debate this

Twice now you have been unable to respond to my points mainly as you are a regressive left wing Islamist appeaser


One last chance


So you do not care what I have to say, because you know I am fundamentally right and you just argued against having Muslims in your country, because read back, no matter where they are, they are going to be "pissed" as you say at what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan. Which by your stupidity even excuses now every single crusade.

I mean every Christian in the 11th century had a right to be pissed off at Arab colonialism right Quill based on your regressive thinking.

You see its absolutely so easy for me to wipe the floor of someone clueless on historical debate.
They end up arguing for something they just used in their reply as a reason why the crusades happened

You just gave cause to every unjustified religious calling for war

In the end, its you giving Trump a reason to close US borders off your poor arguments.

Its a good thing I will stand against him and reason why he is wrong.

Not interested, didge. Sober up.

Original Quill wrote:What did he say??

I barely got the jist of it:

1.  He wants to stop having your own opinion;
2.  He wants you to only have his opinion;
and, 3. He wants you to answer a bunch of questions (he's always got a question or two that you didn't answer! lol).

Sounds like a lotta work.  S'cuse while I go fetch a cuppa tea.

POOR li'l ol' Dodgeridoo..

THE poor little cupcake seems to be either totally off his rocker these days, or perpetually drunk..
Or maybe both.

I believe he wants all of us opponents to answer some vague questions that he asked someone else a few posts back ?
That arrogant sod is turning into a real little Hitler/Napolean hybrid with his bullying demands on here..

NOT ONLY is he so opposed to anyone having opinions contrary to his muddle-headed thoughts;
He never fails in producing some new trumped up nonsense or Zionist blogger to back his absurd claims !

I WONDER if we feed him the right materials on here,  he might spin around in fury a few times, burst into flames, and eventually disappear up his own backside ?

                       

Original Quill wrote:Not interested, didge.  Sober up.

Oh dear again with the unfounded accusations,

Like I say you have not got a clue about history or social issues as easily proven

WhoseYourWolfie wrote:

Original Quill wrote:What did he say??

I barely got the jist of it:

1.  He wants to stop having your own opinion;
2.  He wants you to only have his opinion;
and, 3. He wants you to answer a bunch of questions (he's always got a question or two that you didn't answer! lol).

Sounds like a lotta work.  S'cuse while I go fetch a cuppa tea.

POOR li'l ol' Dodgeridoo..

THE poor little cupcake seems to be either totally off his rocker these days, or perpetually drunk..
Or maybe both.

And yet another one derailing the thread

Grow up you pathetic little child

Just because you two are ignorant regressive with no idea what you are talking about. Its not my fault I easily show you both up to the point you make unfounded childish and immature claims of posters

Didge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

http://www.newsfixboard.com/t15003-cults-gangs-terrorism#285158

What hate narratives and conspiracies do I buy?  Do I hate British people? Hmm!

I think I was spot on the first time, Smelly-Mentor.

The above link fails to explain many aspects I have spoken about

I want your answers to my questions

I was spot on you lying about the woman in the article

Try again

So tell me why Muslims born here would commit terrorist acts here with no connection to Iraq and Afghanistan, but only Islam? Then commit suicide attacks against their fellow British people? Why do you think its any different from the hate narrative and conspiracies of hate against the west. you also buy into that helped indoctrinate them with hate of the their fellow British people?
Why are we not then  seeing Christian suicide bombers also angered at Christian loss of life in the Middle east?

First of all, I didn't lie about "the woman". I gave an opinion. So take your finger out of your pretentious arse.

Secondly, I asked you to clarify why narrative and conspiracy theories that I supposedly buy too? Seems like you were a bit scared to clarify. Again, that's just an opinion.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Didge wrote:

The above link fails to explain many aspects I have spoken about

I want your answers to my questions

I was spot on you lying about the woman in the article

Try again

So tell me why Muslims born here would commit terrorist acts here with no connection to Iraq and Afghanistan, but only Islam? Then commit suicide attacks against their fellow British people? Why do you think its any different from the hate narrative and conspiracies of hate against the west. you also buy into that helped indoctrinate them with hate of the their fellow British people?
Why are we not then  seeing Christian suicide bombers also angered at Christian loss of life in the Middle east?

First of all, I didn't lie about "the woman". I gave an opinion. So take your finger out of your pretentious arse.

