Faked Moon landing would have been exposed within four years, scientist concludes

by Guest Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:14 am

A scientist has used mathematics to disprove popular conspiracy theories.

Dr David Grimes, of the University of Oxford, developed a formula which showed that the numbers of people involved in sophisticated conspiracies, such as fake moon landings, would have led to them being exposed. He worked out that for something to stay a secret for over one hundred years could have involved a maximum of 125 people. However, a plot involving more than 2,521 people could stay covert no longer than five years. Therefore, the moon landings, which took place in 1969 and involved at least 411,000 Nasa employees, could not have been faked and kept secret until now, according to the formula. Dr Grimes said: "It is common to dismiss conspiracy theories and their proponents out of hand but I wanted to take the opposite approach, to see how these conspiracies might be possible. To do that, I looked at the vital requirement for a viable conspiracy-secrecy."

His theory is based on the notion that a certain number of people can keep a secret only for a limited amount of time. The more people involved, the less time it remains a secret. His equation takes into account the probability of a conspiracy being accidently revealed or deliberately leaked by a whistle-blower. It was informed by evidence from real conspiracies, including Edward Snowden’s exposure of the NSA Prism project. Dr Grimes says that a plot to fake the moon landings would have been revealed in three years, eight months and a climate change conspiracy would have leaked in three years, nine months.

The research also scrutinised medical conspiracies. A vaccination conspiracy would have emerged in three years and two months, Dr Grimes claims, and a suppressed cancer cure would be exposed in three years and three months. For conspiracies that do not require active maintenance, there are various factors involved in the calculation: the number of plotters, the length of time, and the effects of conspirators dying. Dr Grimes added: "A number of conspiracy theories revolve around science. While believing the moon landings were faked may not be harmful, believing misinformation about vaccines can be fatal. However, not every belief in a conspiracy is necessarily wrong - for example, the Snowden revelations confirmed some theories about the activities of the US National Security Agency.

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/faked-moon-landing-would-have-been-exposed-within-four-years-scientist-concludes-a6835721.html

by Guest Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:54 am

4 years maybe in America but the rest of the world would have known in less than 4 hours ,

because if the Russians could prove it was all an American lie (and they could have done ) it would have been all over the news at the time

Capricorn one has a lot to answer for !!!!

by Guest Wed Jan 27, 2016 1:08 pm

The Russians have claimed it was fake
So on that count they failed also

by eddie Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:22 pm

A man concludes that secrets can't be kept for more than four years, using "maths" so we should discount anything ever being a kept a secret then.

Yeah. Rightio Rolling Eyes

by Guest Wed Jan 27, 2016 5:59 pm

eddie wrote:A man concludes that secrets can't be kept for more than four years, using "maths" so we should discount anything ever being a kept a secret then.

Yeah. Rightio

Okay Eddie am going to help you here
How often do people where they attempt to keep something from someone, when say 5-10 people know of this also, gets kept hidden?
And hidden for how long?
If more people know, does that then increase the risk it will be found out?

by eddie Wed Jan 27, 2016 6:51 pm

Didge wrote:
eddie wrote:A man concludes that secrets can't be kept for more than four years, using "maths" so we should discount anything ever being a kept a secret then.

Yeah. Rightio

Okay Eddie am going to help you here
How often do people where they attempt to keep something from someone, when say 5-10 people know of this also, gets kept hidden?
And hidden for how long?
If more people know, does that then increase the risk it will be found out?

In most of the "conspiracy" cases lots of people die
That's just one theory l

And who says a lot of people would know about any cover ups?

by Guest Wed Jan 27, 2016 7:01 pm

eddie wrote:
Didge wrote:

Okay Eddie am going to help you here
How often do people where they attempt to keep something from someone, when say 5-10 people know of this also, gets kept hidden?
And hidden for how long?
If more people know, does that then increase the risk it will be found out?

In most of the "conspiracy" cases lots of people die
That's just one theory l

And who says a lot of people would know about any cover ups?

