Paris Shootings

First topic message reminder :

Oh dear god....this breaks my heart.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/11/13/world/paris-shooting/index.html

Eilzel wrote:

korban dallas wrote:
the yanks tried that with Guantanamo bay that did not work just gave terrorists something to point to.

I didn't say we should torture them.

i know....but isn`t locking people up until proven innocent a kind of torture especially for months perhaps years

Eilzel wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:If it's discovered that any of these terrorists were known to the authorities, I don't know what will be said. After the attacks in Paris earlier this year, I would have thought they were keeping an eye on all other known trouble makers.

That's my thought to. At this point, I'd say any suspected terrorist should be detained and assumed guilty until proven innocent.

And the reactionary idiots come out of the woodwork.

Did you really just recommend "internment", dumb ass?

Did you really just recommended caging people without due process, in France of all places?

----

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

That's my thought to. At this point, I'd say any suspected terrorist should be detained and assumed guilty until proven innocent.

And the reactionary idiots come out of the woodwork.

Did you really just recommend "internment", dumb ass?

Did you really just recommended caging people without due process, in France of all places?

----

Only if they are currently being monitored as suspected terrorists. Better not to take the chance.

https://youtu.be/Z7-bhpLM6XU

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Eilzel wrote:

That's my thought to. At this point, I'd say any suspected terrorist should be detained and assumed guilty until proven innocent.

And the reactionary idiots come out of the woodwork.

Did you really just recommend "internment", dumb ass?

Did you really just recommended caging people without due process, in France of all places?

----

No it should be business as normal and any arrests kept quite from the public eye, which is half the issue, as well as the countless points i made already. Like I say, you need to start having Muslims not echoing ISIS and other extremist islamic groups blaming the west for their rise. It has always been a fundemental fear of losing islamnic control within societies, plus also gaing supremacy for one islamic faction. The west played a paret, but was not the cause and creation of these groups. The sooner that many islamic religious and Political leaders start seperating themselves from the kind of derisive justification of rmurder and terrorism. The sooner the extremists cease to be islamic or Muslims. Because the message promoted should be opposite to what ISIS and others are stating. Hence any glorification of murders and glorifying the criminal terrorists that carried them out has got to stop and a promotion of peace far removed from wrongly claiming martydom to those who are murders and thus criminals. They have committed sins and its tuime for no more pussy footing around. This is as much top the benfit to the majority of Muslims, that they fully sperate themselves from these extremists. Whilst a sizeable majority justify suicide attacks, glorify terrorists, then you are failing to seperatge the extremists from Islam

Enough is enough, we need a world united and this problem is very much rooted from the easability to twist and interpret islamic text.

FGS don't let them achieve what they want.

OK I am not for a second saying we should villainize all Muslims, far from it.

But I do tire of every time something like this happens an EQUAL amount of effort is made to protect the feelings of innocent Muslims as is made to suggest how we tackle the extremists.

Yes Sass, we shouldn't make it us vs them, I'm the last to suggest such a thing. But what do you suggest IS done about the very real and increasingly regular violent threat of Islamic extremism?

I see the point was so far above sassy's head.
The extremists promote themselves as Muslims and followers of islam, hence the seperation is needed, where islam is actually promoted as a religion of peace and not justifying violence and murder. Until such a seperation happens and that all those who justify terrorist acts are then classified or reclassifed as terrorist. Then the problem will continue to worsenThe they will just be seen as a branch of islam that is easily able to recruit many Muslims. This has been a major problem for a long time where not even prominant Muslims are not speaking out and denouncing any forms of violence.

If you seperate the extremism from islam, then the extremists become ostracised and you have a broad united front that does not openly and vocally recognise them as Muslims. Instead many chose to follow the old easy option of just blaming the westm, where by doing so they actually themselves create the biggest factor of the problem being Islam itself. As it is because of islam, that a brotherhood and sisterhood is taught, that alloows for extremists to believe they are justied in murdering innocent people based off claims to other Muslims around the world being wronged, persecuted etc. This is a problem, because islam is not a pacifist religion and teaches to protect your homes and property. Though if you seperate such extremes, they are not seen as just part of islam to everyone else, and the mistrust will just continue to grow.

Its time for Muslims and for many of them to act and be a central voice to combat the extremism. People see little difference if around the world, where people are murdered and then you have people glorify those murderers/terrorists and even worse justify the terrorism/murders. They need to spend less time thinking the west is out to get them and do more to deal with the countless problems within the islamic world because doing nothing achieves nothing and this extremism will continue to spiral out of control and i do not want to see further discrmination against Muslims because4 ISIS are still seen as very much Islamic. If these extremists are vocally throughout the Muslims world denied islamic and Muslim status. You have just taken away their biggest attraction for Muslims to join.

