If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS?

by eddie Sat Nov 21, 2015 9:12 pm

First topic message reminder :

What solutions would you offer? What strategies would you choose?
What are your answers?

Genuine answers and stay on topic Rolling Eyes

by Victorismyhero Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:13 pm

If I were a leader i'd first consider this

Question:

Are Muslims allowed to be friends with Christians, Jews or other non-Muslims?

Summary Answer:

Unbelievers are described by Muhammad (in the Qur'an) as "the vilest of animals" and "losers." Christians and Jews are hated by Allah to the extent that they are destined for eternal doom as a result of their beliefs. It would make no sense for Muhammad to then recommend that they be taken as friends by Muslims. In fact, the Qur'an plainly orders believers not to take unbelievers as friends.

The Qur'an:

Qur'an (5:51) - "O you who believe! do not take the Jews and the Christians for friends; they are friends of each other; and whoever amongst you takes them for a friend, then surely he is one of them; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people."

Qur'an (5:80) - "You will see many of them befriending those who disbelieve; certainly evil is that which their souls have sent before for them, that Allah became displeased with them and in chastisement shall they abide." Those Muslims who befriend unbelievers will abide in hell.

Qur'an (3:28) - "Let not the believers Take for friends or helpers Unbelievers rather than believers: if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah: except by way of precaution, that ye may Guard yourselves from them..." This last part means that the Muslim is allowed to feign friendship if it is of benefit. Renowned scholar Ibn Kathir states that "believers are allowed to show friendship outwardly, but never inwardly."

Qur'an (3:118) - "O you who believe! do not take for intimate friends from among others than your own people, they do not fall short of inflicting loss upon you; they love what distresses you; vehement hatred has already appeared from out of their mouths, and what their breasts conceal is greater still; indeed, We have made the communications clear to you, if you will understand." This verse not only warns Muslims not to take non-Muslims as friends, but suggests that that the rest of the world is out to get them and can't be trusted.

Qur'an (9:23) - "O ye who believe! Choose not your fathers nor your brethren for friends if they take pleasure in disbelief rather than faith. Whoso of you taketh them for friends, such are wrong-doers" Even family members are not to be taken as friends if they do not accept Islam. (There are harsher interpretations of this verse. The same (ninth) sura advocates "slaying the unbeliever wherever ye find them").

Qur'an (53:29) - "Therefore shun those who turn away from Our Message and desire nothing but the life of this world."

Qur'an (3:85) - "And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers."

Qur'an (3:10) - "(As for) those who disbelieve, surely neither their wealth nor their children shall avail them in the least against Allah, and these it is who are the fuel of the fire." Those who do not believe in Muhammad are but fuel for the fire of Hell (also 66:6, 2:24. 21:98).

Qur'an (7:44) - "The Companions of the Garden will call out to the Companions of the Fire: "We have indeed found the promises of our Lord to us true: Have you also found Your Lord's promises true?" They shall say, "Yes"; but a crier shall proclaim between them: "The curse of Allah is on the wrong-doers" Muslims in heaven will amuse themselves by looking down on non-Muslims in Hell and mocking them while they are being tortured (see 22:19-22.

Qur'an (1:5-7) - "Show us the straight path, The path of those whom Thou hast favoured; Not the (path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray" This is a prayer that Muslims are supposed to repeat each day. "Those who earn Thine anger" refers to Jews; "those who go astray" refers to Christians (see Bukhari (12:749)).

From the Hadith:

Muslim (1:417) - Taken to mean that one's own relatives should not be taken as friends if they are not Muslim.

Muslim (2167) - "Allah's Messenger said: Do not greet the Jews and the Christians before they greet you and when you meet any one of them on the roads force him to go to the narrowest part of it."

Abu Dawud (41:4815) - "The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: A man follows the religion of his friend; so each one should consider whom he makes his friend."

Abu Dawud (41:4832) - The Messenger of Allah [said] "Do not keep company with anyone but a believer and do not let anyone eat your food but one who is pious."

Bukhari (59:572) - "O you who believe! Take not my enemies And your enemies as friends offering them (Your) love even though they have disbelieved in that Truth (i.e. Allah, Prophet Muhammad and this Quran) which has come to you."

Ishaq 262 - "Some Muslims remained friends with the Jews, so Allah sent down a Qur'an forbidding them to take Jews as friends. From their mouths hatred has already shown itself and what they conceal is worse"

Ishaq 252 - The story of a young man who converts to Islam after hearing Muhammad. He then tells his own father that he can no longer have anything to do with him because, "I have become a Muslim and follow the religion of Muhammad." (To maintain a relationship with his son, the father "converts" as well). This is an important passage because it establishes that shunning is based merely on the status of non-Muslims as unbelievers, not on their behavior toward Muslims. In this case, the father desperately loved his son and meant him no harm.

Additional Notes:

Cultural superiority is a doctrine of Islam that actually has a name; it's called Jahiliyya - and literally means that any culture without Islam is "ignorant and stupid." Stunning bigotry by Islamic scholars is so casual that it often goes unnoticed. For example, a 2007 fatwa responds to a question on whether Muslims can swim in a pool in which a non-Muslim has swam:

If the size of the public pool is more than 225 sq ft (20.9 m2) then it is considered a large body of water and will not become impure by non-Muslims swimming in it. If the pool is less then 225 sq ft (20.9 m2), then if the non-Muslim had taken a bath before swimming, the water will be pure since there is no impurity on him. If he did not take a bath before swimming and it is certain that there was impurity on him before he swam, then the pool is impure and all the water must be removed and refilled with clean water.

Even though they are explicitly kufr (unbelievers, Qur'an 5:17, 4:44-59) Jews and Christians are given special status in the Quran. So, if Muhammad warned believers against taking them as friends, then it surely is not permissible for Muslims to befriend atheists or those of other religions.

Some Muslims interpret this to mean that they should not even act friendly toward nonbelievers; fortunately, many do not. Islamic TV preacher Sheikh Muhammad Hassan says that a Muslim is not permitted even to smile at a non-Muslim. A fatwa from Islam Q&A permits infidels to be dealt with "in a kind manner in the hope that they might become Muslim," but it warns Muslims against taking unbelievers as "sincere friends" (The same site also encourages Muslims to "stop keeping company with Christians and replace them with Muslim friends").

The book, al-Wala' wa'l-Bara', by Shaykh Muhammad Saeed al-Qahtani, lists 20 "types of alliances" with unbelievers that are forbidden to Muslims. These include "taking the disbelievers as friends," "trusting the disbelievers," "drawing near" to them and even living among them.

Some Muslims are embarrassed by verse 5:51 and go to elaborate lengths to modify its intent by interpreting the word "friend" as "guardian" or "protector" - which are two lesser translations of the Arabic word. According to these apologists, the verse is referring to a Muslim's allegiance to a non-Muslim government (which is not all that comforting either).

However, the word awliyaa is used in verse 5:51 instead of other words that would be more direct if the meaning were "protector" - such as hamin. In fact, the politically correct translations that do use the word "protector" turn right around and use the word "friend" in other places for the same Arabic word - such as in verse 10:62.

In fact, verse 10:62 proves that the word awliyaa truly means "friend" in the Quran and not "guardian" because it refers to associates of Allah (translated "friends of Allah"). If the word meant "guardian" then it would mean that Allah has guardians, which is blasphemy.

Apologists sometimes point to verse 60:8-9 which says that Allah doesn't necessarily forbid showing kindness to unbelievers, but to shun the ones "who warred against you on account of religion and have driven you out from your homes and helped to drive you out." This is an obvious reference to the Meccans, whose leaders expelled Muhammad and his handful of followers from their city (following his declaration of war against them).

The verse from Sura 60 was narrated shortly after the Muslims arrived in Medina, when it was necessary for the numerically disadvantaged Muslims to build alliances with non-Muslims in order to survive. However, the other verses are from Suras 9 and 5 - narrated at a later time and under much different circumstances, when Muslims had power. These verses expand the scope of unfriendliness to include anyone who is not Muslim.

