The Government wants to cut help for disabled people to buy specially adapted equipment

Ministers are planning to cut a key element of the Personal Independent Payment

A coalition of 25 disability charities has written to the Government to warn against plans that would strip some disabled people of a key payments meant to help them live more independent lives.

The Disability Benefits Consortium wrote to the minister for disabled people, Justin Tomlinson, to argue that proposed changes to Personal Independence Payment – or PIP – assessments would have a “severe impact” on people’s security and make it harder for them to find work.

The Government wants to cut PIP payments for people who currently receive it to help them afford specially-adapted appliances and equipment.

Examples of qualifying equipment currently includes adapted cutlery for people who find it difficult to hold things for long periods of time and specially-designed household items for people less able to stand.

The Government says a review found the current payments were “not working as planned”, but charities say stripping disabled people of the assistance will hurt the most vulnerable.

“This decision could have a devastating impact on the lives of people with MS. In the worst cases, they could lose up to £150 a week,” said Michelle Mitchell, chief executive of the MS Society.

“PIP is an essential benefit which goes towards the extra cost of being disabled.

“The new plans will fail some of the most vulnerable people in society and we have serious concerns about the future health and welfare of those affected.”

The call comes a day after new figures from the Department for Work and Pensions showed that the assessment process for Employment and Support Allowance – another disability benefit – was putting people into the wrong category of a widespread scale.

Those figures showed that over half of appeals against ESA “fit to work” decisions were successful – and that thousands of people who were deemed “fit to work” were actually ill.

36 per cent of all ESA “fit to work” claims are appealed, meaning the mistakes affect a large number of people.
The Minister for Disabled People, Justin Tomlinson, said: “The introduction of Personal Independence Payment to replace the outdated Disability Living Allowance for working age claimants has been a hugely positive reform.

“But it is clear that the assessment criteria for aids and appliances are not working as planned. Many people are eligible for a weekly award despite having minimal to no extra costs and judicial decisions have expanded the criteria for aids and appliances to include items we would expect people to have in their homes already.

“We consulted widely to find the best approach. And this new change will ensure that PIP is fairer and targets support at those who need it most.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/disability-benefit-cuts-pip-personal-independent-payment-adapted-equipment-dwp-justin-tomlinson-iain-a6926041.html



Vile, vile, vile, disgusting scummy buggers!

“But it is clear that the assessment criteria for aids and appliances are not working as planned. Many people are eligible for a weekly award despite having minimal to no extra costs and judicial decisions have expanded the criteria for aids and appliances to include items we would expect people to have in their homes already.

I think this is the relevant bit. There seems to be a blanket payment for such things which some people might not need.

No, this is the relevant bit:


“This decision could have a devastating impact on the lives of people with MS. In the worst cases, they could lose up to £150 a week,” said Michelle Mitchell, chief executive of the MS Society.

“PIP is an essential benefit which goes towards the extra cost of being disabled.

“The new plans will fail some of the most vulnerable people in society and we have serious concerns about the future health and welfare of those affected.”


If you believe anything this Government says you are easily fooled.

sassy wrote:No, this is the relevant bit:


“This decision could have a devastating impact on the lives of people with MS. In the worst cases, they could lose up to £150 a week,” said Michelle Mitchell, chief executive of the MS Society.

“PIP is an essential benefit which goes towards the extra cost of being disabled.

“The new plans will fail some of the most vulnerable people in society and we have serious concerns about the future health and welfare of those affected.”


If you believe anything this Government says you are easily fooled.

But what if they don't actually have £150-worth of extra costs?

In the worst cases, they could lose up to £150 a week,

People IN THE WORST CASES, need that money.

Have you any idea how expensive it is to be disabled?

sassy wrote:In the worst cases, they could lose up to £150 a week,

People IN THE WORST CASES, need that money.

Yes, but the point is that if the money is specifically for such equipment, how does anyone know they're spending it on that equipment? People might need specific things, depending on what kind of disability they have, so wouldn't it make more sense to itemise those things and the cost rather than have a blanket payment?

sassy wrote:Have you any idea how expensive it is to be disabled?

