It took me six months to get from Syria to the UK. Now I want to live with dignity

by Guest Fri Sep 18, 2015 12:26 pm

First topic message reminder :

I never imagined that I would go through a journey like this. I am from Damascus and before the war my family was happy.

At first I thought the uprising against Assad was a great thing, and my brother and I went on marches, but soon it became too dangerous. Now you never know what will happen in Damascus. Every other day there are bombardments, shelling and mortars. I have lost many friends.

In Syria, military service is compulsory, unless you are studying or are a family’s only son. As I was coming to the end of my degree, I knew that I would be forced to join the army. I didn’t want to do this because the army is killing its own people. There are no good sides in the war in Syria now. It is a religious civil war – I didn’t want to be a part of that.

Finally I told my parents I was going to leave the country. I wanted to go to the UK because I speak English and hoped to continue my studies. I had also heard that it is a country that treats refugees fairly. My brother who is younger than me left too: he is in Sweden now. My mother, father and sister encouraged us to go, but could not make the journey as well because my father is too old. I don’t think he will ever leave Damascus, however dangerous, because he loves it too much, but I hope that one day I can help my mother and sister to leave.

In March I took a bus to Lebanon, then a plane from Lebanon to Turkey. I stayed in Turkey for three months, but that was hopeless. I found a job but the boss wouldn’t pay me. Then I got another job in a jeans factory, where at least they gave me something, but only half the salary of my Turkish colleagues, and it wasn’t really enough to live on.
I took a train to Edirne, on the border with Greece, then walked for 12 hours. I got to the third town after the border but I had no euros and no one would change my dollars. The police caught me sleeping on the street and took me to a detention centre. The next day they put me in a van with other refugees and drove us into a wood, near the river that forms the border with Turkey. The men who let us out of the van were not wearing police uniforms. They all had their faces covered and were carrying sticks: it reminded me of Isis. We were terrified because we didn’t know what they were going to do. Eventually they pushed and shoved us into boats and took us across the river and handed us over to the Turkish police.

In the end I paid a smuggler $1,000 to take me to Greece by boat. There were 47 of us, including three women and two children. We had to get into a van and drive for three hours to reach the boat. There were no windows, only two holes in the ceiling. Whenever someone was having trouble breathing, we let them stand by the hole.

The boat was even worse. I don’t think there should have been more than 20 people in it. We were all very scared. I was sitting by the motor and there was water everywhere. The engine was puffing smoke in my face, making me throw up. After 10 minutes the smuggler abandoned the boat and told one of the refugees to drive us. Of course he didn’t know the way. He started following a light, but it turned out to be the light of another boat.

The other passengers were reading the Qur’an and praying we would be safe. I covered my face and tried not to think about it. I had no control over what was happening, so in my heart I gave myself to God and just hoped and prayed that nothing would happen.

It took me six months to get from Syria to the UK. Now I want to live with dignity - Page 2 3500

It took me six months to get from Syria to the UK. Now I want to live with dignity - Page 2 3500

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Syrian and Afghan refugees are helped ashore by locals after their dinghy deflated just off the coast of the Greek island of Lesbos. Photograph: Alkis Konstantinidis/Reuters
We were in the boat for five and a half hours before we saw an island. We ran out of gas before we reached it and had to call the Greek coastguard to beg for help. The coastguards threw us a rope to hold on to and towed us to land.
From there I took more boats, buses and trains to western Europe. A lot of the time you have to walk: people call it the “ant road” because of that. There were women with children and old people, which made me sad to see. It was difficult enough for me – how did they manage it?

When I reached the Serbian border I walked through the woods to avoid checkpoints. I followed a group of refugees who had a smuggler with them to find the way. In Belgrade I was robbed at gunpoint in a hostel, but I also met a man who let me stay at his house because he too had been a refugee once.

We had to avoid towns so we wouldn’t be caught by the police, and instead walked through farmland in Serbia and Hungary. I was with some other refugees when we met a smuggler who said he would take us to Austria by car, but instead he drove us to the border of Hungary and never came back. In Hungary the police caught us and put us on a train. When it stopped at a station they were taking everyone off, and in the rush I managed to escape and jump on another train that was going to Budapest. I was very lucky but I lost my bag. From there I got trains to France. When a ticket collector started asking for passports I hid in the toilets.

