Could letting someone kill an endangered black rhino help save the species?

I have to say, I find this a remarkable quandary:

The Dallas Safari Club knows how to bring in the new year with a bang.

On Jan. 11, a rare permit to hunt and kill an endangered black rhino will be sold in Dallas to the highest bidder.

As the organization moves forward with the auction to raise as much as $1 million to help preserve the near-extinct double-horned rhinoceros, worldwide attention — and outrage over the plan to allow the killing of one animal to save the waning species — is focused on the effort.

“There has been a wide range of reaction,” said Ben Carter, executive director of the Dallas Safari Club. “There’s a lot of people out there, frankly, that are totally without any knowledge of how wildlife and conservation works.

“We’ve gotten emails, phone calls,” he said. “One email said, ‘If you auction off a permit to kill a rhino, we are going to kill you and your family.’ ”

But Carter said he and others know that selling the permit — the first to be sold in the United States allowing the hunting of one black rhino in Namibia — could make a better future for the critically endangered animals.

“This is a great opportunity to do something we are all going to be proud about,” Carter said. “It would be a terrible travesty to not have black rhinos roaming in their natural habitat. We hope they’ll be around for a long time to come.”

http://www.star-telegram.com/2013/12/22/5435606/dallas-auction-for-the-right-to.html

I don't     

Shoot the highest bidder take half their wealth and use it to protect and restore Rhino populations take the other half and use it help the economy, cure cancer or something. lets face it someone that can pay 1 million buck to murder an endangered animal is gonna have more than enough to make a useful difference to 2 causes, and the world both humans and animals (probably plants as well) would be better off with out that kind of monster at all let alone with that sort of wealth.

VIVA LA REVOLUTION  ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: 

a few weeks back I saw some photo's of a woman who had shot some animals and posted up pictures of herself posing with the bodies.one particular photo was of a beautiful male lion,what this woman didn't realise was that she had condemed to death all young lions in that males pride. if the pride loses it's male leader the next male will kill all of the young lions so he can mate with the females and produce his own offspring.

@nicko
I know the one you are talking about and I hate to make you more mad/sad     

But the lion she shot was hand raised, it did not even know to fear humans it had been feed by them all its life. And to make it even more sickening the lion is actually from a captive breeding program that says it is raising them to release into the wild, good meaning people pay money to go and holiday in the lion raising resort being told that the money they pay is feeding the lions (many of these is quite literally you just bought half a cow now lets hand feed these cute little lion cubs). Then When the Lion reaches and age where it no longer cute and safe handle by inexperienced people, when it is supposed to be released into the wild, it is sold to these 'canned hunting' operators who then charge rich assholes to murder it.

there is even more horrors, like they take the lion cubs away from the mothers as soon as they can (normally days) for the same reason that the male lion would kill them so the lioness come on heat again and they can breed her. they basically factory breed the lionesses forcing them to have litter after litter when normally they would have 1 maybe 2 litters a year, they are forced to have 4 or more, this greatly reduces their life span.. not that their quality of life is anything, being farmer like factory hens         

nicko wrote:
a few weeks back I saw some photo's of a woman who had shot some animals and posted up pictures of herself posing with the bodies.one particular photo was of a beautiful male lion,what this woman didn't realise was that she had condemed to death all young lions in that males pride. if the pride loses it's male leader the next male will kill all of the young lions so he can mate with the females and produce his own offspring.

  

YOU CAN find relevant discussions and protests online about her, I saw it on the GetUp!, SumofUs and Care2Causes websites a month or two back...

I added my signature to a couple of those protests, and posted links onto Facebook, at the time..

NO DOUBT a few more of the activist, liberationist and preservationist 'sites have carried it since as well.

veya_victaous wrote:I don't     

Shoot the highest bidder take half their wealth and use it to protect and restore Rhino populations take the other half and use it help the economy, cure cancer or something. lets face it someone that can pay 1 million buck to murder an endangered animal is gonna have more than enough to make a useful difference to 2 causes, and the world both humans and animals (probably plants as well) would be better off with out that kind of monster at all let alone with that sort of wealth.

