Israel creating conditions for another "Defensive Shield"

by Guest Mon Oct 05, 2015 2:48 pm

First topic message reminder :

“The Palestinian people, like all peoples of conscience and moral responsibility, condemn the use of violence against innocent civilians. However, Palestine, under Israel’s belligerent occupation, has been subject to the systematic and escalating violence of the occupation, whether in the form of settler-terrorism or at the hands of the Israeli military using live ammunition. Recently Palestine has witnessed an alarming and deliberate escalation by Israel, particularly against Al-Aqsa Mosque and Jerusalem’s Old City, while settlers on the rampage enjoy the protection of occupation forces and the political backing of the Israeli government.

This year alone, the Israeli Occupation Forces have attacked thousands of Palestinian civilians, and carried out over 3,000 raids on Palestinian cities and villages. Additionally, the Israeli forces murdered over 30 Palestinians and imprisoned over 3,500 others. This does not include settler violence against the Palestinian civilian population which amounted to more than 11,000 attacks in the last 10 years.

The Palestinian leadership has warned the international community for decades that Israel’s culture of impunity is destroying any prospects of peace and has created an unsustainable situation of instability, racism and violence.

The root cause of violence in the Middle East is the continued injustice inflicted on the Palestinian people and the persistent impunity of the Israeli occupation. Benjamin Netanyahu’s right-wing extremist government continues to deny Palestinian rights and incite violence, clearly indicating that ending this system of occupation and apartheid is not an option.

Netanyahu is under the delusion that he can convince his own people and the international community that he can “manage the situation.” This is not only morally deplorable; it is also politically irresponsible and effectively unsustainable. Never has a people under foreign occupation accepted the systematic violation of their rights and freedoms.

The collective punishment that the Palestinian people have suffered over the past 48 hours, including Israeli settler and military attacks against civilians, proves that the Israeli government is deliberately creating a situation of violence and instability that threatens to spiral out of control. This government is thereby attempting to create the conditions for a new “Defensive Shield” operation similar to that of 2002 in which the Israeli Army carried out the senseless destruction of Palestinian lives, infrastructure and institutions. That operation was launched with steps similar to those being adopted now, including the sealing of Occupied Jerusalem and the fragmentation of the rest of Palestine with hundreds of checkpoints, while giving free reign to the settlers to continue their attacks.

It is time for the international community to undertake its responsibility and to engage positively to put an end to this lethal situation. Palestine has already asked for international protection in accordance with several legal and precedential options available to the United Nations. The heightened urgency is evidenced by the intensification and escalation of violence and extremism threatening to engulf not just Palestine and Israel but the whole region as wel .”

http://dci.plo.ps/EN/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=3800:october-4-2015-dr-ashrawi-on-the-current-situation&catid=92:news&Itemid=420

The Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, commonly referred to as the Fourth Geneva Convention and abbreviated as GCIV, is one of the four treaties of the Geneva Conventions. It was adopted in August 1949, and defines humanitarian protections for civilians in a war zone. There are currently 196 countries party to the 1949 Geneva Conventions, including this and the other three treaties.^[1]
In 1993, the United Nations Security Council adopted a report from the Secretary-General and a Commission of Experts which concluded that the Geneva Conventions had passed into the body of customary international law, thus making them binding on non-signatories to the Conventions whenever they engage in armed conflicts.^[2]

Section I. Provisions common to the territories of the parties to the conflict and to occupied territories

Article 32. A protected person/s shall not have anything done to them of such a character as to cause physical suffering or extermination ... the physical suffering or extermination of protected persons in their hands. This prohibition applies not only to murder, torture, corporal punishments, mutilation and medical or scientific experiments not necessitated by the medical treatment. While popular debate remains on what constitutes a legal definition of torture (see discussion on the Torture page), the ban on corporal punishment simplifies the matter; even the most mundane physical abuse is thereby forbidden by Article 32, as a precaution against alternate definitions of torture.
The prohibition on scientific experiments was added, in part, in response to experiments by German and Japanese doctors during World War II, of whom Josef Mengele was the most infamous.

Collective punishments

Article 33. No persons may be punished for an offense he or she has not personally committed. Collective penalties and likewise all measures of intimidation or of terrorism are prohibited.
Pillage is prohibited.
Reprisals against persons and their property are prohibited.

Under the 1949 Geneva Conventions, collective punishment is a war crime. By collective punishment, the drafters of the Geneva Conventions had in mind the reprisal killings of World War I and World War II. In the First World War, the Germans executed Belgian villagers in mass retribution for resistance activity during the Rape of Belgium. In World War II, both the Germans and the Japanese carried out a form of collective punishment to suppress resistance. Entire villages or towns or districts were held responsible for any resistance activity that occurred in them.^[3] The conventions, to counter this, reiterated the principle of individual responsibility. The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) Commentary to the conventions states that parties to a conflict often would resort to "intimidatory measures to terrorize the population" in hopes of preventing hostile acts, but such practices "strike at guilty and innocent alike. They are opposed to all principles based on humanity and justice."
Additional Protocol II of 1977 explicitly forbids collective punishment

by Raggamuffin Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:04 pm

sassy wrote:Confirmed by Channel 4 News:

https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10153264213201939/

I just get it before they do.

So the Palestinians set something on fire in the road, and then threw large stones at the vehicles?

I must say that this rock throwing gets on my nerves.

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:12 pm

Life-Threatening Stone-Throwing Dangerously Played Down

In coverage of new policies in response an upsurge in Palestinian violence, Reuters quoted Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, “The Security Cabinet unanimously adopted a series of measures within the framework of our fight against stone throwers, petrol bombs and flares.”
The article goes on to say:

The Israeli human rights group B'Tselem lists 12 Palestinian minors who were shot and killed by Israeli forces during protests and clashes in the West Bank in 2014. In at least four of those incidents, Israel said the youngsters had been throwing rocks or petrol bombs, according to B'Tselem.

