Putin calls Turkey 'accomplices of terrorists' after Russian jet shot down

by Guest Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:11 pm

First topic message reminder :

Turkey says its jets have shot down a warplane near Syrian border
Russia says an SU-24 fighter jet was shot down over Syria
Putin’s spokesman calls it ‘a very serious event’
Turkey releases radar images of the jet over its airspace
Nato to hold extraordinary council meeting on Turkey’s request

Putin warns Turkey of “significant consequences”.
Speaking ahead of his King Abdullah II of Jordan in Sochi, the Russian leader gave said:

This event is beyond the normal framework of fighting against terrorism. Of course our military is doing heroic work against terrorism... But the loss today is a stab in the back, carried out by the accomplices of terrorists. I can’t describe it in any other way. Our aircraft was downed over the territory of Syria, using air-to-air missile from a Turkish F-16. It fell on the Syrian territory 4km from Turkey.
Neither our pilots nor our jet threatened the territory of Turkey. This is obvious. They are fighting terrorists in the northern areas around Latakia, where militants are located, mainly people who originated in Russia, and they were pursuing their direct duty, to make sure these people do not return to Russia. These are people who are clearly international terrorists.
Taking into account that we signed an agreement on deconflicting with the US, and as we know Turkey was among the ones that has joined the US coalition. Since Isis has such huge resources of hundreds of millions and billions of dollars coming from illicit oil sales, and they are protected by the armed forces of other states, then it’s clear why they are so brazen, why they are killing people, why they are carrying out terrorist attacks throughout the world including in the heart of Europe.
We will analyse everything, and today’s tragic event will have significant consequences, including for Russia-Turkish relations. We have always treated Turkey as a friendly state. I don’t know who was interested in what happened today, certainly not us. And instead of immediately getting in contact with us, as far as we know, the Turkish side immediately turned to their partners from Nato to discuss this incident, as if we shot down their plane and not they ours.

Updated at 1.03pm

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-jet-downed-by-turkish-planes-near-syrian-border-live-updates

Both the pilots were killed

And so it escalates.

by Original Quill Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:24 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Meh...Putin is a paper tiger. He's a lot more interested in building his cult of bare-chested admirers, than he is in getting his ass clipped. He's big on invading third-world nations, but a NATO country is a different matter.

Here's France, with the super-carrier Charles de Gaulle in place in the eastern Med, begging NATO for assistance. Russia starts fookin' with a NATO country and what's France going to do? Not see things NATO's way? I doubt it Alice.

Putin's between a rock and a hard place on this one.

I agree that Putin won't take on NATO. They want him to concentrate on ISIS though rather than the rebels, and trivialising the shooting down of the plane, or blaming him for being angry, isn't going to get him to co-operate.

What you urge--a symbiosis of aims between NATO and Russia--has been urged by the President from the beginning. However, at some point those interests diverge.

NATO wants to beat ISIL. Russia wants to secure its southern border, and is betting on Assad as the best candidate. The west has over 60-members to its coalition. Russia has itself and Iran in Assad's corner. If Russia thought that ISIL could benefit it, she'd be over there. It's a tenuous basis for a merger.

by Raggamuffin Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:14 am

Turkey has apparently released a recording of the warnings given to the Russian jet crew, but the surviving navigator, Konstantin Murakhtin, has said that he didn't receive any, and that he never strayed out of Syria.

The pilot who died was Lieutenant Colonel Oleg Peshkov.

Meanwhile, Putin says he will put anti-aircraft missiles in Syria, presumably to protect Russian jets.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/25/second-russian-pilot-shot-down-turkey-alive-ambassador

by Guest Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:24 am

And Cameron wants us to get involved! Sheeeeesh!

by Raggamuffin Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:27 am

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I agree that Putin won't take on NATO. They want him to concentrate on ISIS though rather than the rebels, and trivialising the shooting down of the plane, or blaming him for being angry, isn't going to get him to co-operate.

What you urge--a symbiosis of aims between NATO and Russia--has been urged by the President from the beginning. However, at some point those interests diverge.

NATO wants to beat ISIL. Russia wants to secure its southern border, and is betting on Assad as the best candidate. The west has over 60-members to its coalition. Russia has itself and Iran in Assad's corner. If Russia thought that ISIL could benefit it, she'd be over there. It's a tenuous basis for a merger.