That did not answer what was asked Eddie

To pull off many things, even war time secrets a set number of people have to know.
For people to die and the complexity of pulling off say 9/11 would involve thousands.
For example look at the NSA where Snowden, had the evidence to back what was going on, leaving no choice but for the US to admit what had been going on. He was one of thousands to have worked for the NSA and he was not the only one to speak out.
You are basing a claim on people being comparative to the Loyalty on a par with how many nazis were loyal to Hitler say. To have people remain silent to a cover up of 9/11. Not only this with Snowden spelt the doom of the 9/11 conspiracies, as he led the charge as the whistle blower to the mother load of many secrets and yet never claimed 9/11 was an inside job. What he stated was where the US failed to react to the signs of an impending attack from intelligence. If anything he proved, the US intelligence service was negligent not to follow up on strong leads

by Tommy Monk Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:12 pm

Speculation Dodge...

by Guest Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:23 pm

With Snowden?
I do not think so Tommy
He is the one person who should have given the conspiracies 9/11 truthers what they wanted as he exposed a conspiracy theory and he had access to thousands of secret files.
That is why more than anything he would not have hesitated at all if the US was had carried out the attack or even Israel. I mean the theories on 9/11 are far fetched and weak to say the least and base more off peoples paranoia, where they continually ignore countless facts. He placed the final nail in the coffin to the 9/11 conspiracy and yet people are still easily misled by the so called ~~Truthers~~ fibbers.

by Guest Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:04 pm

Didge wrote:With Snowden?
I do not think so Tommy
He is the one person who should have given the conspiracies 9/11 truthers what they wanted as he exposed a conspiracy theory and he had access to thousands of secret files.
That is why more than anything he would not have hesitated at all if the US was had carried out the attack or even Israel. I mean the theories on 9/11 are far fetched and weak to say the least and base more off peoples paranoia, where they continually ignore countless facts. He placed the final nail in the coffin to the 9/11 conspiracy and yet people are still easily misled by the so called ~~Truthers~~ fibbers.

No not really
secret files yes the thing about secret is that`s not the highest classification
snowden had access to yes some pretty top secret cables but not the highest classified files as things as above purposed would need to be no
that isn`t to say 9/11 truths are not completely of there rocker ....but they are completely off it and two county`s north as well

by Guest Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:08 pm

korban dallas wrote:
Didge wrote:With Snowden?
I do not think so Tommy
He is the one person who should have given the conspiracies 9/11 truthers what they wanted as he exposed a conspiracy theory and he had access to thousands of secret files.
That is why more than anything he would not have hesitated at all if the US was had carried out the attack or even Israel. I mean the theories on 9/11 are far fetched and weak to say the least and base more off peoples paranoia, where they continually ignore countless facts. He placed the final nail in the coffin to the 9/11 conspiracy and yet people are still easily misled by the so called ~~Truthers~~ fibbers.
No not really
secret files yes the thing about secret is that`s not the highest classification
snowden had access to yes some pretty top secret cables but not the highest classified files as things as above purposed would need to be no
that isn`t to say 9/11 truths are not completely of there rocker ....but they are completely off it and two county`s north as well

Yes really, he spilled the beans about the US having intel on the bombers themselves and how they failed to act and were negligent.
So yes he did have access to many files, of which the full extent is not fully know of all of them.

In March 2014, Army General Martin Dempsey, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told the House Armed Services Committee, "The vast majority of the documents that Snowden ... exfiltrated from our highest levels of security had nothing to do with exposing government oversight of domestic activities. The vast majority of those were related to our military capabilities, operations, tactics, techniques and procedures."

When retired NSA director Keith Alexander was asked in a May 2014 interview to quantify the number of documents Snowden stole, Alexander answered, "I don't think anybody really knows what he actually took with him, because the way he did it, we don't have an accurate way of counting. What we do have an accurate way of counting is what he touched, what he may have downloaded, and that was more than a million documents

by Guest Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:17 pm

Didge wrote:
korban dallas wrote:
No not really
secret files yes the thing about secret is that`s not the highest classification
snowden had access to yes some pretty top secret cables but not the highest classified files as things as above purposed would need to be no
that isn`t to say 9/11 truths are not completely of there rocker ....but they are completely off it and two county`s north as well

Yes really, he spilled the beans about the US having intel on the bombers themselves and how they failed to act and were negligent.
So yes he did have access to many files, of which the full extent is not fully know of all of them.

In March 2014, Army General Martin Dempsey, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told the House Armed Services Committee, "The vast majority of the documents that Snowden ... exfiltrated from our highest levels of security had nothing to do with exposing government oversight of domestic activities. The vast majority of those were related to our military capabilities, operations, tactics, techniques and procedures."