Beyond the well-documented mischaracterization of B’Tselem as a “human rights group,” media coverage of this particular issue positions the violence as little more than children acting out, grossly underestimating the danger inherent in these violent attacks, which often include Molotov cocktails and explosive devices. While sometimes the perpetrators are the “youngsters” Reuters considers them, they are regularly teenagers and adults who are the same age, if not older, than the IDF forces attempting to stop them.
On numerous occasions, CAMERA has documented the true life-threatening nature of these attacks. Recently, one man died after he crashed his car in a desperate attempt to escape a rock-flinging crowd, a couple described the terror of being encircled by Palestinians wielding stones with the intention to kill them and their five-month old daughter, and a recently posted video reveals just one instance of Palestinian “youngsters” converging on a car and pummeling it with rocks.

http://blog.camera.org/archives/2015/10/lifethreatening_stonethrowing.html

Have to watch the video of the car being attacked, utterly disgusting, which is on the link.

Mind you every now again there is Karma:

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:16 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
sassy wrote:Confirmed by Channel 4 News:

https://www.facebook.com/Channel4News/videos/10153264213201939/

I just get it before they do.

So the Palestinians set something on fire in the road, and then threw large stones at the vehicles?

I must say that this rock throwing gets on my nerves.

Nope, IDF and settlers invaded, Palestinians fought back with the only weapons they have, and I really don't think 'getting on your nerves' comes into the equation with people fighting for their land.

As for Dodge, he's an irrelevance, a sheep and a coward. If Hitler had succeeded in invading and occupied the UK, he would have been one of the ones sucking up to them, and calling anyone who resisted 'scum' and 'rioters'. That's his mindset.

by Raggamuffin Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:21 pm

sassy wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

So the Palestinians set something on fire in the road, and then threw large stones at the vehicles?

I must say that this rock throwing gets on my nerves.

Nope, IDF and settlers invaded, Palestinians fought back with the only weapons they have, and I really don't think 'getting on your nerves' comes into the equation with people fighting for their land.

As for Dodge, he's an irrelevance, a sheep and a coward. If Hitler had succeeded in invading and occupied the UK, he would have been one of the ones sucking up to them, and calling anyone who resisted 'scum' and 'rioters'. That's his mindset.

You think that throwing rocks is the way to go? If someone threw a rock at me, I'd defend myself, but then I don't carry a gun. It's pretty stupid to chuck a rock at someone who is carrying a gun though. If they insist on doing that, of course they'll get shot or arrested. Try chucking a rock at the police or a soldier in the street here - you'd be arrested for assault or attempted murder. You've got so used to seeing it there that you think it's normal.

The article says that the army was looking to arrest two Palestinians. It doesn't say what for. That's not an invasion - the police over here turn up mob-handed if they're looking for someone they consider to be dangerous. The ones setting things on fire in the road and chucking rocks should have minded their own business.

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:21 pm

See invaded, what a load of gibberish.
They have made raids, and then we countless palestinians commit to violence.
Nobody made them do this but themselves.
It is Palestinians rising up committing to violence which is obvious from the many videos now circulating and genuine media sources.

So after my my grandparents both fought for GB against the Nazi's, both not British. For Sassy to grow up knowing peace, she basically insults their memmory by claiming I would surrender to Nazism, even though I daily fight against far right Rhetoric and have done for years. This is all the BDS can do, lie, continue to lie and have no care of the consequences of the hate they promote. Even the Channel 4 video showed clearly Palestinians rioting. Which she also uses the same hate and incitement against Israel.

When will it sink in that both sides leadership need to condemn the violence and call for calm.

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:23 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
sassy wrote:

Nope, IDF and settlers invaded, Palestinians fought back with the only weapons they have, and I really don't think 'getting on your nerves' comes into the equation with people fighting for their land.

As for Dodge, he's an irrelevance, a sheep and a coward. If Hitler had succeeded in invading and occupied the UK, he would have been one of the ones sucking up to them, and calling anyone who resisted 'scum' and 'rioters'. That's his mindset.

You think that throwing rocks is the way to go? If someone threw a rock at me, I'd defend myself, but then I don't carry a gun. It's pretty stupid to chuck a rock at someone who is carrying a gun though. If they insist on doing that, of course they'll get shot or arrested. Try chucking a rock at the police or a soldier in the street here - you'd be arrested for assault or attempted murder. You've got so used to seeing it there that you think it's normal.

The article says that the army was looking to arrest two Palestinians. It doesn't say what for. That's not an invasion - the police over here turn up mob-handed if they're looking for someone they consider to be dangerous. The ones setting things on fire in the road and chucking rocks should have minded their own business.

They saw the settlers and IDF coming, they put tyres in the road as a barrier and defended themselves when the settlers and IDF invaded, as they are legally entitled to do under the Geneva Convention. So Rags, would you be another one who, if we were occupied, would suck up to the occupiers and try and stop people resisting?

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:24 pm

I should add also so have right wing extremist Israeli settelers also committed to violence as well.
This is why I say their needs to be a call for calm.
As both sides are committing to violence which is close to spirralling out of control

Great Post Rags.

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:25 pm

A quick reminder:

The Palestinian’s legal right to resist occupation—to fight for their ability to promote, sustain, and nurture human life, to fight for their right to grow, to flourish—comes from two documents: the 1960 Declaration on the Granting of Independence to Colonial Countries and Peoples and the Fourth Geneva Convention and its subsequent protocols.

Taken together, people have the right to “fight against colonial domination and alien occupation in the exercise of their right to self-determination,”

Above and beyond the basic right of all human beings to resist their being killed and harmed, and a society to take armed actions to protect itself, this document legitimizes also national liberation struggles, including, at this time in history, most particularly, the Palestinian people’s struggle for its own freedom. It is this right which legitimizes all Palestinian attempts to lift the yoke of Israeli oppression from Palestine, including all the actions taken by the Palestinians during Operation Cast Lead.
And is not the right to resist oppression universal? Does this right not justify the American Revolution and then the French Revolution and the wars of liberation in the 1950′s and 1960′s. Nelson Mandela is a hero because of his resistance to, not because of his subservience to apartheid repression. And the Warsaw Ghetto uprising by the Jewish population against the Nazi repression is a beacon of pride in modern Jewish history. it is also a fact that Jews who joined the resistance, say in Poland or other places under Nazi occupation, are heroes for the Jewish people. I would contend that one cannot deny that right of resistance to Palestinians which the Jews appropriated to themselves, and which is the right of all peoples living under military occupation and/or colonialist regimes.

