Putin calls Turkey 'accomplices of terrorists' after Russian jet shot down

by Guest Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:11 pm

Turkey says its jets have shot down a warplane near Syrian border
Russia says an SU-24 fighter jet was shot down over Syria
Putin’s spokesman calls it ‘a very serious event’
Turkey releases radar images of the jet over its airspace
Nato to hold extraordinary council meeting on Turkey’s request

Putin warns Turkey of “significant consequences”.
Speaking ahead of his King Abdullah II of Jordan in Sochi, the Russian leader gave said:

This event is beyond the normal framework of fighting against terrorism. Of course our military is doing heroic work against terrorism... But the loss today is a stab in the back, carried out by the accomplices of terrorists. I can’t describe it in any other way. Our aircraft was downed over the territory of Syria, using air-to-air missile from a Turkish F-16. It fell on the Syrian territory 4km from Turkey.
Neither our pilots nor our jet threatened the territory of Turkey. This is obvious. They are fighting terrorists in the northern areas around Latakia, where militants are located, mainly people who originated in Russia, and they were pursuing their direct duty, to make sure these people do not return to Russia. These are people who are clearly international terrorists.
Taking into account that we signed an agreement on deconflicting with the US, and as we know Turkey was among the ones that has joined the US coalition. Since Isis has such huge resources of hundreds of millions and billions of dollars coming from illicit oil sales, and they are protected by the armed forces of other states, then it’s clear why they are so brazen, why they are killing people, why they are carrying out terrorist attacks throughout the world including in the heart of Europe.
We will analyse everything, and today’s tragic event will have significant consequences, including for Russia-Turkish relations. We have always treated Turkey as a friendly state. I don’t know who was interested in what happened today, certainly not us. And instead of immediately getting in contact with us, as far as we know, the Turkish side immediately turned to their partners from Nato to discuss this incident, as if we shot down their plane and not they ours.

Updated at 1.03pm

http://www.theguardian.com/world/live/2015/nov/24/russian-jet-downed-by-turkish-planes-near-syrian-border-live-updates

Both the pilots were killed

And so it escalates.

by Victorismyhero Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:28 pm

perhaps the question now needs to be asked....

just who's side is turkey on

whilst the current leadership wants the advantages (as they see it) of being in bed with the EU and NATO....their leadership is hardly what I would call EURO or even western, friendly

what game are they playing....???

by Victorismyhero Tue Nov 24, 2015 2:30 pm

we could perhaps start with wondering what nasty little game they are playing at americas behest....

by Raggamuffin Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:19 pm

I can't remember whose side Turkey is on, but they need to stop shooting at Russian planes.

by Raggamuffin Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:20 pm

I just edited my last post as I thought the crew got out, but it seems they died. Turkey is out of order.

by Guest Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:29 pm

Been updated on the same link:

It’s a tough day for Moscow. The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights reports that Syrian fighters destroyed a Russian helicopter with a missile, shortly after they forced it to make an emergency landing in a nearby government-held area in Syria’s Latakia province.

A Syrian insurgent group, which receives US Tow missiles, said its fighters hit the helicopter with an anti-tank missile while it was in the air and put out a video showing the helicopter being blown up after one of its fighters struck it with another missile.

Rami Abdulrahman from the Observatory said at least 10 people were on the helicopter when it was hit but they were all evacuated when it landed and before the missile destroyed it.

and

No great surprise this, but Russia’s Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov has cancelled a planned visit to Turkey.

Lavrov was due to visit Ankara on Wednesday for bilateral talks. Turkish officials had insited it would go ahead as planned.

Lavrov, speaking to reporters in the southern Russian city of Sochi, advised Russians not to visit Turkey and said the threat of terrorism there was the no less than in Egypt, where a bomb attack brought down a Russian passenger plane last month.

One of the possible retaliatory measures Russia could take would be ban flights to Turkey, as Moscow did with Egypt after the Metrojet bombing over Sinai last month, writes Shaun Walker. There are dozens of flights a day between the two countries, so such a move would undoubtedly seriously affect trade and tourism.

