We've been wrong about addiction all along

Fascinating video, I'd like to hear what others think about this.

It's interesting.  One of the problems with changing our beliefs about addiction is the vested interest that certain people have in recovery centers.

Recovery centers are designed to meet the current pattern of addiction, and they make a lot of money, which tends to harden things, don't you know?  I mean, how easy would it be to break our addiction to petrol fuel?  Addiction recovery centers are the same as the oil or automobile industry.  They make a lot of money and they like us coming back.

I have already discovered the flaw of the addiction myth.  There is no such thing as an alcoholic; we are all alcoholics.  I routinely visited the pub, or otherwise had a cocktail hour.  When Becky and I were out to dinner, it always started with a whisky, followed by wine with the meal.  When I stopped drinking almost two years ago, on doctors orders, I expected cravings and body aches, etc.  But it was as easy as putting a book back on the shelf.  One day it was out; the next day it was put back on the shelf.  Change your habit pattern, that's all.

This revealed that there is no cadre of alcoholic zombies wandering around the planet.  Mom isn't a closet drinker by chemistry, but by routine.  Change your habits, that's all.  There are a lot of people for whom a trip to the pub, or a bottle of wine at dinner, is a habit.  Stop it.  There's no tractor-beam pulling you back into drinking.

I've never had an attraction to drugs or other substances, but I can certainly believe what the clip says about it being only your cage. Change your pattern and it's gone.

Original Quill wrote:It's interesting.  One of the problems with changing our beliefs about addiction is the vested interest that certain people have in recovery centers.

Recovery centers are designed to meet the current pattern of addiction, and they make a lot of money, which tends to harden things, don't you know?  I mean, how easy would it be to break our addiction to petrol fuel?  Addiction recovery centers are the same as the oil or automobile industry.  They make a lot of money and they like us coming back.

I have already discovered the flaw of the addiction myth.  There is no such thing as an alcoholic; we are all alcoholics.  I routinely visited the pub, or otherwise had a cocktail hour.  When Becky and I were out to dinner, it always started with a whisky, followed by wine with the meal.  When I stopped drinking almost two years ago, on doctors orders, I expected cravings and body aches, etc.  But it was as easy as putting a book back on the shelf.  One day it was out; the next day it was put back on the shelf.  Change your habit pattern, that's all.

This revealed that there is no cadre of alcoholic zombies wandering around the planet.  Mom isn't a closet drinker by chemistry, but by routine.  Change your habits, that's all.  There are a lot of people for whom a trip to the pub, or a bottle of wine at dinner, is a habit.  Stop it.  There's no tractor-beam pulling you back into drinking.

I've never had an attraction to drugs or other substances, but I can certainly believe what the clip says about it being only your cage.  Change your pattern and it's gone.

I agree -- I also think there's a certain mythology that people who don't consider themselves addicts like to believe in, that addiction happens to those who are lacking in willpower or are otherwise weak. People also seem to think that you choose to become an addict, but as the research points out, you're really going to become addicted to something -- whether it's healthy or not -- no matter what.

I just think this categorization of who is, and who is not an addict is false. I think people want the distinction because it builds up their own ego to say, Well, of course I'm not an alcoholic.. My dear old daddy, who taught medicine at Harvard Medical School, used to say: If you have more than two drinks more than two nights in a row, you're an alcoholic. In other words, it's not something about your body, it's about your habit.

When I hear, 'Oh, he's an addict', I think, well, so are you. Alcohol affects everyone in the same way...no one is particularly susceptible to it. Just some people get into the habit.

Being an alcoholic isn't about needing a drink or how many you have, it's about the fact that you don't have the 'switch' to stop.

Now this interests me, as a family member of mine is an alcoholic.

She has explained to me that she can never, ever drink again. She has been sober for four years. She went to, and still attends AA meetings and has done the 12 steps. They have instilled in her that addiction is prevalent within her and that she can never touch alcohol again.

My argument is this; if they have changed her mindset, if they have changed the way she perceives alcohol (ie not as a solution nor as a "fix") why can't she drink again - glass of wine at dinner, occasional wine when out etc - because she has now reprogrammed her mind surely?
She insists that she can't do that because she doesn't know when to stop when she starts and that the one glass of wine at dinner will always be another and another.....