Richard Falk, the UN Special Rapporteur on Palestinian human rights, a professor of international law at Princeton University, the author of dozens of books, writes in “International Law and the Al-Aqsa Intifada”:

Though the Israeli government and the US media persist in describing the second Palestinian intifada as a security crisis or a disruption to the ‘peace process,’ in international law, Palestinian resistance to occupation is a legally protected right…Israel’s failures to abide by international law, as a belligerent occupant, amounted to a fundamental denial of the right of self-determination, and more generally of respect for the framework of belligerent occupation — giving rise to a Palestinian right of resistance.

It boils down to this: every time the Israeli military arrests a Palestinian for “stone throwing” or “incitement” or any other bogus, trumped-up charges—and every time Israel holds a protest organizer or a Popular Committee leader prisoner—it is, perversely, detaining Palestinians for exercising their inalienable moral and legal rights to resist an illegal and violent military occupation.

http://972mag.com/on-the-palestinians-legal-right-to-fight-the-occupation/30855/

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:27 pm

And we are back to Sassy posting unreliable propaganda, spamming the forum with now the same posts.

So in other words saying they are allowed to resists is sassy basically like I said the other day justifiying the murder of the Israeli citizens, we have seen shot and stabbed.
This is what I mean by incitement to violence.
This is why people like Sassy incite hatred, no better than smelly.

by Raggamuffin Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:27 pm

sassy wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

You think that throwing rocks is the way to go? If someone threw a rock at me, I'd defend myself, but then I don't carry a gun. It's pretty stupid to chuck a rock at someone who is carrying a gun though. If they insist on doing that, of course they'll get shot or arrested. Try chucking a rock at the police or a soldier in the street here - you'd be arrested for assault or attempted murder. You've got so used to seeing it there that you think it's normal.

The article says that the army was looking to arrest two Palestinians. It doesn't say what for. That's not an invasion - the police over here turn up mob-handed if they're looking for someone they consider to be dangerous. The ones setting things on fire in the road and chucking rocks should have minded their own business.

They saw the settlers and IDF coming, they put tyres in the road as a barrier and defended themselves when the settlers and IDF invaded, as they are legally entitled to do under the Geneva Convention. So Rags, would you be another one who, if we were occupied, would suck up to the occupiers and try and stop people resisting?

Well of course the IDF will turn up in large numbers - they knew that some idiots are going to chuck rocks at them and set fire to tyres. There's nothing in there about settlers.

They were coming to arrest two people. Do you know what those people had allegedly done? Maybe they were terrorists. I'd want our police to arrest people who were suspected of terrorism as well.

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:28 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:
sassy wrote:

They saw the settlers and IDF coming, they put tyres in the road as a barrier and defended themselves when the settlers and IDF invaded, as they are legally entitled to do under the Geneva Convention. So Rags, would you be another one who, if we were occupied, would suck up to the occupiers and try and stop people resisting?

Well of course the IDF will turn up in large numbers - they knew that some idiots are going to chuck rocks at them and set fire to tyres. There's nothing in there about settlers.

They were coming to arrest two people. Do you know what those people had allegedly done? Maybe they were terrorists. I'd want our police to arrest people who were suspected of terrorism as well.

Good Lord, thought you had a brain. Obviously not.

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:29 pm

The situation in the Israeli Occupied Territories (Gaza, West Bank, Syrian Golan Heights and East Jerusalem) is deplorable. In Gaza, the attack one year ago left unbridled destruction and devastation. Despite Israeli promises to help with rebuilding, not one structure that was destroyed has been rebuilt. On the West Bank Illegal settlers are occupying and building on land that is not theirs with Israel's blessing. These same settlers, especially the young ones, many of them are terrorists and thugs. They are setting fires in the night to Palestinian homes, kidnapping, insulting and assaulting Palestinians. The Israeli military nightly enters Palestinian homes without warrants, without probable cause and ransacks them and many times, arrests one or more of the occupants without just cause. This protection force is absolutely vital and necessary for the survival of the Palestinian Arab population.
Israel creating conditions for another "Defensive Shield" - Page 2 KA

Israel creating conditions for another "Defensive Shield" - Page 2 KA

Petition for International Protection for the West Bank and Gaza just been started

https://www.causes.com/posts/963351

by Raggamuffin Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:31 pm

sassy wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:

Well of course the IDF will turn up in large numbers - they knew that some idiots are going to chuck rocks at them and set fire to tyres. There's nothing in there about settlers.

They were coming to arrest two people. Do you know what those people had allegedly done? Maybe they were terrorists. I'd want our police to arrest people who were suspected of terrorism as well.

Good Lord, thought you had a brain. Obviously not.

Well you posted the video as "evidence", so you tell me what was said in it.

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:33 pm

So more spamming and no link again

Like I say calling for people to resist and commit to violence is thus wanting for this to spiral into a full blodded conflict. Then these same idiots will be the ones then screaming like banshees when innocent children and civillians are caught up inj the middle of all this.
When are these left wing extremist BDS idiots ever learn they are the ones who are the worst at inciting the violence here.

Again a call for peace and calm is needed, not some twit who is sat here in England and knows nothing of this conflict trying to stir up hate to incite violence. Police arresting terrorists is not an occupation but an arrest.

by Raggamuffin Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:33 pm

"They (Israeli soldiers) were looking for my uncle Amjed Alawi, but they did not find him."

Any info on why they were looking for "uncle Amjed Alawi"? No, of course not.

There's simply not enough info there to make a judgement.

by Fuzzy Zack Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:34 pm

Cuchulain wrote:I should add also so have right wing extremist Israeli settelers also committed to violence as well.
This is why I say their needs to be a call for calm.
As both sides are committing to violence which is close to spirralling out of control

Great Post Rags.