Finally I got to Calais. I only knew one person who had been to the “jungle” and I think she must have lied to me. She said it was a nice place, but it was hell. It was freezing and I had no tent, no sleeping bag or warm clothes. We were given one meal a day. If you want to stay in France you have to wait there for four months. I would never stay there after the way they treated us. It was the lowest point of my journey.

To get to the UK I attempted to jump on a train, but it was too hard. Seeing people coming back injured after trying was awful. So I went to the port. When the lorries slow down outside, people open the back and jump in: the drivers don’t know you are there. I had tried before, but they always stopped us at the French checkpoint and you have to go back to the jungle and try again. Finally I managed to jump into a lorry with car motors inside. There was very little room and it was very uncomfortable but the lorry had a soft top so I wasn’t worried about suffocating. There were three of us in there. We didn’t make any noise until we reached Dover.

Now I am in the UK I feel safe and happy. Compared to the other places I passed through and the way I was treated it is great. I am waiting to meet a lawyer and get my papers. I want to do a translation course so I can work. My only regret is that my family aren’t here with me. The bombing has got worse since I left and I am very scared for them.
I wish people understood that refugees are fleeing from a bad situation. We are not here to take your jobs, or to behave badly. We know we are guests and we are grateful for your help. We think it is very humane of Europe to take us.

Do I think the journey was worth the risk? At the time I didn’t know. I just wanted to get somewhere I could live with a bit of dignity.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/15/syria-uk-damascus-refugee-people-smugglers-calais-jungle

Think that speaks for itself. Very glad to say I have become part of a network that is spread all over the UK trying to help refugees and the support it has received is absolutely phenomenal. As Sandy Toksvig said on QT last night, Brits are much kinder than the Daily Mail would have you believe.

by Tommy Monk Sat Sep 19, 2015 6:53 pm

More waffle and false arguments...

How do you know which of these thousands upon thousands of illegal immigrants are actually ISIS fighters or not!?

They refuse to stop at borders or comply with checks or searches or to give their names or any identification etc... they refuse to have their photos taken or their fingerprints... as is required by them to give if they wish to enter a country and claim refugee status!!!

They all look well fed, well built etc, well clothed, well groomed...etc...

They are overwhelmingly men among a few women and children thrown in for appearances...

Even an idiot would have noticed many things that raises serious questions... and why they seem to think they can march across any border or country they like and not have to comply with the rules or laws of any other country!?

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:45 pm

Cuchulain wrote:

How do you refer back to a country that has many different factions in controls of different areas?
Anyway whilst the world is watching the refugees. If I was planning a strategy hypothetically, by wanting to infiltrate the UK. Or a naumber of possibilities which require the world's attention to be fixed on the refugee crisis which ISIS played a massive part in creaating remember. In this strategy ISIS fighters avoid being with the refugees, but promote a view, that thousands of ISIS fighters were mingled in with them. The majority of refugees in the EU are being processed in Germany etc. Where as if you traveled as a tourist or using false papers into the Uk, then you stand a better chance to go unnoticed. Their strategy would be to divert the threat of ISIS fighters coming from the regions where now large groups of refugees havet settled. I mean think about it victor, Germany has not exactly been a target of terrorism like France or the UK, so why would you follow the refugees if your targets were the UK and France for example? Again refugees coming to the uk from Syria are going to brought on uk ships I understand and those checks can be made on them whilst in voyage.

Everyone is expecting thousands of ISIS to be within the flow of refugees to Germany etc. This may possible allow the British security forces to be lulled into a false sense of security thinking that these fighters will be in mainly central Europe, as Britain has hardly accepted any Syrian refugees. No doubt after the hype, a high priority would be issued to check any refugees coming to the UK from the EU over fears they are ISIS. ISIS could infiltrate via the airports after jounrying from Qatar for example So in my opinion ISIS have pulled off another propaganda coup. They have generated a fear of the refugees to the point Europe would close their doors to them which is likely to happen within the next two months. They view any Muslim refugees from land surrounding the Islamic state fleeing as committing a massive sin. Where if Europe closes its doors many are then forced back to the middle east, which is where they want them. Then whilst the worlds attention is drawn to the refugee crisis, its very feasible that ISIS has formulated a plan to infiltrate fighters into the UK, France etc. As now many believe ISIS has infiltrated within the refugees. Intelligence sources will no doubt be utilized to gather intelligence from within Europe as a priority. Which would take away vital intelligence resources. ISIS will have no doubt send a 20 to 30 of their supporters with the refugees. Sp some can be deliberately captured to make their claims look legitimate and fuyrther intensify the fear around refugees travelling. While all the while ISIS will possible be trying to infiltrate straight into the UK, France etc or any number of possible reasons that requires the worlds eyes centred on the refugee problem in Europe..