Yes it is, because different countries have different aims. There's a lot of nagging at Putin to concentrate on ISIS and to leave the rebels alone, but nobody seems to have said much to the Turks for targeting Kurds rather than ISIS. I daresay that after the near collapse of the EU on the issue of the refugee crisis, nobody wants to cause friction in NATO as well.

by Raggamuffin Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:28 am

sassy wrote:And Cameron wants us to get involved! Sheeeeesh!

I know! That's in solidarity with France of course after the Paris attack, but is it wise?

by Guest Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:30 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
sassy wrote:And Cameron wants us to get involved! Sheeeeesh!

I know! That's in solidarity with France of course after the Paris attack, but is it wise?

As nobody knows who is doing what to whom and when they are doing it, and killing thousands of civilians in the process, while not stopping ISIS, because you can't stop an idea with bombs, not wise at all.

by Raggamuffin Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:35 am

sassy wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

I know! That's in solidarity with France of course after the Paris attack, but is it wise?

As nobody knows who is doing what to whom and when they are doing it, and killing thousands of civilians in the process, while not stopping ISIS, because you can't stop an idea with bombs, not wise at all.

The problem is that if the UK don't get more involved, it would be like abandoning France. Of course, France refused to get involved in the Iraq invasion, but that was different. If we don't help France out, it's like saying - we're alright Jack - until we get a massive terrorist attack here, and then we'll want France to help out.

by Raggamuffin Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:43 am

Well this is the recording. If it sounded like that, no wonder the Russian pilot didn't understand it.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34929242

by Guest Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:45 am

Couldn't make head nor tail of it!

by Raggamuffin Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:45 am

In any case, according to the transcript, the jet was in Syria and was merely approaching Turkey at the time. That's not proof that the jet actually entered Turkish airspace.

by Guest Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:46 am

Whole thing is a complete mess.

by Raggamuffin Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:48 am

sassy wrote:Whole thing is a complete mess.

Yes. So now if a Turkish jet in Turkey goes too close to the border with Syria, or strays into Syria for a few seconds, will the Russians be able to justify shooting it down on the grounds that it was a threat to their own jets?

by Guest Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:50 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
sassy wrote:Whole thing is a complete mess.

Yes. So now if a Turkish jet in Turkey goes too close to the border with Syria, or strays into Syria for a few seconds, will the Russians be able to justify shooting it down on the grounds that it was a threat to their own jets?

Probably, and from there it will escalate. Utter madness.

by Original Quill Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:32 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

What you urge--a symbiosis of aims between NATO and Russia--has been urged by the President from the beginning. However, at some point those interests diverge.

NATO wants to beat ISIL. Russia wants to secure its southern border, and is betting on Assad as the best candidate. The west has over 60-members to its coalition. Russia has itself and Iran in Assad's corner. If Russia thought that ISIL could benefit it, she'd be over there. It's a tenuous basis for a merger.

Yes it is, because different countries have different aims. There's a lot of nagging at Putin to concentrate on ISIS and to leave the rebels alone, but nobody seems to have said much to the Turks for targeting Kurds rather than ISIS. I daresay that after the near collapse of the EU on the issue of the refugee crisis, nobody wants to cause friction in NATO as well.

The Kurds are just 'other' terrorists to Turkey. For them, it's no sense to fight ISIL and not do the same with the Kurds.

It's a good fight to stay out of.

by Raggamuffin Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:50 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Yes it is, because different countries have different aims. There's a lot of nagging at Putin to concentrate on ISIS and to leave the rebels alone, but nobody seems to have said much to the Turks for targeting Kurds rather than ISIS. I daresay that after the near collapse of the EU on the issue of the refugee crisis, nobody wants to cause friction in NATO as well.

The Kurds are just 'other' terrorists to Turkey. For them, it's no sense to fight ISIL and not do the same with the Kurds.

It's a good fight to stay out of.

Yes, and to the Russians, the rebels are probably terrorists as well. The point is that Putin is hardly likely to co-operate because of the hypocrisy. The French and others want him to join in with trying to oust Assad, but that's their agenda, not his.

by Guest Thu Nov 26, 2015 4:57 pm

All getting very nasty, very quickly.

by Raggamuffin Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:01 pm

sassy wrote:All getting very nasty, very quickly.

Yes. I'm finding it most interesting.