What a bloody mess!

by Raggamuffin Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:41 pm

Did Turkey know it was a Russian plane before they shot it down? They don't like Assad, and the Russians are propping him up, which I think is the best course of action at the moment. The Turks will mess up any chance of progress at this rate.

by Original Quill Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:45 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Did Turkey know it was a Russian plane before they shot it down? They don't like Assad, and the Russians are propping him up, which I think is the best course of action at the moment. The Turks will mess up any chance of progress at this rate.

Apparently there was some communication back and forth. I should think if that didn't inform them, the fact that it was an SU-24 might have.

The Turks say it was shot down over Turkish airspace:

Reuters wrote:The Turkish military said the aircraft had been warned 10 times in the space of five minutes about violating Turkish air space. Officials said a second plane had also approached the border and been warned.

"The data we have is very clear. There were two planes approaching our border, we warned them as they were getting too close," a senior Turkish official told Reuters.

"We warned them to avoid entering Turkish air space before they did, and we warned them many times. Our findings show clearly that Turkish air space was violated multiple times. And they violated it knowingly," the official said.

Read more at Reuters

by Raggamuffin Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:52 pm

According to the Turkmen, it came down in Syria, unless the pilots floated into Syria on a magic carpet.

A deputy commander of rebel Turkmen forces in Syria said his men shot both pilots dead as they came down.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/11/24/uk-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-idUKKBN0TD0IS20151124

They shot the pilots, and then will carry on pretending they're the "goodies" in all this.

by Raggamuffin Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:55 pm

Even if the plane was in Turkish airspace, if they knew it was Russian they had no business shooting it down, or did they think the Russians were coming to kill them?

by Original Quill Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:57 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:According to the Turkmen, it came down in Syria, unless the pilots floated into Syria on a magic carpet.

A deputy commander of rebel Turkmen forces in Syria said his men shot both pilots dead as they came down.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/11/24/uk-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-idUKKBN0TD0IS20151124

They shot the pilots, and then will carry on pretending they're the "goodies" in all this.

I gather it was close. Of course, once you've been hit you would high-tail it back to legal air space, right?

If they shot the pilots, that would imply the Turks captured them. How did they lay hands on them if they were not in Turkish territory?

by Original Quill Tue Nov 24, 2015 4:59 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Even if the plane was in Turkish airspace, if they knew it was Russian they had no business shooting it down, or did they think the Russians were coming to kill them?

Well, what would the UK do in such a situation?

by Raggamuffin Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:00 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Even if the plane was in Turkish airspace, if they knew it was Russian they had no business shooting it down, or did they think the Russians were coming to kill them?

Well, what would the UK do in such a situation?

No idea.

I hope Putin goes and gets those bastard Turkmen now. Fancy shooting someone as they're parachuting down. Twats - backed by the Turks of course - I think.

by Raggamuffin Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:01 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:According to the Turkmen, it came down in Syria, unless the pilots floated into Syria on a magic carpet.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2015/11/24/uk-mideast-crisis-syria-turkey-idUKKBN0TD0IS20151124

They shot the pilots, and then will carry on pretending they're the "goodies" in all this.

I gather it was close. Of course, once you've been hit you would high-tail it back to legal air space, right?

If they shot the pilots, that would imply the Turks captured them. How did they lay hands on them if they were not in Turkish territory?

Turkmen, not Turks. The Turkmen are in Syria.

by Original Quill Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:15 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I gather it was close. Of course, once you've been hit you would high-tail it back to legal air space, right?

If they shot the pilots, that would imply the Turks captured them. How did they lay hands on them if they were not in Turkish territory?

Turkmen, not Turks. The Turkmen are in Syria.

Ahah...you said "they shot the pilots" and it wasn't clear.

So the Turkish authorities are blameless in the shooting of the pilots. Sounds like the Turks only did what the UK would do in a similar situation.

by Guest Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:19 pm

Russian planes frequently come close to our airspace, we then send up planes to escort them.