Modern apologists such as Jamal Badawi try to cloud the straightforward interpretation of verse 5:51 by pointing out that Muslims are allowed to take non-Muslims as marriage partners, thus implying friendship. In truth, verse 2:221 explicitly forbids Muslims from marrying unbelievers, even though verse 5:5 allows it (Allah's change of mind corresponded somewhat curiously with Muhammad's own desire to marry a non-Muslim woman). Yusuf Ali reconciles the contradiction by saying that non-Muslims wives are "expected" to become Muslim.

In any event, only Muslim men are allowed to marry outside the faith. The women they marry relinquish control over their own lives, even to the extent that they cannot teach their faith to their own children, who must be raised Muslim. The non-Muslim woman also agrees to a lifetime of sexual servitude, and may be beaten if she does not submit.

This certainly doesn't sound like friendship to the rest of us. Moreover, if 'interfaith' marriage is about friendship between peers and not domination, then why are Muslim women banned from marrying non-Muslim men?

On the whole, Islam is very clear in teaching that there is no equality between believers and unbelievers, and hence no basis for friendship, which is a relationship between peers. Those who do not profess Muhammad are intended to exist in subjugation to those who do, then spend eternity in Hell. This does not preclude Muslims from acting friendly toward others, of course, but it does not constitute friendship as it is generally understood in the modern world.

from http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/quran/009-friends-with-christians-jews.htm

by Victorismyhero Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:17 pm

and then this.....

In the Quraan, it says that we can not take the Kuffaar as awliyaa, but what does that mean? I mean, to what degree? Can we do business with them still? If I'm at school, can we play basketball with them? Can we talk to them about basketball and stuff? Can we hang out with them as long as they keep their beliefs to themselves? The reason I ask is because someone I know does hang out with them in this way and it doesn't affect his beliefs, but I still tell him, "Why don't you hang out with the Muslims instead?" He says that most or many of the Muslims drink and take drugs where they hang out and they have girlfriends and he's afraid that the sins of the Muslims will lure him, yet he's sure that the Kufr of the Kaafirs will not lure him because that's something that isn't attractive to him. So is hanging out with them, playing sports with them, and talking with them about sports considered as "taking them as awliyaa instead of the believers" keeping in mind that he is doing that for his own eemaan?.
Praise be to Allaah.

Firstly:

Allaah has forbidden the believers to take the kaafireen (disbelievers) as friends, and He has issued a stern warning against doing that.

Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Awliyaa’ (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Awliyaa’ of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Awliyaa’), then surely, he is one of them. Verily, Allaah guides not those people who are the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust)”

[al-Maa’idah 5:51]

Shaykh al-Shanqeeti (may Allaah have mercy on him) said:

In this verse Allaah tells us that whoever takes the Jews and Christians as friends is one of them because of his taking them as friends. Elsewhere Allaah states that taking them as friends incurs the wrath of Allaah and His eternal punishment, and that if the one who takes them as friends was a true believer he would not have taken them as friends. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“You see many of them taking the disbelievers as their Awliyaa’ (protectors and helpers). Evil indeed is that which their ownselves have sent forward before them; for that (reason) Allaah’s Wrath fell upon them, and in torment they will abide.

81. And had they believed in Allaah, and in the Prophet (Muhammad) and in what has been revealed to him, never would they have taken them (the disbelievers) as Awliyaa’ (protectors and helpers); but many of them are the Faasiqoon (rebellious, disobedient to Allaah)”

[al-Maa’idah 5:80-81]

Elsewhere Allaah forbids taking them as friends and explains the reason for that, as He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Take not as friends the people who incurred the Wrath of Allaah (i.e. the Jews). Surely, they have despaired of (receiving any good in) the Hereafter, just as the disbelievers have despaired of those (buried) in graves (that they will not be resurrected on the Day of Resurrection)”

[al-Mumtahanah 60:13]

In another verse Allaah explains that this is so long as they are not taken as friends because of fear or taqiyah (i.e., being friendly with them in order to avoid harm); if that is the case then the one who does that is excused. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Let not the believers take the disbelievers as Awliyaa’ (supporters, helpers) instead of the believers, and whoever does that, will never be helped by Allaah in any way, except if you indeed fear a danger from them”

[Aal ‘Imraan 3:28]

This verse explains all the verses quoted above which forbid taking the kaafirs as friends in general terms. What that refers to is in cases where one has a choice, but in cases of fear and taqiyah it is permissible to make friends with them, as much as is essential to protect oneself against their evil. That is subject to the condition that one’s faith should not be affected by that friendship and the one who is behaves in that manner out of necessity is not one who behaves in that manner out of choice.

It may be understood from the apparent meaning of these verses that the one who deliberately takes the kuffaar as friends by choice and because he likes them, is one of them. End quote.

Adwa’ al-Bayaan, 2/98,99

One of the forms of making friends with the kaafirs which is forbidden is taking them as friends and companions, mixing with them and eating and playing with them.

In the answer to question no. 10342 we have quoted Shaykh Ibn Baaz as saying:

Eating with a kaafir is not haraam if it is necessary to do so, or if that serves some shar’i interest. But they should not be taken as friends, so you should not eat with them for no shar’i reason or for no shar’i purpose. You should not sit and chat with them and laugh with them. But if there is a reason to do so, such as eating with a guest, or to invite them to Islam or to guide them to the truth, or for some other shar’i reason, then it is OK.

The fact that the food of the People of the Book is halaal for us does not mean that we may take them as friends and companions. It does not mean that we may eat and drink with them for no reason and for no shar’i purpose.

Shaykh Muhammad al-Saalih al-‘Uthaymeen (may Allaah have mercy on him) was asked about the ruling on mixing with the kuffaar and treating them kindly hoping that they will become Muslim. He replied:

Undoubtedly the Muslim is obliged to hate the enemies of Allaah and to disavow them, because this is the way of the Messengers and their followers. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Indeed there has been an excellent example for you in Ibraaheem (Abraham) and those with him, when they said to their people: ‘Verily, we are free from you and whatever you worship besides Allaah, we have rejected you, and there has started between us and you, hostility and hatred for ever until you believe in Allaah Alone’”

[al-Mumtahanah 60:4]

“You (O Muhammad) will not find any people who believe in Allaah and the Last Day, making friendship with those who oppose Allaah and His Messenger (Muhammad), even though they were their fathers or their sons or their brothers or their kindred (people). For such He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with Rooh (proofs, light and true guidance) from Himself”

[al-Mujaadilah 58:22]

Based on this, it is not permissible for a Muslim to feel any love in his heart towards the enemies of Allaah who are in fact his enemies too. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Take not My enemies and your enemies (i.e. disbelievers and polytheists) as friends, showing affection towards them, while they have disbelieved in what has come to you of the truth”

[al-Mumtahanah 60:1]

But if a Muslim treats them with kindness and gentleness in the hope that they will become Muslim and will believe, there is nothing wrong with that, because it comes under the heading of opening their hearts to Islam. But if he despairs of them becoming Muslim, then he should treat them accordingly. This is something that is discussed in detail by the scholars, especially in the book Ahkaam Ahl al-Dhimmah by Ibn al-Qayyim (may Allaah have mercy on him).

Majmoo’ Fataawa al-Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen, 3, question no. 389.

Secondly:

With regard to what this person says about not mixing with sinful Muslims for fear that he may be tempted by their sins, but the kufr of the kuffaar does not tempt him, the answer to that is:

As for not mixing with Muslims who commit sin, he is doing well thereby, if he is not able to advise them and forbid them to do evil, and he fears that he may fall into the same sins and think it is something good.