As a request, it would be good if news relating to the topic could be put in this thread - just to keep the continuity. Just asking of course.

by Guest Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:03 pm

Good idea.

by Guest Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:10 pm

Bit of information:

Putin calls Turkey 'accomplices of terrorists' after Russian jet shot down - Page 2 CUwN1zdWwAEJ1ZV

by Raggamuffin Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:11 pm

How is that relevant to this topic?

by Raggamuffin Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:15 pm

Well now the Turks have implied that Russia should apologise for the jet going into their airspace. Do they have a death wish or something? Perhaps they think that Russia is to blame for the death of the pilot.

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/26/middleeast/syria-turkey-russia-warplane-shot-down/

by Victorismyhero Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:21 pm

Putin earlier today made the rather disturbing statement that he was going to have turkey for christmas affraid

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< BAD LORD FOUL>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

by Irn Bru Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:27 am

This could all get really messy what with Russia imposing economic sanction on Turkey some of which are quite serious.

They had better be careful because Turkey holds the keys that could enable them to lock the Russian Naval fleet within the Black Sea or lock out the ships already outside.

That would really be a major escalation in their current conflict but you just don't know with the Turks or the Russians.

Hold on to your hats (Steel one's)

by veya_victaous Tue Dec 01, 2015 12:31 am

Lord Foul wrote:Putin earlier today made the rather disturbing statement that he was going to have turkey for christmas

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< BAD LORD FOUL>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

Putin calls Turkey 'accomplices of terrorists' after Russian jet shot down - Page 2 Z

by Raggamuffin Tue Dec 01, 2015 11:46 am

Putin is accusing the Turks of shooting down the jet to protect the oil trade with ISIS. Erdogan says he'll resign if there's any proof of this.

Putin is still raging isn't he? The trouble is that it's hard to know when he's being accurate and when he's coming up with all kinds of stuff because he's pissed off about that jet being downed and the pilot murdered, along with at least one member of the rescue helicopter crew.

Yes, I know there's a new thread on this, but I like this thread and there was no need for a new one.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/12026131/Vladimir-Putin-claims-Turkey-shot-down-Russian-jet-to-protect-oil-trade-with-Isil.html

by Original Quill Tue Dec 01, 2015 2:18 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Putin is accusing the Turks of shooting down the jet to protect the oil trade with ISIS. Erdogan says he'll resign if there's any proof of this.

Putin is still raging isn't he? The trouble is that it's hard to know when he's being accurate and when he's coming up with all kinds of stuff because he's pissed off about that jet being downed and the pilot murdered, along with at least one member of the rescue helicopter crew.

Yes, I know there's a new thread on this, but I like this thread and there was no need for a new one.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/russia/12026131/Vladimir-Putin-claims-Turkey-shot-down-Russian-jet-to-protect-oil-trade-with-Isil.html

You raise a good point. Putin is the old director of the KGB, under the communist regime. He's a spy, and spies lie for a living. I'm envisioning a situation in which this whole thing was engineered for some reason.

Here's a choice opportunity: this little peninsula hangs down from Turkey into Syria, and all you have to do is tell your pilots to fly across it and scoot back into Syria. A rocket couldn't be launched quick enough to keep all of the evidence from falling right in your own hands...you you control the evidence, you deny the jets were in Syria, and voilà...you've got the incident you need.

Question is: for what? Why would Russia want to create an incident adverse to Turkey?

by Guest Tue Dec 01, 2015 4:43 pm

Turns Out, Russia Was Right: ISIL Oil is Going to Turkey – German Media

Russian airstrikes on jihadists’ oil infrastructure caused natural dissatisfaction of Turkey that appears to be the main consumer of ISIL’s oil, according to the German media.

In the wake of downing of the Russian Su-24 bomber jet by Turkish Air Force president Putin claimed that Ankara appears to be an accomplice of terrorists, as it is purchasing oil in regions of Syria captured by extremists, and he is on solid ground in saying so, the German newspaper Bild reported.
Turkey has turned into a major consumer of oil from the so-called Islamic State extremist group, the author of the article continued. Turkish businessmen sign deals on oil purchases with jihadists, allowing them to get revenues of $10 million weekly.
The Kremlin long time ago obtained information that oil from ISIL-seized territories in Syria is being transferred to Turkey. And the fact that Russian Aerospace Forces started to conduct more attacks against ISIL infrastructure couldn’t be overlooked by Ankara.