When retired NSA director Keith Alexander was asked in a May 2014 interview to quantify the number of documents Snowden stole, Alexander answered, "I don't think anybody really knows what he actually took with him, because the way he did it, we don't have an accurate way of counting. What we do have an accurate way of counting is what he touched, what he may have downloaded, and that was more than a million documents

No not really
As you just said MANY files not ALL the files ,so your premise he was the one person who could give 9/11 conspiracy theorists what they want is incorrect as he in all likelihood not have access via cables to what would be considered if true
1 mass murder
2 treason
3 attempt to justify a invasion

if you seriously believe that that kind of information or plan would be written down and held on a government server that ANY government or the declassification of in years to come may uncover then you are completely off your rocker

by eddie Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:20 pm

It doesn't take thousands to pull off a major event like 9/11.
the Muslims apparently didn't need thousands.

by Guest Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:22 pm

eddie wrote:It doesn't take thousands to pull off a major event like 9/11.
the ~~Muslims~~ Terrorists apparently didn't need thousands.

come on eddie Faked Moon landing would have been exposed within four years, scientist concludes 2396444674

by Guest Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:26 pm

korban dallas wrote:
Didge wrote:

Yes really, he spilled the beans about the US having intel on the bombers themselves and how they failed to act and were negligent.
So yes he did have access to many files, of which the full extent is not fully know of all of them.

In March 2014, Army General Martin Dempsey, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, told the House Armed Services Committee, "The vast majority of the documents that Snowden ... exfiltrated from our highest levels of security had nothing to do with exposing government oversight of domestic activities. The vast majority of those were related to our military capabilities, operations, tactics, techniques and procedures."

When retired NSA director Keith Alexander was asked in a May 2014 interview to quantify the number of documents Snowden stole, Alexander answered, "I don't think anybody really knows what he actually took with him, because the way he did it, we don't have an accurate way of counting. What we do have an accurate way of counting is what he touched, what he may have downloaded, and that was more than a million documents
No not really
As you just said MANY files not ALL the files ,so your premise he was the one person who could give 9/11 conspiracy theorists what they want is incorrect as he in all likelihood not have access via cables to what would be considered if true
1 mass murder
2 treason
3 attempt to justify a invasion

if you seriously believe that that kind of information or plan would be written down and held on a government server that ANY government or the declassification of in years to come may uncover then you are completely off your rocker

Yes really
He already had access to many secret files and where already has has made view on 9/11 clearly he had access to files on this so would have been fully in the know of what was going on. What you are trying to tell me is how there would not be files connecting this if it was a cover up, which would be bonkers, as fundamentally members of the NSA would have needed to have been involved for this to have been pulled off to collated and frame false evidence, which would then have been know within the NSA. Can you not see that point? This would have also been documented and on files. I think you watched to many films mate lol and I mean that in the nicest not piss take way

Snowden:

“You know, and this is a key question that the 9/11 Commission considered. And what they found, in the post-mortem, when they looked at all of the classified intelligence from all of the different intelligence agencies, they found that we had all of the information we needed as an intelligence community, as a classified sector, as the national defense of the United States to detect this plot,” Snowden said. “We actually had records of the phone calls from the United States and out. The CIA knew who these guys were. The problem was not that we weren’t collecting information, it wasn’t that we didn’t have enough dots, it wasn’t that we didn’t have a haystack, it was that we did not understand the haystack that we have.”

“The problem with mass surveillance is that we’re piling more hay on a haystack we already don’t understand, and this is the haystack of the human lives of every American citizen in our country,” Snowden continued. “If these programs aren’t keeping us safe, and they’re making us miss connections — vital connections — on information we already have, if we’re taking resources away from traditional methods of investigation, from law enforcement operations that we know work, if we’re missing things like the Boston Marathon bombings where all of these mass surveillance systems, every domestic dragnet in the world didn’t reveal guys that the Russian intelligence service told us about by name, is that really the best way to protect our country? Or are we — are we trying to throw money at a magic solution that’s actually not just costing us our safety, but our rights and our way of life?

by Guest Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:38 pm

yes of course you know everything sorry my mistake

tell you what as a person who "was" cleared to top secret (on a need to know basis )
who is well aware of how and what restrictions are placed on the very highest classification of documents let me say your talking rubbish

they are many classified documents that would just not be stored on a electronic system that snowden had no access to ,or are you telling me he had access to nuclear launch codes as well

Morover if you think some domestic government agency or actor would keep a record of such a plan anywhere then your insane

i don`t expect you to admit it but you have know idea what the hell your talking about

ps
as you keep saying MANY thats NOT ALL

by Guest Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:42 pm

So where I make it light hearted you take it personal again

Quelle surprise

maybe you can tell me how a intelligence service that monitors everyone, is then not going to have intel on all those involved in such a cover up, even if they were not involved?
Seriously? They would pick up intelligence on this

So again he is a person with access and the means to access highly secret information, the point you miss.