With regard to mixing with the kuffaar, the reason why mixing with the kuffaar is not allowed is not only the fear that one may fall into kufr, rather the main reason for this ruling is their enmity towards Allaah and His Messenger and the believers. Allaah has indicated this reason in the verse where He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Take not My enemies and your enemies (i.e. disbelievers and polytheists) as friends, showing affection towards them, while they have disbelieved in what has come to you of the truth (i.e. Islamic Monotheism, this Qur’aan, and Muhammad), and have driven out the Messenger (Muhammad) and yourselves (from your homeland) because you believe in Allaah your Lord”

[al-Mumtahanah 60:1]

So how can it be appropriate for a Muslim to keep company with the enemy of Allaah and his enemy, and make friends with him?

How can he be certain that he will not start to think of their ways as good? Many Muslims have fallen into kufr and heresy and have apostatized from Islam because of keeping company with the kuffaar and living in their countries. Some of them have become Jews and some have become Christians, and some have embraced atheistic philosophies.

We ask Allaah to make us steadfast in following His religion.

See also the answer to question no. 2179, which explains the important principle of the prohibition on taking the kuffaar as close friends. It also describes many forms of the kinds of friendship that are forbidden.

In the answer to question no. 43270 you will find the ruling on saying that the morals and manners of the kuffaar are better than those of the Muslims, and there is a quotation from Shaykh Ibn Baaz on the prohibition on saying such a thing.

In the answer to question no. 26118 and 23325 it is stated that it is forbidden to keep company with the kuffaar and make friends with them.

And Allaah knows best.
from http://islamqa.info/en/59879

by Victorismyhero Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:19 pm

in other words NO Muslim can or will EVER be a true and proper friend to a non Muslim, and further more any that say they are are, indulging in the old established practice of taqiya.

by Victorismyhero Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:21 pm

then of course I would consider this

from http://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/259395/when-Muslims-betray-non-Muslim-friends-and-raymond-ibrahim

Raymond Ibrahim is a Shillman Fellow at the David Horowitz freedom Center.

Let believers not take for friends and allies infidels rather than believers: and whoever does this shall have no relationship left with Allah—unless you but guard yourselves against them, taking precautions – Koran 3:28

Days ago, after the Islamic State [IS] entered the Syrian city of Hassakè, prompting a mass exodus of Christians, a familiar, though often overlooked scene, took place: many otherwise “normal” Muslims joined ranks with IS, instantly turning on their longtime Christian neighbors.

This is the third category of Muslims that lurks between “moderates” and “radicals”: “sleepers,” Muslims who appear “moderate” but who are merely waiting for circumstances to turn to Islam’s advantage before they join the jihad; Muslims who are waiting for the rewards of jihad to become greater than the risks.

There is no lack of examples of these types of Muslims. The following are testimonials from non-Muslims, mostly Christian refuges from those regions of Iraq and Syria now under Islamic State (or other jihadi) control. Consider what they say about their longtime Sunni neighbors who appeared “moderate”—or at least nonviolent—but who, once the jihad came to town, exposed their true colors:

Georgios, a man from the ancient Christian town of Ma‘loula—one of the few areas in the world where the language of Christ was still spoken—told of how Muslim neighbors he knew all his life turned on the Christians after al-Nusra, another jihadi outfit, invaded in 2013:

We knew our Muslim neighbours all our lives. Yes, we knew the Diab family were quite radical, but we thought they would never betray us. We ate with them. We are one people.

A few of the Diab family had left months ago and we guessed they were with the Nusra [al-Qaeda front]. But their wives and children were still here. We looked after them. Then, two days before the Nusra attacked, the families suddenly left the town. We didn’t know why. And then our neighbours led our enemies in among us.

The Christian man explained with disbelief how he saw a young member of the Diab family whom he knew from youth holding a sword and leading foreign jihadis to Christian homes. Continues Georgios:

We had excellent relations. It never occurred to us that Muslim neighbours would betray us. We all said “please let this town live in peace — we don’t have to kill each other.” But now there is bad blood. They brought in the Nusra to throw out the Christians and get rid of us forever. Some of the Muslims who lived with us are good people but I will never trust 90 per cent of them again.

A teenage Christian girl from Homs, Syria—which once had a Christian population of approximately 80,000, but which is now reportedly zero—relates her story:

We left because they were trying to kill us. . . . They wanted to kill us because we were Christians. They were calling us Kaffirs [infidels], even little children saying these things. Those who were our neighbors turned against us. At the end, when we ran away, we went through balconies. We did not even dare go out on the street in front of our house. I’ve kept in touch with the few Christian friends left back home, but I cannot speak to my Muslim friends any more. I feel very sorry about that. (Crucified Again, p. 207)

When asked who exactly threatened and drove Christians out of Mosul, which fell to the Islamic State a year ago, another anonymous Christian refugee responded:

We left Mosul because ISIS came to the city. The [Sunni Muslim] people of Mosul embraced ISIS and drove the Christians out of the city. When ISIS entered Mosul, the people hailed them and drove out the Christians….

The people who embraced ISIS, the people who lived there with us… Yes, my neighbors. Our neighbors and other people threatened us. They said: “Leave before ISIS get you.” What does that mean? Where would we go?... Christians have no support in Iraq. Whoever claims to be protecting the Christians is a liar. A liar!

Nor is such Muslim treachery limited to Christians. Other “infidels,” Yazidis for example, have experienced the same betrayal. Discussing IS invasion of his village, a 68-year-old Yazidi man who managed to flee the bloody offensive—which included the slaughter of many Yazidi men and enslavement of women and children—said:

The (non-Iraqi) jihadists were Afghans, Bosnians, Arabs and even Americans and British fighters…. But the worst killings came from the people living among us, our (Sunni) Muslim neighbours…. The Metwet, Khawata and Kejala tribes—they were all our neighbours. But they joined the IS, took heavy weapons from them, and informed on who was Yazidi and who was not. Our neighbours made the IS takeover possible.

Likewise, watch this 60 Minute interview with a Yazidi woman. When asked why people she knew her whole life would suddenly join IS and savagely turn on her people, she replied:

I can’t tell you exactly, but it has to be religion. It has to be religion. They constantly asked us to convert, but we refused. Before this, they never mentioned it. Prior, we thought of each other as family. But I say, it has to be religion.

Lest it seem that this phenomenon of Sunni betrayal is limited to Islamic jihad in Mesopotamia, know that it has occurred historically and currently in other nations. The following anecdote from the Ottoman Empire is over 100 years old:

Then one night, my husband came home and told me that the padisha [sultan] had sent word that we were to kill all the Christians in our village, and that we would have to kill our neighbours. I was very angry, and told him that I did not care who gave such orders, they were wrong. These neighbours had always been kind to us, and if he dared to kill them Allah would pay us out. I tried all I could to stop him, but he killed them — killed them with his own hand. (Sir Edwin Pears, Turkey and Its People, London: Methuen and Co., 1911, p. 39)

And in Nigeria—a nation that shares little with Syria, Iraq, or Turkey, other than Islam—a jihadi attack on Christians that left five churches destroyed and several Christians killed was enabled by “local Muslims”:

The Muslims in this town were going round town pointing out church buildings and shops owned by Christians to members of Boko Haram, and they in turn bombed these churches and shops.

Such similar patterns of traitorous behavior—patterns that cross continents and centuries, patterns that regularly appear whenever Muslims live alongside non-Muslims—are easily understood by turning to Koran 3:28:

Let believers [Muslims] not take infidels [non-Muslims] for friends and allies instead of believers. Whoever does this shall have no relationship left with God—unless you but guard yourselves against them, taking precautions. But Allah cautions you [to fear] Himself. For the final goal is to Allah.

Here is how Islam’s most authoritative ulema and exegetes explain Koran 3:28:

Muhammad ibn Jarir at-Tabari (d. 923), author of a standard and authoritative commentary of the Koran, writes:

If you [Muslims] are under their [non-Muslims’] authority, fearing for yourselves, behave loyally to them with your tongue while harboring inner animosity for them … [know that] Allah has forbidden believers from being friendly or on intimate terms with the infidels rather than other believers—except when infidels are above them [in authority]. Should that be the case, let them act friendly towards them while preserving their religion.