According to Bild, Turkish policies regarding jihadists are not quite transparent: although Ankara provided Americans with opportunities to use the country’s airbase for launching attacks against ISIL positions, Erdogan allows terrorists sneaking into Syria to go through Turkey without hindrance.
At the same time, Bild notes, Turkey is not the only state that is making dirty oil deals with Islamic State militants for its own profit. Smugglers supply Jordan and Kurdistan, in which black market trade is flourishing, with ISIL oil, Eckart Woertz, the senior analyst for Barcelona Centre for International Affairs, claimed.
Russian President Vladimir Putin, after a press-conference with the French President François Hollande, said that significant amounts of oil from ISIL-controlled areas in Syria is being transported to Turkey:
“We are speaking about industrial-scale supplies of oil from Syrian territories seized by terrorists — from these exact areas and not from any others. And we can observe from the air where those cars are heading to,” the president announced. “They are moving to Turkey day and night.”

Read more: http://sputniknews.com/politics/20151128/1030895284/Russia-Right-ISIL-OilI-Going-Turkey.html#ixzz3t5Wknv9L

It's long been suspected that Turkey were buying the low priced ISIS oil, been in reports in many countries, including USA. As ISIS are making millions every week from this, might be an idea to have this top of the agenda, not bombing Raqqa which will just result in the killing of more innocent children.

by nicko Tue Dec 01, 2015 6:23 pm

And the EU wants them to join Their "club"

by Original Quill Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:06 pm

NATO was first formed in April 1949 with 12 original members (two North American nations and 10 states in Northern and Western Europe). Turkey and its neighbor Greece (another nation remote from the shores of the Atlantic) joined NATO in February 1952, marking the first time the alliance made any kind of enlargement.

Turkey is a member of the UN, NATO, OECD, OSCE, OIC and the G-20. After becoming one of the first members of the Council of Europe in 1949, Turkey became an associate member of the EEC in 1963, joined the EU Customs Union in 1995. Although Croatia has been accepted in the EU, Turkey, which started application at the same time, has not been accepted.

Turkey was very instrumental to NATO, particularly in the 50's and the 60's, because numerous watch-sites were built along the Black Sea to observe things in the USSR. Indeed, those sites played a considerable part in the Cuban Missile Crisis, as the Russians posted missiles in Cuba as the quid-pro-quo for Turkey. Turkey still hosts Incerlik Air Force Base, gateway to the Middle East.

Putin calls Turkey 'accomplices of terrorists' after Russian jet shot down - Page 2 Geographical_map_turkey

Putin calls Turkey 'accomplices of terrorists' after Russian jet shot down - Page 2 Geographical_map_turkey

by Original Quill Tue Dec 01, 2015 7:22 pm

sassy wrote:It's long been suspected that Turkey were buying the low priced ISIS oil, been in reports in many countries, including USA. As ISIS are making millions every week from this, might be an idea to have this top of the agenda, not bombing Raqqa which will just result in the killing of more innocent children.

Although termed "dirty oil deals" and "black market trade" in your article, no law actually prohibits trading in fungible oil product. These are Turkish traders, not to be confused with the Turkish government.

Only back in the 70's did the US try to restrict oil according to source, leading to ridiculous practices as compartmentalizing oil tankers so that product from different sources didn't mix. Craig Copetas, Metal Men: How Marc Rich Defrauded the Country, Evaded the Law, and Became the World's Most Sought-After Corporate Criminal (2001). That law has has been rescinded.

by Raggamuffin Thu Dec 03, 2015 12:35 pm

Putin isn't about to let this go. He said that Turkey will regret shooting down the Russian jet, and that Russia's reaction will not be limited to trade sanctions.

I wonder if he just means that he will continue to accuse the Turkish Government of aiding and abetting ISIS, or if he means something else.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34993629

by Original Quill Thu Dec 03, 2015 4:58 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Putin isn't about to let this go. He said that Turkey will regret shooting down the Russian jet, and that Russia's reaction will not be limited to trade sanctions.

I wonder if he just means that he will continue to accuse the Turkish Government of aiding and abetting ISIS, or if he means something else.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-34993629

The ball is in his court.

by Guest Fri Dec 04, 2015 8:45 am

Bombshell: The Turkish Assault on Russia’s SU-24 was Guided by U.S. Air Force [Boeing E-3 Sentry AWACS radar plane]
by hilw3

Russia Insider reports that the ambush on the Russian U-24 bomber was guided by the US Airforce.

In an interview with the Russian news agency Regnum, a Russian military expert said that “A US Air Force Boeing E-3 Sentry AWACS plane took off on 24 November from the Preveza airbase in Greece.

A second E-3A of the Saudi Arabian air force took off from the Riyadh airbase.

Both planes were executing a common task—determining the precise location of Russian aircraft. It is they that picked the “victim.”