Considering again as part of studying history I have study around intelligence in conflicts, i think I know what I am talking about

by Fuzzy Zack Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:43 pm

This theory might prove the moon landings were fake but it also proves that 9/11 was an inside job as it took a lot less than 125 people to coordinate.

by Guest Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:44 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:This theory might prove the moon landings were fake but it also proves that 9/11 was an inside job as it took a lot less than 125 people to coordinate.

Faked Moon landing would have been exposed within four years, scientist concludes 3489511464

Based on what gibberish is that?

by Fuzzy Zack Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:48 pm

As for the so called Moon landing, they sent an un-manned craft with a radio transceiver to fake signals that were actually redirected from Earth.

That's why they fooled the Russians and poor old Patrick Moore.

And the video footage was staged in the Nevada desert.

by Guest Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:49 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:As for the so called Moon landing, they sent an un-manned craft with a radio transceiver to fake signals that were actually redirected from Earth.

That's why they fooled the Russians and poor old Patrick Moore.

And the video footage was staged in the Nevada desert.

by Guest Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:52 pm

As famous English writer Alan Moore once said, “The most important thing that I have ever learned about the conspiracy theories, is that conspiracy theorists believe in a conspiracy because that is more comforting for them. The truth of the world is that it is chaotic. Not the Jewish banks, The Illuminati, and not even the Grey Aliens are in control.
The truth is far more frightening – nobody is in control. The world is rudderless.”

by Guest Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:52 pm

Didge wrote:So where I make it light hearted you take it personal again

Quelle surprise

maybe you can tell me how a intelligence service that monitors everyone, is then not going to have intel on all those involved in such a cover up, even if they were not involved?
Seriously? They would pick up intelligence on this

So again he is a person with access and the means to access highly secret information, the point you miss.

Considering again as part of studying history I have study around intelligence in conflicts, i think I know what I am talking about

oh dear !! not pre 9/11 they would`t no way near as much intelligence gathering

plus that`s the same as asking the fox to guard the chicken coop

if the people in high government are the ones planning this as they believe sweeping it under the carpet is easy
plus you don`t write it down i can not stress that enough you don`t write it down
unless your a stupid terrorist

Jeeze

by Guest Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:53 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:As for the so called Moon landing, they sent an un-manned craft with a radio transceiver to fake signals that were actually redirected from Earth.

That's why they fooled the Russians and poor old Patrick Moore.

And the video footage was staged in the Nevada desert.

Faked Moon landing would have been exposed within four years, scientist concludes 1794926327

by Guest Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:57 pm

korban dallas wrote:
Didge wrote:So where I make it light hearted you take it personal again

Quelle surprise

maybe you can tell me how a intelligence service that monitors everyone, is then not going to have intel on all those involved in such a cover up, even if they were not involved?
Seriously? They would pick up intelligence on this

So again he is a person with access and the means to access highly secret information, the point you miss.

Considering again as part of studying history I have study around intelligence in conflicts, i think I know what I am talking about
oh dear !! not pre 9/11 they would`t no way near as much intelligence gathering

plus that`s the same as asking the fox to guard the chicken coop

if the people in high government are the ones planning this as they believe sweeping it under the carpet is easy
plus you don`t write it down i can not stress that enough you don`t write it down
unless your a stupid terrorist

And again you cannot answer my points on every single post and show even more you are emotional compromised
Sorry you just look for the fight in debates so may I suggest something more fitting like rag doll, as that will be more down to your level.
You are not that savvy but technically intelligent, like I say a complete shelden lol
Again it takes far more than some people at the top to implement such a plan, that involves a claim to explosives in many buildings, missiles, planes, passengers vanishing, air traffic controls, pilots and all this going on and you are telling me the NSA pick up the terrorists that carry this out but not anything from the people involved with them within the Government?.

Dude you watch too many films

by Guest Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:01 pm

Didge wrote:
korban dallas wrote:
oh dear !! not pre 9/11 they would`t no way near as much intelligence gathering

plus that`s the same as asking the fox to guard the chicken coop

if the people in high government are the ones planning this as they believe sweeping it under the carpet is easy
plus you don`t write it down i can not stress that enough you don`t write it down
unless your a stupid terrorist

And again you cannot answer my points on every single post and show even more you are emotional compromised
Sorry you just look for the fight in debates so may I suggest something more fitting like rag doll, as that will be more down to your level.
You are not that savvy but technically intelligent, like I say a complete shelden lol
Again it takes far more than some people at the top to implement such a plan, that involves a claim to explosives in many buildings, missiles, planes, passengers vanishing, air traffic controls, pilots and all this going on and you are telling me the NSA pick up the terrorists that carry this out but not anything from the people involved with them within the Government?.