When she stopped drinking she became a coffee addict. Had to stop drinking so much coffee and then became a chocolate addict, now she's a gym addict.


I think there are some people more prone to addictive behaviour.

I don't know, eds. I agree with your earlier assessment: why can't she?

First, AA is a social club, not really rehabilitative. They have meetings, hail one another, tell jokes, occasional readings, and then go home. My brother-in-law was a member and I heard about it all.

Second, there's no physiological proof that addiction exists. We all are affected by alcohol the same way. The only difference is, in conventional terms, some handle it better than others. But that's in the habit patterns, not in any chemical or organic response.

I think the whole set of rituals that have grown up around alcoholics is to extol those who are not. If I can call you an alcoholic, that makes me an angel, innit?

To be honest, I've been drinking more lately than I'd like. I've found that keeping a scoresheet has helped -- not mindlessly pouring one drink after another, but seeing how many you've had so far. I feel a lot better too.

I'm with you on that Quill; I'm sceptical about labelling people "addicts" - surely it's more about willpower and breaking habits than a gene?

Think of it this way: there is a huge debate out there between whether alcoholism is an malady problem, or a problem with personal discipline. If it's malady, then alcoholics are sick and cannot be held responsible for their illness. If it's a personal discipline problem, then we need laws, enforcement and institutionalization.

What has happened is that capitalists have seen that there is a lot of money to be made if it is a malady problem...rehab centers, medicines and counselor fees. So they send out signals that entice people in...pay them money for resorts, quick-cure medicines and empaths who will pat you on the back and help you with your pottery class. They preach understanding...stage interventions, gently tell you what denial is, forgive you for relapses, and all the while, handing you the bill. Well hell...you pay me enough and I'll groom your feathers, too.

The philosophy of tough love was invented by Synanon, a self-help group for drug addicts, in order to treat in between the above two philosophies. Yes, it is an illness, inasmuch as it has a altering effect on the mind and body. But no, you don't need understanding and petting; you need a good spanking. Now, there are a lot of bad people associated with Synanon, I admit, but I think they have the right message.

AA is not a social club.

Cass wrote:AA is not a social club.

It sure as hell isn't.

Cass wrote:AA is not a social club.

But it acts like one.  All they do is give themselves inter-subjective support, and pats on the back.

They don't run any hospitals. like Cancer Treatment Centers of America.  They don't support any research, like Johns Hopkins Medical Center or Stanford Cancer Center.  They don't raise money like MDA.  All they ever do is act like a...well, a social club.

Of course, that may have something to do with the wrong direction taken by those concerned about alcohol.  (See above.)  If they don't even understand the problem, and if big business gets involved, it's Katy bar the door!

Original Quill wrote:

Cass wrote:AA is not a social club.

But it acts like one.  All they do is give themselves inter-subjective support, and pats on the back.

They don't run any hospitals. like Cancer Treatment Centers of America.  They don't support any research, like Johns Hopkins Medical Center or Stanford Cancer Center.  They don't raise money like MDA.  All they ever do is act like a...well, a social club.

Of course, that may have something to do with the wrong direction taken by those concerned about alcohol.  (See above.)  If they don't even understand the problem, and if big business gets involved, it's Katy bar the door!

Uh huh

Original Quill wrote:

Cass wrote:AA is not a social club.

But it acts like one.  All they do is give themselves inter-subjective support, and pats on the back.

They don't run any hospitals. like Cancer Treatment Centers of America.  They don't support any research, like Johns Hopkins Medical Center or Stanford Cancer Center.  They don't raise money like MDA.  All they ever do is act like a...well, a social club.

Of course, that may have something to do with the wrong direction taken by those concerned about alcohol.  (See above.)  If they don't even understand the problem, and if big business gets involved, it's Katy bar the door!

Uh huh

Don't think Quill has ever heard of



Research

Investigating the Causes, Consequences, Prevention, and Treatment of Alcohol Use Disorder and Alcohol-Related Problems

The National Institute on Alcohol Abuse and Alcoholism (NIAAA) is the lead agency for U.S. research on alcohol abuse, alcoholism, and other health and developmental effects of alcohol use. Our mission is to support research, and then translate and disseminate research findings to reduce alcohol-related problems.