VIVA LA REVOLUTION  ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: 

  

THAT definitely sounds like a plan !

veya_victaous wrote:I don't     

Shoot the highest bidder take half their wealth and use it to protect and restore Rhino populations take the other half and use it help the economy, cure cancer or something. lets face it someone that can pay 1 million buck to murder an endangered animal is gonna have more than enough to make a useful difference to 2 causes, and the world both humans and animals (probably plants as well) would be better off with out that kind of monster at all let alone with that sort of wealth.

VIVA LA REVOLUTION  ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: 

I'm with you on that one, why can't they just give their money to save the rhino?   We give money to Children in Need, we don't ask to shoot a child!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'm with you. The story about the lion brings tears.

Now, now. Let's look at this with our celebrated cognitive complexity, shall we? If the rhino to be hunted is beyond reproductive age, is it such a crime to let someone hunt it, if the money can save the rest of them? I honestly would say that the only problem I'd have with that is the notion that it could make some people think killing endangered species was something cool that rich people do.

If it raises money to conserve the species, it's at least a little good. I just don't know that I agree with the bait part of the equation.

Ah, what the hell am I saying?

VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!!!!!!  ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan:

“We’ve gotten emails, phone calls,” he said. “One email said, ‘If you auction off a permit to kill a rhino, we are going to kill you and your family.’ ”

I find it hilarious how these psychopaths think that threatening to murder someone and their family makes them better than someone hunting an animal.

Which one's the psycho again?
I like the idea of shooting the highest bidder but only after a long chase.

Vintage wrote:Which one's the psycho again?
I like the idea of shooting the highest bidder but only after a long chase.

Oh sorry, I forgot making death threats against innocent people is okay if they're hunting animals.

Vintage wrote:Which one's the psycho again?
I like the idea of shooting the highest bidder but only after a long chase.

Do you take sadistic pleasure from the suffering and death from your fellow humans?

If they take pleasure in killing animals, yes.

Sassy wrote:If they take pleasure in killing animals, yes.

Yeah because enjoying murdering your fellow man makes you a lot better than people who enjoy hunting for sport.
Oh wait, no sorry, it makes you a psychopath.

If someone hurts an animal they deserve everything they get. Hurting and animal is like hurting a baby, they can't fight back and are vunerable. Anyone prepared to do that is subhuman and deserves no sympathy as all.

Sassy wrote:If someone hurts an animal they deserve everything they get.  Hurting and animal is like hurting a baby, they can't fight back and are vunerable.   Anyone prepared to do that is subhuman and deserves no sympathy as all.  

The western world isn't where you want to be living if you want to dispense your vigilante justice.

I personally enjoy living in a country governed by law and order.

I think Knave you will find mine is a practical solution,  :::grouch::  it kills 2 birds with 1 stone, we save the Rhino And do something else good, all for the minimal suffering. 1 person maybe 1 family for the saving of an entire species and a decent amount of good to mankind.

Societies used to governed by some founding principals like, "the suffering of the few for the good of the many". Personally I think the worlds right to view a majestic animal such as the Rhino eclipses the supposed right to kill an endangered animal awarded merely because we can pony up the most dollars. I am more than happy to say that individual is Evil, the entire way they view life is evil and the Planet would be better off without them.

Murder is okay if the victim does something I don't like!
.

Well that is why Criminals get executed. I am of course talking about a state sanctioned killing so it wouldn't be Murder.... No more so than a French King in Guillotine   

Forgot to Add

VIVA LA REVOLUTION   ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan:: ::sexbnan:: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan:

Ben_Reilly wrote:Now, now. Let's look at this with our celebrated cognitive complexity, shall we? If the rhino to be hunted is beyond reproductive age, is it such a crime to let someone hunt it, if the money can save the rest of them? I honestly would say that the only problem I'd have with that is the notion that it could make some people think killing endangered species was something cool that rich people do.

If it raises money to conserve the species, it's at least a little good. I just don't know that I agree with the bait part of the equation.

Ah, what the hell am I saying?