Seems to me this is becoming a proxy US/Russia war, Turkey is also armed by the US.

by Raggamuffin Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:19 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Turkmen, not Turks. The Turkmen are in Syria.

Ahah...you said "they shot the pilots" and it wasn't clear.

So the Turkish authorities are blameless in the shooting of the pilots. Sounds like the Turks only did what the UK would do in a similar situation.

The Turks shot the plane down, and the Turkmen shot the pilots, or one pilot.

The report said that Turkmen shot the pilots as they came down on parachutes. That's just one report though, and the details vary. I think they shot one, and possibly have the other.

Turkey is not absolved from blame. They shot the plane down, and obviously there's a good chance that the crew will die if their plane is shot down.

The Turks are protecting the Turkmen of course because they're fighting Assad. I would be rather suspicious of their claim that the plane was in Turkish airspace.

by Raggamuffin Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:28 pm

This report says the Turkmen got both pilots.

http://www.express.co.uk/news/world/621695/Russia-plane-shot-Turkey-pilot-dead-Syrian-rebels-Turkmen-Allahu-Akabar

How cowardly to shoot someone who's floating down on a parachute!

by Raggamuffin Tue Nov 24, 2015 6:03 pm

A lot of the news reports are assuming that the jet was indeed in Syria, so what will Putin do? He won't take any direct military action against Turkey because Turkey's in NATO. He could tell them that if Russian aircraft in Syria are threatened or targeted by the Turks, he will retaliate at the time I guess.

by Original Quill Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:38 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Ahah...you said "they shot the pilots" and it wasn't clear.

So the Turkish authorities are blameless in the shooting of the pilots. Sounds like the Turks only did what the UK would do in a similar situation.

The Turks shot the plane down, and the Turkmen shot the pilots, or one pilot.

The report said that Turkmen shot the pilots as they came down on parachutes. That's just one report though, and the details vary. I think they shot one, and possibly have the other.

The Turkmen were very cowardly in doing that. I'm glad they are not on our side.

Raggamuffin wrote:Turkey is not absolved from blame. They shot the plane down, and obviously there's a good chance that the crew will die if their plane is shot down.

Assumption of the risk. One of the oldest legal doctrines in the book, which certainly applies to warplanes.

In point of fact, a pilot usually survives if there is enough altitude to invoke safety equipment (parachutes, etc.).

Raggamuffin wrote:The Turks are protecting the Turkmen of course because they're fighting Assad. I would be rather suspicious of their claim that the plane was in Turkish airspace.

The battle is taking place in their neck of the woods. Would we do the like for Canada? Bet your ass we would.

In any event, I would doubt seriously if Turkey would shoot down a Russian plane had it not violated it's national air space. You don't do frivolous things in a war zone. Nobody needs that kind of nonsense.

by Original Quill Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:41 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:A lot of the news reports are assuming that the jet was indeed in Syria, so what will Putin do? He won't take any direct military action against Turkey because Turkey's in NATO. He could tell them that if Russian aircraft in Syria are threatened or targeted by the Turks, he will retaliate at the time I guess.

If the Russians weren't a paper tiger during the cold war, they certainly are now. I doubt that Putin wants to tangle with NATO.

by Original Quill Tue Nov 24, 2015 7:52 pm

sassy wrote:Russian planes frequently come close to our airspace, we then send up planes to escort them.

Seems to me this is becoming a proxy US/Russia war, Turkey is also armed by the US.

Well, the UK is not a war zone. It appears that Turkey made frequent attempts to communicate with the SU-24's pilots, to no avail. I doubt the UK would do less under the same circumstances.

As to your second point, I think there is some proxy going on, but not the way you think. I think that Russia is the proxy for the US in this one...if not intentionally, then the US has cleverly engineered it with a bit of international jiu jitsu.

