More lefty terror sympathy

A former Home Office terrorism adviser has claimed UK authorities are tackling the terror threat in the wrong way, which is contributing to the radicalisation of young British Muslims.

Jahan Mahmood resigned from his government job in a disagreement over the country's counterterrorism strategy.

He claims there are far too many arrests and most of those detained are never charged or convicted.

:: Where is the capital of terror arrests?

His assertion is in part supported by a Sky News-commissioned analysis of arrest statistics, which reveals two-thirds of those detained under terror legislation last year were never charged with a terrorist offence.
Waris Ali
Video: 'I Was Labelled A Terrorist At 17'

Of 289 terrorism-related arrests in 2014, just 102 were later charged with a terror offence - 35% of the total detained.

The Royal United Services Institute (RUSI), which analysed the figures, said the arrest-to-charge ratio for terrorism offences is "substantially lower" in comparison to the charge rate for all criminal offences (58%).

Mr Mahmood said the trauma and stigma associated with being detained and accused of terrorism often alienates those people and can send some down a path towards violent extremism.

He believes the government is misrepresenting the severity of the threat facing the UK, which in turn puts pressure on the police to move in and arrest individuals, even though they might have little in the way of evidence that an offence has been committed.

He said: "There are simply too many arrests. I put that down to the legislation, but also because of this constant talk about the threat level being severe. That creates this atmosphere of fear.

"Not just fear within the community, but fear within the counterterrorism units around the country - a fear of not doing enough on time, which sometimes means they act without taking due process into consideration.

"This leads to individuals being pulled up on really very flimsy evidence, only to be later released."
Armed British police officers pose for a
Video: Public Are 'Key' To Fighting Terror

He added: "The implications of getting it wrong can only further radicalise some individuals and that's the worry."

Looking at the arrest statistics, RUSI said: "The number of arrests is often quoted as an illustration of the scale of the threat. However, it more accurately demonstrates the scale of police activity in countering it.

"Charge or conviction data would be a better measure of the level of confirmed terrorist activity."

Waris Ali was just 17 when he was arrested at his home in Dewsbury, West Yorkshire, accused of downloading and possessing terrorist documents and ingredients which could be used to make explosives.

The authorities were convinced he posed a genuine threat to the public, but at his subsequent trial, a jury took just three hours to clear him of all charges.

That was seven years ago and the 25 year old is still very bitter about his treatment by the authorities, which included months of youth detention and 24-hour house arrest.

He told Sky News many young British Muslims are being targeted by the authorities for expressing the kind of views that would once have fallen under the category of freedom of speech, but which no longer seem to be tolerated.
Armed police take part in a simulated attack.
Video: Armed Police Simulate Terror Attack

His claims come as the Home Office told Sky News that 315 people were arrested on suspected terrorism charges in the last year up to September - up a third on the previous year.

Of those detained, 50 were women - double the number for 2013/14.

Mr Ali said: "There are many politically engaged Muslims - you see them on TV," said Waris. "But you see those same Muslims being smeared and labelled and being called an Islamist or terrorist sympathiser - even Jeremy Corbyn has been called a terrorist sympathiser by the Prime Minister.

"We need to have a more open and honest dialogue and discussion about the issues, rather than attacking people because of their faith. We need to actually listen to their arguments.

"If I can't go to the mosque and talk about these issues, if I can't talk about it at the workplace, if I can't talk about it at university, if I can't talk about it in the media, where exactly are people supposed to talk about these issues? Where exactly are people supposed to go?

"Is it any wonder that young Muslims who want to be politically engaged are being alienated."

For the police, it is a difficult path to tread. Senior officers say the need to disrupt potential terrorist activity quickly can often mean they struggle to gather enough evidence to put before the courts.
'British jihadists' video.
Video: Sept 2014: British Jihadis Report

Scotland Yard said it was working on 600 terror-related investigations.

A statement added: "We work proactively and positively to prevent attacks and other terrorist offences, and may exercise a power of arrest during that process if it is necessary to do so in order to obtain evidence.

"This may be the only way to find out that a person should no longer be suspected of committing an offence or to understand the need to refer them for further support or to confirm that there is evidence that offences have been committed.

"Any arrest as part of a counterterrorism policing investigation is carefully considered and only made if it is necessary, usually with senior officer oversight."

The Home Office responded by saying public safety must come first.

"At a time of such significant threat, it is only right that our police, security and intelligence agencies take all necessary steps to protect the British public," a statement said.

"At the same time we are working in partnership with local groups and communities to challenge those who spread hatred and intolerance."



oh dear the poor darlings are feeling badly done to....

perhaps we should just leave em to get on with it...

after all whats a few blown up....

and we can now contrast the whingeing above with this

from http://news.sky.com/story/1603507/nearly-700-suspected-paedophiles-arrested




Nearly 700 suspected paedophiles have been arrested over the last nine months, the National Crime Agency has said.

The arrests have come as a result of an operation targeting people looking at online child abuse images, according to the agency.

Around one in seven of those detained were held "positions of trust" - including people working in teaching, medical roles, law enforcement, criminal justice and government.

The NCA said it had worked with 40 police forces to detain a total of 682 people on suspicion of accessing indecent images of children.

Out of those, 147 people have been charged.

As a result of the operation, 399 children have been so far safeguarded, it added.

Simon Bailey, of the National Police Chiefs' Council, said 93% of those arrested were not previously known to law enforcement agencies in relation to child abuse.