Ibn Kathir (d. 1373), another prime authority on the Koran, writes:

The Most High said, “[U]nless you but guard yourselves against them, taking precautions”—that is, whoever at any time or place fears their evil may protect himself through outward show—not sincere conviction. As al-Bukhari records through Abu al-Darda the words [of the Prophet], “Truly, we grin to the faces of some peoples, while our hearts curse them.”

In other words, Muslims are not to befriend non-Muslims, unless circumstances are such that it is in the Muslims’ interests to do so. For example, if Muslims are a minority (as in America), or if their leaders brutally crack down on jihadi activities (as in Bashar Assad’s pre-Islamic State Syria): then they may preach and even feign peace, tolerance and coexistence with their non-Muslim neighbors.

However, if and when circumstances to make Islam supreme appear, Muslims are expected to join the jihad—“for the final goal is to Allah.”[1]

by veya_victaous Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:22 pm

Didge wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
Didge wrote:

Because fundementally it is Islamic extremism and terrorism that most people are having to deal with at present.
Jewish extremists?
List the countries under threat from them?
Compare the list of nations under Islamic terrorism?

In your own time

Cause the world has ALMOST solved it then time to work on the Christians

There has never been a global threat from Jewish extremism, only under the mindset of the Nazi's and today with Islamists. That may tell you something more about far right extremism and Islamic extremism

Jesus was a Jewish Extremist such a threat to the society he was executed Wink

2000 years on and this monotheist lot are still a threat to the world

by Guest Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:27 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
Didge wrote:

There has never been a global threat from Jewish extremism, only under the mindset of the Nazi's and today with Islamists. That may tell you something more about far right extremism and Islamic extremism

Jesus was a Jewish Extremist such a threat to the society he was executed 2000 years on and this monotheist lot are still a threat to the world

That is not a jewish global threat Veya, but a threat to a region of the world.
Where actually Jesus was not executed for any extremism, but for claiming to be a king.
Christinianity maybe a problem in parts of the US and Africa but again it is not a global threat.

@ Victor, this is the problem with the Abrahamic faiths and even more prominent in Islam, what I can religious racism and why they teach the worst forms of discrmination.

by veya_victaous Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:28 pm

Lord Foul wrote:in other words NO Muslim can or will EVER be a true and proper friend to a non Muslim, and further more any that say they are are, indulging in the old established practice of taqiya.

Except people are people not robots that have to follow religious programming.

I have said it Before ANYONE that follows the Bible is commanded by God to kill me as i am a Heretic, so far no takers If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS? - Page 3 3201073460

If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS? - Page 3 3201073460

If this were true of Muslims it would also be true of Christians as both a people dumb enough to but faith in old fairytales

by Tommy Monk Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:30 pm

sassy wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:as i said BOTH approaches are needed

in the short term we have to starve the snake of its oxygen
in the long term we have as you say didge to sort out the ideology...

Rubbish, Didge is doing IS's job for them. The religion means absolutely nothing to them, as people held hostage by them have testified. They are simply drug addled thugs. What they want you to believe is that they are doing it in the name of religion, because they want a wedge driven between Muslims and the rest of the world, and you and Didge and others like you and not only falling for it, but helping them perpetuate the lie and spread their propaganda. They love people like Didge, the more people like him there are, the happier they are.

Rubbish Sassy!

And yet again, you show how your arguments are all over the place...

On one hand you and other idiots are saying that western foreign policy is the cause of ISIS, whereby the Muslims feel like Islam is under attack and so they are defending it etc...

But then you also try to argue that ISIS are nothing to do with Islam etc, plus you try to claim that it is the local Muslims in the region who are under attack from ISIS...

How would Muslims be standing up for Muslims and Islam against perceived western attack, but not have anything to do with Islam, and then also being such a hostile attacking force against the very people they are supposedly standing up for in the first place!!!???

lol!

Can't you see how ridiculous this is to be claiming all these things...!?

by Victorismyhero Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:30 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
Didge wrote:

There has never been a global threat from Jewish extremism, only under the mindset of the Nazi's and today with Islamists. That may tell you something more about far right extremism and Islamic extremism

Jesus was a Jewish Extremist such a threat to the society he was executed 2000 years on and this monotheist lot are still a threat to the world

given that jesus was probaly the worlds first outspoken communist (all that love they neighbour shit) perhaps his treatment is a good pointer where we should be heading politically..... If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS? - Page 3 2190311264

If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS? - Page 3 2190311264

by Tommy Monk Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:30 pm

sassy wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:as i said BOTH approaches are needed

in the short term we have to starve the snake of its oxygen
in the long term we have as you say didge to sort out the ideology...

Rubbish, Didge is doing IS's job for them. The religion means absolutely nothing to them, as people held hostage by them have testified. They are simply drug addled thugs. What they want you to believe is that they are doing it in the name of religion, because they want a wedge driven between Muslims and the rest of the world, and you and Didge and others like you and not only falling for it, but helping them perpetuate the lie and spread their propaganda. They love people like Didge, the more people like him there are, the happier they are.

Rubbish Sassy!

And yet again, you show how your arguments are all over the place...

On one hand you and other idiots are saying that western foreign policy is the cause of ISIS, whereby the Muslims feel like Islam is under attack and so they are defending it etc...

But then you also try to argue that ISIS are nothing to do with Islam etc, plus you try to claim that it is the local Muslims in the region who are under attack from ISIS...

How would Muslims be standing up for Muslims and Islam against perceived western attack, but not have anything to do with Islam, and then also being such a hostile attacking force against the very people they are supposedly standing up for in the first place!!!???

lol!

Can't you see how ridiculous this is to be claiming all these things...!?

by Guest Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:31 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:in other words NO Muslim can or will EVER be a true and proper friend to a non Muslim, and further more any that say they are are, indulging in the old established practice of taqiya.

Except people are people not robots that have to follow religious programming.

I have said it Before ANYONE that follows the Bible is commanded by God to kill me as i am a Heretic, so far no takers

If this were true of Muslims it would also be true of Christians as both a people dumb enough to but faith in old fairytales

But again in the western world Christianity has no power anymore over Governments and the vast majority of Christians are not literal believers.
In Islam the majority of Muslims are literal belivers.

by veya_victaous Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:32 pm

Didge wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
Didge wrote:

There has never been a global threat from Jewish extremism, only under the mindset of the Nazi's and today with Islamists. That may tell you something more about far right extremism and Islamic extremism

Jesus was a Jewish Extremist such a threat to the society he was executed 2000 years on and this monotheist lot are still a threat to the world

That is not a jewish global threat Veya, but a threat to a region of the world.
Where actually Jesus was not executed for any extremism, but for claiming to be a king.
Christinianity maybe a problem in parts of the US and Africa but again it is not a global threat.

@ Victor, this is the problem with the Abrahamic faiths and even more prominent in Islam, what I can religious racism and why they teach the worst forms of discrmination.

that depends on who you ask?

You are saying any threat to you is global but ignoring equal threats to other peoples.

ISIS is not a threat to me, any more than any other group of nutbags. the RW nutjobs with reclaim Australia are more likely to commit a terrorist attack in Australia, Even the police have said that. The only Muslims threat here is really 'lone wolf' attacks which lets face Every US shooter is and most of them are not Muslim.

by Victorismyhero Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:33 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:in other words NO Muslim can or will EVER be a true and proper friend to a non Muslim, and further more any that say they are are, indulging in the old established practice of taqiya.

Except people are people not robots that have to follow religious programming.

I have said it Before ANYONE that follows the Bible is commanded by God to kill me as i am a Heretic, so far no takers

If this were true of Muslims it would also be true of Christians as both a people dumb enough to but faith in old fairytales

which makes a fine case for us being far more "picky" about whom we allow to come here to live, who we allow to stay AND about what we do about those already here....

by Guest Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:35 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
Didge wrote:

That is not a jewish global threat Veya, but a threat to a region of the world.
Where actually Jesus was not executed for any extremism, but for claiming to be a king.
Christinianity maybe a problem in parts of the US and Africa but again it is not a global threat.