So I think yet again ISIS are playing the worlds media to their own tune, making the refugees become the threat by themselves declaring they have smuggled thousands of fighters with refugees. What better way than to spread fear and panic within EU nations in regards to the refugees. Do not forget that one of the two main aims of terrorism is to influence political behaviour. Which is being achieved by the borders being closed and the refugees being seen as a threat. Nations are being led by fear promoted by ISIS to stop further refugees coming through their countries. Hungary has done this followed by Croatia soon. How many others will follow? They have completely manipulated nations to now fear refugees by a claim they started, which should have been properly questioned to it if it was a cover to distract from their real intent. Remember the aim of terrorism is to disrupt the lives of as many people as possible and now countries are playing to their tunes by closing their borders. What if there is an alternative strategy behind the claim and whether their claim to thousands of fighters being with the refugees was nothing more thana deliberate diversion to cover their real intent but also create mass panic and fear at the same time? Of which I am sure a few posters on here will freely admit they have fallen prey to the threats of ISIS in regards to their claim on their fighters being with the refugees. How these same people are also backing the closure of borders. Where this same posters are viewing the refugees as a threata and suspicion.

At the end of the day its all hypothetical, but as seen from my points if this was their strategy, it has clearly worked by spreading fear and having Political influence. So maybe those who believe 4,000 fighters have infitrated, may want to think and ponder analternative possible ISIS stratetgy. Then ask themselves if its possible that ISIS have possibly manipulated them into believing a false claim about thousands of ISIS fighters travelling with the refugees? It makes me further ponder why in the video Gelico posted that a young make would do the slit your throat sign? Why would you easily allow yourself to be indentified on camera if you are menat to be hiding your identity in order to later carry out an attack? Did Gelico or anyone else think to question that point? Why would an ISIS supporter give their identity away unless they were ordered to? It only makes sense to validate ISIS fighters within the refugees? In other words to fool the EU into believeing 4,000 have infiltrated Not only that, why would ISIS even inform the world it was sending 4000 fighters to infiltrate? Which based on their numbers. loss of territories, ISIS fighters killed and fighting on multiple fronts, they need as many fighters as they can get? 4,000 is yoo big a force to lose tactically. Hence even the figure should have been question as it makes very little sense. It really only make sense for them to tell of their plan to infiltrate, if their main intention was to instill fear and panic within the EU.
Well quell surpirse, guess what, if this was their plan and intention, it certainly has then worked.

Do you know what this reminds me of?
When the allies were fooled by Goebbels.s propganda in regards to Alpine Fortress . Now there was plans to move back huge forces into this area, but by the end hardly any units had formed there. Goebbles had even set up a special unit to spread rumours about the Alpine fortress. He collaborated with the SS and SD to produce fake blueprints on construction, supllies and units. Its even a possibility that this helped sway the decision for the allies not to take Berlin. Goebbles plan was a complete success as the allies believed such forces had convered to the Alphine Fortress and that it was going to be heavily fortified.
So Eisenhower diverted forces to the area to cut off retreateing German units trying to gain entry into the Fortress. Which when the allies did penetrate Bavaria and Western Austria, they met very little ressistance. So the claims made by the German propaganda machine on the strengh of the Fortress had been nothing more than myths and had completely fooled the allies.

So have you thought of this possibility Victor?

Also

So I will leave one major point in regards to the claim of ISIS stating 4,000 a near impossible figure as already stated. When was this claim originally stated?

Now not the original claim made in regards to 4,000 fighters infiltrated, but when the claim was first made this year was first made in January.

http://www.buzzfeed.com/mikegiglio/isis-operative-this-is-how-we-send-jihadis-to-europe#.swdJ9Q3wVe

So even before we go back to this original claim that comes from near enough the same sources, here we have the same claim regurgitated from January. Now 9 months with clear 4,000 have meant to have infiltrated, for one where are they? Why have they been so idol? Or do they simple not exist being as ISIS tries to draw people to their Caliphate and not away from this? They have not the numbers to send such quantities of fighters as it would seriously cripple their offensive capabilities.
Its worked so well this fear nations have been convinced to view refugees as a threat, the very people fleeing from the real threat they actually lived under. Now are they infiltrating very small groups of fighters? No doubt more like in numbers of 2's or 4's, but they have not the resources to send many.