Well it's a blanket term isn't it? Can you be more specific?

It is a sign of the timez, with all the migruntz scroungerz coming here this misgovernment will TAKE the money from the disabled, sick children, our police force, NHS and so on to give to them, those who Sassy so strongly extols.
I am sick to death of people taking my money who have not contributed to our country and those who have are being robbed.

Don't be so bloody ridiculous, the money is still there, the government is taking is away.

Raggamuffin wrote:

sassy wrote:In the worst cases, they could lose up to £150 a week,

People IN THE WORST CASES, need that money.

Yes, but the point is that if the money is specifically for such equipment, how does anyone know they're spending it on that equipment? People might need specific things, depending on what kind of disability they have, so wouldn't it make more sense to itemise those things and the cost rather than have a blanket payment?

how patronising, and utterly humiliating could you get ....

moreover how much would be wasted in administering such a scheme...

and can you imagine this taken to its logical conclusion


you need a commode mrs "X"?

well your husband is a carpenter...he can make you one.... tough....

Lord Foul wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Yes, but the point is that if the money is specifically for such equipment, how does anyone know they're spending it on that equipment? People might need specific things, depending on what kind of disability they have, so wouldn't it make more sense to itemise those things and the cost rather than have a blanket payment?

how patronising, and utterly humiliating could you get ....

moreover how much would be wasted in administering such a scheme...

and can you imagine this taken to its logical conclusion


you need a commode mrs "X"?

well your husband is a carpenter...he can make you one.... tough....

A lot of things disabled people need are deeply personal, even nappies in some cases.  It's utterly horrible.

the thought of making the aid dependant on some sort of "accounting" is just a smoke screen to "put them off claiming" ...heaping indignity and shame upon misery and suffering

Well Mrs "X" im sorry, but I think you only need 2 nappies a day NOT 5....

Lord Foul wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

Yes, but the point is that if the money is specifically for such equipment, how does anyone know they're spending it on that equipment? People might need specific things, depending on what kind of disability they have, so wouldn't it make more sense to itemise those things and the cost rather than have a blanket payment?

how patronising, and utterly humiliating could you get ....

moreover how much would be wasted in administering such a scheme...

and can you imagine this taken to its logical conclusion


you need a commode mrs "X"?

well your husband is a carpenter...he can make you one.... tough....

What's wrong with asking for a commode? They find what they need and then say how much it costs. Simple.

Empathy of a cockroach.  You are disabled, dignity not allowed.

sassy wrote:Empathy of a cockroach.  You are disabled, dignity not allowed.

I'm not the one being sensitive about commodes - you are. There's nothing undignified about asking for a commode.

of couse not...

except of course, once you put the disabled person into that position, you empower the inquisitor to demand justification

oh so you want a commode......WHY...?????

you dont get it do you raggs...

the people who carry out these inquisitions are EVIL, nasty sociopaths....chosen to make life difficult and degrading....

Its the tory way....

Lord Foul wrote:except of course, once you put the disabled person into that position, you empower the inquisitor to demand justification

oh so you want a commode......WHY...?????

you dont get it do you raggs...

the people who carry out these inquisitions are EVIL, nasty sociopaths....chosen to make life difficult and degrading....

Its the tory way....

You're introducing red herrings now though Victor.

What if they give people every week for stuff they don't actually need and don't actually buy?

well ragga...in that case...just for once......they win ...and can buy a bottle of plonk....oh ...I forgot they dont deserve that do they.....

of course WE pay for expensive meals for mp,s which they dont need......

(as well as a whole load of other stuff which costs us far more.....)

but thats ok innit...

Lord Foul wrote:well ragga...in that case...just for once......they win ...and can buy a bottle of plonk....oh ...I forgot they dont deserve that do they.....

of course WE pay for expensive meals for mp,s which they dont need......

(as well as a whole load of other stuff which costs us far more.....)

but thats ok innit...

Now you're introducing another red herring re expenses.

I'm merely discussing an alternative method. Isn't that why we have discussions on here - to discuss issues?