Hence why now is the time for many Muslims to act

Second, the objectives of these extremists groups is to cause maximum disruption. Change security protocles. deny access to refugees and migrants. instill fear, with murder and violence.

Didge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

And the reactionary idiots come out of the woodwork.

Did you really just recommend "internment", dumb ass?

Did you really just recommended caging people without due process, in France of all places?

----

No it should be business as normal and any arrests kept quite from the public eye, which is half the issue, as well as the countless points i made already. Like I say, you need to start having Muslims not echoing ISIS and other extremist islamic groups blaming the west for their rise. It has always been a fundemental fear of losing islamnic control within societies, plus also gaing supremacy for one islamic faction. The west played a paret, but was not the cause and creation of these groups. The sooner that many islamic religious and Political leaders start seperating themselves from the kind of derisive justification of rmurder and terrorism. The sooner the extremists cease to be islamic or Muslims. Because the message promoted should be opposite to what ISIS and others are stating. Hence any glorification of murders and glorifying the criminal terrorists that carried them out has got to stop and a promotion of peace far removed from wrongly claiming martydom to those who are murders and thus criminals. They have committed sins and its tuime for no more pussy footing around. This is as much top the benfit to the majority of Muslims, that they fully sperate themselves from these extremists. Whilst a sizeable majority justify suicide attacks, glorify terrorists, then you are failing to seperatge the extremists from Islam

Enough is enough, we need a world united and this problem is very much rooted from the easability to twist and interpret islamic text.

Unfortunately all these religious texts are open to twisting ,be it Islamic,Cristian,budidst,ect ect the problem is religion we see the same in any sectarian philosophy

Eilzel wrote:OK I am not for a second saying we should villainize all Muslims, far from it.

But I do tire of every time something like this happens an EQUAL amount of effort is made to protect the feelings of innocent Muslims as is made to suggest how we tackle the extremists.

Yes Sass, we shouldn't make it us vs them, I'm the last to suggest such a thing. But what do you suggest IS done about the very real and increasingly regular violent threat of Islamic extremism?

Unfortunately what SHOULDN'T have been done already has, from Blair onwards.  And the first thing is to stop treating it as Islamic extremism and start treating it as extremism, look at the root causes, because the people actually fighting ISIS and the ones who are under the greatest threat from ISIS are Muslims.  Paris last night was awful, but a night like that is a normal night for millions of Muslims being terrorised by them.  Obama came out and said it was a crime against humanity.  It was.  However, the night before 43 people had died in Beirut, bombed by ISIS.  Who called that a crime against humanity?   It has reached the state now I doubt anyone has an actual plan.  Let's bomb them they say, then rain down bombs, kill a couple of ISIS with a few dozen innocent civiliant and cause more refugees.  Basically they have fucked up big style and nobody has a clue how to fix it.

korban dallas wrote:

Didge wrote:

No it should be business as normal and any arrests kept quite from the public eye, which is half the issue, as well as the countless points i made already. Like I say, you need to start having Muslims not echoing ISIS and other extremist islamic groups blaming the west for their rise. It has always been a fundemental fear of losing islamnic control within societies, plus also gaing supremacy for one islamic faction. The west played a paret, but was not the cause and creation of these groups. The sooner that many islamic religious and Political leaders start seperating themselves from the kind of derisive justification of rmurder and terrorism. The sooner the extremists cease to be islamic or Muslims. Because the message promoted should be opposite to what ISIS and others are stating. Hence any glorification of murders and glorifying the criminal terrorists that carried them out has got to stop and a promotion of peace far removed from wrongly claiming martydom to those who are murders and thus criminals. They have committed sins and its tuime for no more pussy footing around. This is as much top the benfit to the majority of Muslims, that they fully sperate themselves from these extremists. Whilst a sizeable majority justify suicide attacks, glorify terrorists, then you are failing to seperatge the extremists from Islam

Enough is enough, we need a world united and this problem is very much rooted from the easability to twist and interpret islamic text.

Unfortunately all these religious texts are open to twisting ,be it Islamic,Cristian,budidst,ect ect the problem is religion we see the same in any sectarian philosophy

Indeed they are Korben, but here is the fundemental point again.
There is a substancial amount of Muslims world wide that justify and believe it is endorsed within islam to murder people if based off a so called claim of an injustice to other Muslims. The very thing that allows for a Muslims to commit an attrocity or justify it.
Whilst this continues very much unchallenged, where you need as many religious leaders to unite to say it can never be justified and that murderers are not Martyrs etc. Then the extremist groups are then very much still islamic and seen as Muslims. When they then lose none of their recruitment drive of Muslims. Deny them this status, fully endorsing a view point of promoting peace and disowning any such conception to justifying violence throug hate. Then many Muslims who disagree will have no defense against blaming the west. They either have to adhere to the religious authorities, which Islam needs to set a central one up, or they themselves end up losing Islamic status. You place the emphasis and problems back at where they stemj from.