VIVA LA REVOLUTION!!!!!!!  ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan:

I used to have so queries about the plausibility of this strategy until I look at things like Canned Hunting (and hundreds of other examples in Capitalist societies, not all related to animals) and realised Someone WILL abused it for money. Before long we will have factory Rhinos Being Force bred to sustain the murder tourism industry. Fuck there are men in suits happy to starve Human Babies if they make a buck, what sympathy will they have for a Rhino calf if its death will get them higher on the Alter of the Almighty Dollar?

veya_victaous wrote:I think Knave you will find mine is a practical solution,  :::grouch::  it kills 2 birds with 1 stone, we save the Rhino And do something else good, all for the minimal suffering. 1 person maybe 1 family for the saving of an entire species and a decent amount of good to mankind.

Societies used to governed by some founding principals like, "the suffering of the few for the good of the many". Personally I think the worlds right to view a majestic animal such as the Rhino eclipses the supposed right to kill an endangered animal awarded merely because we can pony up the most dollars. I am more than happy to say that individual is Evil, the entire way they view life is evil and the Planet would be better off without them.

You don't get the murder someone and take their money just because you personally think you can put it to better use.

veya_victaous wrote:

Murder is okay if the victim does something I don't like!
.

Well that is why Criminals get executed. I am of course talking about a state sanctioned killing so it wouldn't be Murder.... No more so than a French King in  Guillotine   

I don't support the death penalty, no-one has the right to decide if someone else lives or dies.

Isn't the hunter giving the rhino the death penalty, and in it's case it has committed no crime.   Why is human life worth more than animal life.   Have you ever seen elephants mourning when one of them dies?   What gives us the right to say our lives are worth more?   Isn't someone who says that want to kill something enough to pay to do so committing a moral crime?

Knave Of Spades wrote:

I don't support the death penalty, no-one has the right to decide if someone else lives or dies.

You do on entire species. Don't try and play the high moral card, the are nilly 7 billion Humans on the planet and only a couple of hundred Rhino. Some fuck wit wants to pay to murder them fuck that. Why does the that person have the right to kill an entire species? Because they can pay? If that what you believe fine. But I think that is a shithouse reason, at least my reason for killing 1 individual is self less I wont gain anything from it.
But you would let them murder and endangered animal fro money so don't pretend you wouldn't let them murder humans if they paid enough.

Sorry I think that things OTHER than money are of Value too, we don't all have accepted people fucking up the world just because they have a higher number in their bank account.

Knave Of Spades wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:I think Knave you will find mine is a practical solution,  :::grouch::  it kills 2 birds with 1 stone, we save the Rhino And do something else good, all for the minimal suffering. 1 person maybe 1 family for the saving of an entire species and a decent amount of good to mankind.

Societies used to governed by some founding principals like, "the suffering of the few for the good of the many". Personally I think the worlds right to view a majestic animal such as the Rhino eclipses the supposed right to kill an endangered animal awarded merely because we can pony up the most dollars. I am more than happy to say that individual is Evil, the entire way they view life is evil and the Planet would be better off without them.

You don't get the murder someone and take their money just because you personally think you can put it to better use.

veya_victaous wrote:


Well that is why Criminals get executed. I am of course talking about a state sanctioned killing so it wouldn't be Murder.... No more so than a French King in  Guillotine   

I don't support the death penalty, no-one has the right to decide if someone else lives or dies.

  

YOU have stated that same coward's cop-out/anarchist view a few times before now, as i recall, "Knave of Spades"...

Somebody wants to kill a Rhino', Hippo', Tiger, Lion, etc. or any other endangered non-food species purely for the sport, and not for any good and sound reason ~ why should that person have the right to life, by your misbegotten standards ?

IF somebody were threatening you or a friend or family member, or even an innocent nearby, then you will happily let them, would you ?
IF you make an exception for your own self defence, in taking another life then you have effectively then NULLIFIED your claim !     