The American E-3A was supposed to determine the activity of the Su-24M2′s onboard targeting radar, to determine if it was in search mode or if it had already locked on to a target and was processing launch-data. It is known that the AWACS can direct the activity of aircraft in battle, conveying information to their avionics and flight computers.

The expert went on explaining the technical details of how the US and Saudi AF planes guided the Turkish F-16s to a sure missile launch in ‘target illumination’ mode, meaning that the radar was turned off as soon as the missile locket into its target.

A U.S. Air Force Boeing E-3 Sentry AWACS plane took off on 24 November from the Preveza airbase in Greece. A second E-3A of the Saudi Arabian air force took off from the Riyadh airbase. Both planes were executing a common task—determining the precise location of Russian aircraft. It is they that picked the “victim.”

The American E-3A was supposed to determine the activity of the Su-24M2’s onboard targeting radar, to determine if it was in search mode or if it had already locked on to a target and was processing launch data. It is known that the AWACS can direct the activity of aircraft in battle, conveying information to their avionics and flight computers.

More at:

https://syrianfreepress.wordpress.com/2015/12/04/usa-guided-su-24-attack/

If that is what the Russians believe, they aren't going to let it go.

by Raggamuffin Fri Dec 04, 2015 9:17 am

So the Russians think that the US aided and abetted Turkey in shooting down the jet? I can't find any other reports of this, but if that's what they believe there will be trouble. I think what's infuriating Putin is that the US and other NATO members keep telling him to stop fussing over this jet and that Turkey was in the right. Of course they would say that if the US had any involvement.

by Original Quill Fri Dec 04, 2015 4:49 pm

The Syrian Free Press is not exactly an objective news source. As you c&p the article, notice that it repeats itself:

SFP wrote:a Russian military expert said that “A US Air Force Boeing E-3 Sentry AWACS plane took off on 24 November from the Preveza airbase in Greece.

A second E-3A of the Saudi Arabian air force took off from the Riyadh airbase.

Both planes were executing a common task—determining the precise location of Russian aircraft. It is they that picked the “victim.”

and then lower down in the article:

SFP wrote:A U.S. Air Force Boeing E-3 Sentry AWACS plane took off on 24 November from the Preveza airbase in Greece. A second E-3A of the Saudi Arabian air force took off from the Riyadh airbase. Both planes were executing a common task—determining the precise location of Russian aircraft. It is they that picked the “victim.”

And...

SFP wrote:The American E-3A was supposed to determine the activity of the Su-24M2′s onboard targeting radar, to determine if it was in search mode or if it had already locked on to a target and was processing launch-data. It is known that the AWACS can direct the activity of aircraft in battle, conveying information to their avionics and flight computers.

...when contrasted to lower in the article:

SFP wrote:The American E-3A was supposed to determine the activity of the Su-24M2’s onboard targeting radar, to determine if it was in search mode or if it had already locked on to a target and was processing launch data. It is known that the AWACS can direct the activity of aircraft in battle, conveying information to their avionics and flight computers.

So the attempt to 'make weight' in the argument is reduced to an amateurish repetition of the allegations. Of course, it is evident in the should haves's ("supposed to...") and would have's ("...explaining the technical details) throughout the putative factual description. This confirms that the article is a value-laden piece of propaganda, not a source of valid fact.

The article states later, below the fold...

SFP wrote:The leaders involved in this heinous aggression should clearly be subjected to a Nuremberg style tribunal with all its dire consequences. Instead, hypocrite Obama in a side meeting of the Paris COP21 conference laments the event to President Putin, while still supporting Turkey in their right of self-defense.

Apparently all objectivity is tossed to the wind.,,oh fuck it, let's call 'em "heinous aggressors" and "hypocrites" and liken them to Nazis, who were prosecuted at "a Nuremberg style tribunal with all its dire consequences..."

Ran out of facts to repeat, I guess.

by Raggamuffin Mon Dec 07, 2015 11:34 am

A nice bit of scaremongering by the Express.

A RUSSIAN 'Doomsday' plane which is used in the event of nuclear war and is 'invisible' could be ready to launch in the next TWO WEEKS.

Despite military experts saying the multimillion weapon will not be ready for operations until the end of 2015, it’s reported Mr Putin has ordered for it to be ready in just two weeks time as tensions flare between Russia and Turkey.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/624421/Russian-Doomsday-plane-nuclear-war-launch-two-weeks

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