Aah! Look at the Zionist Didge back-track ever so quickly in a pretence of balance and impartiality. Lol!

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:35 pm

FROM YESH DIN, AN ISREALI HUMAN RIGHTS GROUP:

Yesh Din has received dozens of complaints from Palestinian residents of the West Bank regarding attacks perpetrated by Israeli citizens following Thursday’s deadly terror attack, in which two Israeli citizens were murdered in the West Bank. Reports of attacks on Palestinian civilians have been received from all over the West Bank: attacks in the vicinity of Palestinian villages, on farmlands and even inside villages. These reports include incidents of Palestinian vehicles stoned at junctions resulting in civilians injured and cars damaged, including an ambulance in Burin; roads leading to Palestinian villages blocked off, homes inside Palestinian villages stoned; attempted arson of a home in al Khader, attempts to break into a home in Burin with metal bars; and torching of olive trees and crops.

It is difficult to estimate the number of Palestinians injured in these attacks, nor is there currently an accurate estimate of damage incurred. However, Yesh Din received reports regarding a number of Palestinian injured from stoning attacks, and damage to dozens of houses and vehicles, and a large number of olive trees torched in a wave of vigilante attacks.

Yesh Din condemns the attacks that took the lives of four Israeli citizens in the West Bank and East Jerusalem and hopes the murderers are apprehended and tried. Yet these attacks cannot justify vigilante acts committed against innocent citizens.

Though large numbers of Israeli security forces personnel have been stationed in the West Bank since the attack on Thursday, according to our reports, several attacks took place in their presence and without their intervention. The IDF is failing to protect Palestinian civilians and their property, as it is obligated to do. Yesh Din calls on Israeli security forces to intervene and prevent attacks against innocent civilians.
Incidents reported in the last few days include the following:

Thursday:

•    Stoning of vehicles in Burin junction, damage to vehicles. These vehicles include an ambulance attacked while carrying a woman and her two children on their way to hospital after inhaling gas fired by Israeli security forces. The road from the village was blocked off and the ambulance prevented from reaching hospital; the three were treated in Burin. Following this attack, a large group of Israeli citizens attempted to break into a house in Burin, armed with metal rods.

Friday:

•    Masked perpetrators descended from the direction of the settlement of Yitzhar towards Burin farmlands, and torched ancient olive trees. When the fire brigade and volunteers from Burin attempted to put out the fire, Israeli citizens standing on the hilltop above sent boulders and a burning tire rolling down. The perpetrators were accompanied by approximately four Israeli security forces personnel, who failed to prevent the attack

•    Dozens of Israeli citizens blocked the entrance to Beitin and hurled rocks at houses. Several Palestinian suffered from anxiety and five houses were damaged.

Saturday:

•    Stones thrown at a car carrying a Palestinian woman and her daughter on the main road in Huwwara resulted in the wounding of the 17 year-old daughter. Israeli security forces personnel were present during the attack.

•    Residents of Burin stoned in the presence of Israeli security forces personnel.
Sunday:

•    Scores of Israeli citizens arrived from the direction of the outpost Esh Kodesh and attacked Palestinian farmers in Qusra. In this case, Israeli security forces personnel acted quickly and dispersed the attackers.

•    Six Israeli citizens hurled flammable liquid at a home situated on the farmlands of al Khader (between settlements Neve Daniel and Alon Shvut) followed by Molotov cocktails, setting fire to the house. The owner, who was outside, witnessed the attack. Police found the remains of a Molotov cocktail and flammable material at the scene. The house was slightly damaged.

•    Masked assailants threw stones at Palestinians in the fields of Urif. One man shot a firearm in the air. Damage was caused to olive trees.

http://www.yesh-din.org/postview.asp?postid=318

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:35 pm

And yet more spamming.

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:37 pm

Oh right, if it goes against you, even if it's an ISRAELI human rights group it's spamming. Says just about everything Dodge.

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:42 pm

Well many posts have been made and all you have done is make countless lies up and immature insults

The fact you cannot even comprehend that you are stoking up hate to then even back violence through your belief its justified by a daft belief through violence through occupation, when this raid is not an attempt to occupy, just proves how far out of touch with reality you are.

How many more times, peace and calm is needed to be called for here or again this could get out of hand and thousands end up dead and injured.
I do not want to see any further bloodshed and neither should you but you fail to understand you are inciting further violence.

Seriously grow the fuck up and see the hate you are promoting

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:44 pm

The idiot's guide to whitewashing the occupation

With a naive tone, jovial denial of the existence of Palestinians and winsome depiction of settlers and life in the West Bank, Israel’s settlement lobby creates an illustrated guide to hasbaraland.
Israel creating conditions for another "Defensive Shield" - Page 2 159

Israel creating conditions for another "Defensive Shield" - Page 2 159

Birthright trip (Jewish Agency/CC BY ND 2.0)
“Occupation, shmoccupation!” declares a new booklet published by the Yesha Council, the lobbying and political arm of West Bank settlements.
Titled “Kibush kishkush” (which translates more literally as “occupation nonsense”), the pamphlet states its professed aim of addressing “misconceptions about settlements and the settler public in Judea and Samaria.”

The book is intended to tackle the “stigmas left-wing organizations are trying to disseminate,” Yesha Council spokesperson Yigal Dakmoni told Ynet.

The front cover features a paintbrush resting on a map of Greater Israel – i.e. the current territory of the State of Israel along with the occupied Palestinian territories – as an undivided landmass. (One wonders which side has been painted over.)

Inside, we meet our guide — a naive, curious young man who is our eyes and ears in this pamphlet. Through his guileless questions, we are led on colorful tour of some of hasbara’s main talking points.
Israel creating conditions for another "Defensive Shield" - Page 2 Yesha-labels

Israel creating conditions for another "Defensive Shield" - Page 2 Yesha-labels

“Wouldn’t you prefer if they called you ‘mityashvim’?’ (A less pejorative word for settlers.)
“I would prefer if they didn’t label us at all.”