• NIAAA Extramural Research

  NIAAA extramural grant support for research to advance our understanding of the impact of alcohol on human health and well-being
  

• NIAAA Intramural Program

  NIAAA's Division of Intramural Clinical and Biological Research (DICBR), including the Office of the Scientific Director and NIAAA laboratories
  

• Major Research Initiatives

  NIAAA’s Major Initiatives seek to address alcohol-related issues across the lifespan
  

• Guidelines and Resources

  Guidance and policies for scientists pursuing alcohol research
  

http://www.niaaa.nih.gov/research


or

http://alcoholresearchuk.org/

or

All the other centres of research into alcohol addiction all over the world.

Sassy wrote:Don't think Quill has ever heard of...

No, we were talking about AA.

Like I said, a family member attends AA
Now all I know is, it's helped her - without it she would have gone down the wrong road permanently.

But!

Somehow, I do think they put this "notion" in their members heads that they are permanently banned from ever drinking.
If you can change your mindset then you have sorted the problem? After all, drink wasn't the problem - her attitudes and thoughts toward it, were the problem...right?

eddie wrote:Like I said, a family member attends AA
Now all I know is, it's helped her - without it she would have gone down the wrong road permanently.

But!

Somehow, I do think they put this "notion" in their members heads that they are permanently banned from ever drinking.
If you can change your mindset then you have sorted the problem? After all, drink wasn't the problem - her attitudes and thoughts toward it, were the problem...right?

yes i think so

if you are never touch a drink but think about it every day you are NOT cured.

Addiction is really not being able to get the object of your addiction out of your thoughts, If you are thinking "don't drink, don't
 drink" then you are still addicted just fighting it.

it is the point where you can have a drink ... and stop ... and not think about 'needing another' that the addiction is Actually cured

Sorry, but I absolutely disagree.  Addiction is a physical problem as well as mental.  People who are addicted to anything, drink, drugs etc, have changes in their brain which alters the brain chemistry and structure.  Once that has happened, if you are lucky enough to find a way of stopping, if you drink or take drugs again these changes will kick in faster.   It's one of the reasons for withdrawal symtoms, when someone is addicted the brain fights to make you take the thing you are addicted to, because it can't work properly without it, because of the changes it has made.

eddie wrote:Like I said, a family member attends AA
Now all I know is, it's helped her - without it she would have gone down the wrong road permanently.

But!

Somehow, I do think they put this "notion" in their members heads that they are permanently banned from ever drinking.
If you can change your mindset then you have sorted the problem? After all, drink wasn't the problem - her attitudes and thoughts toward it, were the problem...right?

There's a better way to do it. Simply outlaw all alcoholic beverages. Of course, there may be people who sell it illegally, but at least that's a lot more certain that having a social club that does no more than "frown" when you have a drink.

Everyone is an alcoholic. It is a chemical that affects every human body the same way. Some people habitually drink, and they need to break the habit.

Some people can break habits on their own; some need a social club to help them. I'm not knocking AA. I'm just saying it's only a social club.

Oh come on Quill, you do remember what prohibition did don't you?  Handed the supply of alcohol over to crooks to make a fortune.

sassy wrote:Sorry, but I absolutely disagree.  Addiction is a physical problem as well as mental.  People who are addicted to anything, drink, drugs etc, have changes in their brain which alters the brain chemistry and structure.  Once that has happened, if you are lucky enough to find a way of stopping, if you drink or take drugs again these changes will kick in faster.  It's one of the reasons for withdrawal symtoms, when someone is addicted the brain fights to make you take the thing you are addicted to, because it can't work properly without it, because of the changes it has made.

I've never had that experience. I drank regularly every night for thirty-five years. When the doctors told me to stop--as I said above, on this thread--it was like putting a book back on the shelf. No cravings. No withdrawal symptoms. No tractor beam pulling me back into drinking. I've read that book and it's back up there on the bookshelf.

It's just a habit. You no longer go to the pubs. You no longer buy a case of beer or a bottle of vodka at the store. You have to break a whole lifestyle of habits...that's what is the challenge. But it's not that hard, really.

sassy wrote:Oh come on Quill, you do remember what prohibition did don't you?  Handed the supply of alcohol over to crooks to make a fortune.

Of course. I'm only saying that making it unlawful would be more certain than organizing a social club around it. I'm not saying any of it is absolute.