Dude you watch too many films

OFFS

dude just ....forget it

by eddie Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:34 pm

korban dallas wrote:
eddie wrote:It doesn't take thousands to pull off a major event like 9/11.
the ~~Muslims~~ Terrorists apparently didn't need thousands.
come on eddie

I say it loosely and sarcastically
That obviously didn't come across

by eddie Wed Jan 27, 2016 10:35 pm

KD are you saying that it's entirely possible to only have a few very top secret people know something huge?

by Guest Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:07 pm

eddie wrote:KD are you saying that it's entirely possible to only have a few very top secret people know something huge?

yea of course it is all it takes is like minded people and it doesn`t need to be a huge amount of people

by Guest Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:10 pm

eddie wrote:
korban dallas wrote:
come on eddie

I say it loosely and sarcastically
That obviously didn't come across

Ah try "Muslims" in speech marks, that puts the "sarcastic" inflection and modifies the sentence as per your intention

"ok " lol!

by veya_victaous Wed Jan 27, 2016 11:48 pm

korban dallas wrote:yes of course you know everything sorry my mistake

tell you what as a person who "was" cleared to top secret (on a need to know basis )
who is well aware of how and what restrictions are placed on the very highest classification of documents let me say your talking rubbish

they are many classified documents that would just not be stored on a electronic system that snowden had no access to ,or are you telling me he had access to nuclear launch codes as well

Morover if you think some domestic government agency or actor would keep a record of such a plan anywhere then your insane

i don`t expect you to admit it but you have know idea what the hell your talking about

ps
as you keep saying MANY thats NOT ALL

the point about electronic systems is accurate even in education the level is pretty high, no one has all the keys. I know because i hold one of the locks, which is another point, there are several locked gates with people and machines watching the keys used.
And I say I hold the lock cause i can access the file management stuff but not the content, and vice versa, people that can access the content cannot access the file management. Purposely built in 2 streams.

and that is just basic stuff... like you say the odds of any plan of more insidious nature being properly documented is near zero..

by Eilzel Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:46 am

9/11

If it was Muslim extremists (which it was), then sure only a few were needed. They hijack the planes, crash them, end of story.

For the popular conspiracies the numbers are immense.

Who planted the bombs?
Who cut the beams?
Did anyone in WTC see this happening in the period prior to the attack?
Who fired the missile/orb?
Who knew about the military plane?
People working for United Airlines (who would know of their plane existed or not and if it went missing).
Al-Qaeda and associates?
The people who 'pulled' WTC7.
The News agencies.

And so on and so on...

People in all these catagories would know if something was up whether they were involved or not. 15 years on it is ridiculous to think no one would have come out with anything of substance.

by Guest Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:52 am

Eilzel wrote:9/11

If it was Muslim extremists (which it was), then sure only a few were needed. They hijack the planes, crash them, end of story.

For the popular conspiracies the numbers are immense.

Who planted the bombs?
Who cut the beams?
Did anyone in WTC see this happening in the period prior to the attack?
Who fired the missile/orb?
Who knew about the military plane?
People working for United Airlines (who would know of their plane existed or not and if it went missing).
Al-Qaeda and associates?
The people who 'pulled' WTC7.
The News agencies.

And so on and so on...

People in all these catagories would know if something was up whether they were involved or not. 15 years on it is ridiculous to think no one would have come out with anything of substance.

Exactaly Occam's razor

by Irn Bru Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:01 am

veya_victaous wrote:
korban dallas wrote:yes of course you know everything sorry my mistake

tell you what as a person who "was" cleared to top secret (on a need to know basis )
who is well aware of how and what restrictions are placed on the very highest classification of documents let me say your talking rubbish

they are many classified documents that would just not be stored on a electronic system that snowden had no access to ,or are you telling me he had access to nuclear launch codes as well

Morover if you think some domestic government agency or actor would keep a record of such a plan anywhere then your insane

i don`t expect you to admit it but you have know idea what the hell your talking about

ps
as you keep saying MANY thats NOT ALL
the point about electronic systems is accurate even in education the level is pretty high, no one has all the keys. I know because i hold one of the locks, which is another point, there are several locked gates with people and machines watching the keys used.
And I say I hold the lock cause i can access the file management stuff but not the content, and vice versa, people that can access the content cannot access the file management. Purposely built in 2 streams.

and that is just basic stuff... like you say the odds of any plan of more insidious nature being properly documented is near zero..