Secondly, I asked you to clarify why narrative and conspiracy theories that I supposedly buy too? Seems like you were a bit scared to clarify. Again, that's just an opinion.

Your opinion was based on a lie and not what s known about her

You have claimed 9/11 was a set up and Israel behind this, that the west is out to destroy islam conspiracies also you have posted on this

The evidence is there countless times on this forum of things you have posted that claims such bull.

Didge wrote:

Original Quill wrote:


I've got a really novel idea.  Why not ask them why they are so pissed-off?  Oh yeah...because the answer will be Iraq and Afghanistan.  Embarrassing...that!

Why would Muslims born in Belgium be pissed off about Iraq and Afghanistan?
Are you thus as I have stated fundamentally backing my view, then it is a view of Islamic teaching behind a brotherhood and sisterhood, based off supposed wrongs done to Muslims?
Christians and other minorities have died in Iraq, so by your view of pissed off we should see Christians also doing the same?
Why does your apologist stance fall apart easily when scrutinized?

The vast majority of Muslims feel the pain of anyone suffering in the Ummah. If they all joined ISIS then you would see a billion people committing acts of terror. Correlation isn't always causation.

The same feelings also promote charity and a sense of family with someone from an otherwise alien culture.

Didge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

First of all, I didn't lie about "the woman". I gave an opinion. So take your finger out of your pretentious arse.

Secondly, I asked you to clarify why narrative and conspiracy theories that I supposedly buy too? Seems like you were a bit scared to clarify. Again, that's just an opinion.

Your opinion was based on a lie and not what s known about her

You have claimed 9/11 was a set up and Israel behind this, that the west is out to destroy islam conspiracies also you have posted on this

The evidence is there countless times on this forum of things you have posted that claims such bull.

LOL! You're the desperate one lying. If I've said it countless times, prove it. Give me the link. As you're so fond of saying, put up or shut up.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Didge wrote:


Why would Muslims born in Belgium be pissed off about Iraq and Afghanistan?
Are you thus as I have stated fundamentally backing my view, then it is a view of Islamic teaching behind a brotherhood and sisterhood, based off supposed wrongs done to Muslims?
Christians and other minorities have died in Iraq, so by your view of pissed off we should see Christians also doing the same?
Why does your apologist stance fall apart easily when scrutinized?

The vast majority of Muslims feel the pain of anyone suffering in the Ummah. If they all joined ISIS then you would see a billion people committing acts of terror. Correlation isn't always causation.

The same feelings also promote charity and a sense of family with someone from an otherwise alien culture.

Then thank you for proving how much a problem that Islam is.
Just because the majority do not act, does not mean its still not an issue that a substantial amount in the millions act or support such a cause.

They promote charity and a sense of family towards other Muslims only as under all Theocratic Islamic rulings throughout the ages all non-Muslim citizens were rendered secondary to Muslims. The problem stems on its teaching of transgressions and a view that the best way into its heaven is by taking others lives through sacrificing their own through Martyrdom

That is apartheid and is echoed throughout Islamic history

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Didge wrote:

Your opinion was based on a lie and not what s known about her

You have claimed 9/11 was a set up and Israel behind this, that the west is out to destroy islam conspiracies also you have posted on this

The evidence is there countless times on this forum of things you have posted that claims such bull.

LOL! You're the desperate one lying. If I've said it countless times, prove it. Give me the link. As you're so fond of saying, put up or shut up.

Are you now lying that you have not debated conspiracies on 9/11, Jews controlling money, Rothschild conspiracies first invented by the Nazis conspiracies on oil? I could go on the list is endless to the bullshit you have posted up
I do not need to do anything, its just proves now you are very much an advocate of Taqiya
It just speaks volumes about you that now you would even try to deny it. lol

So thank you again for proving you certainly use Taqiya

Quill, I rarely read these long arguments because quite frankly they do waffle on so, but I would like to hear your answer to this part of Didge's post:

[snipped]...you just argued against having Muslims in your country, because read back, no matter where they are, they are going to be "pissed" as you say at what happened in Iraq and Afghanistan. [edited to take out an insult]

I mean every Christian in the 11th century had a right to be pissed off at Arab colonialism right Quill based on your regressive thinking.[snipped]

He does have a point about the Christians.