He said: "If we hadn't gone out looking for them as we have done, they would have remained under the radar and the nearly 400 children we've safeguarded since then would still be at risk.



hmmm so the charge to arrest ration here is 147/700 x 100 is 21 %

going by the lefty argument this is somehow unfair  
becasue of the low rate of charge to arrest

clearly the lefties want us to stop arresting potential terrorists....

should we therfore conclude the same applies here??

or is it that once again they are terrorist sympathisers?

or perhaps I'm being too harsh and they are simply clueless whingers who just want to sound good

Congrats, you win:

Actually Ben, his point is very valid.

As I stated on the other thread, other people fall into groups that are victims of wrongful charges and arrests.
Do you see them then join extremist groups or then commit terror acts?
No
It takes a hate narative already in the mindset to make a person then feel they are being picked on because they are Muslim, neglecting there is an issue with islamic extremism.
That is what more than anything tips some Muslims over towards extremism. Muslims have to accept the Police have to use as best their intelligence service as possible. This means mistakes, but 35 percent is a very good rate compared as seen to other crimes.
Are the other 78 percent of those not charged for child sex abuse now more vunerable to being radicalised?

You see when you look at such poor regressive arguments they are nonsense, when Muslims should understand and help that the Police force has a difficult time ahead trying to find the terrorist and their supporters.

Ben_Reilly wrote:Congrats, you win:

^^^^^^^^^what happens when a lefty cant argue the simple facts^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



did you actually manage to comprehend the comparison OR point I was making....

didnt think so

Lord Foul wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:Congrats, you win:

^^^^^^^^^what happens when a lefty cant argue the simple facts^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



did you actually manage to comprehend the comparison OR point I was making....

didnt think so

Did you not get the part where I called it nonsense? You're comparing two completely different situations and trying to (once again) sew it all up into your neat and tidy "Theory of Why Lefties Cause All the World's Problems."

Didge isn't helping, by the way. I don't believe your OP even mentioned radicalization, and it's puzzling to imagine what a radicalized pedophile might do ...

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:


^^^^^^^^^what happens when a lefty cant argue the simple facts^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



did you actually manage to comprehend the comparison OR point I was making....

didnt think so

Did you not get the part where I called it nonsense? You're comparing two completely different situations and trying to (once again) sew it all up into your neat and tidy "Theory of Why Lefties Cause All the World's Problems."

Didge isn't helping, by the way. I don't believe your OP even mentioned radicalization, and it's puzzling to imagine what a radicalized pedophile might do ...

It is a report fundementally on a view that is fueling radicalisation.
Again you cannot grasp greivance and methods.
Two different people wrongfully arrested and charged.
One gets on with his life and wins money for the error, the other suddenlly thinks, I know its because I am a Muslim, that they arrested me unfairly, not that there is thousands in Jail for terrorist related offenses. He should like the other individual get on with his life and be in pocket. Sad that both have suffered, but it is only narartives of hate that turn people and it is these natartives of hate and blame that is turning susceptible Muslims

Can you not grasp that.
So how would the wrongful arrest make them susceptible to radicalisation, if they already have a poor perceived view of the west thinking Islam is under attack by the west and they claim the west is murdering raping msulims.
Do you really think the arrest plays any signififcant part here, or the hate?

Victor, that is so easy to knock your argument.  Take when police used to do 'stop and search' on coloured boys all the time.  They got pissed off, so they rebelled.  That's to be expected.  Now, you do the same to someone and accuse them of being a peadophile, they might get pissed off, but it won't turn them into a paedophile will it?  Oh, I'm pissed off so I'm going to abuse children, even though I'm not interested in abuse children, I like to fuck women/men!  Not a chance!   Most ridiculous argument I have ever heard you put forward.  Now I'm off to do dinner as I haven't been allowed to eat for 2 days before I had tests this morning and I'm bloody starving.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:


^^^^^^^^^what happens when a lefty cant argue the simple facts^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^



did you actually manage to comprehend the comparison OR point I was making....

didnt think so

Did you not get the part where I called it nonsense? You're comparing two completely different situations and trying to (once again) sew it all up into your neat and tidy "Theory of Why Lefties Cause All the World's Problems."

Didge isn't helping, by the way. I don't believe your OP even mentioned radicalization, and it's puzzling to imagine what a radicalized pedophile might do ...

your head must be so far up your arse that you can view your dinner incomming

the point is like everyone else I applaude the fact that the police are "on the ball" chasing these paedophiles

so they only got sufficient evidence to charge 21 % of em....

well thats how the cookie crumbles, how many were actually completely innocent is unknown

now as to those terrorism arrests.....35% were charged...and yet oh no shock horror this will "radicalise" them..it will "upset them"

I suggest they fk off and get a life...

being arrested for and subsequently released from terrorism charges my friend is NOT in the same league as being arrested for and subsequently released from charges of paedophillia.

Arresting people without charging them within a community that has a shared set of non-mainstream values looks and feels to them like oppression. Some people who feel oppressed because of their group identity become radicalized. We see that in the U.S. with right-wing terrorists -- they feel that mainstream society is oppressing them. Clearly, increasing the hassle of being arrested but not charged is counterproductive.

Pedophiles, to my knowledge, don't worship at the same places, share the same traditions or celebrate the same holidays in a way that sets them apart from the mainstream of the societies in which they live, the way Muslims do in the West.