We hear about how Judea, Samaria and Gaza were “liberated” by the Israeli army in 1967, before being cheerfully told that there is no such thing as a Palestinian people. Rather, the entire concept is an erroneous hangover from the Hellenistic period during which the Greeks called Israel “Palestina.”

In fact, we are told, the term “Palestinians” is just a nickname for Arabs who live in Judea and Samaria — which handily differentiates them from Arabs who live on the other side of the Green Line and who are actually Israeli citizens.
In perhaps its most (unwittingly) telling aside, the booklet does acknowledge that “some Israeli Arabs define themselves as Palestinians,” but quickly dismisses this as “another matter.”

It is indeed another matter, one of Palestinian national history and collective consciousness, which throws a wrench in the works of the field of dreams the booklet is attempting to portray. After all, the West Bank is Israel’s world — Palestinians just live in it.

In one pastoral scene, a Palestinian squats under an olive tree with a pair of shears while, bizarrely, refusing help from our guide in case he gets into trouble with “leftist organizations.” We have arrived at the elephant in the room: “price tag” attacks.
Israel creating conditions for another "Defensive Shield" - Page 2 Yesh-harvest

Israel creating conditions for another "Defensive Shield" - Page 2 Yesh-harvest

“Hi Jamil. Do you need any help with the olive harvest?”
“Don’t bother, why get in trouble with the leftist organizations?”
Presumably with an eye on the recent triple homicide in Duma and the intense scrutiny of “Jewish terrorism” brought about by the arson attack, the booklet blames Israeli left-wing organizations for provocation and lying regarding such crimes.

While grudgingly admitting that a handful of extremists are to be found in the West Bank, the booklet emphasizes that “price tag” attacks are not a daily occurrence as the Israeli public has been led to believe by those interfering leftist outfits.

Data released by the Palestinian Liberation Organization paints a very different picture, noting that 369 such attacks took place between January 1st and July 27th of this year. The U.S. State Department logged 399 settler crimes against Palestinians during 2013.

Yet the Yesha council is not deterred by trifles such as facts and figures. Rather, it goes on to suggest that in some cases “price tag” attacks are in fact the result of internal disputes between Palestinians.

Finally, the booklet trots through Israel’s well-worn PR coup de grâce - that “every attempt to give the Arabs land led us to terror attacks and violence.” The conclusion is that “new thinking” is required, which amounts to maintaining the status quo and not, heaven forbid, ending the occupation and addressing the Palestinian refugee issue.

Under the current arrangement, apparently, “the Arabs of Judea and Samaria manage their lives independently with elections and a civil administration.” (The army’s own Civil Administration, which is essentially the government ministry for the occupation, is not mentioned.)
What’s more, we’re assured, Israel is actually actively working to improve the lives of Palestinians in the West Bank.

The authors do not explain how night-time arrests, extra-judicial killings, demolitions, displacement, segregation, internal checkpoints and systematic abuse increase Palestinians’ quality of life.

But then there’s no need to explain: this is hasbaraland, possessed of its own internal logic (or lack thereof) and a boisterous disregard for things like context, empathy and international law.

Here there is no occupation, no apartheid and no competing claims for land. Indeed, how could there be when there isn’t even such a thing as Palestinians?

http://972mag.com/the-idiots-guide-to-whitewashing-the-occupation/111533/

Absolutely spot on, but you'll still get fools who will believe it.

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:45 pm

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:47 pm

Cuchulain wrote:

Israel creating conditions for another "Defensive Shield" - Page 2 Giving-the-finger-smiley-emoticon

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:48 pm

So how is a raid to arrest people an occupation?
You claim they were trying to destroy the town and take over.
That was a lie on both counts and the violence and devastation was caused by the Palestinian rioters. That is even evident from the video you posted.
So to claim violence for an arrest is utterly daft and like I say promoting a view that it is, clearly shows why many other idiots have bought this view to then commit violence as we have seen.

can you not even see that the crap you just posted is why idiots are rioting?

The same with idiot extremist Israeli;s rioting, they have people stoking up hate with them being gullible also.

Grow the fuck up and stop inciting violence as how many dead will it take for you to start to listen?

by Fuzzy Zack Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:49 pm

To underscore the “existential” danger that B.D.S. poses, Israel and its lobby groups often invoke the smear of anti-Semitism, despite the unequivocal, consistent position of the movement against all forms of racism, including anti-Semitism. This unfounded allegation is intended to intimidate into silence those who criticize Israel and to conflate such criticism with anti-Jewish racism.

Arguing that boycotting Israel is intrinsically anti-Semitic is not only false, but it also presumes that Israel and “the Jews” are one and the same. This is as absurd and bigoted as claiming that a boycott of a self-defined Islamic state like Saudi Arabia, say, because of its horrific human rights record, would of necessity be Islamophobic.

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 1:53 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:To underscore the “existential” danger that B.D.S. poses, Israel and its lobby groups often invoke the smear of anti-Semitism, despite the unequivocal, consistent position of the movement against all forms of racism, including anti-Semitism. This unfounded allegation is intended to intimidate into silence those who criticize Israel and to conflate such criticism with anti-Jewish racism.

Arguing that boycotting Israel is intrinsically anti-Semitic is not only false, but it also presumes that Israel and “the Jews” are one and the same. This is as absurd and bigoted as claiming that a boycott of a self-defined Islamic state like Saudi Arabia, say, because of its horrific human rights record, would of necessity be Islamophobic.

The BDS has been shown to be on many occasions very anti-semtic, it calls for a one state solution, which is denying Israelis self determination.
To deny self determination is racism plain and simple.
Unless you think Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia, etc should not exist as nations through self determination when they were formerly minorities of a larger nation?
So yes they are very much a hate group where even as i stated Norman Finkelstein has disowned them because of their hate.
Only in the Arab world have we seen the creation of many nations but only one where they refuse to accept its existance.

Now of course bloody religion plays a huge part in each side wrongly thinking they have right to the land.
Such arguments are wrong and idiotic.
Both have a right to self determination.

by Fuzzy Zack Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:15 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:To underscore the “existential” danger that B.D.S. poses, Israel and its lobby groups often invoke the smear of anti-Semitism, despite the unequivocal, consistent position of the movement against all forms of racism, including anti-Semitism. This unfounded allegation is intended to intimidate into silence those who criticize Israel and to conflate such criticism with anti-Jewish racism.