I don't know about the levels of payments that people get, but if they're spending their disability money on bottles of plonk, doesn't that kind of defeat the purpose of disability payments?

There are several levels of PIP payments and not everyone gets the top rate. Go read up on it. People are assessed and a level set for them

sassy wrote:
 

There are several levels of PIP payments and not everyone gets the top rate. Go read up on it. People are assessed and a level set for them

How do they assess what extra money people need though? It says here that many people who are eligible don't actually have extra costs.

“But it is clear that the assessment criteria for aids and appliances are not working as planned. Many people are eligible for a weekly award despite having minimal to no extra costs and judicial decisions have expanded the criteria for aids and appliances to include items we would expect people to have in their homes already.

so you are going to make them "justify every penny" ??

the idea is to make it simple and easy for people who already have enough on their plates....
besides as I said earlier...the administrative costs will swallow up any supposed savings....

this is just another brick in the wall of tory hatered and contempt of the less fortunate...

Raggamuffin wrote:

sassy wrote:
 

There are several levels of PIP payments and not everyone gets the top rate. Go read up on it. People are assessed and a level set for them

How do they assess what extra money people need though? It says here that many people who are eligible don't actually have extra costs.

“But it is clear that the assessment criteria for aids and appliances are not working as planned. Many people are eligible for a weekly award despite having minimal to no extra costs and judicial decisions have expanded the criteria for aids and appliances to include items we would expect people to have in their homes already.

They have a clinical assessment by a health professional who submits a report to the DWP and they decide. Don't you think they are more informed than you are to decide what someone's personal needs are? Seriously?

sassy wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

How do they assess what extra money people need though? It says here that many people who are eligible don't actually have extra costs.

They have a clinical assessment by a health professional who submits a report to the DWP and they decide. Don't you think they are more informed than you are to decide what someone's personal needs are? Seriously?

I'm not the one saying it though, the Government is. I do know people who get such payments even though they don't have extra costs.

Perhaps they need to review the existing system - which is what they're doing.

and the govt are liars twisters and running to an agenda of hate....

hardly reliable.....

perhaps instead they should stick 2p on tax,, that would raise far more, I'm sure you have lots of little perks you can "do without"

I have a question.

You could get between £21.80 and £139.75 a week.

https://www.gov.uk/pip/overview

How could anyone lose £150 per week if the maximum is £139.75?

after all...the only true human solution is

from the hands of those in plenty to the hands of those in need

Lord Foul wrote:and the govt are liars twisters and running to an agenda of hate....

hardly reliable.....

perhaps instead they should stick 2p on tax,, that would raise far more, I'm sure you have lots of little perks you can "do without"

I don't see the relevance of that last bit Victor.

Are you now saying that PIP is a "perk"?

no.i'm saying YOU seem to think that anything over the barest needs is, and I'm saying that if you beleive there is a problem, perhaps the answer to the problem (of availability of money to pay it) is to stick 2p on tax...

YOU are fortunate enought to be able to work and function normally....perhaps you should be grateful for THAT and stop trying to justify making those who re not so fortunate lives a misery....

Raggamuffin wrote:

sassy wrote:

They have a clinical assessment by a health professional who submits a report to the DWP and they decide. Don't you think they are more informed than you are to decide what someone's personal needs are? Seriously?

I'm not the one saying it though, the Government is. I do know people who get such payments even though they don't have extra costs.

Perhaps they need to review the existing system - which is what they're doing.

Go and check the information freely available to see many rejected at all levels only to be awarded PIP on appeal. you make it sound like a cakewack when it is anything but.

Lord Foul wrote:no.i'm saying YOU seem to think that anything over the barest needs is, and I'm saying that if you beleive there is a problem, perhaps the answer to the problem (of availability of money to pay it) is to stick 2p on tax...

YOU are fortunate enought to be able to work and function normally....perhaps you should be grateful for THAT and stop trying to justify making those who re not so fortunate lives a misery....

I haven't said that.

For example, if someone needs a wheelchair, they should be able to have one. All I'm saying that there's no point giving out the money if some people are going to spend it on plonk because they don't actually need any equipment or money for extra things.