Just to expand a bit on the part about the pedophiles, them being arrested but not charged doesn't tend to make them feel their community (tribe) is under attack and must be defended (via terrorism) the way it would with many religions or ideologies.

sassy wrote:Victor, that is so easy to knock your argument.  Take when police used to do 'stop and search' on coloured boys all the time.  They got pissed off, so they rebelled.  That's to be expected.  Now, you do the same to someone and accuse them of being a peadophile, they might get pissed off, but it won't turn them into a paedophile will it?  Oh, I'm pissed off so I'm going to abuse children, even though I'm not interested in abuse children, I like to fuck women/men!  Not a chance!   Most ridiculous argument I have ever heard you put forward.  Now I'm off to do dinner as I haven't been allowed to eat for 2 days before I had tests this morning and I'm bloody starving.

does the fact of its effect actually have any bearing on the problem???

NO

1: as I said above being accused of terrorism doesnt have the same life effect as being accused of paedophillia...
2: perhaps it wont turn someone into a paedophile....but it MIGHT just turn them into a sociopath,,,


I mean follow the same thinking as your "poor old Muslims"

right society has done this to me...I know I'll punish society by blowing up a shopping mall full of women and kids

but they dont do they....

ask yourself WHY...

and then I'll tell you.....


the Muslim expects different treatment, and gets all "upset" and antsy

christ on a bike when will you lefties put your brains in gear

IF there was a shooting around here and the only witness said it was a white male with a shot gun how long do you think it would be before the local plod turned up to arrest me for questioning (along with 2 dozen others)

I'm a "minority" ...I own a gun....well a number actually...

would i resent it....or be happy plod was doing his job?

those feckers that claim such things as this "radicalise" some Muslims forget one BIG factor....

doing so doesnt only protect the depised white man

it protects fuzzy and sexy too......

dumb Sassy ...i'm surprised at you
and to even consider it in the same light as "stop and search" is disingenious in any case

Ben_Reilly wrote:Arresting people without charging them within a community that has a shared set of non-mainstream values looks and feels to them like oppression. Some people who feel oppressed because of their group identity become radicalized. We see that in the U.S. with right-wing terrorists -- they feel that mainstream society is oppressing them. Clearly, increasing the hassle of being arrested but not charged is counterproductive.

Pedophiles, to my knowledge, don't worship at the same places, share the same traditions or celebrate the same holidays in a way that sets them apart from the mainstream of the societies in which they live, the way Muslims do in the West.

the fact you posted this proves you fail to understand my point

Ben_Reilly wrote:Arresting people without charging them within a community that has a shared set of non-mainstream values looks and feels to them like oppression. Some people who feel oppressed because of their group identity become radicalized. We see that in the U.S. with right-wing terrorists -- they feel that mainstream society is oppressing them. Clearly, increasing the hassle of being arrested but not charged is counterproductive.

Pedophiles, to my knowledge, don't worship at the same places, share the same traditions or celebrate the same holidays in a way that sets them apart from the mainstream of the societies in which they live, the way Muslims do in the West.

So can any group claim to feel the same, if they perceive so based off who they are.
I more than anyone am against racial profilling, but again people have to understand where there has actually been a substancial number of convictions in this country and many terrorist attempts thwarted, then the Muslim community need to help here also and understand some Muslims might be wrongly arrested based off poor intelligence. They should then work with the Police to correct this. I would also rightly condemn any Police for just arresting a Muslim for being a Muslim, but we are talking about here where there is suspcion to terrorist criminal activity.

Again someone who has been arrested wrongfully as a pedophile, is a not a pedophile, so that point on religion is just plain stupid. They are innocent just as the Muslim is innocent if wrongfully charged. What you do is work on ensuring less mistakes happen. But what you do not do is what and where it can very wrong that it goes in the opposite direction and the Police fear to then arrest and charge those who are very much involved in terrorism. Its finding a balance and the right one, that sees less of the innocent get arrested or charged and more of the guilty, but mistakes do happen. What is not acceptable tis to claim this leads then to radicalisation when many people are victims of not only wrongful arrests but crimes themselves. So this is what I mean about unity and where the Muslim leaders are not helping here as it is going to be expected that more Muslims will be suspected of terrorism.

I was against the stop and search of terrorism, which did not yeild when in operation a single conviction, as it was not based on intelligence. I do back though where there is some evidence or leads to arrest those suspcious, and to not do so is brainless. There is no argument that would showed this should ever lead to violence as again it is a hate narative no matter the group victimized that leads to violence

Vic, look at your own siege mentality and then imagine how you'd feel if pagans were being dragged in by police all the time, but not arrested, because of some crime another pagan had committed. And it's not even you -- imagine what some pagans might do if this was going on. It would build resentment and some might very well become "radicalized."

Ben_Reilly wrote:Just to expand a bit on the part about the pedophiles, them being arrested but not charged doesn't tend to make them feel their community (tribe) is under attack and must be defended (via terrorism) the way it would with many religions or ideologies.

no indeed not...
it tends to make their community...ie the people they have to live with, turn on them, burn their houses and kill them

ALTERNATIVELY if you meant by "their community" paedophiles as a group, then in reality there is no such thing, certainly not beyond "small group size"

what THAT means is of course that you are admitting the problem is "the community" ...i.e ISLAM (in this case)
and making a case for that community to be "broken up" and fragmented to the point it becomes irrelevant....

Richard The Lionheart wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:Arresting people without charging them within a community that has a shared set of non-mainstream values looks and feels to them like oppression. Some people who feel oppressed because of their group identity become radicalized. We see that in the U.S. with right-wing terrorists -- they feel that mainstream society is oppressing them. Clearly, increasing the hassle of being arrested but not charged is counterproductive.