Remember, the US is only doing anything in Syria, illegally. Congress passed a war bill for Iraq, back in 2003 (when GWB wanted it). But Congress has never passed a war bill authorizing war in Syria. Of course the President has defense response power, but what would the US be defending in Syria? I think the bombing in Syria is illegal.

And a Republican Congress has no inclination to grant anything to a black president. It is what it is. But they're not complaining, either.

by Raggamuffin Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:07 pm

Obama wants the Russians to concentrate more on ISIS. Who put him in charge then? If he hadn't armed those rebels, those pilots might still be alive, and that helicopter wouldn't have been shot down.

If it turns out that the Russian jet was in Syrian airspace, the Russians will have every right to shoot down any Turkish jet that they think is a threat to them.

by Guest Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:18 pm

sassy wrote:Russian planes frequently come close to our airspace, we then send up planes to escort them.

Seems to me this is becoming a proxy US/Russia war, Turkey is also armed by the US.

And that was a party Political broadcast by the deranged party.

It has long been suspected that Turkey has been aiding ISIS through many means, so if they shot down Russian planes its is far mor viable it was something underhanded this way.
Your obsession and hate of the west and its values clouds any reason you once had

by Raggamuffin Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:25 pm

Didge wrote:
sassy wrote:Russian planes frequently come close to our airspace, we then send up planes to escort them.

Seems to me this is becoming a proxy US/Russia war, Turkey is also armed by the US.

And that was a party Political broadcast by the deranged party.

It has long been suspected that Turkey has been aiding ISIS through many means, so if they shot down Russian planes its is far mor viable it was something underhanded this way.
Your obsession and hate of the west and its values clouds any reason you once had

I'm not sure what Sassy said wrong there.

Anyway, it's not clear what the Russian jet was doing there. Putin has implied that they were targeting ISIS, but it's possible that they were targeting Turkmen, or that Turkey thought that's what they were doing. I'm also not convinced that the Turks shot the jet down because it violated Turkish airspace. It's possible that they wanted to protect the Turkmen.

by Guest Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:55 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Didge wrote:

And that was a party Political broadcast by the deranged party.

It has long been suspected that Turkey has been aiding ISIS through many means, so if they shot down Russian planes its is far mor viable it was something underhanded this way.
Your obsession and hate of the west and its values clouds any reason you once had

I'm not sure what Sassy said wrong there.

Anyway, it's not clear what the Russian jet was doing there. Putin has implied that they were targeting ISIS, but it's possible that they were targeting Turkmen, or that Turkey thought that's what they were doing. I'm also not convinced that the Turks shot the jet down because it violated Turkish airspace. It's possible that they wanted to protect the Turkmen.

I didn't Rags. Them's the facts, those that shot down the jet were armed by USA, and this could escalate real easy.

by Guest Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:58 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Didge wrote:

And that was a party Political broadcast by the deranged party.

It has long been suspected that Turkey has been aiding ISIS through many means, so if they shot down Russian planes its is far mor viable it was something underhanded this way.
Your obsession and hate of the west and its values clouds any reason you once had

I'm not sure what Sassy said wrong there.

Anyway, it's not clear what the Russian jet was doing there. Putin has implied that they were targeting ISIS, but it's possible that they were targeting Turkmen, or that Turkey thought that's what they were doing. I'm also not convinced that the Turks shot the jet down because it violated Turkish airspace. It's possible that they wanted to protect the Turkmen.

Again there are many cases of implict help coming from Turkey to ISIS, this is well documented.
There is no way of any evidence to suggest Turkey would do the bidding of the US or even for the US to command such an action against the Russians, even more so when untity is needed in the fight here against ISIS. Again there is much corruption in Turkey and it is very much sweeping more and more to a radical islamic view point

by Raggamuffin Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:05 pm

I don't think the US told the Turks to shoot down Russian planes, but the US is against Russia in some respects because they don't like the Russians attacking the rebels which the US have armed, and they don't like their support of Assad. The Turks are also against Assad, and they want to protect the rebels, so they are allies of the US in that respect

by Guest Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:08 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:I don't think the US told the Turks to shoot down Russian planes, but the US is against Russia in some respects because they don't like the Russians attacking the rebels which the US have armed, and they don't like their support of Assad. The Turks are also against Assad, and they want to protect the rebels, so they are allies of the US in that respect