Here's some more information with examples.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/personal-independence-payment-consultation-response-announced

When they're talking about items typically found in the home, they mean lightweight kitchen equipment, chairs, long-handled sponges, and raised toilet seats.

They're also saying that some items are available on the NHS or from the local council anyway, so they don't need to be paid for.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:no.i'm saying YOU seem to think that anything over the barest needs is, and I'm saying that if you beleive there is a problem, perhaps the answer to the problem (of availability of money to pay it) is to stick 2p on tax...

YOU are fortunate enought to be able to work and function normally....perhaps you should be grateful for THAT and stop trying to justify making those who re not so fortunate lives a misery....

I haven't said that.

For example, if someone needs a wheelchair, they should be able to have one. All I'm saying that there's no point giving out the money if some people are going to spend it on plonk because they don't actually need any equipment or money for extra things.

now you see ragga...why MY way of running things is better....because it takes people like you out of the equation

to wit

I would institute a welfare system of universal state credit

where by

1 ALL benefits, with the exception of certain "top up" benefits ...like the child benefits would be removed
2 state pensions would be removed

THEN

every elegible person over the age of 16 would receive (via HMRC) £10,000 per anum (or what ever sum works...this is merely example and not cast in stone...it may be more  or it may be less)

there would be NO lower tax threshold

the universal payment would be tax free

the tax thresholds would be 30% up to 50,000 earnings.....
40% up to 150,000
and 45% over that

bonuses greater than 10 times the lowest wage in that company would be taxed at 50%
at 10-20 times at 60%
at 20-30 times at 70%
and over that at 90%

the legal responsibility for paymment of tax would be transferred to the employer not the employees

the cost of doing this would be in part paid for by the removal of the vast admin needed for the present benefit system and the associated infrastructure

tax receipts would increase as people would be free to take any job even for just a day..and no complicated , twisted paperwork... the "hiring post" of old would come into its own....

and folks would be able to negotiate the wage to be paid...therby putting some power over wages back into the hands of the people being paid those wages....


also......



"

Raggamuffin wrote:Here's some more information with examples.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/personal-independence-payment-consultation-response-announced

When they're talking about items typically found in the home, they mean lightweight kitchen equipment, chairs, long-handled sponges, and raised toilet seats.

They're also saying that some items are available on the NHS or from the local council anyway, so they don't need to be paid for.

what home "typically" has a raised toilet seat in it???
what home "typically" has long handled sponges

what home "typically has "lightweight" kitchen equipment


NONE....

Lord Foul wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Here's some more information with examples.

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/personal-independence-payment-consultation-response-announced

When they're talking about items typically found in the home, they mean lightweight kitchen equipment, chairs, long-handled sponges, and raised toilet seats.

They're also saying that some items are available on the NHS or from the local council anyway, so they don't need to be paid for.

what home "typically" has a raised toilet seat in it???
what home "typically" has long handled sponges

what home "typically has "lightweight" kitchen equipment


NONE....

OK, perhaps I worded it wrong.    Why would a kitchen not have lightweight equipment? Nobody is forced to buy those ridiculously heavy pans you can get - I certainly wouldn't.

This is what it says.

Currently a claimant could receive £55 a week by using an aid or appliance in as little as 4 activities, for example:

preparing food: lightweight kitchen equipment typically found in a home anyway or low cost one-off purchases (2 points)
washing and bathing: long-handled sponge with low or minimal costs (2 points)
managing toilet needs or incontinence: raised toilet seat provided by the NHS (2 points)
dressing and undressing: chair for sitting on typically found in a home anyway (2 points)

this is the problem with using "tick boxes" it provides ammunition for the ill inclined....

see if for example you need lets say the first one

so you go to the assesment and they ask this "standard question" do you need an aid when cooking....thats 2 points

what THEY DONT ask is ...what else follows as a consequence of that need

so

a "pick up stick" .( you know them grabber things) to pick up what you drop on the floor
longer cords on the pull switches

all your electrical sockets moving to waist height

special plugs on all your gear becasue you cant grip mormal ones

special kitchen tools (like for instance the "good grip " range)

and the list is endless.....


they DONT ASK ABOUT THIS ...becasue it is a reasonable assumption that if you need lightweight kitchen gear...you WILL need the rest....


what are you going to do ...reverse that assumption and make them justify EVERY single little thing they need???