Here is a typical example of what I am talking about.

http://www.newsfixboard.com/t12344-jordan-attacker-buried-amid-chants-of-death-to-america

You have 3 thousand Jordanians justify/glorify and exonerate a terrorist who carried out murders. Whilst also going off another and quite frankly racist belief, that America is the great Satan. Many Muslims are taught to hate America and as seen claim it is formed from evil. When its laws are secular based and it is a majority Christian country. Not only is that condemning all of America and promoting a view of hate against them, but where is the vocal Muslim voices condemning these Jordanians? Where is the religious leaders stating categorically this terrorist, is not a martyr, but a murderer.

Until the Muslim authorities and religious leaders condemn all of those who attempt to justify murder and glorify it in the name of islam. Then those with extremist views like with this terrorist attack and the hateful views promoted at the funeral which are very much racist towards Americans, will continue to remain unchallenged. as much as we in the West need to do more to combat discrmination against Muslims. The religious and political; leaders also have to deal with the racist teaching that classifies America as evil and the Great Satan. Where by doing so they deligitimze America and American citizens.

See how it works everyone and why now more than any, we need a centralized very vocal and large group that incoorporates many Muslim nations and Muslims themselves that stand against all promoted hateful and unjustified views of violence claimed in the name of Islam.

Didge wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

And the reactionary idiots come out of the woodwork.

Did you really just recommend "internment", dumb ass?

Did you really just recommended caging people without due process, in France of all places?

----

No it should be business as normal and any arrests kept quite from the public eye, which is half the issue, as well as the countless points i made already. Like I say, you need to start having Muslims not echoing ISIS and other extremist islamic groups blaming the west for their rise. It has always been a fundemental fear of losing islamnic control within societies, plus also gaing supremacy for one islamic faction. The west played a paret, but was not the cause and creation of these groups. The sooner that many islamic religious and Political leaders start seperating themselves from the kind of derisive justification of rmurder and terrorism. The sooner the extremists cease to be islamic or Muslims. Because the message promoted should be opposite to what ISIS and others are stating. Hence any glorification of murders and glorifying the criminal terrorists that carried them out has got to stop and a promotion of peace far removed from wrongly claiming martydom to those who are murders and thus criminals. They have committed sins and its tuime for no more pussy footing around. This is as much top the benfit to the majority of Muslims, that they fully sperate themselves from these extremists. Whilst a sizeable majority justify suicide attacks, glorify terrorists, then you are failing to seperatge the extremists from Islam

Enough is enough, we need a world united and this problem is very much rooted from the easability to twist and interpret islamic text.

Muslim organisations in France and around the world continue to condemn all terrorist groups and last nights attack in Paris.

Their public statements are available online, should you choose to look.

The "sizeable majority justify..." Is the kind of bullshit I'd expect from Smelly and Mentor and indicates how little you know about Muslims.

Eilzel wrote:OK I am not for a second saying we should villainize all Muslims, far from it.

But I do tire of every time something like this happens an EQUAL amount of effort is made to protect the feelings of innocent Muslims as is made to suggest how we tackle the extremists.

Yes Sass, we shouldn't make it us vs them, I'm the last to suggest such a thing. But what do you suggest IS done about the very real and increasingly regular violent threat of Islamic extremism?

You try not be dragged down to the gutter of extremism yourself.

It is moment like this that really challenge what you believe. You either believe it or become a hypocrite.

There will be retaliatory attacks against Muslims in France. But no one in the media will call that terrorism. Why? (That's a retorical question).

Terrorism hits Paris,
More than 40 innocent citizens and more than 50 injuries so far in multiple terrorist attacks hit different areas in Paris, support and solidarity with all French people from occupied Palestine, 14 November 2015.



Posted from Palestinian

An old English saying, and I don't say it's right,
"tit for tat"

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Didge wrote:

No it should be business as normal and any arrests kept quite from the public eye, which is half the issue, as well as the countless points i made already. Like I say, you need to start having Muslims not echoing ISIS and other extremist islamic groups blaming the west for their rise. It has always been a fundemental fear of losing islamnic control within societies, plus also gaing supremacy for one islamic faction. The west played a paret, but was not the cause and creation of these groups. The sooner that many islamic religious and Political leaders start seperating themselves from the kind of derisive justification of rmurder and terrorism. The sooner the extremists cease to be islamic or Muslims. Because the message promoted should be opposite to what ISIS and others are stating. Hence any glorification of murders and glorifying the criminal terrorists that carried them out has got to stop and a promotion of peace far removed from wrongly claiming martydom to those who are murders and thus criminals. They have committed sins and its tuime for no more pussy footing around. This is as much top the benfit to the majority of Muslims, that they fully sperate themselves from these extremists. Whilst a sizeable majority justify suicide attacks, glorify terrorists, then you are failing to seperatge the extremists from Islam

Enough is enough, we need a world united and this problem is very much rooted from the easability to twist and interpret islamic text.