IF you are prepared to stand back and let others die because of your perverted policy, then that makes you a coward.
IF you are prepared to defend yourself but not innocent and endangered animals, then you are a "speciesist' bigot.
IF you are prepared to let sociopaths, murderers, psycho's continue to kill people (and animals for fun..) because you DON'T support support them being killed in turn ~ then you will share their guilt over those murders.   

YOUR stated position on the death penalty and justified killings is unsound and ill-thought-through on the whole, Knave'..

DO YOU eat meat, Knave' ?
WHAT about the idea that plants have a low level of "sentience" ?

MAYBE you should consider giving up eating, all together, as well...  

Beekeeper wrote:

Knave Of Spades wrote:
You don't get the murder someone and take their money just because you personally think you can put it to better use.



I don't support the death penalty, no-one has the right to decide if someone else lives or dies.

  

YOU have stated that same coward's cop-out/anarchist view a few times before now, as i recall, "Knave of Spades"...

Somebody wants to kill a Rhino', Hippo', Tiger, Lion, etc. or any other endangered non-food species purely for the sport, and not for any good and sound reason ~ why should that person have the right to life, by your misbegotten standards ?

IF somebody were threatening you or a friend or family member, or even an innocent nearby, then you will happily let them, would you ?
IF you make an exception for your own self defence, in taking another life then you have effectively then NULLIFIED your claim !     

IF you are prepared to stand back and let others die because of your perverted policy, then that makes you a coward.
IF you are prepared to defend yourself but not innocent and endangered animals, then you are a "speciesist' bigot.
IF you are prepared to let sociopaths, murderers, psycho's continue to kill people (and animals for fun..) because you DON'T support support them being killed in turn ~ then you will share their guilt over those murders.     

YOUR stated position on the death penalty and justified killings is unsound and ill-thought-through on the whole, Knave'..

DO YOU eat meat, Knave' ?
WHAT about the idea that plants have a low level of "sentience" ?

MAYBE you should consider giving up eating, all together, as well...  

What a fucking retarded post.
So because I don't support freaks making death threats behind their computer screens and decreeing who gets to live and die that must mean I don't support people defending themselves?
It means I endorse murder and threats?
That means I can't eat meat?

Jesus Christ get your fucking head out of your ass you self-righteous fuck. I don't support the death penalty and I don't support people sitting in high positions getting to decree who lives and dies like a totalitarian sociopath.

veya_victaous wrote:

Knave Of Spades wrote:

I don't support the death penalty, no-one has the right to decide if someone else lives or dies.

You do on entire species. Don't try and play the high moral card, the are nilly 7 billion Humans on the planet and only a couple of hundred Rhino. Some fuck wit wants to pay to murder them fuck that. Why does the that person have the right to kill an entire species? Because they can pay? If that what you  believe fine. But I think that is a shithouse reason, at least my reason for killing 1 individual is self less I wont gain anything from it.
But you would let them murder and endangered animal fro money so don't pretend you wouldn't let them murder humans if they paid enough.

Sorry I think that things OTHER than money are of Value too, we don't all have accepted people fucking up the world just because they have a higher number in their bank account.

Seems to me the person who's trying to justify killing someone and taking their money for "the greater good" is the one playing the moral high card but whatever.
I never said he has the right to kill them now did I? I have simply been complaining about the people making the death threats to the person responsible for making that decision and their family and you trying to say he should be killed and his money taken from him.

Also I love how I'm apparently an anarchist for not supporting executions and death threats being made to people.
Quality fucking logic.

veya_victaous wrote:

Knave Of Spades wrote:

I don't support the death penalty, no-one has the right to decide if someone else lives or dies.

You do on entire species. Don't try and play the high moral card, the are nilly 7 billion Humans on the planet and only a couple of hundred Rhino. Some fuck wit wants to pay to murder them fuck that. Why does the that person have the right to kill an entire species? Because they can pay? If that what you  believe fine. But I think that is a shithouse reason, at least my reason for killing 1 individual is self less I wont gain anything from it.
But you would let them murder and endangered animal fro money so don't pretend you wouldn't let them murder humans if they paid enough.

Sorry I think that things OTHER than money are of Value too, we don't all have accepted people fucking up the world just because they have a higher number in their bank account.