That's true Veya and no one person has access to everything. That's just basic rules in protecting highly classified data.

Stuff at the very highest level on national security measures isn't even held elecronically either and access to it in the UK is through the Cabinet Office itself.

by Irn Bru Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:03 am

What we know about who committed the 9/11 attacks is well documented and it was all those identified.

by veya_victaous Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:09 am

Eilzel wrote:9/11

If it was Muslim extremists (which it was), then sure only a few were needed. They hijack the planes, crash them, end of story.

For the popular conspiracies the numbers are immense.

Who planted the bombs?
Who cut the beams?
Did anyone in WTC see this happening in the period prior to the attack?
Who fired the missile/orb?
Who knew about the military plane?
People working for United Airlines (who would know of their plane existed or not and if it went missing).
Al-Qaeda and associates?
The people who 'pulled' WTC7.
The News agencies.

And so on and so on...

People in all these catagories would know if something was up whether they were involved or not. 15 years on it is ridiculous to think no one would have come out with anything of substance.

it is like the moon landing faked ,
the problem is nuts take the legitimate conspiracy and then take it to the ridiculous

9/11 the legit conspiracy is that a small group of terrorists planned and Successfully preformed the attack because security agencies wilfully failed to stop them. it wouldn't be hard and wouldn't require great numbers, just tick the case as investigated and none of the agents would probably look at it. it is possible but more likely just a failure to catch everything.

the Legit moon landing conspiracy is that the footage is faked because at the time there was no signal that could transmit images over that range in real time. Audio would be possible but not footage. And it was deemed necessary for propaganda reason to have both live on TV so basic footage was pre-recorded to be played along side the Real Audio. However in the years that followed the tech became commercially available so it is reasonable for a prototype to be the explanation

by Guest Thu Jan 28, 2016 1:49 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Eilzel wrote:9/11

If it was Muslim extremists (which it was), then sure only a few were needed. They hijack the planes, crash them, end of story.

For the popular conspiracies the numbers are immense.

Who planted the bombs?
Who cut the beams?
Did anyone in WTC see this happening in the period prior to the attack?
Who fired the missile/orb?
Who knew about the military plane?
People working for United Airlines (who would know of their plane existed or not and if it went missing).
Al-Qaeda and associates?
The people who 'pulled' WTC7.
The News agencies.

And so on and so on...

People in all these catagories would know if something was up whether they were involved or not. 15 years on it is ridiculous to think no one would have come out with anything of substance.

it is like the moon landing faked ,
the problem is nuts take the legitimate conspiracy and then take it to the ridiculous

9/11 the legit conspiracy is that a small group of terrorists planned and Successfully preformed the attack because security agencies wilfully failed to stop them. it wouldn't be hard and wouldn't require great numbers, just tick the case as investigated and none of the agents would probably look at it. it is possible but more likely just a failure to catch everything.

the Legit moon landing conspiracy is that the footage is faked because at the time there was no signal that could transmit images over that range in real time. Audio would be possible but not footage. And it was deemed necessary for propaganda reason to have both live on TV so basic footage was pre-recorded to be played along side the Real Audio. However in the years that followed the tech became commercially available so it is reasonable for a prototype to be the explanation

in fact it was a Australian radio telescope, Parkes Observatory that relay`d the first signal

by veya_victaous Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:16 am

@KD
it is a Movie, a funny one

I think I found the full thing

by Guest Thu Jan 28, 2016 12:02 pm

veya_victaous wrote:@KD
it is a Movie, a funny one

I think I found the full thing

one of my favourite movies mate

sure i have it on DVD Smile

by Fuzzy Zack Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:26 pm

Eilzel wrote:9/11

If it was Muslim extremists (which it was), then sure only a few were needed. They hijack the planes, crash them, end of story.

For the popular conspiracies the numbers are immense.

Who planted the bombs?
Who cut the beams?
Did anyone in WTC see this happening in the period prior to the attack?
Who fired the missile/orb?
Who knew about the military plane?
People working for United Airlines (who would know of their plane existed or not and if it went missing).
Al-Qaeda and associates?
The people who 'pulled' WTC7.
The News agencies.