Muslim organisations in France and around the world continue to condemn all terrorist groups and last nights attack in Paris.

Their public statements are available online, should you choose to look.

The "sizeable majority justify..." Is the kind of bullshit I'd expect from Smelly and Mentor and indicates how little you know about Muslims.

Is that the vast majority of religious leaders/scholars and political leaders who have condemn what these Jordanians did the other day?

Again what is being done is miniscule and a token jesture as constantly many things by groups are allowed to go unchallenged.

Your last point just sums up the fact you cannot counter what I am saying is true, because it is. As otheriwse you would not have a systematic belief found widespread throughout the Muslim world that promotes hate to both Israel and America. Where what is taught deligitimizes them. By doing this, you then allow for a belief that it is acceptable to attack innocent civillians etc, as you have classified the people of these nations as evil. fundemnetally dehumanizing them. You have opposition to problems, not a promotion of hate. be critical, not promote a view of hate and look what you and some of the left do in regards to your rhetoric of hate against Zionism, which is just another means of justifying hate of israel and many of its citzens.

We have seen of late what condemnations against Abbas and other Fatah and hamas leaders for promoting murderers as Martyrs and justifyiung their murdereous acts? So where is this condemnation which you should be able to show that is so vocal in every Muslim country condemning those murderers classified as Martyrs? Where they condemn the march in Morocco, where they created mock executions of Jews. That they denounced the march in Tunisa, which supported a claim to a Palestinian rising, of which is being done through murder?

You see its the denial that is the major obsticle that you and other Muslims are creating based off anger as seen above. Until you have a centralised and majority vocally condemnation of all acts of violence and hate to people. Then the token efforts done, count for very little. You need seperation, that makes the stand point within islam, against violence. To then more so champion peace. Ignore this  all you like, but you are fundementally ignoring a problem that stems from a central core belief in islam of brotherhood and sisterhood. The bigggest factor and core reason to why some Muslims, with no connection to a nation and wrongs done there, have a connection and a perceived injustice, created around the faith itself. So please spare me your poor defense here zack, with deflecting claiming this is like smelly and mentor. If you had bothered to read, I am actually trying to help Muslims and even its religion, becaome seperate from the extremists. Its time you and countless other  Muslims did actually something to reclaim your religion. Ignoring these fundemental problems, will just continue to allow the extremism to grow.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Eilzel wrote:OK I am not for a second saying we should villainize all Muslims, far from it.

But I do tire of every time something like this happens an EQUAL amount of effort is made to protect the feelings of innocent Muslims as is made to suggest how we tackle the extremists.

Yes Sass, we shouldn't make it us vs them, I'm the last to suggest such a thing. But what do you suggest IS done about the very real and increasingly regular violent threat of Islamic extremism?

You try not be dragged down to the gutter of extremism yourself.

It is moment like this that really challenge what you believe. You either believe it or become a hypocrite.

There will be retaliatory attacks against Muslims in France. But no one in the media will call that terrorism. Why? (That's a retorical question).

Didge is a racist, became one quite a while ago.  If someone had said to him a couple of years ago 'Muslims have to condemn', he would have said 'why, do we ask Muslims to condemn when we never ask anyone else'.  Do we ask all Americans to condemn when they kill civilians with drones?  Do we ask all Britains to condemn when Blair killing thousands of Iraqi civilians?  etc etc etc.  He's a racist, through and through.

Les is in shock, and doing something Les doesn't normally do, reacting with a knee jerk.

So sassy cannot answer any points and instead try to derail the thread making accusations on posters thus deflecting.


For sassy to answer




Is that the vast majority of religious leaders/scholars and political leaders who have condemn what these Jordanians did the other day?

Again what is being done is miniscule and a token jesture as constantly many things by groups are allowed to go unchallenged.

Your last point just sums up the fact you cannot counter what I am saying is true, because it is. As otheriwse you would not have a systematic belief found widespread throughout the Muslim world that promotes hate to both Israel and America. Where what is taught deligitimizes them. By doing this, you then allow for a belief that it is acceptable to attack innocent civillians etc, as you have classified the people of these nations as evil. fundemnetally dehumanizing them. You have opposition to problems, not a promotion of hate. be critical, not promote a view of hate and look what you and some of the left do in regards to your rhetoric of hate against Zionism, which is just another means of justifying hate of israel and many of its citzens.