@ Victor, this is the problem with the Abrahamic faiths and even more prominent in Islam, what I can religious racism and why they teach the worst forms of discrmination.

that depends on who you ask?

You are saying any threat to you is global but ignoring equal threats to other peoples.

ISIS is not a threat to me, any more than any other group of nutbags. the RW nutjobs with reclaim Australia are more likely to commit a terrorist attack in Australia, Even the police have said that. The only Muslims threat here is really 'lone wolf' attacks which lets face Every US shooter is and most of them are not Muslim.

Just because you do not equate a threat to yourself, does not mean there is not a threat to Australians per say, so your point is irrelevant.
We are talking here about many Islamic extremist groups that are at odds with our way of life and would wish to instill a way of life that is best to compare as life under the Taliban, basically 7th century ideology.

by veya_victaous Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:36 pm

Didge wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:in other words NO Muslim can or will EVER be a true and proper friend to a non Muslim, and further more any that say they are are, indulging in the old established practice of taqiya.

Except people are people not robots that have to follow religious programming.

I have said it Before ANYONE that follows the Bible is commanded by God to kill me as i am a Heretic, so far no takers

If this were true of Muslims it would also be true of Christians as both a people dumb enough to but faith in old fairytales

But again in the western world Christianity has no power anymore over Governments and the vast majority of Christians are not literal believers.
In Islam the majority of Muslims are literal belivers.

not really... the media show the literal believers and there is many literally believers in 3rd world poverty sicken nations, but that has more to do with the relationship between poverty and religious belief. that relationship is shown from South America and the USA to Asia and India across most religions.

by Guest Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:36 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
sassy wrote:

Rubbish, Didge is doing IS's job for them. The religion means absolutely nothing to them, as people held hostage by them have testified. They are simply drug addled thugs. What they want you to believe is that they are doing it in the name of religion, because they want a wedge driven between Muslims and the rest of the world, and you and Didge and others like you and not only falling for it, but helping them perpetuate the lie and spread their propaganda. They love people like Didge, the more people like him there are, the happier they are.

Rubbish Sassy!

And yet again, you show how your arguments are all over the place...

On one hand you and other idiots are saying that western foreign policy is the cause of ISIS, whereby the Muslims feel like Islam is under attack and so they are defending it etc...

But then you also try to argue that ISIS are nothing to do with Islam etc, plus you try to claim that it is the local Muslims in the region who are under attack from ISIS...

How would Muslims be standing up for Muslims and Islam against perceived western attack, but not have anything to do with Islam, and then also being such a hostile attacking force against the very people they are supposedly standing up for in the first place!!!???

Can't you see how ridiculous this is to be claiming all these things...!?

You stupid thick, idiotic, waste of space.

This from last year:

The group’s killing of Westerners gets attention. But ISIS has killed far more Muslims, and publicizing that fact would harm it more.
Last Thursday, the United Nations released a report that could provide us with one of the keys to defeating ISIS. Unfortunately, it received almost zero media attention.
What makes this 26-page report (PDF) so powerful is that it describes to us the gruesome circumstances in which ISIS has killed fellow Muslims. We are talking beheadings, killing of women for objecting to ISIS’ policies, and executing Sunni Muslim clerics for refusing to swear allegiance to ISIS.
Why is this important? This information can hopefully help dissuade other Muslims from joining or financially supporting ISIS. And it may even persuade other Muslim countries to join or increase their efforts in fighting ISIS. The reason being that slaughtering fellow Muslims is seen as universally wrong across the Muslim world and as a violation of Islamic values. In fact, Al Qaeda has even publicly criticized ISIS for this very conduct.
Now the report also details ISIS’ horrific actions against Christians, Yazidis, and other minorities. But these events—along with the grisly beheadings of American journalists and Western aid workers- have been covered extensively by our media.
The killing of Muslims has not, and part of the reason may be because we lacked facts surrounding those events. After all, ISIS releases videos of its gruesome actions that it wants the world media to discuss but doesn’t publicize events it understands can hurt its cause.
This report changes that. It provides us with evidence we were missing about the specifics of ISIS’ actions towards Muslims. This investigation, undertaken by UN’s Human Rights Office together with the UN’s Assistance Mission for Iraq, conducted more than 500 interviews with witnesses and visited locations across Iraq to examine how many civilians were killed in Iraq between July and September of this year.
What did the UN find? ISIS had “carried out attacks deliberately and systematically targeting civilians and civilian infrastructure, with the intention of killing and wounding civilians.” The UN concluded that in the first eight months of 2014, at least 9,347 civilians had been killed and at least 17,386 wounded. While all these deaths are not attributable to ISIS alone, ISIS is identified as the primary actor. (The report also documents what could be considered war crimes committed by the Iraqi military.)
Here are a few examples from the report to give you an idea of the way ISIS has methodically slaughtered Muslims:
-On September 5, ISIS executed three Sunni women in Mosul. What was their “crime”? They refused to provide medical care to ISIS fighters.
- On September 9, ISIS executed a Sunni Imam in western Mosul for refusing to swear loyalty to ISIS.
- On August 2, a man from the Salah ad Din province was abducted and beheaded for refusing to swear allegiance to ISIS.
-On August 19, a female Muslim doctor south of Mosul was killed for organizing a protest to object to ISIS’ mandate that female doctors cover their faces with religious veils when treating patients
-On August 31, 19 Sunni Muslim men were executed in Saadiya for refusing to swear allegiance to ISIS.
-On July 22, a Sunni Imam in Eastern Baquba was killed for simply denouncing ISIS.
-On September 9, ISIS executed two Muslim women by shooting them in the back of the head. Their exact “crime” was not known.

And the list goes on from ISIS slaughtering 1,500 Iraqi soldiers in June to blowing up numerous Sunni mosques because apparently the leaders of those mosques refused to swear loyalty to ISIS.
Here’s the thing: The leaders of ISIS are very aware that the killing of fellow Muslims—especially Sunnis- could hurt their cause in attracting support from the Sunni Muslim world. In fact, ISIS is so concerned about the possible backlash that the group’s leaders addressed this subject (PDF) in the latest issue of its online magazine.
In between its threats against Obama and promises of a great life for Muslims in their new so-called caliphate, ISIS offered justifications for killing fellow Muslims. For example, they claim that some Muslims ambushed ISIS fighters, took them hostage and “and then tortured, amputated, and executed prisoners.” They even alleged that some of the Sunni Muslims they killed were “drowning” in alcohol and drugs and had more than four wives.

But when you read the details of the UN report, you realize the common thread in ISIS’ killings of Muslims has nothing to do with Islam. It has to do with absolute power. It doesn’t matter if you are a Sunni cleric or a Christian woman, your choice is to submit to ISIS or die.
I wish the media would give more coverage to ISIS’ crimes against Muslims. The publicity would hurt the group’s cause tremendously, and it could also make the case to my fellow Americas that this fight is not Islam versus the West. Rather, it’s everyone who doesn’t want to live under ISIS’ brutal dictatorship versus ISIS.
And those Muslims who gave their lives fighting against or refusing to give into ISIS in our common struggle should be recognized in the media for their bravery. It would be very powerful to see images in our media of the Muslims killed by ISIS, not just Westerners.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/10/07/isis-s-gruesome-Muslim-death-toll.html

In the year and a half since then, they have killed thousands more Muslims.

I've come across some stupid, ill-informed people in my time, but you make them pale into insignificance in your total moronic inability to grasp any facts.

What they want is power, and to do that they are trying to divide the world, and with stupid fools like you around, they stand a good chance of succeeding.

by Guest Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:38 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
Didge wrote:

But again in the western world Christianity has no power anymore over Governments and the vast majority of Christians are not literal believers.
In Islam the majority of Muslims are literal belivers.

not really... the media show the literal believers and there is many literally believers in 3rd world poverty sicken nations, but that has more to do with the relationship between poverty and religious belief. that relationship is shown from South America and the USA to Asia and India across most religions.