Well Sassy was implying that the US was behind this, hence my point that it was nonsense.

by Guest Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:09 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:I don't think the US told the Turks to shoot down Russian planes, but the US is against Russia in some respects because they don't like the Russians attacking the rebels which the US have armed, and they don't like their support of Assad. The Turks are also against Assad, and they want to protect the rebels, so they are allies of the US in that respect

Summed up in a nutshell. The Turks also attack the Kurds, just to mix it up a bit more, and Camerloon wants to join in so he can feel like he's one of the boys and has a big dick.

by Guest Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:11 pm

Didge wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:I don't think the US told the Turks to shoot down Russian planes, but the US is against Russia in some respects because they don't like the Russians attacking the rebels which the US have armed, and they don't like their support of Assad. The Turks are also against Assad, and they want to protect the rebels, so they are allies of the US in that respect

Well Sassy was implying that the US was behind this, hence my point that it was nonsense.

You dickhead, I said the Turks are armed by USA, WHICH THEY ARE, and as the USA doesn't like Russia, it was becoming like a proxy war. I never once mentioned or implied that the USA has asked the Turks to do it. You really are a right nutter.

by Raggamuffin Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:12 pm

sassy wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:I don't think the US told the Turks to shoot down Russian planes, but the US is against Russia in some respects because they don't like the Russians attacking the rebels which the US have armed, and they don't like their support of Assad. The Turks are also against Assad, and they want to protect the rebels, so they are allies of the US in that respect

Summed up in a nutshell. The Turks also attack the Kurds, just to mix it up a bit more, and Camerloon wants to join in so he can feel like he's one of the boys and has a big dick.

Yes, and the Yanks don't like the Turks attacking the Kurds because the Kurds are attacking ISIS.

Personally, I'm with the Russians. I think that arming the rebels is just creating tomorrow's new enemy terrorist group(s). Assad can be dealt with later - possibly by negotiation.

by Guest Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:14 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
sassy wrote:

Summed up in a nutshell. The Turks also attack the Kurds, just to mix it up a bit more, and Camerloon wants to join in so he can feel like he's one of the boys and has a big dick.

Yes, and the Yanks don't like the Turks attacking the Kurds because the Kurds are attacking ISIS.

Personally, I'm with the Russians. I think that arming the rebels is just creating tomorrow's new enemy terrorist group(s). Assad can be dealt with later - possibly by negotiation.

I loathe Assad and all he has done, but whenever we, or the USA, interfere the shit hits the fan big time after a short while. Look at Libya etc.

by veya_victaous Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:25 am

Putin calls Turkey 'accomplices of terrorists' after Russian jet shot down Ujg4CNI

Well isn't it convenient..

Now Russia can give Eastern Syria to Assad
And
the West can give the Kurds the Western Syria
And
We can Tell Turkey to Suck it, they fucked up

by Original Quill Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:17 am

Raggamuffin wrote:Obama wants the Russians to concentrate more on ISIS. Who put him in charge then? If he hadn't armed those rebels, those pilots might still be alive, and that helicopter wouldn't have been shot down.

If it turns out that the Russian jet was in Syrian airspace, the Russians will have every right to shoot down any Turkish jet that they think is a threat to them.

I'm sure Obama is just trying to appease Republicans. They make so much noise. Evil or Very Mad

Really...it's not our concern.

by Original Quill Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:25 am

sassy wrote:
Didge wrote:

Well Sassy was implying that the US was behind this, hence my point that it was nonsense.

You dickhead, I said the Turks are armed by USA, WHICH THEY ARE, and as the USA doesn't like Russia, it was becoming like a proxy war. I never once mentioned or implied that the USA has asked the Turks to do it. You really are a right nutter.