We have seen of late what condemnations against Abbas and other Fatah and hamas leaders for promoting murderers as Martyrs and justifyiung their murdereous acts? So where is this condemnation which you should be able to show that is so vocal in every Muslim country condemning those murderers classified as Martyrs? Where they condemn the march in Morocco, where they created mock executions of Jews. That they denounced the march in Tunisa, which supported a claim to a Palestinian rising, of which is being done through murder?

You see its the denial that is the major obsticle that you and other Muslims are creating based off anger as seen above. Until you have a centralised and majority vocally condemnation of all acts of violence and hate to people. Then the token efforts done, count for very little. You need seperation, that makes the stand point within islam, against violence. To then more so champion peace. Ignore this  all you like, but you are fundementally ignoring a problem that stems from a central core belief in islam of brotherhood and sisterhood. The bigggest factor and core reason to why some Muslims, with no connection to a nation and wrongs done there, have a connection and a perceived injustice, created around the faith itself. So please spare me your poor defense here zack, with deflecting claiming this is like smelly and mentor. If you had bothered to read, I am actually trying to help Muslims and even its religion, becaome seperate from the extremists. Its time you and countless other  Muslims did actually something to reclaim your religion. Ignoring these fundemental problems, will just continue to allow the extremism to grow.

For Dodge to answer, as I have already done so if he reads my previous posts.

Why do you still claim to fight racism?  Because you have become one.

I'll re-post for Dodge, although he won't have the brains to tie the two together and will keep burbling on:

Unfortunately what SHOULDN'T have been done already has, from Blair onwards.  And the first thing is to stop treating it as Islamic extremism and start treating it as extremism, look at the root causes, because the people actually fighting ISIS and the ones who are under the greatest threat from ISIS are Muslims.  Paris last night was awful, but a night like that is a normal night for millions of Muslims being terrorised by them.  Obama came out and said it was a crime against humanity.  It was.  However, the night before 43 people had died in Beirut, bombed by ISIS.  Who called that a crime against humanity?   It has reached the state now I doubt anyone has an actual plan.  Let's bomb them they say, then rain down bombs, kill a couple of ISIS with a few dozen innocent civiliant and cause more refugees.  Basically they have fucked up big style and nobody has a clue how to fix it.

AND ...the left sing

keep calm and carry on dieing for the cause

I'm sorry Sass, I was reasonable earlier this year when this happened. But Europe has done its best for refugees coming to Europe under immense strain. How many attacks must we be forced to endure (and that is exactly what you and Zack are asking for here).

It isn't racism or extremism to ask for a heavy reaction when many innocent people have been murdered by these cowards twice in one year in France. I don't care how they treat terror suspects, I care about more innocent people just having a good time being killed in large numbers by bitter, ruthless, brainwashed cowards.

Right sassy, do you call it a crime against humanity when Hamas fire rockets into Israel.... Do you fuck,

you don't say a word.

sassy wrote:For Dodge to answer, as I have already done so if he reads my previous posts.

Why do you still claim to fight racism? 

because you have become one.

deflection and again trying to derail the thread wishing for a fight to start.

You have failed to answer the countless points i have made.

The problems stem from within the religion itself.

As how else do you explain people with no ethnic or ancestry connection to a country resort to violence?
The only answer is through a belief found within the religion itself

Hence why Muslims have to now stand up around the world and seperate the views that are backed up to justify and glorify violence. They have to condemn all those who pormote such hate.
otherwise nothing will seperate the extremists if the same religious leaders fail to condemn the funeral protest in Jordan
All hate has to be condemned, otherwise you cannot possibly lay claim to champion peace

Lord Foul wrote:AND ...the left sing

keep calm and carry on dieing for the cause

Why? What do you suggest?

And...one of sassy's heros, this paragon of virute, the "father of the house"

only wants to let 10,000 A DAY into the country unchecked and unverified

(I make that suposition because it would be impossible to do proper background on that volume of people in any sensible time scale)

sassy wrote:I'll re-post for Dodge, although he won't have the brains to tie the two together and will keep burbling on:

Unfortunately what SHOULDN'T have been done already has, from Blair onwards.  And the first thing is to stop treating it as Islamic extremism and start treating it as extremism, look at the root causes, because the people actually fighting ISIS and the ones who are under the greatest threat from ISIS are Muslims.  Paris last night was awful, but a night like that is a normal night for millions of Muslims being terrorised by them.  Obama came out and said it was a crime against humanity.  It was.  However, the night before 43 people had died in Beirut, bombed by ISIS.  Who called that a crime against humanity?   It has reached the state now I doubt anyone has an actual plan.  Let's bomb them they say, then rain down bombs, kill a couple of ISIS with a few dozen innocent civiliant and cause more refugees.  Basically they have fucked up big style and nobody has a clue how to fix it.