And so on and so on...

People in all these catagories would know if something was up whether they were involved or not. 15 years on it is ridiculous to think no one would have come out with anything of substance.

KSM was a CIA operative and he organised the 19 hijackers and planned 9/11.

Now you may not believe that - but it doesn't take all those people you mentioned. That is obvious.

by Guest Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:29 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Eilzel wrote:9/11

If it was Muslim extremists (which it was), then sure only a few were needed. They hijack the planes, crash them, end of story.

For the popular conspiracies the numbers are immense.

Who planted the bombs?
Who cut the beams?
Did anyone in WTC see this happening in the period prior to the attack?
Who fired the missile/orb?
Who knew about the military plane?
People working for United Airlines (who would know of their plane existed or not and if it went missing).
Al-Qaeda and associates?
The people who 'pulled' WTC7.
The News agencies.

And so on and so on...

People in all these catagories would know if something was up whether they were involved or not. 15 years on it is ridiculous to think no one would have come out with anything of substance.

KSM was a CIA operative and he organised the 19 hijackers and planned 9/11.

Now you may not believe that - but it doesn't take all those people you mentioned. That is obvious.

OMG you really are that gullible to believe anything that you want to believe if it steers away anything from Islamic connection to terrorism.

That is desperation dude and denying the truth, where clearly you are one of those suckered in by poor narratives bashing the west

by Fuzzy Zack Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:35 pm

Didge wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:

KSM was a CIA operative and he organised the 19 hijackers and planned 9/11.

Now you may not believe that - but it doesn't take all those people you mentioned. That is obvious.

OMG you really are that gullible to believe anything that you want to believe if it steers away anything from Islamic connection to terrorism.

That is desperation dude and denying the truth, where clearly you are one of those suckered in by poor narratives bashing the west

Calm down and stop being hysterical.

KSM and the 19 hijackers were Muslim. But there is no Islamic connection to terrorism just as no religion has anything to do with terorism.

But that wasn't my point. So try to understand that.

my point: it doesn't take all those groups Les mentioned for the CIA to organise a 9/11 style attack. If you want to reply, address my point. Or don't waste my time.

by Guest Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:42 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Didge wrote:

OMG you really are that gullible to believe anything that you want to believe if it steers away anything from Islamic connection to terrorism.

That is desperation dude and denying the truth, where clearly you are one of those suckered in by poor narratives bashing the west

Calm down and stop being hysterical.

KSM and the 19 hijackers were Muslim. But there is no Islamic connection to terrorism just as no religion has anything to do with terorism.

But that wasn't my point. So try to understand that.

my point: it doesn't take all those groups Les mentioned for the CIA to organise a 9/11 style attack. If you want to reply, address my point. Or don't waste my time.

1) Deflection from a knowingly poor fabrication you made. being as you are a literal believer it is you constantly emotionally compromised on your faith

2) Completely connected to Islam through a belief of Martyrdom, transgression and Jihad.

3) Understand you are gullible to really absurd Muslim narratives that blame the west for problems in the Islamic world?

4) How many people in Al-Qaeda knew of this attack?

5) Eilzel rightly is going off how many people would have needed to have been involved based off the truthers claims to how 9/11 was to them carried out. Which would go into thousands of people being involved. So how about you understand what he was saying dude?

by Fuzzy Zack Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:49 pm

Didge wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Calm down and stop being hysterical.

KSM and the 19 hijackers were Muslim. But there is no Islamic connection to terrorism just as no religion has anything to do with terorism.

But that wasn't my point. So try to understand that.

my point: it doesn't take all those groups Les mentioned for the CIA to organise a 9/11 style attack. If you want to reply, address my point. Or don't waste my time.

1) Deflection from a knowingly poor fabrication you made

2) Completely connected to Islam through a belief of Martyrdom, transgression and Jihad.

3) Understand you are gullible to really absurd Muslim narratives that blame the west for problems in the Islamic world?

4) How many people in Al-Qaeda knew of this attack?

5) Eilzel rightly is going off how many people would have needed to have been involved based off the truthers claims, so how about you understand what he was saying dude?

Only your last 2 points makes a poor attempt to address mine.

4) they work in small cells. So not many beyond the 19.