You are still advocating murder to someone as Knave has pointed out and debated with excellence I might add add and it is you using the moral card!

       

Shoot any bastard who wants to shoot an endangered animal and is prepared to pay to do so, scum.

Sassy wrote:       

Shoot any bastard who wants to shoot an endangered animal and is prepared to pay to do so, scum.

So now murder someone just because they might want to shoot an endangered animal, gets worse by the minute


I of course would deny them the opportunity to shoot any

Well you can't, because that is what they are paying for.   Anyone prepared to pay for that is beneath contempt and sub-human and the planet is better off without them.

Put them in a rhino suit and let people pay to hunt them, let them know what it's like.

Sassy wrote:Well you can't, because that is what they are paying for.   Anyone prepared to pay for that is beneath contempt and sub-human and the planet is better off without them.

Put them in a rhino suit and let people pay to hunt them, let them know what it's like.

Anyone who wants to murder someone is subhuman, end of story, again the legacy of Mandela is lost on you once again!

Ah, poor little Digypoos, Mandela's heir, always lived by what he said (well ever since he latched on to him when he died, and as long as it involves coloured people, not poor people)

Sassy wrote:Ah, poor little Digypoos, Mandela's heir, always lived by what he said (well ever since he latched on to him when he died, and as long as it involves coloured people, not poor people)

That made no sense again, dear me you are a tad wound up, look murder is wrong end of story.
You do realise people don;t say coloured anymore, jesus where do you live in some hill billy town in the southern states?
So black people cannot be poor now?
I am all for helping the poor, all I have shown is people, I never made the label, that was you and others, was that many people are living beyond their means, and you want to bury your head in the sand over it!

Now Didgy, it's no good transferring what you feel onto me. I'm not in the least wound up, especially over a forum. You have missed the point again by yet another mile, do try and concentrate. Try reading it again, see if you can get the gist.

Sassy wrote:Now Didgy, it's no good transferring what you feel onto me.   I'm not in the least wound up, especially over a forum.   You have missed the point again by yet another mile, do try and concentrate.   Try reading it again, see if you can get the gist.

I did read the thread and Knave is bang on the money, both of us do not want the animal shot and neither would we want someone murdered over the animal.

No Didge, I meant read my post again, you didn't get it. I'm not surprised.

Sassy wrote:No Didge, I meant read my post again, you didn't get it.   I'm not surprised.

I did read it thanks.

@PhilD
it is not murder if it is state sanctioned, I am not proposing some lone vigilante murder a family. I am proposing a humane cull, and a humane cull should be carried out for the greatest benefits for the minimum death.

I am not playing the moral card, I have it   You are saying it is wrong to murder 1 individual (even though I am not proposing murder), but then condoning what in a moral sense is a crime of even greater magnitude. If we where to give a rhino even close to human rights the individual is paying money to participate in genocide.

I did read the thread and Knave is bang on the money, both of us do not want the animal shot and neither would we want someone murdered over the animal.

Then what is your solution? how do we save a majestic species we have pushed to near extinction for sport and demand for it's horn?
You whinge about feeding poor people in your own country, are you going to pony up the funds needed? I know I direct debit every month to environmental charities, but I suspect I am in the minority.  :::grouch:: :::grouch:: :::grouch::
 

Sorry Veya still murder, as who is going to sanction this?
Why not use simplicity here, you allow the person to pay and being as you already know where the animals roam you send the hunter to the wrong location, as how can you predict where the Rhino is, not your fault they turn up empty handed, plus you have obtained the money which was the objective and it would not the first time someone has been caught up in a sting.

@Phil
okay if you want to be less extreme about it     but that person will probably sue you and normally they don't hunt wild animals in Africa they are often captive animals that are supposed to be used in breed and release programs.