The Turks are armed in the same way that the UK is armed by the US. As members of NATO they receive certain armaments.

The US has no particular beef with Russia. I like Russians. We have quite a community of them in SF. They're strange, but nice. I wouldn't marry one...but nice.

by Original Quill Wed Nov 25, 2015 6:41 am

Raggamuffin wrote:
sassy wrote:

Summed up in a nutshell. The Turks also attack the Kurds, just to mix it up a bit more, and Camerloon wants to join in so he can feel like he's one of the boys and has a big dick.

Yes, and the Yanks don't like the Turks attacking the Kurds because the Kurds are attacking ISIS.

Personally, I'm with the Russians. I think that arming the rebels is just creating tomorrow's new enemy terrorist group(s). Assad can be dealt with later - possibly by negotiation.

For Turkey, the Kurds are just another group of terrorists. Which they are. I think that Obama is making a mistake siding with them; it puts the US in opposition to a NATO ally.

Most of the arms picked up by ISIL has been off the Iraqi army, which the US supplied. It's vestiges of the old GWB/Cheney mayhem...we shouldn't be backing anybody in Iraq. I told them that, but who am I?

We have no business messing with any of it. Syria is practically the antipode to San Francisco, and for sure I have no concern for what goes on there.

by Raggamuffin Wed Nov 25, 2015 9:35 am

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Yes, and the Yanks don't like the Turks attacking the Kurds because the Kurds are attacking ISIS.

Personally, I'm with the Russians. I think that arming the rebels is just creating tomorrow's new enemy terrorist group(s). Assad can be dealt with later - possibly by negotiation.

For Turkey, the Kurds are just another group of terrorists. Which they are. I think that Obama is making a mistake siding with them; it puts the US in opposition to a NATO ally.

Most of the arms picked up by ISIL has been off the Iraqi army, which the US supplied. It's vestiges of the old GWB/Cheney mayhem...we shouldn't be backing anybody in Iraq. I told them that, but who am I?

We have no business messing with any of it. Syria is practically the antipode to San Francisco, and for sure I have no concern for what goes on there.

There are a lot of groups opposed to Assad. They might have something in common now, and so the US assumes that they're like-minded and that they're on the side of the US, which also opposes Assad. However, if they succeeded in getting rid of Assad with the help of the US, they'll turn on each other in a power struggle, and if the US backs one group over another, it will all start again.

The same applies to opposition to ISIS. The Kurds are opposed to ISIS, or anyone else who messes with them, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're the US's friend.

by Raggamuffin Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:07 am

According to reports, one of the pilots is OK. He was picked up by the Syrian army. I hope that's true - if he had got into the hands of the rebels, I doubt he'd be OK. It also suggests that the plane was indeed shot down in Syria.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34917485

by Guest Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:09 am

One bit of good news if that's true Rags. A very dodgy situation still, I can't see Putin leaving it at that.

by Raggamuffin Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:17 am

sassy wrote:One bit of good news if that's true Rags. A very dodgy situation still, I can't see Putin leaving it at that.

It is a bit of good news Sassy. I was pleased when I saw the video of the pilots parachuting down and thought they were safe, but then I read they were both shot by rebels. It's sad for the other guy obviously. It's also not clear what happened to the rescue helicopter crew.

by Guest Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:22 am

Yep, the rebels are claiming they hit it with a missile when it came down. This from The Guardian, they have had quite good coverage:

Putin was speaking in televised comments on Wednesday after the defence minister, Sergei Shoigu, told news agencies that the man was rescued in a 12-hour operation and is now “safe and sound” at Russia’s base in the government-controlled area in Syria.
Russia’s ambassador to France, Alexander Orlov, earlier told Europe-1 radio that the pilot “managed to escape and be rescued by the Syrian army” but did not elaborate.
The other pilot of the Su-24 jet was confirmed dead by the Russian military’s general staff on Tuesday, which also also said that a marine had died while on a rescue mission.