Again which does not show I am wrong, where again the vast majority of problems is where you find literal belief, that being as I said Africa already and in parts of the US.
That tells yoiu more than anything why literal belief is derisive

by Guest Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:39 pm

Seriously how many posts today and everyday does sassy use the full copy and paste of others views to answer posters?

Can she not write and form any views herself?

by Guest Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:42 pm

Didge wrote:Seriously how many posts today and everyday does sassy use the full copy and paste of others views to answer posters?

Can she not write and form any views herself?

Didge, why don't you go and fuck yourself, because I doubt anyone else would. I was giving Tommy PROOF of how many Muslims ISIS kills all the time.

With your normal lack of perception, you couldn't work that out.

Nothing changes in that miasma you call a brain.

by Guest Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:42 pm

And I have to admit, Tommy's point is correct.
You cannot lay claim to blaming the west for Islamic terrorism, through the wars of Iraq etc, without the connection to Islam.
As how do British born people with no connection to Iraq or Afghanistan commit the 7/7 bombings?

There is only one connection.

Islam

by Guest Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:43 pm

So Didge shows the world he's as thick as Tommy.

by veya_victaous Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:44 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:in other words NO Muslim can or will EVER be a true and proper friend to a non Muslim, and further more any that say they are are, indulging in the old established practice of taqiya.

Except people are people not robots that have to follow religious programming.

I have said it Before ANYONE that follows the Bible is commanded by God to kill me as i am a Heretic, so far no takers

If this were true of Muslims it would also be true of Christians as both a people dumb enough to but faith in old fairytales

which makes a fine case for us being far more "picky" about whom we allow to come here to live, who we allow to stay AND about what we do about those already here....

you should be. Rolling Eyes

You should have moved border control to the edge of the union not 'left it to Greece' and others.. Seriously left it to Greece to Manage and now complain it doesn't work Suspect

sort of obvious wasn't it? Razz

mind you I don't know what you can do about Stormee and the other undesirables already there pirat

by Guest Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:44 pm

sassy wrote:
Didge wrote:Seriously how many posts today and everyday does sassy use the full copy and paste of others views to answer posters?

Can she not write and form any views herself?

Didge, why don't you go and fuck yourself, because I doubt anyone else would. I was giving Tommy PROOF of how many Muslims ISIS kills all the time.

With your normal lack of perception, you couldn't work that out.

Nothing changes in that miasma you call a brain.

And this is supposed to be the voice of reason and peace.

lol and you wonder why more and more people see it is actually the likes of the extreme left that is more a danger to our way of life.

Tommy was actually correct as seen by my last post

by Guest Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:46 pm

Didge wrote:
sassy wrote:

Didge, why don't you go and fuck yourself, because I doubt anyone else would. I was giving Tommy PROOF of how many Muslims ISIS kills all the time.

With your normal lack of perception, you couldn't work that out.

Nothing changes in that miasma you call a brain.

And this is supposed to be the voice of reason and peace.

lol and you wonder why more and more people see it is actually the likes of the extreme left that is more a danger to our way of life.

Tommy was actually correct as seen by my last post

No Didge, your last post just showed you were as clueless as Tommy, but you wouldn't know why it did that, and that's why you're clueless.

You do realise that THE PENTAGON released evidence about how it started ISIS don't you?

by Guest Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:47 pm

sassy wrote:So Didge shows the world he's as thick as Tommy.

Really, so they being Muslims and viewing supposed wrongs to Muslims, had nothing to do with Islam then?

by Guest Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:48 pm

sassy wrote:
Didge wrote:

And this is supposed to be the voice of reason and peace.

lol and you wonder why more and more people see it is actually the likes of the extreme left that is more a danger to our way of life.

Tommy was actually correct as seen by my last post

No Didge, your last post just showed you were as clueless as Tommy, but you wouldn't know why it did that, and that's why you're clueless.

Deflective babble.

Again

so they being Muslims and viewing supposed wrongs to Muslims, had nothing to do with Islam then?

by Guest Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:49 pm

http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/05/newly-declassified-u-s-government-documents-the-west-supported-the-creation-of-isis.html

by Guest Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:49 pm

sassy wrote:http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/05/newly-declassified-u-s-government-documents-the-west-supported-the-creation-of-isis.html

Deflective babble.

Again

so they being Muslims and viewing supposed wrongs to Muslims, had nothing to do with Islam then?

by Victorismyhero Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:52 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:

which makes a fine case for us being far more "picky" about whom we allow to come here to live, who we allow to stay AND about what we do about those already here....

you should be. You should have moved border control to the edge of the union not 'left it to Greece' and others.. Seriously left it to Greece to Manage and now complain it doesn't work sort of obvious wasn't it?

mind you I don't know what you can do about Stormee and the other undesirables already there

I do....

by Guest Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:53 pm

Didge wrote:
sassy wrote:http://www.washingtonsblog.com/2015/05/newly-declassified-u-s-government-documents-the-west-supported-the-creation-of-isis.html

Deflective babble.

Again

so they being Muslims and viewing supposed wrongs to Muslims, had nothing to do with Islam then?

Pentagon papers are deflective babble. Only somebody exceptionally stupid could say that.

The newly-declassified document continues:

If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS? - Page 3 ISIS-2

If you were a leader, and had a say, what would be YOUR solution to stopping ISIS? - Page 3 ISIS-2

Yes, you read that correctly:

… there is the possibility of establishing a declared or undeclared Salafist Principality in eastern Syria (Hasaka and Der Zor), and this is exactly what the supporting powers to the opposition want, in order to isolate the Syrian regime ….

In other words, the powers supporting the Syrian opposition – the West, our Gulf allies, and Turkey wanted an Islamic caliphate in order to challenge Syrian president Assad.

Sure, top U.S. generals – and vice president Vice President Joe Biden – have said that America’s closest allies support ISIS. And mainstream American media have called for direct support of ISIS.
But the declassified DIA documents show that the U.S. and the West supported ISIS at its inception … as a way to isolate the Syrian government.

by Guest Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:53 pm

Also ISIS formed in 1999 showing again how your conspiracy lunacy is beyond help

by Guest Mon Nov 23, 2015 10:54 pm

Again

so they being Muslims and viewing supposed wrongs to Muslims, had nothing to do with Islam then?

by Guest Mon Nov 23, 2015 11:00 pm

Also those documents do not back anything, they merely are predicting what might happen.
Sorry but your defense of Islamic extremism with trying to blame this on the west Sassy is nothing short of shambolic.

by Tommy Monk Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:07 am

sassy wrote:
Didge wrote:

And this is supposed to be the voice of reason and peace.

lol and you wonder why more and more people see it is actually the likes of the extreme left that is more a danger to our way of life.

Tommy was actually correct as seen by my last post

No Didge, your last post just showed you were as clueless as Tommy, but you wouldn't know why it did that, and that's why you're clueless.

You do realise that THE PENTAGON released evidence about how it started ISIS don't you?

Earth calling Sassy... come in please...!?

You are now claiming that ISIS is both a hostile collective of Muslims acting in response to western aggression... although you also claim that they are mostly attacking the local Muslim population... although you are also now claiming that ISIS are not a collective of Muslims reacting to and fighting against this perceived western aggression, but are actually a group created by and run by the USA...!?

Are you mad!!!???

by veya_victaous Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:20 am

Lord Foul wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
Didge wrote:

There has never been a global threat from Jewish extremism, only under the mindset of the Nazi's and today with Islamists. That may tell you something more about far right extremism and Islamic extremism

Jesus was a Jewish Extremist such a threat to the society he was executed 2000 years on and this monotheist lot are still a threat to the world

given that jesus was probaly the worlds first outspoken communist (all that love they neighbour shit) perhaps his treatment is a good pointer where we should be heading politically.....

Umm dude Buddha Rolling Eyes

Jesus was centuries after

And Pretty sure many Cave peoples would have been communists in the Purest form ... literal agricultural communes Wink

by Victorismyhero Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:25 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:

given that jesus was probaly the worlds first outspoken communist (all that love they neighbour shit) perhaps his treatment is a good pointer where we should be heading politically.....