I am telling you, my family member is almost "brainwashed"
And when she gave up drinking she got addicted to coffee! Then she switched to decaf coffee - now she's a cake addict! I swear, she swaps one 'addiction' for another.....
But is she really addicted to any of them?

When she drank, she drank too much and thought about it all day.
As Veya rightly said, she still thinks about it, but she tells herself not to.

Most people like this, have other, deeper issues. That's what needs the cure.

I was addicted to Coke, but I use Coal now.

Original Quill wrote:

sassy wrote:Sorry, but I absolutely disagree.  Addiction is a physical problem as well as mental.  People who are addicted to anything, drink, drugs etc, have changes in their brain which alters the brain chemistry and structure.  Once that has happened, if you are lucky enough to find a way of stopping, if you drink or take drugs again these changes will kick in faster.  It's one of the reasons for withdrawal symtoms, when someone is addicted the brain fights to make you take the thing you are addicted to, because it can't work properly without it, because of the changes it has made.

I've never had that experience.  I drank regularly every night for thirty-five years.  When the doctors told me to stop--as I said above, on this thread--it was like putting a book back on the shelf.  No cravings.  No withdrawal symptoms.  No tractor beam pulling me back into drinking.  I've read that book and it's back up there on the bookshelf.

It's just a habit.  You no longer go to the pubs.  You no longer buy a case of beer or a bottle of vodka at the store.  You have to break a whole lifestyle of habits...that's what is the challenge.  But it's not that hard, really.

Then Quill, you were not an addict, you simply had a habit.  No one knows why some please can stick with a habit and some people have the changes in their brain that makes them addicted.  Someone with a habit will wake up in the morning and get on with their day, someone who is addicted will wake up and NEED the substance to which they are addicted, not to feel high etc, but to function, because now their brain needs it to function.    Many people have to have high doses of pain killers prescribed by a doctor after a bad injury, illness, operation.  Most will stop when they no longer need it.  Some will get the chemical changes in their brain that mean they are addicted to it and can't stop.  That is why so many people are addicted to prescribed drugs.  In fact, there are probably more addicted to prescription drubs than anything else, it's just that the doctors normally handle it.

sassy wrote:Then Quill, you were not an addict, you simply had a habit.  No one knows why some please can stick with a habit and some people have the changes in their brain that makes them addicted.  Someone with a habit will wake up in the morning and get on with their day, someone who is addicted will wake up and NEED the substance to which they are addicted, not to feel high etc, but to function, because now their brain needs it to function.    Many people have to have high doses of pain killers prescribed by a doctor after a bad injury, illness, operation.  Most will stop when they no longer need it.  Some will get the chemical changes in their brain that mean they are addicted to it and can't stop.  That is why so many people are addicted to prescribed drugs.  In fact, there are probably more addicted to prescription drubs than anything else, it's just that the doctors normally handle it.

It's not easy to be iconoclastic and go against the grain of popular opinion.  But yep, that's what I'm doing.  And with the big money boys now in the fray, it's even harder.

But every once in a while an illogical bit of snake oil gets sold to an unsuspecting public, and when you realize it you've got to speak up.  As an example (and only an example), Dr. John Harvey Kellogg sold a load of bullshit to the American public back in Victorian days, that circumcision "will halt the evils of masturbation."  Suddenly there was a generation of males who had their penis's tips cut off...and the habit continues to the present (the justification today has shifted from moral hygiene to physical/scientific hygiene, but it's still a myth).

So these crazy myths get started nationally, and then they are infused with money, and this assures that they will become a permanent part of our life.  Vaginal yeast infections were a minor inconvenience until Vagisil® invested some big money in a cure, and lo, now it's a big deal.  When big money gets involved in these things, it cements the myth.

I believe we are seeing the same thing happen with the institutionalization of alcohol-related matters.  It started, also, in the Victorian days, and the US experiment with 18th-Amendment prohibition was the result:

History Channel wrote:By the late 1800s, prohibition movements had sprung up across the United States, driven by religious groups who considered alcohol, specifically drunkenness, a threat to the nation.

It was essentially a moral issue.  But, just as the justifications for circumcision have moved from moral argument to become more pseudo-scientific, so the rage against alcohol has become more pseudo-scientific.  It is no longer an issue of moral turpitude, but an issue of scientific reasoning: we speak of "chemical dependency" and the "dopamine system", and claim it "simulate[s] a specific neurotransmitter and interact[s] with a specific neurotransmitter system," when the fact is.....we just don't like to be around drunks.