The apologist argument which actually helps the extremists
Again the problems found that have led to extremism are numerous, but they are a fear of islamic control diminishing through progression. centuries of hate and violence between Shias and Sunnis. Core reasoning and beliefs found within islam, that allow for people to feel an injustice based off what happens to other Muslims. So much so that it foremost champions the best way into heaven is for a person to die fighting for islam. This blood sacrifice is fundemntally flawed, which as seen allows for a substancial amount of Muslims to glorify acts or murder and terror against innocent people. Again where also there has been a systimatic raccist teaching to hate both Israel and America. Which is thus deligitimizing the civillians of these nations. Muslims have to seperate and promote a central message of peace and denounce any hate. They can still be very vocal critically and in opposition to what they perceive as wrongs done. There is no denying that foreign policy has helped fuel some of these problems, but they are not the fundemntal root causes of the problem.
Aspects of the faith are the root cause, which allows a perceived injustice to Muslims. Where it does not take much to view some verses that call for the defence of your homes and then apply killing and murdering in defence of islam. Which is what the extremists argue and do

Hence again Islam needs a central athority that denounces any violence or murder.

Condemning this attack and ISIS won't make a difference. ISIS already know that they're being condemned all over the place anyway. I wouldn't expect anyone to actually celebrate it obviously, but it's not a competition to see who is most outraged about it.

What matters is what is done about it. I don't think much can be done tbh. If these terrorists are French citizens and were not already suspected of being terrorists, nobody can do anything about future ones either. If they were suspected, then people will say - lock up anyone suspected of being extremists before they can kill anyone, and then others will say - that's not fair!

If they were from outside France, there will be more backlash against Muslim refugees, and Merkel will be even more unpopular for her open invitation, which may have enabled ISIS terrorists to enter Europe. The countries which said they wouldn't take Muslims will say they were right all along, and others may well decide they're not going to do so either.

Original Quill wrote:

Lord Foul wrote:AND ...the left sing

keep calm and carry on dieing for the cause

Why?  What do you suggest?

quill...i honestly havnt a clue...i think its gone too far now...too many years of lefty/liberalist whingeing has done the damage....welcome to the future...the west bombed into a 3rd world shit hole thanks to that.

what would YOU do? oh thats right sit there smiling and rubbing your pudgy fingers together "fidling while rome burns" giving asinine advice to "carry on regardless"

you would consider my soulution too extreme, but you are too leftyfied to understand the soundness of the principle of "fight fire with fire"

My post, "crimes against humanity" sassy said, no answer from sassy when I said ditto from hamas who she supports.

Raggamuffin wrote:Condemning this attack and ISIS won't make a difference. ISIS already know that they're being condemned all over the place anyway. I wouldn't expect anyone to actually celebrate it obviously, but it's not a competition to see who is most outraged about it.

What matters is what is done about it. I don't think much can be done tbh. If these terrorists are French citizens and were not already suspected of being terrorists, nobody can do anything about future ones either. If they were suspected, then people will say - lock up anyone suspected of being extremists before they can kill anyone, and then others will say - that's not fair!

If they were from outside France, there will be more backlash against Muslim refugees, and Merkel will be even more unpopular for her open invitation, which may have enabled ISIS terrorists to enter Europe. The countries which said they wouldn't take Muslims will say they were right all along, and others may well decide they're not going to do so either.

Of course it will not make any difference to Isis when already other acts of murder and terrorism are justified and glorified already Rags. Which then basically adds weight to the extremist cause, because others are taught to hate and justfiy acts of violence. Which needs combating, as otherwise this problem will continue to increase and get worse/ Where i do not want to see a position where all Muslims in the west end up being ostracised. This conflict is not going to be won by the rules govermning the conventions of war. Again such rules end up going out of the window when soldiers are engaged in combat

There needs to be a centralised voice condemning all hate and violence, as when they condemn an ISIS terrorist attack and yet fail to condemn those who claim those who murder israeli civillians are to them martyrs. Then Muslim religious leaders are going to be unable to seperate the justification and hate taught in islam. hence why they need to condemn all hate and violence as unislamic. If though the central blame is centred on the extrenmists by Muslims, then the extremists lose the islamic and Muslim status. They will lose the biggest tool they have to justify their cause.

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Condemning this attack and ISIS won't make a difference. ISIS already know that they're being condemned all over the place anyway. I wouldn't expect anyone to actually celebrate it obviously, but it's not a competition to see who is most outraged about it.

What matters is what is done about it. I don't think much can be done tbh. If these terrorists are French citizens and were not already suspected of being terrorists, nobody can do anything about future ones either. If they were suspected, then people will say - lock up anyone suspected of being extremists before they can kill anyone, and then others will say - that's not fair!