Arguing that boycotting Israel is intrinsically anti-Semitic is not only false, but it also presumes that Israel and “the Jews” are one and the same. This is as absurd and bigoted as claiming that a boycott of a self-defined Islamic state like Saudi Arabia, say, because of its horrific human rights record, would of necessity be Islamophobic.

The BDS has been shown to be on many occasions very anti-semtic, it calls for a one state solution, which is denying Israelis self determination.
To deny self determination is racism plain and simple.
Unless you think Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia, etc should not exist as nations through self determination when they were formerly minorities of a larger nation?
So yes they are very much a hate group where even as i stated Norman Finkelstein has disowned them because of their hate.
Only in the Arab world have we seen the creation of many nations but only one where they refuse to accept its existance.

Now of course bloody religion plays a huge part in each side wrongly thinking they have right to the land.
Such arguments are wrong and idiotic.
Both have a right to self determination.

The Only Recognizable Feature of Hope Is Action.
– Grace Paley, Jewish American author and activist

Jewish Voice for Peace endorses the call from Palestinian civil society for Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) as part of our work for freedom, justice and equality for all people. We believe that the time-honored, non-violent tools proposed by the BDS call provide powerful opportunities to make that vision real.

We join with communities of conscience around the world in supporting Palestinians, who call for BDS until the Israeli government:

Ends its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands occupied in June 1967 and dismantles the Wall; recognizes the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality; and respects, protects and promotes the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN Resolution 194.

In the long and varied history of Jewish experience, we are inspired by those who have resisted injustice and fought for freedom. We strive to live up to those values and extend that history. By endorsing the call, we make our hope real and our love visible and we claim our own liberation as bound with the liberation of all.

JVP is committed to supporting and organizing all kinds of powerful and strategic campaigns to secure a common future where Palestinians, Israeli Jews, and all the people of Israel/Palestine may live with dignity, security, and peace.

https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/boycott-divestment-and-sanctions/jvp-supports-the-bds-movement/

Are these Jews anti Semitic?

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:16 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

The BDS has been shown to be on many occasions very anti-semtic, it calls for a one state solution, which is denying Israelis self determination.
To deny self determination is racism plain and simple.
Unless you think Poland, Ukraine, Lithuania, Latvia, etc should not exist as nations through self determination when they were formerly minorities of a larger nation?
So yes they are very much a hate group where even as i stated Norman Finkelstein has disowned them because of their hate.
Only in the Arab world have we seen the creation of many nations but only one where they refuse to accept its existance.

Now of course bloody religion plays a huge part in each side wrongly thinking they have right to the land.
Such arguments are wrong and idiotic.
Both have a right to self determination.

The Only Recognizable Feature of Hope Is Action.
– Grace Paley, Jewish American author and activist

Jewish Voice for Peace endorses the call from Palestinian civil society for Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) as part of our work for freedom, justice and equality for all people. We believe that the time-honored, non-violent tools proposed by the BDS call provide powerful opportunities to make that vision real.

We join with communities of conscience around the world in supporting Palestinians, who call for BDS until the Israeli government:

Ends its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands occupied in June 1967 and dismantles the Wall; recognizes the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality; and respects, protects and promotes the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN Resolution 194.

In the long and varied history of Jewish experience, we are inspired by those who have resisted injustice and fought for freedom. We strive to live up to those values and extend that history. By endorsing the call, we make our hope real and our love visible and we claim our own liberation as bound with the liberation of all.

JVP is committed to supporting and organizing all kinds of powerful and strategic campaigns to secure a common future where Palestinians, Israeli Jews, and all the people of Israel/Palestine may live with dignity, security, and peace.

https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/boycott-divestment-and-sanctions/jvp-supports-the-bds-movement/

Are these Jews anti Semitic?

Yes self hating Jews, you never heard of them?

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:19 pm

Again they are either self hating or plainly stupid to not understand why they are backing a group that has no intention of a two state solution.
Like I said to deny self determination is denying countless nations that have formed since WW2 or even before. I use WW2 as it is only 3 years later for the formation of Israel.
Like I say people are seeing that many of the BDS actually target and attacks Jews in both the US and the UK. To thus claim they are not antisemtic when they attack Jews and not Israeli's shows how far this group is based on antisemitism.

by Fuzzy Zack Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:26 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
Fuzzy Zack wrote:

The Only Recognizable Feature of Hope Is Action.
– Grace Paley, Jewish American author and activist

Jewish Voice for Peace endorses the call from Palestinian civil society for Boycott, Divestment, and Sanctions (BDS) as part of our work for freedom, justice and equality for all people. We believe that the time-honored, non-violent tools proposed by the BDS call provide powerful opportunities to make that vision real.

We join with communities of conscience around the world in supporting Palestinians, who call for BDS until the Israeli government:

Ends its occupation and colonization of all Arab lands occupied in June 1967 and dismantles the Wall; recognizes the fundamental rights of the Arab-Palestinian citizens of Israel to full equality; and respects, protects and promotes the rights of Palestinian refugees to return to their homes and properties as stipulated in UN Resolution 194.

In the long and varied history of Jewish experience, we are inspired by those who have resisted injustice and fought for freedom. We strive to live up to those values and extend that history. By endorsing the call, we make our hope real and our love visible and we claim our own liberation as bound with the liberation of all.

JVP is committed to supporting and organizing all kinds of powerful and strategic campaigns to secure a common future where Palestinians, Israeli Jews, and all the people of Israel/Palestine may live with dignity, security, and peace.

https://jewishvoiceforpeace.org/boycott-divestment-and-sanctions/jvp-supports-the-bds-movement/

Are these Jews anti Semitic?

Yes self hating Jews, you never heard of them?

Lol! What a desperate reply to in an vain attempt to prove your point.

What a pathetic statement. What more proof does anyone need that you are just a Zionist mouthpiece, one of their "useful idiots".