Pedophiles, to my knowledge, don't worship at the same places, share the same traditions or celebrate the same holidays in a way that sets them apart from the mainstream of the societies in which they live, the way Muslims do in the West.

So can any group claim to feel the same, if they perceive so based off who they are.
I more than anyone am against racial profilling, but again people have to understand where there has actually been a substancial number of convictions in this country and many terrorist attempts thwarted, then the Muslim community need to help here also and understand some Muslims might be wrongly arrested based off poor intelligence. They should then work with the Police to correct this. I would also rightly condemn any Police for just arresting a Muslim for being a Muslim, but we are talking about here where there is suspcion to terrorist criminal activity.

Again someone who has been arrested wrongfully as a pedophile, is a not a pedophile, so that point on religion is just plain stupid. They are innocent just as the Muslim is innocent if wrongfully charged. What you do is work on ensuring less mistakes happen. But what you do not do is what and where it can very wrong that it goes in the opposite direction and the Police fear to then arrest and charge those who are very much involved in terrorism. Its finding a balance and the right one, that sees less of the innocent get arrested or charged and more of the guilty, but mistakes do happen. What is not acceptable tis to claim this leads then to radicalisation when many people are victims of not only wrongful arrests but crimes themselves. So this is what I mean about unity and where the Muslim leaders are not helping here as it is going to be expected that more Muslims will be suspected of terrorism.

I was against the stop and search of terrorism, which did not yeild when in operation a single conviction, as it was not based on intelligence. I do back though where there is some evidence or leads to arrest those suspcious, and to not do so is brainless. There is no argument that would showed this should ever lead to violence as again it is a hate narative no matter the group victimized that leads to violence

What I'm saying isn't hard to understand. Pedophiles aren't going to be arrested, then not charged, and conclude: "They've got it in for us. I have to attack them in order to defend my people, the pedophiles."

You do that to pretty much any minority or group that perceives itself as oppressed, and they might very well conclude: "They've got it in for us Muslims/black people/white supremacists/Christians. I have to attack them in order to defend my people."

The guy in the OP is spot on. Rounding up people isn't going to de-escalate tensions, it's going to build them.

Lord Foul wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:Just to expand a bit on the part about the pedophiles, them being arrested but not charged doesn't tend to make them feel their community (tribe) is under attack and must be defended (via terrorism) the way it would with many religions or ideologies.

no indeed not...
it tends to make their community...ie the people they have to live with, turn on them, burn their houses and kill them

ALTERNATIVELY if you meant by "their community" paedophiles as a group, then in reality there is no such thing, certainly not beyond "small group size"

what THAT means is of course that you are admitting the problem is "the community" ...i.e ISLAM (in this case)
and making a case for that community to be "broken up" and fragmented to the point it becomes irrelevant....

Assuming you're part of a pagan community, the exact same thing could happen to you or people you consider friends.

Ben_Reilly wrote:Vic, look at your own siege mentality and then imagine how you'd feel if pagans were being dragged in by police all the time, but not arrested, because of some crime another pagan had committed. And it's not even you -- imagine what some pagans might do if this was going on. It would build resentment and some might very well become "radicalized."

shows what YOU know doesnt it??

perhaps you should educate yourself...

wasnt so long ago and I mean NOT LONG AGO that this very thing happened

google highlands and islands satanic abuse scandle

where there was no crime actually commited, indeed no children were present....

Nothing to do with seige mentality, indeed it is the twerps claiming this is radicalising that have the seige mentality

and anyway...whats your answer...do nothing??? as per...
after all a few bombs here and there....so what

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:

no indeed not...
it tends to make their community...ie the people they have to live with, turn on them, burn their houses and kill them

ALTERNATIVELY if you meant by "their community" paedophiles as a group, then in reality there is no such thing, certainly not beyond "small group size"

what THAT means is of course that you are admitting the problem is "the community" ...i.e ISLAM (in this case)
and making a case for that community to be "broken up" and fragmented to the point it becomes irrelevant....

Assuming you're part of a pagan community, the exact same thing could happen to you or people you consider friends.

except pagans (or even people claiming to be pagans) dont (over here at least) run round blowing things up

and consider my last post.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Richard The Lionheart wrote:

So can any group claim to feel the same, if they perceive so based off who they are.
I more than anyone am against racial profilling, but again people have to understand where there has actually been a substancial number of convictions in this country and many terrorist attempts thwarted, then the Muslim community need to help here also and understand some Muslims might be wrongly arrested based off poor intelligence. They should then work with the Police to correct this. I would also rightly condemn any Police for just arresting a Muslim for being a Muslim, but we are talking about here where there is suspcion to terrorist criminal activity.

Again someone who has been arrested wrongfully as a pedophile, is a not a pedophile, so that point on religion is just plain stupid. They are innocent just as the Muslim is innocent if wrongfully charged. What you do is work on ensuring less mistakes happen. But what you do not do is what and where it can very wrong that it goes in the opposite direction and the Police fear to then arrest and charge those who are very much involved in terrorism. Its finding a balance and the right one, that sees less of the innocent get arrested or charged and more of the guilty, but mistakes do happen. What is not acceptable tis to claim this leads then to radicalisation when many people are victims of not only wrongful arrests but crimes themselves. So this is what I mean about unity and where the Muslim leaders are not helping here as it is going to be expected that more Muslims will be suspected of terrorism.