If they were from outside France, there will be more backlash against Muslim refugees, and Merkel will be even more unpopular for her open invitation, which may have enabled ISIS terrorists to enter Europe. The countries which said they wouldn't take Muslims will say they were right all along, and others may well decide they're not going to do so either.

Of course it will not make any difference to Isis when already other acts of murder and terrorism are justified and glorified already Rags. Which then basically adds weight to the extremist cause, because others are taught to hate and justfiy acts of violence. Which needs combating, as otherwise this problem will continue to increase and get worse/ Where i do not want to see a position where all Muslims in the west end up being ostracised. This conflict is not going to be won by the rules govermning the conventions of war. Again such rules end up going out of the window when soldiers are engaged in combat

There needs to be a centralised voice condemning all hate and violence, as when they condemn an ISIS terrorist attack and yet fail to condemn those who claim those who murder israeli civillians are to them martyrs. Then Muslim religious leaders are going to be unable to seperate the justification and hate taught in islam. hence why they need to condemn all hate and violence as unislamic

As I said, it won't make a difference if everyone condemned all hate and violence. It won't make ISIS stop, and it won't stop people trying to stop them either. ISIS think they're right to go on the rampage through the Middle East, so they see any attempt to stop them as an attack on them, and then they think they have the right to retaliate. Nobody will agree as to who is doing the attacking, and who is doing the retaliating.

When the recover the bodies [or bits of them] they shouldnot be given to relatives for burial. They should be wrapped in pigskin and dumped in the sea!!!

Look at this forum. There have been apologists for the IRA FFS. I bet they won't defend ISIS for the murder of all those people in Paris, and yet they will defend the IRA on the grounds that they were "freedom fighters".

PS doing that they would not get their Virgins, it might discourage a few from murder

here ya go didge...you asked where all these "syrian terrorists were" in threads on the refugees


well here's one of em at least


Two passports are reported to have been recovered from the eight assailants - one from Syria and the other from Egypt.

from http://news.sky.com/story/1587719/one-bomber-was-french-man-with-is-links

Raggamuffin wrote:

Didge wrote:


Of course it will not make any difference to Isis when already other acts of murder and terrorism are justified and glorified already Rags. Which then basically adds weight to the extremist cause, because others are taught to hate and justfiy acts of violence. Which needs combating, as otherwise this problem will continue to increase and get worse/ Where i do not want to see a position where all Muslims in the west end up being ostracised. This conflict is not going to be won by the rules govermning the conventions of war. Again such rules end up going out of the window when soldiers are engaged in combat

There needs to be a centralised voice condemning all hate and violence, as when they condemn an ISIS terrorist attack and yet fail to condemn those who claim those who murder israeli civillians are to them martyrs. Then Muslim religious leaders are going to be unable to seperate the justification and hate taught in islam. hence why they need to condemn all hate and violence as unislamic

As I said, it won't make a difference if everyone condemned all hate and violence. It won't make ISIS stop, and it won't stop people trying to stop them either. ISIS think they're right to go on the rampage through the Middle East, so they see any attempt to stop them as an attack on them, and then they think they have the right to retaliate. Nobody will agree as to who is doing the attacking, and who is doing the retaliating.

If the view taughis centralized that such views are fundementally wrong. Then yes it would make a huge difference on the religious conscience of many Muslims. it is then going to create more promotin of peace and also more condemning any violence. At present where one act of terror is condemned and another goes unchallenged, then the condemnation becomes void and hypocritical.  So if you have many Muslims belief such views are wrong then support will fall dramatically for extremist ideals. it is taking anyway any justification found in the faith and thus deligitimizing extremists as Muslims
Religion itself based on a literal belief can have a very powerful affect through endorsement of religious authorities. Take an opposite example with the call for the crusades.
literal believers who justify hate and violence are then  left with being ostracized by the Muslim community throughout the world at large. At the monent when other hate and violence goes unchallenged, thenislam then reamins conflicting through an uncentralised authority.

Lord Foul wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Why?  What do you suggest?

quill...i honestly havnt a clue...i think its gone too far now...too many years of lefty/liberalist whingeing has done the damage....welcome to the future...the west bombed into a 3rd world shit hole thanks to that.

what would YOU do?  oh thats right sit there smiling and rubbing your pudgy fingers together "fidling while rome burns" giving asinine advice to "carry on regardless"

you would consider my soulution too extreme, but you are too leftyfied to understand the soundness of the principle of "fight fire with fire"

I haven't heard your solution. I asked, and you said "I honestly haven't a clue."

And my fingers aren't pudgy; I happen to have extraordinary long, graceful fingers.

Along the LW - RW spectrum, I would say this is an issue where the RW calls for bombing the crap outta 'em, and posting 3-million of our sons in harms way. This isn't an issue of coddling the poor or the rich getting richer...no, its an issue of war.

Having helped you this far...again, I ask, What do you suggest?