Umm dude Buddha
Jesus was centuries after

ok I'll give you that

And Pretty sure many Cave peoples would have been communists in the Purest form ... literal agricultural communes

I doubt it....UGG was in charge cos he had the biggest club.....

by veya_victaous Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:37 am

Lord Foul wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:

given that jesus was probaly the worlds first outspoken communist (all that love they neighbour shit) perhaps his treatment is a good pointer where we should be heading politically.....

Umm dude Buddha
Jesus was centuries after

ok I'll give you that

And Pretty sure many Cave peoples would have been communists in the Purest form ... literal agricultural communes

I doubt it....UGG was in charge cos he had the biggest club.....

And Ugg said you work in team to grow this. or I club you.. still communism (actually rather similar to Stalin Suspect

)

Or like lions now, a pair of brothers beat Ugg senseless
But then got their asses murdered and lands taken by the group that worked together...

by Irn Bru Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:50 am

Didge wrote:And Irn illustrates perfectly the point I am making of left wing view points that fail to grasped the reality of a problematic situation.
There are millions of Muslims that support suicide bombing, because there is nothing to stop this being associated to Islam.
There are millions of Muslims who believe there is a war being waged against Islam and see those Non_Muslim as the enemy.
There are millions of Muslims who glorify murderers through martydom.

I could go on, but the point is that it maybe a minority of the worlds Muslims that believe this and many other views, but it is a substantial minority in the tens of millions that believe this view of Islam.

The subject of this thread is as stated which eddie made quite clear which is what I did and all you could do is offer a comment on me and not address one single point that I suggested to defeat ISIS. Instead you go ranting on about Muslims blissfuly ignoring the point being made was in relation to Muslims who support ISIS. So where are the millions that support the ISIS brand of Islam? Post your numbers which you have no doubt collected from a reputable independentt source.

Try reading things a bit more carefully Didge and I won't have to pull you up for what was an obvious deflection on your part.

Have another go at the actual subject of the thread.

by Guest Tue Nov 24, 2015 12:58 am

Tommy Monk wrote:
sassy wrote:

No Didge, your last post just showed you were as clueless as Tommy, but you wouldn't know why it did that, and that's why you're clueless.

You do realise that THE PENTAGON released evidence about how it started ISIS don't you?

Earth calling Sassy... come in please...!?

You are now claiming that ISIS is both a hostile collective of Muslims acting in response to western aggression... although you also claim that they are mostly attacking the local Muslim population... although you are also now claiming that ISIS are not a collective of Muslims reacting to and fighting against this perceived western aggression, but are actually a group created by and run by the USA...!?

Are you mad!!!???

Your brain really cannot engage can it.

ISIS was encouraged and assisted by USA etc in order to stop Assad, I never said they were not Muslim at any time, and what they are trying to do is to divide the world so that all Muslims fight all non Muslims. As the article I quoted about the Muslims they are killing says, by killing the Muslims they do they actually are defeating this object. Muslims that are accepted in the West also annoy them, because they want Muslims to think that they will not be tolerated by us. The fact that the West welcomed refugees infuriated them. They want the refugees to have nowhere to go and have to accept ISIS as their leaders, in their drug addled brains the fact that the refugees are terrified of them doesn't really compute, a bit like your brain when things get too complicated for you.

The rising against Assad started because of many things, the drought that made people affected by it move, the destablisation of the area when we took out Hussein, who kept Assad under control, and the number of civilians we killed in Iraq and Afghanistan, which ran into 100s of 1000s, which made many of them hate us, with good reason.

That's just a short sum up, there are many more complications to it, but your brain might fry if you tried to comprehend too much.

by Guest Tue Nov 24, 2015 5:28 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Didge wrote:And Irn illustrates perfectly the point I am making of left wing view points that fail to grasped the reality of a problematic situation.
There are millions of Muslims that support suicide bombing, because there is nothing to stop this being associated to Islam.
There are millions of Muslims who believe there is a war being waged against Islam and see those Non_Muslim as the enemy.
There are millions of Muslims who glorify murderers through martydom.

I could go on, but the point is that it maybe a minority of the worlds Muslims that believe this and many other views, but it is a substantial minority in the tens of millions that believe this view of Islam.

The subject of this thread is as stated which eddie made quite clear which is what I did and all you could do is offer a comment on me and not address one single point that I suggested to defeat ISIS. Instead you go ranting on about Muslims blissfuly ignoring the point being made was in relation to Muslims who support ISIS. So where are the millions that support the ISIS brand of Islam? Post your numbers which you have no doubt collected from a reputable independentt source.

Try reading things a bit more carefully Didge and I won't have to pull you up for what was an obvious deflection on your part.

Have another go at the actual subject of the thread.

\
No the subject is about combating all Islmic extremism Irn at its root cause much of which is dealing with the many naratiives which shows what a complete lack of understanding you have. Try understanding the bigger picture, as again you ignore the fact they are not the only extremist group that wish to install a system that would send societies back to the stone age. If you think its only about dealing with ISIS it shows how far removed you are from understanding the many issue =s of Islamic extremism. So I suggest before you come jumping onto a thread defending an islamic extremist who defends wahhabism, you start to understand as well that you are part of the problem and people are waking up to the fact it is those on the left that are divideing our country defending groups who want to see our way of life destroyed.

Again I want to see Islam seperated from extremism, but you again fail to grasp the problems.

How about you actually address the many points and posts on the thread Irn I have made already which you evaded completey, which is no surprise and you are no position to dictate here even though this is in your stalinistic nature, it simply does not cut it here. So you have pulled me up on nothing other than to expose your poor understanding and ignore the fact there is a huge problem with the likes of other groups like Boko Haram.

As to millions that support the very same ideology as ISIS bar the extreme violence, just look at all the salafist Muslim in the world which run into the tens of millions and for support on ISIS.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/11/17/in-nations-with-significant-Muslim-populations-much-disdain-for-isis/

http://www.infowars.com/pew-poll-63-million-Muslims-support-isis-in-eleven-countries/

Like I say when you do the maths there is tens of millions that support ISIS and its about time you took your head firmly out of the sand. The fact there is a significant percentage that favour ISIS as well as those who say they don't know is very disconcerting to say the least.
.
So instead of jumping on here running your mouth off being so clueless to the problem of Islamic extremism, I suggest you counter my many posts by either putting up of shutting up.
The choice is simple.

by Fuzzy Zack Tue Nov 24, 2015 10:57 am

Didge wrote:And I have to admit, Tommy's point is correct.
You cannot lay claim to blaming the west for Islamic terrorism, through the wars of Iraq etc, without the connection to Islam.
As how do British born people with no connection to Iraq or Afghanistan commit the 7/7 bombings?

There is only one connection.

Islam

First Mentor and Smelly and now you align yourself with our current forum bigot.

Says a lot. Crying or Very sad

by Fuzzy Zack Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:00 am

@Victor -

I thought you were more intelligent than that.

Of course Muslims can have non Muslim friends.

You are reading the Quran like a member of Isis, literally and without historical context.

by Guest Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:03 am

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Didge wrote:And I have to admit, Tommy's point is correct.
You cannot lay claim to blaming the west for Islamic terrorism, through the wars of Iraq etc, without the connection to Islam.
As how do British born people with no connection to Iraq or Afghanistan commit the 7/7 bombings?

There is only one connection.

Islam

First Mentor and Smelly and now you align yourself with our current forum bigot.

Says a lot.

So I cannot agree with a valid point because it upsets you because of the hateful view you have of people.

That says more about you and more about Islam than it does about me.

by Guest Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:05 am

Fuzzy Zack wrote:@Victor -

I thought you were more intelligent than that.

Of course Muslims can have non Muslim friends.

You are reading the Quran like a member of Isis, literally and without historical context.