I was against the stop and search of terrorism, which did not yeild when in operation a single conviction, as it was not based on intelligence. I do back though where there is some evidence or leads to arrest those suspcious, and to not do so is brainless. There is no argument that would showed this should ever lead to violence as again it is a hate narative no matter the group victimized that leads to violence

What I'm saying isn't hard to understand. Pedophiles aren't going to be arrested, then not charged, and conclude: "They've got it in for us. I have to attack them in order to defend my people, the pedophiles."

You do that to pretty much any minority or group that perceives itself as oppressed, and they might very well conclude: "They've got it in for us Muslims/black people/white supremacists/Christians. I have to attack them in order to defend my people."

The guy in the OP is spot on. Rounding up people isn't going to de-escalate tensions, it's going to build them.

Again someone innocent is not anything but a person, so to say they are a pedophile is again stupid, just as a Muslim wronfully arrested for terrorism, is not anything else but a person. Only if he has been arrested based on nothing more than being a Muslim would it be wrong. If the evidence was falsified against him by the Police then that would be wrong. If there is a case where he was just viewing things on the web, then that Muslim would be a complete idiot, being as the web is being monitored and more fool him for doing so. Its a no brained that you are going to suspect someone looking at such activities and they are a Muslim. They sort of place themself on a higher risk category.

So again any wrongful arrests based on sterotypes are wrong. If the evidence they had or intelligence was not correct or were mislead by bad witnesses, that is understandable the Police have made a genuine mistake following up that lead. That is where the community has to understand that somntimes this will happen, or that vindictive peopel might deliberately give the Police false leads to create problems for people. The Police can only go on the evidence they have, but to play off every single wrong arrest or conviction that it is dopwn to only being a Muslims is very wrong and very wrong to play off. Again it is a narative of hate, no matter the group the person comes from that only leads to a path of violence.

so ben ...what would the lefty do eh....
?

sweet fk all as usual, and everyone else can suck it up?????????????????????

AND a few hundred arrested does not constitute "rounding up" so quit with the emotive lefty speak

Lord Foul wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:Vic, look at your own siege mentality and then imagine how you'd feel if pagans were being dragged in by police all the time, but not arrested, because of some crime another pagan had committed. And it's not even you -- imagine what some pagans might do if this was going on. It would build resentment and some might very well become "radicalized."

shows what YOU know doesnt it??

perhaps you should educate yourself...

wasnt so long ago and I mean NOT LONG AGO that this very thing happened

google highlands and islands satanic abuse scandle

where there was no crime actually commited, indeed no children were present....

Nothing to do with seige mentality, indeed it is the twerps claiming this is radicalising that have the seige mentality

and anyway...whats your answer...do nothing??? as per...
after all a few bombs here and there....so what

Totally different, that was an isolated case, not a systemic phenomenon.

Anyway, I'm off, it's a big day for me ...

odf course the other possible alternative is to do exactly what the lefty here is suggesting....

do nothing ...and let "the people " deal with it....

is THAT what you want????

cos it aint what I want sunshine.....

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:

shows what YOU know doesnt it??

perhaps you should educate yourself...

wasnt so long ago and I mean NOT LONG AGO that this very thing happened

google highlands and islands satanic abuse scandle

where there was no crime actually commited, indeed no children were present....

Nothing to do with seige mentality, indeed it is the twerps claiming this is radicalising that have the seige mentality

and anyway...whats your answer...do nothing??? as per...
after all a few bombs here and there....so what

Totally different, that was an isolated case, not a systemic phenomenon.

Anyway, I'm off, it's a big day for me ...

yeah we know ben...its always different, when its one of your "protected species"

Big day??

gettin your leg over???

notice however, that the left as usual can only whige "its not fair wahhhhhhh!"

and NOT provide an alternative.

Birthday celebrations Victor


Happy Birthday Ben

Oh I see...ah well

Have a good un ben


and I hope indeed that you do "get your leg over"

but if you come back with a hangover...dont expect any sympathy whatsoever

It is the job of the police to arrest suspects... this is in reaction to crime, not the cause...

Ben_Reilly wrote:Arresting people without charging them within a community that has a shared set of non-mainstream values looks and feels to them like oppression. Some people who feel oppressed because of their group identity become radicalized. We see that in the U.S. with right-wing terrorists -- they feel that mainstream society is oppressing them. Clearly, increasing the hassle of being arrested but not charged is counterproductive.

Pedophiles, to my knowledge, don't worship at the same places, share the same traditions or celebrate the same holidays in a way that sets them apart from the mainstream of the societies in which they live, the way Muslims do in the West.

You didn't seem to have a problem with the police rounding up all the bikers at Waco. The police don't arrest someone just because they're a Muslim. You said it yourself - if people worship at the same place, they might have connections with someone who has actually done something wrong who goes to the same place. Oh, and not all Muslims do everything the same - you're generalising again.

Paedophiles do sometimes have their own community - online. The police would naturally question anyone who had been in contact with one who had broken the law.

Mr Ali said: "There are many politically engaged Muslims - you see them on TV," said Waris. "But you see those same Muslims being smeared and labelled and being called an Islamist or terrorist sympathiser - even Jeremy Corbyn has been called a terrorist sympathiser by the Prime Minister.

I don't know about Corbyn's sympathies or otherwise for Islamic terrorists, but he certainly refused to condemn the IRA terrorists, and he's rather pally with other IRA sympathisers.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:Arresting people without charging them within a community that has a shared set of non-mainstream values looks and feels to them like oppression. Some people who feel oppressed because of their group identity become radicalized. We see that in the U.S. with right-wing terrorists -- they feel that mainstream society is oppressing them. Clearly, increasing the hassle of being arrested but not charged is counterproductive.