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:28 pm

All that changed in February 2012. Finkelstein had become concerned with the international pro-Palestinian community’s embrace of BDS—it has become the preferred solution among activists on campuses and much of the Palestinian diaspora. He feels the position is inconsistent with international law’s recognition of Israel’s existence. In an interview with a French pro-Palestinian activist, Finkelstein declared his opposition to BDS—and did so in the same inflammatory language he had been using for decades to describe Israel and its supporters. “I loathe the disingenuousness—they don’t want Israel [to exist],” he said. “It’s a cult.” He had spent his time in a self-deceptive Maoist cult, he said; he wouldn’t do it again. He accused BDS activists of “inflating the numbers” of Palestinian refugees and “want[ing] to create terror in the hearts of every Israeli” rather than resolve the conflict. “I’m not going to tolerate what I think is silliness, childishness, and a lot of left-wing posturing,” he said.

The reaction among his supporters was disbelief and fury. He was called a “Zionist bully,” (lol sounds like Zack and Sassy does it not) an “angry right wing pundit,” someone “who opposes rights for all Palestinians,” and, in what was surely the biggest insult to him, a “comrade at heart with Alan Dershowitz.” Finkelstein’s primary source of income, his speaking fees, plummeted. He has since repeated his criticisms, and as a result has become nearly as unwelcome among supporters of Palestinians as he is among Israeli partisans.

Indeed, the response from Israel’s supporters to Finkelstein’s comments ranged from glee at the infighting among Palestinian advocates to puzzlement at what they see as Finkelstein’s newfound reasonableness. “I don’t understand—he consorts with Hamas, he’s hostile to Israel in every possible way, and yet he comes up short on this one,” says Daniel Pipes, president of the Middle East Forum, a conservative think tank.
BDS advocates say that the campaign for a two-state solution has brought nothing for Palestinians but a more entrenched Israeli occupation of their lands. They chalk up Finkelstein’s old-fashioned support for a two-state solution to his age or desire for attention. “There was a time when Norman Finkelstein was one of the loudest and one of the only voices on this issue,” says Rania Khalek, an editor at The Electronic Intifada. “He’s done incredibly valuable work, but with BDS growing, other people besides him are at the center who are most important.” “There are a number of people among an older generation of activists and advocates who were not quite prepared by the younger caste who have a strong message but differences in tactics,” says Yousef Munayyer, a leading Palestinian-American activist.

Indeed, Noam Chomsky has also come out against BDS in support of Israel’s existence. He calls the attacks on Finkelstein “completely uncalled for, indeed outrageous.” He says that Finkelstein “had cogent and rational arguments” and “has done more for the Palestine cause than all those who launched these disgraceful attacks combined.” Hussein Ibish, an Arab-American scholar who supports a two-state solution, says that “Finkelstein and Chomsky have enough experience and have their ear to the ground to see that the one-state effort is quixotic. BDS’s hysterical reaction to Finkelstein was inevitable, because it’s much closer to a religion than it is to a political idea.”

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/122257/unpopular-man-norman-finkelstein-comes-out-against-bds-movement

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:32 pm

You were saying Zack?

Seems The Palestinian's greatest backers have diowned the BDS?
Why because they do not bakc the right of Israel to exists, which means they are haters.

Sorry old chap, but you back a racist organisation, one that denies the existance of Israel.

lol what Zack posted:

What more proof does anyone need that you are just a Zionist mouthpiece

The reaction among his supporters was disbelief and fury. He was called a “Zionist bully,” (lol sounds like Zack and Sassy does it not)

You see smae bullshit and hate thrown at anyone that disagrees with them are labelled Zionists. You cannot make it up how text book Zack;s reply was, as if he got it straight out of the BDS bible/quran.

by Fuzzy Zack Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:35 pm

Yeah but on the bright side, I enjoy how this topic winds you up.

Don't deny you're wound up. I've seen the bold statements above. HA HA!

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:38 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:Yeah but on the bright side, I enjoy how this topic winds you up.

Don't deny you're wound up. I've seen the bold statements above. HA HA!

Wind up?

ha ha ha ha ha

You just got made to look a clown and a backer of a racist organisation that denies the existance of Israel.

Mate that makes me happy as it just further proves how backward and prejudiced your views are.

I also have shown how your continued poor use to call anyone that disagrees with you a Zionist is nothing more than the immaturity of an idiot. lol

Seriously keep trying to dig yourself out of the hole you just dug for yourself

Israel creating conditions for another "Defensive Shield" - Page 2 2686688521

Israel creating conditions for another "Defensive Shield" - Page 2 2686688521

by Fuzzy Zack Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:55 pm

Tell me again how you're not wound up,Didge.

HA HA!

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 2:56 pm

Fuzzy Zack wrote:Tell me again how you're not wound up,Didge.

HA HA!

Israel creating conditions for another "Defensive Shield" - Page 2 3223660991

Israel creating conditions for another "Defensive Shield" - Page 2 2022273579

by eddie Tue Oct 06, 2015 3:43 pm

Seeing as people have responded to the pictures and articles, this is now a debate and not one poster spamming a thread, but please post reliable links to any news stories or pictures.

Thank you

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:37 pm

sassy wrote:The situation in the Israeli Occupied Territories (Gaza, West Bank, Syrian Golan Heights and East Jerusalem) is deplorable. In Gaza, the attack one year ago left unbridled destruction and devastation. Despite Israeli promises to help with rebuilding, not one structure that was destroyed has been rebuilt. On the West Bank Illegal settlers are occupying and building on land that is not theirs with Israel's blessing. These same settlers, especially the young ones, many of them are terrorists and thugs. They are setting fires in the night to Palestinian homes, kidnapping, insulting and assaulting Palestinians. The Israeli military nightly enters Palestinian homes without warrants, without probable cause and ransacks them and many times, arrests one or more of the occupants without just cause. This protection force is absolutely vital and necessary for the survival of the Palestinian Arab population.