Turkmen militia in Syria claimed to have shot the pilots as they descended on parachutes from the stricken Su-24 bomber. The Turkmen rebels, who are supported by Ankara and who have been the target of earlier Russian bombing, broadcast a video of what appeared to be a dead Russian pilot.

They also posted footage appearing to show one of their missiles destroying a helicopter while it was on the ground, which they said was a Russian aircraft sent to rescue the downed Su-24 crew, although it was not possible to verify the footage.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/25/second-russian-pilot-shot-down-turkey-alive-ambassador

One way or another, a total screw up.

by Raggamuffin Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:28 am

sassy wrote:Yep, the rebels are claiming they hit it with a missile when it came down. This from The Guardian, they have had quite good coverage:

Putin was speaking in televised comments on Wednesday after the defence minister, Sergei Shoigu, told news agencies that the man was rescued in a 12-hour operation and is now “safe and sound” at Russia’s base in the government-controlled area in Syria.
Russia’s ambassador to France, Alexander Orlov, earlier told Europe-1 radio that the pilot “managed to escape and be rescued by the Syrian army” but did not elaborate.
The other pilot of the Su-24 jet was confirmed dead by the Russian military’s general staff on Tuesday, which also also said that a marine had died while on a rescue mission.

Turkmen militia in Syria claimed to have shot the pilots as they descended on parachutes from the stricken Su-24 bomber. The Turkmen rebels, who are supported by Ankara and who have been the target of earlier Russian bombing, broadcast a video of what appeared to be a dead Russian pilot.

They also posted footage appearing to show one of their missiles destroying a helicopter while it was on the ground, which they said was a Russian aircraft sent to rescue the downed Su-24 crew, although it was not possible to verify the footage.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/nov/25/second-russian-pilot-shot-down-turkey-alive-ambassador

One way or another, a total screw up.

It is a bit of a mess. I'd love to hear more about the rescue mission, so maybe there will be more details later.

I think the Turks still have a lot of explaining to do. There are reports that the jet was in Turkish airspace for 17 seconds or so, but it does seem that it was in Syria when it was shot down. It was in a tricky area really if you look at a map - there's a tiny bit of Turkey where it might have strayed for a short time, but it wasn't far enough in to justify it being shot down IMO.

I hope the helicopter crew are OK - if it was blown up when it was on the ground, they might have escaped.

by Guest Wed Nov 25, 2015 10:32 am

Looked at the map as well, went straight across the tiny bit that sticks out at the bottom of the map, was never headed in towards the main part of Turkey, and as you say, was in Syrian airspace when shot down. Just have to wait to see what happens, I expect plenty of frantic phone calls are being made to Putin.

by Raggamuffin Wed Nov 25, 2015 2:25 pm

Everyone seems to be urging Putin not to "over-react" to the shooting down of the Russian jet, and British newspapers have joined in. Perhaps it might help if Turkey was urged not to over-react to Russian jets which fly close to its border with Syria. Telling Putin to calm down will not help if they blame him for being angry at the loss of the jet at the hands of the Turks and the deaths of one of the pilots and probably the death of the helicopter crew as well.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2015/nov/25/uk-newspapers-call-on-vladimir-putin-to-keep-calm-over-downed-jet

by Original Quill Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:37 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

For Turkey, the Kurds are just another group of terrorists. Which they are. I think that Obama is making a mistake siding with them; it puts the US in opposition to a NATO ally.

Most of the arms picked up by ISIL has been off the Iraqi army, which the US supplied. It's vestiges of the old GWB/Cheney mayhem...we shouldn't be backing anybody in Iraq. I told them that, but who am I?

We have no business messing with any of it. Syria is practically the antipode to San Francisco, and for sure I have no concern for what goes on there.

There are a lot of groups opposed to Assad. They might have something in common now, and so the US assumes that they're like-minded and that they're on the side of the US, which also opposes Assad. However, if they succeeded in getting rid of Assad with the help of the US, they'll turn on each other in a power struggle, and if the US backs one group over another, it will all start again.