Pedophiles, to my knowledge, don't worship at the same places, share the same traditions or celebrate the same holidays in a way that sets them apart from the mainstream of the societies in which they live, the way Muslims do in the West.

You didn't seem to have a problem with the police rounding up all the bikers at Waco. The police don't arrest someone just because they're a Muslim. You said it yourself - if people worship at the same place, they might have connections with someone who has actually done something wrong who goes to the same place. Oh, and not all Muslims do everything the same - you're generalising again.

Paedophiles do sometimes have their own community - online. The police would naturally question anyone who had been in contact with one who had broken the law.

Being part of a biker club or even a "pedophile community" (gross) is nothing like being a member of a religion or a racial minority.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

You didn't seem to have a problem with the police rounding up all the bikers at Waco. The police don't arrest someone just because they're a Muslim. You said it yourself - if people worship at the same place, they might have connections with someone who has actually done something wrong who goes to the same place. Oh, and not all Muslims do everything the same - you're generalising again.

Paedophiles do sometimes have their own community - online. The police would naturally question anyone who had been in contact with one who had broken the law.

Being part of a biker club or even a "pedophile community" (gross) is nothing like being a member of a religion or a racial minority. (because if it was it would be politically difficult for the lefty to bull the minority groups they so love to have a down on???)

why is a bikers club any different to a minor religous group?

veya doesnt beleive in freedom of opinion, nor it seems freedom of speech

here we have you denying "freedom of association"


hmmm....not going to be an awful lot of human rights left is there


when will you get to repealing the right to life (unless people agree with you in every particular)?

lets recap

two groups of suspects

one paedophiles (suspects)
the other Muslim terrorists (suspects)

both get arrested on the back of various intel

one has a 35% charge to arrest ratio
the other has a 22% charge to arrest ratio

yet the one with the 35% ratio is wrong, and unfair and allows them to become radicalise?

the other is "tough titty" for those not charged

is it me or are the left truely warped and have totally sold out to the radicalisation thing

they are like a huge amount of parents today who are scared of their toddlers and give in to every tantrum.

(actually like those parent they are not scared of the "toddlers" they are scared of other people looking at them and say "ohh look at that...how terrible", and giving in, rather than fetching said brat a smart slap on the legs)

Not me. I don't care who's watching - I don't slap, I dint have to - I count to three loudly with my daughter.

And I stick to my threats too.

Lord Foul wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

You didn't seem to have a problem with the police rounding up all the bikers at Waco. The police don't arrest someone just because they're a Muslim. You said it yourself - if people worship at the same place, they might have connections with someone who has actually done something wrong who goes to the same place. Oh, and not all Muslims do everything the same - you're generalising again.

Paedophiles do sometimes have their own community - online. The police would naturally question anyone who had been in contact with one who had broken the law.

Being part of a biker club or even a "pedophile community" (gross) is nothing like being a member of a religion or a racial minority. (because if it was it would be politically difficult for the lefty to bull the minority groups they so love to have a down on???)

why is a bikers club any different to a minor religous group?

veya doesnt beleive in freedom of opinion, nor it seems freedom of speech

here we have you denying "freedom of association"


hmmm....not going to be an awful lot of human rights left is there


when will you get to repealing the right to life (unless people agree with you in every particular)?

I believe in freedom of association. I'm just arguing, irrefutably I might add, that the bond between people within a religious community who have been raised since babies to believe they were part of God's people is far more powerful than the bond between people who share a hobby or even a way of life.

I doubt you'd support this being done to anyone other than Muslims.

Lord Foul wrote:lets recap

two groups of suspects

one paedophiles (suspects)
the other Muslim terrorists (suspects)

both get arrested on the back of various intel

one has a 35% charge to arrest ratio
the other has a 22% charge to arrest ratio

yet the one with the 35% ratio is wrong, and unfair and allows them to become radicalise?

the other is "tough titty" for those not charged

is it me or are the left truely warped and have totally sold out to the radicalisation thing

they are like a huge amount of parents today who are scared of their toddlers and give in to every tantrum.

(actually like those parent they are not scared of the "toddlers" they are scared of other people looking at them and say "ohh look at that...how terrible", and giving in, rather than fetching said brat a smart slap on the legs)

It's not even a question of being nicer to one group than the other. It's evaluating the consequences of your actions, something you seem to refuse to do in this case.

Arresting members of a religion without charging them is always going to be perceived differently than arresting pedophiles, etc. without charging them. In the latter case, the perception is simply that you're very serious about protecting kids. In the former, the perception is that you're targeting a religious minority community, and that will always build resentment -- which is what we're trying to avoid, remember?

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:

why is a bikers club any different to a minor religous group?

veya doesnt beleive in freedom of opinion, nor it seems freedom of speech

here we have you denying "freedom of association"


hmmm....not going to be an awful lot of human rights left is there


when will you get to repealing the right to life (unless people agree with you in every particular)?

I believe in freedom of association. I'm just arguing, irrefutably I might add, that the bond between people within a religious community who have been raised since babies to believe they were part of God's people is far more powerful than the bond between people who share a hobby or even a way of life.

I doubt you'd support this being done to anyone other than Muslims.