5) I'm not claiming the conspiracy theories are true. I did prove that you don't need all those organisations to pull off 9/11. Just some black-op division in CIA and KSM. KSM's involvement in the CIA and AQ is a matter of public knowledge, so your attempt to dispute that makes you look rather pathetic. So yes, Les is wrong.

by Guest Thu Jan 28, 2016 2:52 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Didge wrote:

1) Deflection from a knowingly poor fabrication you made

2) Completely connected to Islam through a belief of Martyrdom, transgression and Jihad.

3) Understand you are gullible to really absurd Muslim narratives that blame the west for problems in the Islamic world?

4) How many people in Al-Qaeda knew of this attack?

5) Eilzel rightly is going off how many people would have needed to have been involved based off the truthers claims, so how about you understand what he was saying dude?

Only your last 2 points makes a poor attempt to address mine.

4) they work in small cells. So not many beyond the 19.

5) I'm not claiming the conspiracy theories are true. I did prove that you don't need all those organisations to pull off 9/11. Just some black-op division in CIA and KSM. KSM's involvement in the CIA and AQ is a matter of public knowledge, so your attempt to dispute that makes you look rather pathetic. So yes, Les is wrong.

No I just made you look very inept

You are going off how many people Al-Qaeda needed to carry out the attack

Eilzel went off the claims made by the truthers to how many people would be involved

Read again what he daid

For the popular conspiracies the numbers are immense.

Who planted the bombs?
Who cut the beams?
Did anyone in WTC see this happening in the period prior to the attack?
Who fired the missile/orb?
Who knew about the military plane?
People working for United Airlines (who would know of their plane existed or not and if it went missing).
Al-Qaeda and associates?
The people who 'pulled' WTC7.
The News agencies.

You screwed up when you failed to understand that the above would take thousands to have known or be involved

Post up your evidence to KSM

Islam is fundamentally a driving factor behind why the 9/11 attack was justified and carried out

by Fuzzy Zack Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:38 pm

I'm not accusing you of being stupid Didge but sometimes you stubbornly refuse to understand my point. Just for giggles, it seems.

I agree that thousands would need to have been involved IF ALL THOSE GROUPS WERE INVOLVED.

I'm saying it didn't need all those groups. Just a few in the CIA and a few in AQ.

That's all I'm saying. If you read anymore into what I'm saying then you probably are stupid.

by Fuzzy Zack Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:39 pm

Les, you know what I'm trying to say, right?

by Guest Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:44 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:I'm not accusing you of being stupid Didge but sometimes you stubbornly refuse to understand my point. Just for giggles, it seems.

I agree that thousands would need to have been involved IF ALL THOSE GROUPS WERE INVOLVED.

I'm saying it didn't need all those groups. Just a few in the CIA and a few in AQ.

That's all I'm saying. If you read anymore into what I'm saying then you probably are stupid.

Again it was you that failed to grasp Eilzels point and even now you try to worm out of doing so, when his point was very clear

Based off the points he made, it would take thousands knowing

So you are trying badly to get out of your mistake, because if you think it would only take a few people then you are clearly not able to grasp the extent of people required to pull off the claims

by Fuzzy Zack Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:47 pm

Didge wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:I'm not accusing you of being stupid Didge but sometimes you stubbornly refuse to understand my point. Just for giggles, it seems.

I agree that thousands would need to have been involved IF ALL THOSE GROUPS WERE INVOLVED.

I'm saying it didn't need all those groups. Just a few in the CIA and a few in AQ.

That's all I'm saying. If you read anymore into what I'm saying then you probably are stupid.

Again it was you that failed to grasp Eilzels point and even now you try to worm out of doing so, when his point was very clear

Based off the points he made, it would take thousands knowing

So you are trying badly to get out of your mistake, because if you think it would only take a few people then you are clearly not able to grasp the extent of people required to pull off the claims

Maybe understanding plain English is a problem for you.

As my initial post was addressed to Les, I'll let him reply. You're clearly not understanding my point.

If you want to reply, then try understanding what I'm saying. Don't pretend.

by Guest Thu Jan 28, 2016 3:48 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Didge wrote:

Again it was you that failed to grasp Eilzels point and even now you try to worm out of doing so, when his point was very clear

Based off the points he made, it would take thousands knowing

So you are trying badly to get out of your mistake, because if you think it would only take a few people then you are clearly not able to grasp the extent of people required to pull off the claims
Maybe understanding plain English is a problem for you.

As my initial post was addressed to Les, I'll let him reply. You're clearly not understanding my point.

If you want to reply, then try understanding what I'm saying. Don't pretend.

1) Deflection again and emotive

2) he will say the same as me, wanna bet?

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