The same applies to opposition to ISIS. The Kurds are opposed to ISIS, or anyone else who messes with them, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're the US's friend.

I think you have just made the best argument for my contention: the US should stay out of it. Let Russia be the big dog in the fight this time.

by Original Quill Wed Nov 25, 2015 3:49 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:According to reports, one of the pilots is OK. He was picked up by the Syrian army. I hope that's true - if he had got into the hands of the rebels, I doubt he'd be OK. It also suggests that the plane was indeed shot down in Syria.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34917485

Putin calls Turkey 'accomplices of terrorists' after Russian jet shot down CUo_Nc_WwAUVJAG

The Russian was flying over a small peninsula of Turkish sovereign territory that extends down from the north into Syria. A look at the map shows that the Russian pilots were trying to short-cut the path east-to-west by entering, and flying over Turkish territory. The red dotted line shows the path that the Russians should have taken.

This explains why the debris field ended up in Syria.

by Original Quill Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:05 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:Everyone seems to be urging Putin not to "over-react" to the shooting down of the Russian jet, and British newspapers have joined in. Perhaps it might help if Turkey was urged not to over-react to Russian jets which fly close to its border with Syria. Telling Putin to calm down will not help if they blame him for being angry at the loss of the jet at the hands of the Turks and the deaths of one of the pilots and probably the death of the helicopter crew as well.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2015/nov/25/uk-newspapers-call-on-vladimir-putin-to-keep-calm-over-downed-jet

Meh...Putin is a paper tiger. He's a lot more interested in building his cult of bare-chested admirers, than he is in getting his ass clipped. He's big on invading third-world nations, but a NATO country is a different matter.

Here's France, with the super-carrier Charles de Gaulle in place in the eastern Med, begging NATO for assistance. Russia starts fookin' with a NATO country and what's France going to do? Not see things NATO's way? I doubt it Alice.

Putin's between a rock and a hard place on this one.

by Raggamuffin Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:13 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:Everyone seems to be urging Putin not to "over-react" to the shooting down of the Russian jet, and British newspapers have joined in. Perhaps it might help if Turkey was urged not to over-react to Russian jets which fly close to its border with Syria. Telling Putin to calm down will not help if they blame him for being angry at the loss of the jet at the hands of the Turks and the deaths of one of the pilots and probably the death of the helicopter crew as well.

http://www.theguardian.com/media/greenslade/2015/nov/25/uk-newspapers-call-on-vladimir-putin-to-keep-calm-over-downed-jet

Meh...Putin is a paper tiger. He's a lot more interested in building his cult of bare-chested admirers, than he is in getting his ass clipped. He's big on invading third-world nations, but a NATO country is a different matter.

Here's France, with the super-carrier Charles de Gaulle in place in the eastern Med, begging NATO for assistance. Russia starts fookin' with a NATO country and what's France going to do? Not see things NATO's way? I doubt it Alice.

Putin's between a rock and a hard place on this one.

I agree that Putin won't take on NATO. They want him to concentrate on ISIS though rather than the rebels, and trivialising the shooting down of the plane, or blaming him for being angry, isn't going to get him to co-operate.

by Raggamuffin Wed Nov 25, 2015 4:14 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:According to reports, one of the pilots is OK. He was picked up by the Syrian army. I hope that's true - if he had got into the hands of the rebels, I doubt he'd be OK. It also suggests that the plane was indeed shot down in Syria.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-34917485

The Russian was flying over a small peninsula of Turkish sovereign territory that extends down from the north into Syria. A look at the map shows that the Russian pilots were trying to short-cut the path east-to-west by entering, and flying over Turkish territory. The red dotted line shows the path that the Russians should have taken.

This explains why the debris field ended up in Syria.

It's possible that's what happened. However, if they were flying over that southern tip of Turkey, they were going to fly into Syria again in a short space of time. There was no need for Turkey to shoot the plane down. They must have been very close to the Syrian border, or in Syria when they were shot down.

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