And that is infinately dangerous having such a bond, because its based on a concept.
You know as well as i do you never had a choice over faith until you were old enough to know better.
One could easily state that is child abuse because you are having a belief forced upon you that is at odds with what is right. We all know to treat others how we would want to be treated ourselves is the golden rule.
But and here is the big but, the abrahamic faiths do not allow for that.
It is a religious form of racism that only fuirther serves those of that faith.
Where they areMums and dads who can disown their own child, or brother or sister for just being gay,

So you tell me, is that bond a good thing or ultimately an abhorant thing?
When a group has a bond that places something they have no evidence of over something they themselves have created, well to me, you can kiss that sorry arse bond goodbye, because it is nothing more than derisive

Stop defending bad beliefs ben

And before you say, I believe all should have equality under the law, no matter if they are a racist twat or a religious nutball

Richard The Lionheart wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:

why is a bikers club any different to a minor religous group?

veya doesnt beleive in freedom of opinion, nor it seems freedom of speech

here we have you denying "freedom of association"


hmmm....not going to be an awful lot of human rights left is there


when will you get to repealing the right to life (unless people agree with you in every particular)?

I believe in freedom of association. I'm just arguing, irrefutably I might add, that the bond between people within a religious community who have been raised since babies to believe they were part of God's people is far more powerful than the bond between people who share a hobby or even a way of life.

I doubt you'd support this being done to anyone other than Muslims.

And that is infinately dangerous having such a bond, because its based on a concept.
You know as well as i do you never had a choice over faith until you were old enough to know better.
One could easily state that is child abuse because you are having a belief forced upon you that is at odds with what is right. We all know to treat others how we would want to be treated ourselves is the golden rule.
But and here is the big but, the abrahamic faiths do not allow for that.
It is a religious form of racism that only fuirther serves those of that faith.
Where they areMums and dads who can disown their own child, or brother or sister for just being gay,

So you tell me, is that bond a good thing or ultimately an abhorant thing?
When a group has a bond that places something they have no evidence of over something they themselves have created, well to me, you can kiss that sorry arse bond goodbye, because it is nothing more than derisive

Stop defending bad beliefs ben

I don't disagree with anything you said, and I'm not defending anything but the position that taking an action which can be perceived to be oppressive is counterproductive. What is our goal -- to have more or fewer "radicalized Muslims"? (I use quotes because that's such a crappy premise; we don't call the Planned Parenthood shooter a "radicalized Christian.")

If we want more Muslims pissed off at the "West," do things that they see as pointless repression. If we want fewer, take action where it's clear we're fighting crime and violence, not Islam.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Richard The Lionheart wrote:


And that is infinately dangerous having such a bond, because its based on a concept.
You know as well as i do you never had a choice over faith until you were old enough to know better.
One could easily state that is child abuse because you are having a belief forced upon you that is at odds with what is right. We all know to treat others how we would want to be treated ourselves is the golden rule.
But and here is the big but, the abrahamic faiths do not allow for that.
It is a religious form of racism that only fuirther serves those of that faith.
Where they areMums and dads who can disown their own child, or brother or sister for just being gay,

So you tell me, is that bond a good thing or ultimately an abhorant thing?
When a group has a bond that places something they have no evidence of over something they themselves have created, well to me, you can kiss that sorry arse bond goodbye, because it is nothing more than derisive

Stop defending bad beliefs ben

I don't disagree with anything you said, and I'm not defending anything but the position that taking an action which can be perceived to be oppressive is counterproductive. What is our goal -- to have more or fewer "radicalized Muslims"? (I use quotes because that's such a crappy premise; we don't call the Planned Parenthood shooter a "radicalized Christian.")

If we want more Muslims pissed off at the "West," do things that they see as pointless repression. If we want fewer, take action where it's clear we're fighting crime and violence, not Islam.

Again how can something be counter productive unless a group takes issue with something that to them is unfair.
That would be discrmination.
If a set amount of Muslims are viewing a way opf life at odds with you, what do you do?

1) Do nothing and hope that problem goes away?
2) recognise there is a problem, whether it be poor inequality, poverty etc, that allows some people to be more susceptible, but really does not change many other people in this situtaion, unless something further is added.
Hate and blame.

Whenever American africans have lashed out to wrongs done to them and also committed to violence, this achives nothing and only further aids the far right. If you play off a victimhood, to the point of hatred, it is counter productive. What you do is change perceptions, that people are not ignorant racist idiots. Hate achieves nothing and allows that hate to spread no matter the ideology, makes those who commit to that, no better than what made them be drawn in the first place.

The reality is one could argue some African americans have been drawn to muder because of racism, but why?
because they also were fed off a hate narative. It is only a hate narative that will if continual that can corrupt the mind Ben. So why would an American Muslim with absolutely no connection to Iraq, Syria or Afganistan, murder people?

Two things

One, a play off their faith and hate and it is this combination within islam, which is very dangereous, as it once was for crusaders. Did you know they also were once promised with martydom, that all their sins would be forgiven if they killed infidels and died in the service to their god?
Nothing has changed for centuries Ben and the problem is, always those who preach hate

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:lets recap

two groups of suspects

one paedophiles (suspects)
the other Muslim terrorists (suspects)

both get arrested on the back of various intel

one has a 35% charge to arrest ratio
the other has a 22% charge to arrest ratio

yet the one with the 35% ratio is wrong, and unfair and allows them to become radicalise?

the other is "tough titty" for those not charged

is it me or are the left truely warped and have totally sold out to the radicalisation thing

they are like a huge amount of parents today who are scared of their toddlers and give in to every tantrum.

(actually like those parent they are not scared of the "toddlers" they are scared of other people looking at them and say "ohh look at that...how terrible", and giving in, rather than fetching said brat a smart slap on the legs)

It's not even a question of being nicer to one group than the other. It's evaluating the consequences of your actions, something you seem to refuse to do in this case.