I agree: I don't like being around drunks either.  They get off into another world and become uncommunicative.  They exaggerate their worlds, and become overly aggressive bullies.  But let's call it what it is.  Drop the pseudo-scientific noise and admit, the reason is their anti-social behavior.

Anyway...where was I?  Oh yes...AA is just a social club of ex-drunks, who substitute for the pub, the local meeting hall for the Rotary Club.

Sassy some alcoholics don't need drink, it's not about need or how much one consumes, it's about not having the switch to say "enough".

If you can go a few years or a set amount of time learning how to alter the way you use the switch, then you were never addicted, you simply needed to be reprogrammed.

eddie wrote:Sassy some alcoholics don't need drink, it's not about need or how much one consumes, it's about not having the switch to say "enough".

If you can go a few years or a set amount of time learning how to alter the way you use the switch, then you were never addicted, you simply needed to be reprogrammed.

"some" as you say, but not all. It is an actual physical addiction.

AA certainly hasn't been a social hour or brainwashing my relatives. It has helped kept them from dying. Simple. Some haven't become addicted to other things such as caffeine, cigs etc... and some have.

I know personally that I can never ever pick up another cigarette because that will be all it takes to get me smoking again even though it will give me a headache and make me feel sick because I have been down that road before.

Cass wrote:

eddie wrote:Sassy some alcoholics don't need drink, it's not about need or how much one consumes, it's about not having the switch to say "enough".

If you can go a few years or a set amount of time learning how to alter the way you use the switch, then you were never addicted, you simply needed to be reprogrammed.

"some" as you say, but not all. It is an actual physical addiction.

AA certainly hasn't been a social hour or brainwashing my relatives. It has helped kept them from dying. Simple. Some haven't become addicted to other things such as caffeine, cigs etc... and some have.

I know personally that I can never ever pick up another cigarette because that will be all it takes to get me smoking again even though it will give me a headache and make me feel sick because I have been down that road before.

Absolutely agree.  I don't think, unless you have lived with or been an addict, you know what real addiction is.  It's physical as well as mental.

My family member is a close one and we've been with her throughout her drinking.
She never got physically addicted - hers was mental - perhaps that's where the difference lies? I would concede that point.

I don't think calling the AA a "social club" is a fair description though; it's almost like a church, in fact, the AA is very god-based actually.

eddie wrote:My family member is a close one and we've been with her throughout her drinking.
She never got physically addicted - hers was mental - perhaps that's  where the difference lies? I would concede that point.

I don't think calling the AA a "social club" is a fair description though; it's almost like a church, in fact, the AA is very god-based actually.

Think that is the difference Eddie, a real addict will have terrible withdrawal symptoms, sometimes they can die from them.

And I certainly wouldn't call it a social club, it's there for emotional support and help and education on how to stop and will welcome back those that fail to try again over and over, it never gives up on them.

They do have a great social life though! My family member has just come back from abroad; nearly all her AA group went. Fun time had by all, and all sober!

I have multiple friends that have become meth/ice addicts.

Alcohol addiction is minor compared to what they go through. Only 1 of about 6 has actually stopped being a junkie
And even then he had kids and a very supportive partner to do it.

the others have had various attempts, the problem is you cant quit forever if you still think about it all the time... they are never the same when they are thinking about it.

Brainwashing is prevalent in every area of life.
It'll get you at some point.

And Eddie is right it is called advertising... Television, Newspaper, Radio, Video Games let alone any Club or institution Even School... 

I do think the AA to church comparison is very accurate

Cass wrote:

eddie wrote:Sassy some alcoholics don't need drink, it's not about need or how much one consumes, it's about not having the switch to say "enough".

If you can go a few years or a set amount of time learning how to alter the way you use the switch, then you were never addicted, you simply needed to be reprogrammed.

"some" as you say, but not all. It is an actual physical addiction.

Yes.  It's a physical condition that everyone has.  Some have better discipline than others.

By saying that AA is a social club, I don't intend to demean social clubs.  If they help you with your habits, it's ok.  After all, country clubs help you better your golf or tennis game.  But don't tell me that alcoholism is something that some are immune to.  Everyone is an alcoholic...it's a malady that anyone can get, but good habits keep in check.