Sort yourself out Victor!

honestly ragga...without being deliberately nasty ...I wish I could inflict a disability on you for a limited time only (cos I'm not mean) just so you could see life from the "other side"

cos sometimes.....

you dont have a heart...you have a swinging brick.....

Could you stop editing my posts Victor?

Raggamuffin wrote:Sort yourself out Victor!

EH???? WOT??????

Lord Foul wrote:honestly ragga...without being deliberately nasty ...I wish I could inflict a disability on you for a limited time only (cos I'm not mean) just so you could see life from the "other side"

cos sometimes.....

you dont have a heart...you have a swinging brick.....

You're not the first to say that Victor - you sound just like Sassy. I'm merely discussing the subject.

And it did sound mean actually.

Lord Foul wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Sort yourself out Victor!

EH????  WOT??????

You clicked on edit instead of quote when you replied to me a couple of posts ago.

ahhh...mad mouse disease strikes again....

Raggamuffin wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:honestly ragga...without being deliberately nasty ...I wish I could inflict a disability on you for a limited time only (cos I'm not mean) just so you could see life from the "other side"

cos sometimes.....

you dont have a heart...you have a swinging brick.....

You're not the first to say that Victor - you sound just like Sassy. I'm merely discussing the subject.

And it did sound mean actually.

at least i would only remove your leg for a few weeks.......you could have it back then

Lord Foul wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

You're not the first to say that Victor - you sound just like Sassy. I'm merely discussing the subject.

And it did sound mean actually.

at least i would only remove your leg for a few weeks.......you could have it back then

Seconded.

That's just nasty ...

I don't know how you two can pretend you're so "moral".

Raggamuffin wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:

what home "typically" has a raised toilet seat in it???
what home "typically" has long handled sponges

what home "typically has "lightweight" kitchen equipment


NONE....

OK, perhaps I worded it wrong.    Why would a kitchen not have lightweight equipment? Nobody is forced to buy those ridiculously heavy pans you can get - I certainly wouldn't.

This is what it says.

Currently a claimant could receive £55 a week by using an aid or appliance in as little as 4 activities, for example:

preparing food: lightweight kitchen equipment typically found in a home anyway or low cost one-off purchases (2 points)
washing and bathing: long-handled sponge with low or minimal costs (2 points)
managing toilet needs or incontinence: raised toilet seat provided by the NHS (2 points)
dressing and undressing: chair for sitting on typically found in a home anyway (2 points)

this is the problem with using "tick boxes"  it provides ammunition for the ill inclined....

see if for example you need lets say the first one

so you go to the assesment and they ask this "standard question" do you need an aid when cooking....thats 2 points

what THEY DONT ask is ...what else follows as a consequence of that need

so

a "pick up stick" .( you know them grabber things) to pick up what you drop on the floor
longer cords on the pull switches

all your electrical sockets moving to waist height

special plugs on all your gear becasue you cant grip mormal ones

special kitchen tools (like for instance the "good grip "  range)

and the list is endless.....


they DONT ASK ABOUT THIS ...becasue it is a reasonable assumption that if you need lightweight kitchen gear...you WILL need the rest....


what are you going to do ...reverse that assumption and make them justify EVERY single little thing they need???

I hate to quote myself, but since Victor messed up the quote, I guess I'll have to.

Why are you assuming that someone who has trouble using heavy cooking equipment needs a pick-up stick, longer pull cords, or lower light switches?

Raggamuffin wrote:That's just nasty ...

I don't know how you two can pretend you're so "moral".

Nasty?   What you are saying about the situation that people find themselves in with this money being taken from them is nasty, they have to do it really.

sassy wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:That's just nasty ...

I don't know how you two can pretend you're so "moral".

Nasty?   What you are saying about the situation that people find themselves on with this money being taken from them is nasty, they have to do it really.

You're wishing disability on me - that's just nasty.