I still like my solution better     yours does not gather any where near as much funds.
Who would sanction it? well a vote for one, The US president, Putin, China or any African Dictator, could probably pull it off. (if it were my choice, skynet   )

I fail to see how you teach anything by doing two wrongs, what is learnt from that? Not much, if we are to teach anything you do this with intelligence and logic, in fact some of the best preservationists are former hunters, you may end up killing the person that brings about real change to hunting. If history has taught us anything is that reason is a better form of persuasion than going to extremes of murder. In fact all you do just like with any situation is you continue a circle of revenge, as we see with extremists all round the world, as this person would no doubt have family and friends and this could lead to some of them talking active revenge, being as they are pro hunting and after countless deaths who has won?

Nobody!

Except the person planning to do this and pay for it is not a hunter, who has to get to know the animals and understand them, even if I disagree with what they do, he is some rich bastard who wants to get his rocks off killing an endangered animal.

Sassy wrote:Except the person planning to do this and pay for it is not a hunter, who has to get to know the animals and understand them, even if I disagree with what they do, he is some rich bastard who wants to get his rocks off killing an endangered animal.

The argument of the left:


Kill kill kill, exterminate all who disagree with me!

veya_victaous wrote:I don't     

Shoot the highest bidder take half their wealth and use it to protect and restore Rhino populations take the other half and use it help the economy, cure cancer or something. lets face it someone that can pay 1 million buck to murder an endangered animal is gonna have more than enough to make a useful difference to 2 causes, and the world both humans and animals (probably plants as well) would be better off with out that kind of monster at all let alone with that sort of wealth.

VIVA LA REVOLUTION  ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: 

Absolutely

PhilDidge wrote:

Sassy wrote:Except the person planning to do this and pay for it is not a hunter, who has to get to know the animals and understand them, even if I disagree with what they do, he is some rich bastard who wants to get his rocks off killing an endangered animal.

The argument of the left:


Kill kill kill, exterminate all who disagree with me!

The argument of the right, kill them slowly and make them work for you for nothing while they die.

veya_victaous wrote:@nicko
I know the one you are talking about and I hate to make you more mad/sad     

But the lion she shot was hand raised, it did not even know to fear humans it had been feed by them all its life. And to make it even more sickening the lion is actually from a captive breeding program that says it is raising them to release into the wild, good meaning people pay money to go and holiday in the lion raising resort being told that the money they pay is feeding the lions (many of these is quite literally you just bought half a cow now lets hand feed these cute little lion cubs). Then When the Lion reaches and age where it no longer cute and safe handle by inexperienced people, when it is supposed to be released into the wild, it is sold to these 'canned hunting' operators who then charge rich assholes to murder it.

there is even more horrors, like they take the lion cubs away from the mothers as soon as they can (normally days) for the same reason that the male lion would kill them so the lioness come on heat again and they can breed her. they basically factory breed the lionesses forcing them to have litter after litter when normally they would have 1 maybe 2 litters a year, they are forced to have 4 or more, this greatly reduces their life span.. not that their quality of life is anything, being farmer like factory hens         

Its true what they say then..... Humans are the most dangerous of animals.

PhilDidge wrote:I fail to see how you teach anything by doing two wrongs, what is learnt from that? Not much, if we are to teach anything you do this with intelligence and logic, in fact some of the best preservationists are former hunters, you may end up killing the person that brings about real change to hunting. If history has taught us anything is that reason is a better form of persuasion than going to extremes of murder. In fact all you do just like with any situation is you continue a circle of revenge, as we see with extremists all round the world, as this person would no doubt have family and friends and this could lead to some of them talking active revenge, being as they are pro hunting and after countless deaths who has won?

Nobody!  

The Time for Teaching is Over, if they were going to learn they would have.  :::grouch::  :::grouch::  :::grouch:: 

and what part of
VIVA LA REVOLUTION  ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: ::sexbnan: 
Do you not understand?
I am part of the new Generation of environmentalists, we are not hippies, we do not believe in pacifism. It has been tried and failed.
It time to try a more direct tactic.   :-:bravo:-:  :-:bravo:-:  :-:bravo:-:  :-:bravo:-:  :-:bravo:-:  :-:bravo:-:  :-:bravo:-: 
We are seeing more success with the more aggressive sea Shepard than Greenpeace regarding Whale protection

And who will win?
 ::-3::