Arresting members of a religion without charging them is always going to be perceived differently than arresting pedophiles, etc. without charging them. In the latter case, the perception is simply that you're very serious about protecting kids. In the former, the perception is that you're targeting a religious minority community, and that will always build resentment -- which is what we're trying to avoid, remember?

and so your answer is what? do nothing? be frightened to arrest potential terrorists, in case we "upset them"?
spend a couple of weeks "making sure"....... in the meanwhile they have blown yet another tube train.shopping mall whatever to pieces?

and

so its ok to"be serious about protecting your kids from paedophiles (yes yes)

but ...its not ok to be serious about protecting them (and others) from being blown up, etc, becsue it upsets some....

lets just say ben you continually make a better and better case for your MR TRUMP

if the poor darlings are that easily offended then they had best piss off back whence they originated.

see its the left thats running scared...as soon as one of these primitives screams I'm offended/ you will radicalise me whatever you kneel down in supplication and give in...

if the first one to do that had been shot thrown out...I bet we would NOT be where we are now

get this mother fuckers

you have no right NOT TO BE OFFENDED

NOT when both YOUR and mine...safety is at hand...

and

if anyone even suggests/mentions radicalisation due to legitimate and reasonable policing under the present circumstances....they should be removed post haste

Didge,,,its a regressive lefty thing

the object of attention pretends "victim status", squeals loud and they immediately buckle and give in

instead of handing out a hefty slap.

they have done it constantly and regularly for years....

Stop putting words in my mouth, guys. I already stated my solution to the problem:

If we want more Muslims pissed off at the "West," do things that they see as pointless repression. If we want fewer, take action where it's clear we're fighting crime and violence, not Islam.

Lord Foul wrote:Didge,,,its a regressive lefty thing

the object of attention pretends "victim status", squeals loud and they immediately buckle and give in

instead of handing out a hefty slap.

they have done it constantly and regularly for years....

Are you capable of debating an issue without throwing out insults like that?

they have done it with the excuse of "well it doesnt infringe YOUR rights"

now they see why THEIR way of continuous appeasement doesnt work

its gone from "special food rights" (in contravention to animal welfare standards)
to clothing.... they can enter a till area with face and head covered ...i cant

now its gone even to policeing

they feel "they can do as they want and its "insulting and "radicalising" to be policed ....IN EXACTLY THE SAME way as the irish were at the height of the troubles and in exactly the SAME way as any group white black or purple with green spots would be policed under the same circumstance

and once again...despite the fact that THIS TIME the issue is everyones safety

the lefty's want to crawl on their bellies to them and appologies and appease

PFFFT

Lord Foul wrote:they have done it with the excuse of "well it doesnt infringe YOUR rights"

now they see why THEIR way of continuous appeasement doesnt work

its gone from "special food rights" (in contravention to animal welfare standards)
to clothing.... they can enter a till area with face and head covered ...i cant

now its gone even to policeing

they feel "they can do as they want and its "insulting and "radicalising" to be policed ....IN EXACTLY THE SAME way as the irish were at the height of the troubles and in exactly the SAME way as any group white black or purple with green spots would be policed under the same circumstance

and once again...despite the fact that THIS TIME the issue is everyones safety

the lefty's want to crawl on their bellies to them and appologies and appease

PFFFT

I'm talking about reality. Ask yourself what came out of the Abu Ghraib scandal, Guantanamo Bay, and for that matter the U.S. Dept. of Homeland Security report on right-wing domestic terrorism. Terrorism increased. Terrorist organizations used it to recruit and build their numbers. More people died.

Now, do you know better than someone whose job was to figure out how to keep Muslims from being radicalized?

Or do you just believe in fighting stupid and not worrying about how much blood is shed?

Lord Foul wrote:Didge,,,its a regressive lefty thing

the object of attention pretends "victim status", squeals loud and they immediately buckle and give in

instead of handing out a hefty slap.

they have done it constantly and regularly for years....

Be fair ben is not stupid and not like veya, who will lash out like i can do.

Its finding balance here, we should not allow a poverty stricken situation or the worst discrmination, which makes people far more susceptible to being drawn to hate. Its also recognising which the left are appalling at of recognising that there are a sizeable group that promotes this hate and also that this group denies everything we have fought for years to obtain, near equality. This is where the left fall down, and its an absurd belief that they themselves will be deemed racist or prejudice for being critical of bad beliefs. This is the most idiotic aspect of leftism, we all are prejudiced, even lefties, forr example against child sex abiuse. But where many in the US will be ultimately prejudice against the Teq Party or republicans thwwy will not hold the same view to a Muslim, in case they think wrongly they are being prejudiced, ev en though they already are to the right wingers. Why is that okay to be intolerant of one belief, but of a similar intolerant belief make the poorest excuses?

Its the most contradictive bullshit ever found. They will happilly label just about every republican as the same, but would melt like the wicked witch of the west if ever doing the same of a belief systenm like islam. I mean to them, its okay to label every Republican or in the UK UKIP a racist, but they rightly do not apply the same to Muslims. We do niot apply the sam to Muslims, but they show the worst hypocrisy, by doing what they claim we do, but wjat we never actually do. They would back any stance or petition for example to ban Trump. Yet if the same was of a Muslim extremist, then as if by magic, the same principles they hold are thrown out of the window. Thy allow some regresive groups or people themselves to be allowed a free pass they would never offer or provide to a republican or a UKIP member.

That is where the regressive left go utterly wrong, they label all on the right as one, when some of use whether left or right do not label all Muslims and far from it