Petition for International Protection for the West Bank and Gaza just been started

https://www.causes.com/posts/963351

the gaza strip and the west bank already have a police force

its called the IDF

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 4:50 pm

Lets help the Dalek
There is no IDF in Gaza
Parts of the West Bank have IDF stationed around Settlements and roads leading into Israel.
Blimey two extremists, one left and the other far right, who both make the divison even worse between the Palestians and Israeli's.

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:18 pm

eddie wrote:Seeing as people have responded to the pictures and articles, this is now a debate and not one poster spamming a thread, but please post reliable links to any news stories or pictures.

Thank you

Not having a row with you Eddie, but

1. Spamming is repeating the same post over and over or posting stuff that is not about the thread, it is not giving information that refers to the thread title.

2. The link rule is to protect the forum from copywrite laws if you are posting from a publication, it does not refer to information given to you in a private capacity that you chose to share

In view of both, am referring this to Ben, because you have been manipulated.

by Raggamuffin Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:21 pm

All I was saying is - just discuss the issues rather than keep on posting new stuff, especially stuff which doesn't make sense or has no context to it.

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:22 pm

Raggamuffin wrote:All I was saying is - just discuss the issues rather than keep on posting new stuff, especially stuff which doesn't make sense or has no context to it.

It has context if you know anything about the situation.

by Raggamuffin Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:23 pm

sassy wrote:
Raggamuffin wrote:All I was saying is - just discuss the issues rather than keep on posting new stuff, especially stuff which doesn't make sense or has no context to it.

It has context if you know anything about the situation.

No it doesn't - not if you just post photos without explaining them.

by Raggamuffin Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:24 pm

Also, perhaps a lot of people don't know much about the situation. If you want them to know more, explain more.

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:29 pm

Settlers using IDF checkpoints to attack Palestinians

Settlers smash car in southern Jenin
Israel creating conditions for another "Defensive Shield" - Page 2 -638292774

Israel creating conditions for another "Defensive Shield" - Page 2 -638292774

JENIN, (PIC)-- Extremist Jewish settlers smashed a Palestinian car at an Israeli military checkpoint near Yabad town in southern Jenin.

Local sources revealed that settlers attacked a car belonging to a Palestinian man from Yabad called Majdi Herzallah while it was passing through a military barrier at the entrance of a Jewish settlement.

The sources pointed out that settlers followed and showered the car with stones. This made the driver hit the cement cubes at the barrier causing great damage to the car. He had to flee in order to survive, the sources added.

Settlers of the nearby settlement outpost have been stationed for days on the road, attacking Palestinian cars passing through the checkpoint.

http://english.palinfo.com/site/pages/details.aspx?itemid=73968

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 5:57 pm

good

very good, every palestinain house that is destroyed is a step closer to peace

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:15 pm

But then you're a sub human SOB that hasn't got the balls to keep his word aren't you? And an immigrant that complains about immigration as well, so who the hell would ever take you seriously LOL

by eddie Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:37 pm

sassy wrote:
eddie wrote:Seeing as people have responded to the pictures and articles, this is now a debate and not one poster spamming a thread, but please post reliable links to any news stories or pictures.

Thank you

Not having a row with you Eddie, but

1. Spamming is repeating the same post over and over or posting stuff that is not about the thread, it is not giving information that refers to the thread title.

2. The link rule is to protect the forum from copywrite laws if you are posting from a publication, it does not refer to information given to you in a private capacity that you chose to share

In view of both, am referring this to Ben, because you have been manipulated.

Fair enough sassy.

I wasn't aware the pics were sent in a private capacity, my bad for not reading every post.
Apologies to all.

And I did state that no spamming had occurred.

I'm more than happy for you to pass this to Ben. No worries.

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:38 pm

Israeli settlers attack iconic mosque in Jaffa

A number of extremist Israeli settlers in Jaffa attacked the Hassan Bek Mosque yesterday and attempted to burn it, eyewitnesses told Arab48.
Mohamed Ashqar, head of the Islamic Movement in Israel, said: “The settlers broke into the mosque from its main gate, threw big stones inside and smashed its windows.”

“The settlers planned to destroy and burn the mosque like what happened in the past when they burnt it, threw a pig’s head inside.”

Meanwhile, eyewitnesses said that they saw the settlers, who wanted to damage the mosque, but they undermined the settlers’ plan as they burst into it. “Therefore, the settlers fled,” the eyewitnesses told Arab48.

According to Ashqar, this assault is “completely related to the assaults on Al-Aqsa Mosque” and it is an “expansion” to the “continuous” assaults of the Israeli settlers all over the country and in the occupied West Bank and Jerusalem.

Ashqar noted that mosques in Jaffa have been under continuous Israeli aggression at the hands of Israeli settler “gangs” and they have been “given the green light from the official Israeli institutions”.

He added: “This aggression proves the racist and barbaric Israeli mentality, which is increasing among Jews. This is an aggression on the right to live and perform religious rituals.”

He reiterated that this aggression is a call for the Palestinians in Jaffa and in all Palestinian cities occupied in 1948 to be cautious regarding the protection of their mosques and holy sites from the plans of the Israeli settlers, which have recently increased.

https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/news/middle-east/21475-israeli-settlers-attack-iconic-mosque-in-jaffa

Of course this didn't result in IDF raiding Israeli homes and pulling down their houses, as that didn't happen when settler burnt the baby and his parents to death, which the IDF raiding the home afterwards.

by Guest Tue Oct 06, 2015 6:40 pm

eddie wrote:
sassy wrote:

Not having a row with you Eddie, but

1. Spamming is repeating the same post over and over or posting stuff that is not about the thread, it is not giving information that refers to the thread title.

2. The link rule is to protect the forum from copywrite laws if you are posting from a publication, it does not refer to information given to you in a private capacity that you chose to share

In view of both, am referring this to Ben, because you have been manipulated.

Fair enough sassy.

I wasn't aware the pics were sent in a private capacity, my bad for not reading every post.
Apologies to all.

And I did state that no spamming had occurred.

I'm more than happy for you to pass this to Ben. No worries.

No worries, I know you have a lot of reports from Dodge to deal with lol

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