BTW, I think the Paris police did an outstanding job. Witnesses said they were on the scene in 2-3 minutes. Credit where credit is due.

nicko wrote:When the recover the bodies  [or bits of them] they shouldnot be given to relatives for burial. They should be wrapped in pigskin and dumped in the sea!!!

And that will help calm down the situation how exactly?

and Enochs nightmare comes one step closer

Cass, read my PS.

Lord Foul wrote:and Enochs nightmare comes one step closer

Bull....this is history coming back to bite the West in the ass.....why the hell no one can see that is beyond me.

nicko wrote:Cass, read my PS.

no Nicko. It would only give them yet another PR point to use. The tit for tat mentality has got to stop otherwise it is a never ending cycle.

Lord Foul wrote:here ya go didge...you asked where all these "syrian terrorists were" in threads on the refugees


well here's one of em at least


Two passports are reported to have been recovered from the eight assailants - one from Syria and the other from Egypt.

from  http://news.sky.com/story/1587719/one-bomber-was-french-man-with-is-links

Was talking about this earlier if any would be.
Well it shows allowing people through unchecked was flawed and in error.
I still believe we should allow entry through checking refugees. Now if they do not have the ability, then sadly some genuine refugees are going to end up being turned back. I also think its wrong to play into the hands of ISIS, who want refugees denied. This is why I stated, we need to change the rules on those who follow and justfiy terrorism, that they have no right to stay promoting such hate, as their views back terrorism. They then should be classified as a terrorist. We need to stop allowing people that justify such hate and violence through a belief to be classified as they should be if they back terrorism

Cass wrote:

nicko wrote:When the recover the bodies  [or bits of them] they shouldnot be given to relatives for burial. They should be wrapped in pigskin and dumped in the sea!!!

And that will help calm down the situation how exactly?

It could be a deterrent, depending on whether Islamic terrorists care what happens to their bodies after death or not.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Cass wrote:

And that will help calm down the situation how exactly?

It could be a deterrent, depending on whether Islamic terrorists care what happens to their bodies after death or not.

If someone is willing to die for a cause, they already believe that their souls will get their reward, desecration to their remains will only enrage those left behind.

Didge wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

As I said, it won't make a difference if everyone condemned all hate and violence. It won't make ISIS stop, and it won't stop people trying to stop them either. ISIS think they're right to go on the rampage through the Middle East, so they see any attempt to stop them as an attack on them, and then they think they have the right to retaliate. Nobody will agree as to who is doing the attacking, and who is doing the retaliating.

If the view taughis centralized that such views are fundementally wrong. Then yes it would make a huge difference on the religious conscience of many Muslims. it is then going to create more promotin of peace and also more condemning any violence. At present where one act of terror is condemned and another goes unchallenged, then the condemnation becomes void and hypocritical.  So if you have many Muslims belief such views are wrong then support will fall dramatically for extremist ideals. it is taking anyway any justification found in the faith and thus deligitimizing extremists as Muslims
Religion itself based on a literal belief can have a very powerful affect through endorsement of religious authorities. Take an opposite example with the call for the crusades.
literal believers who justify hate and violence are then  left with being ostracized by the Muslim community throughout the world at large. At the monent when other hate and violence goes unchallenged, thenislam then reamins conflicting through an uncentralised authority.

It still wouldn't make a difference. ISIS are Muslims, despite the denials by someone on here. However, they are not just Muslims, they are a group of people who want power and to exert their will. Telling them that they're "wrong" is not suddenly going to make them change their minds. They don't care if other Muslims condemn them - they're targeting a lot of Muslims anyway.

Raggamuffin wrote:

Cass wrote:

And that will help calm down the situation how exactly?

It could be a deterrent, depending on whether Islamic terrorists care what happens to their bodies after death or not.

We should not be openly seen to be as unethical as the extremists are, as then the view to champion peace over their extremism becomes redundent by such a measure and will in fact end up drawing more Muslims to their cause. as again it will be played off as evidence to a fabricated claim that the west is trying to destroy Islam. hence why such a policy would be an attack on islam itself denying burield rights to believers.
If though the religious leaders classified them as apsotates for their unislamic beliefs that conflict with islam, then it would actually help deligitimize terrorists as Muslims. When you think about if, if backed by a the Muslim authorities, it would further be a united stance that would deny extremists being classified as Muslims


Difficult to judge but again it would need a islamic rulling which would deem them as apostates, due to their unislamic beliefs.

Cass wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:

It could be a deterrent, depending on whether Islamic terrorists care what happens to their bodies after death or not.

If someone is willing to die for a cause, they already believe that their souls will be their reward, desecration to their remains will only enrage those left behind.

I don't know how an Islamic terrorist thinks, so I don't know if they would care or not.