What historical context?
Its not a historical book.
It is the supposed final message through a deity to a people.
Are you claiming Allah changes his mind and thus admits fallability?
It is Muslims that plae such passages into a historical context.
If that is how you want others to view the Quran, clearly you and others are failing to get your message across being as for example antisemitism is widespread within the Muslim world

by Victorismyhero Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:21 am

Fuzzy Zack wrote:@Victor -

I thought you were more intelligent than that.

Of course Muslims can have non Muslim friends.

You are reading the Quran like a member of Isis, literally and without historical context.

@ Fuzzy...i have read commentry on this particular subject from two opposing views...its not like theres any shortage of it is there

one side waffling on about the literal...which seems to be alarmingly prevelent, and another that gives a much softer view point, and accordingly places things in a "historical context".

Now there are issues with this, both of which you share with the bible ...

your koran is supposed to be "perfect", yet it needs "interpreting"?? ergo its NOT perfect, since then it relys on imperfect interpreters, and the ignorant (thats you fuzzy) are left to decide which of those interpreters is not imperfect.... Rolling Eyes

however even the liberal interpretations I have read are quite clear....

musims friendships with non Muslims are NOT the same level as with other Muslims...

friends are confidants and guides very often....supporters in hard emotional times.....

under those circumstances...when REAL friends are needed....You cannot be my friend
moreover you are, even in the most "moderate interpretation supposed to constantly "guide me" to allah,

and as a pagan I am pure poison to you ?

and whats worse of course is this issue of taquiya, within this context

why would I accept friendship from you, knowing that there is AT LEAST a 50% chance (and thats being generous) that its false friendship, and that you are offering it only becasue it will "benefit" you in some way

I dont take for friends those who for whatever reason I consider may shake hands with the right and stab with the left, who smile with their face and hate with their heart

whilst I dont doubt there are many "interpretations" of what the koran means.....

how am I supposed to know who beleives what interpretation

the Muslim that moves in down the road...how do I know what "brand" he is ??? how do I know if hes Muslim 1.0 or Muslim 2.4 jelly bean etc???

by nicko Tue Nov 24, 2015 11:54 am

Well put Vic.

by Fuzzy Zack Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:50 pm

Didge wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:@Victor -

I thought you were more intelligent than that.

Of course Muslims can have non Muslim friends.

You are reading the Quran like a member of Isis, literally and without historical context.

What historical context?
Its not a historical book.
It is the supposed final message through a deity to a people.
Are you claiming Allah changes his mind and thus admits fallability?
It is Muslims that plae such passages into a historical context.
If that is how you want others to view the Quran, clearly you and others are failing to get your message across being as for example antisemitism is widespread within the Muslim world

Funny how Smelly made the same argument and it was you telling him to put verses into context.

Anyway...

Verses were revealed in different stages "as events were occurring", in order to guide Muslims in those events. So yes, there is a historical context. The interpretation comes when deciding if that context and the rationale of it still applies today, or not. In otherwords, does the jurisprudence still apply today given current events.

It's not how I want other Muslims to view the Quran. This is exactly how SUNNI (not Salafi) use the Quran. Lol! sexy Mama (the only other Muslim you know) will tell you exactly the same thing.

by Fuzzy Zack Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:53 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:@Victor -

I thought you were more intelligent than that.

Of course Muslims can have non Muslim friends.

You are reading the Quran like a member of Isis, literally and without historical context.

@ Fuzzy...i have read commentry on this particular subject from two opposing views...its not like theres any shortage of it is there

one side waffling on about the literal...which seems to be alarmingly prevelent, and another that gives a much softer view point, and accordingly places things in a "historical context".

Now there are issues with this, both of which you share with the bible ...

your koran is supposed to be "perfect", yet it needs "interpreting"?? ergo its NOT perfect, since then it relys on imperfect interpreters, and the ignorant (thats you fuzzy) are left to decide which of those interpreters is not imperfect....

however even the liberal interpretations I have read are quite clear....

musims friendships with non Muslims are NOT the same level as with other Muslims...

friends are confidants and guides very often....supporters in hard emotional times.....

under those circumstances...when REAL friends are needed....You cannot be my friend
moreover you are, even in the most "moderate interpretation supposed to constantly "guide me" to allah,

and as a pagan I am pure poison to you ?

and whats worse of course is this issue of taquiya, within this context

why would I accept friendship from you, knowing that there is AT LEAST a 50% chance (and thats being generous) that its false friendship, and that you are offering it only becasue it will "benefit" you in some way

I dont take for friends those who for whatever reason I consider may shake hands with the right and stab with the left, who smile with their face and hate with their heart

whilst I dont doubt there are many "interpretations" of what the koran means.....

how am I supposed to know who beleives what interpretation

the Muslim that moves in down the road...how do I know what "brand" he is ??? how do I know if hes Muslim 1.0 or Muslim 2.4 jelly bean etc???

For a start, I wasn't asking for friendship and nor do I care about your insecurities.

But your insecurities does explain a lot about your mistrust of an entire culture/religion.

It's not something within my make up, so I will never understand how you even sleep at night. You must be stressed.

by Guest Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:54 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Didge wrote:

What historical context?
Its not a historical book.
It is the supposed final message through a deity to a people.
Are you claiming Allah changes his mind and thus admits fallability?
It is Muslims that plae such passages into a historical context.
If that is how you want others to view the Quran, clearly you and others are failing to get your message across being as for example antisemitism is widespread within the Muslim world

Funny how Smelly made the same argument and it was you telling him to put verses into context.

Anyway...

Verses were revealed in different stages "as events were occurring", in order to guide Muslims in those events. So yes, there is a historical context. The interpretation comes when deciding if that context and the rationale of it still applies today, or not. In otherwords, does the jurisprudence still apply today given current events.

It's not how I want other Muslims to view the Quran. This is exactly how SUNNI (not Salafi) use the Quran. Lol! sexy Mama (the only other Muslim you know) will tell you exactly the same thing.

Gobbldygook.
Its not a historical book, with again it being claimed a final message, which would mean the verses stand for all time. Thuis is why your faith is utter gibberish at the end of the day and what is the saddest thing is so many children are being brainwashed with this rubbish with little chance of ever knowing anything different being as so many Muslim countries censur different views. As I say and as Victor has pointed out who is right? You can only go off previous scholars which shows the fallaiblity of such a faith.

by Fuzzy Zack Tue Nov 24, 2015 1:59 pm

Lord Foul wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:@Victor -

I thought you were more intelligent than that.

Of course Muslims can have non Muslim friends.

You are reading the Quran like a member of Isis, literally and without historical context.

@ Fuzzy...i have read commentry on this particular subject from two opposing views...its not like theres any shortage of it is there

one side waffling on about the literal...which seems to be alarmingly prevelent, and another that gives a much softer view point, and accordingly places things in a "historical context".

Now there are issues with this, both of which you share with the bible ...

your koran is supposed to be "perfect", yet it needs "interpreting"?? ergo its NOT perfect, since then it relys on imperfect interpreters, and the ignorant (thats you fuzzy) are left to decide which of those interpreters is not imperfect....

however even the liberal interpretations I have read are quite clear....

musims friendships with non Muslims are NOT the same level as with other Muslims...

friends are confidants and guides very often....supporters in hard emotional times.....

under those circumstances...when REAL friends are needed....You cannot be my friend
moreover you are, even in the most "moderate interpretation supposed to constantly "guide me" to allah,

and as a pagan I am pure poison to you ?

and whats worse of course is this issue of taquiya, within this context

why would I accept friendship from you, knowing that there is AT LEAST a 50% chance (and thats being generous) that its false friendship, and that you are offering it only becasue it will "benefit" you in some way

I dont take for friends those who for whatever reason I consider may shake hands with the right and stab with the left, who smile with their face and hate with their heart

whilst I dont doubt there are many "interpretations" of what the koran means.....

how am I supposed to know who beleives what interpretation

the Muslim that moves in down the road...how do I know what "brand" he is ??? how do I know if hes Muslim 1.0 or Muslim 2.4 jelly bean etc???

https://youtu.be/vE5bvdDaUwI

You can start watching from 2 mins in.

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