I think people really need to rethink how they have reacted to a threat that was first used this year in January

Hence why the more you look into this the more I am convinced that ISIS have pulled off a propaganda coup with doing very little. The far right are convinced 4,000 ISIS fighters have infiltrated in, even though they should have been since January and thus must be in perpetual hibernation.

Right have to go so again night

In case anyone has missed and wants to counter as so far nobody has been able make a stronger case for the opposing view. The view that plays right into the hands of ISIS
My points still stand based on sound reasoning to ISIS weakened strengths. Lost of territory which has them in the main on the defensive, though have offensive capabilities in some parts. ISIS have lost many dead and can ill afford to let 4,000 trained fighters leave the conflict as it would place their military position at a weaker disadvantage. The same exact claim on numbers was made in Jan this year stating 4,000 had been smuggled in the EU by Jan. As seen either they have deserted or the claim is false to stir up fear and panic, of which it has. Its makes more logical sense to give the impression thousands have infiltrated the EU, than the need to send any, when you have served your purpose to sow discord and have hit the jackpot by EU nations closing their borders. ISIS do not want people to flee to the EU and constitute as a sin. By sowing the seed of fear on refugees and claiming infiltration with them, countries are now closing their borders and none of this required the need to send any. Many nations themselves reacted through their own fear So when you weigh up this and many other points I made it seems more probable and practical to send a couple of teams, as clearly countless people here in the UK and the EU are easily bought by claims ISIS make. Clearly unless people start to wise up ISIS, they are going to continue to win the propaganda war. Not only that the last thing we should do is react to the fear they have deliberately spread. Again people need to understand the aims of terrorism and not bow down to them by being controlled by your fears, their whole intent.

by Tommy Monk Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:49 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:More waffle and false arguments...

How do you know which of these thousands upon thousands of illegal immigrants are actually ISIS fighters or not!?

They refuse to stop at borders or comply with checks or searches or to give their names or any identification etc... they refuse to have their photos taken or their fingerprints... as is required by them to give if they wish to enter a country and claim refugee status!!!

They all look well fed, well built etc, well clothed, well groomed...etc...

They are overwhelmingly men among a few women and children thrown in for appearances...

Even an idiot would have noticed many things that raises serious questions... and why they seem to think they can march across any border or country they like and not have to comply with the rules or laws of any other country!?

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 7:51 pm

Still no rebuttal to a single point I made
Someone has not bothered to read any of the posts hence why they struggle
Oh well be interested as to what Victor thinks

by Tommy Monk Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:08 pm

Dodge... what exactly are you trying to say...!!!???

Are you saying ISIS fighters are flooding across into EU or are you saying they are not!!!???

And can you tell us how YOU know for sure either way!!!???

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:14 pm

|Here's another good one for you guys....

when these "refugees" arrive here...with totally unsubstantiated identities, ALL claiming to be doctors and engineers etc....dont forget that also, no doubt, they will ALL be able to drive....and hence will be handed a UK licence without any further checks will they even bother to check properly if they "claim " HGV privlidges

oh yes sir ...I'm a HGV driver by profession.....wheres your licence ...sorry sir I lost it whilst being a refugee....

oh ok heres one of ours...off you go...... Rolling Eyes

by captain Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:19 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Dodge... what exactly are you trying to say...!!!???

Are you saying ISIS fighters are flooding across into EU or are you saying they are not!!!???

And can you tell us how YOU know for sure either way!!!???

The world should approach Israel, after all they help set this new terrorist up and then we can thank the british and americans that are or have been training them.

Today it was a revelation to see the syrain plight all over the bbc, I thought I was dreaming.

So what do you guys think about John Kerry's speah today?

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:21 pm

victorismyhero wrote:|Here's another good one for you guys....

when these "refugees" arrive here...with totally unsubstantiated identities, ALL claiming to be doctors and engineers etc....dont forget that also, no doubt, they will ALL be able to drive....and hence will be handed a UK licence without any further checks will they even bother to check properly if they "claim " HGV privlidges

oh yes sir ...I'm a HGV driver by profession.....wheres your licence ...sorry sir I lost it whilst being a refugee....

oh ok heres one of ours...off you go......

How on earth do you know what professions they have.
Again you make an unfounded accusation.
Also again Asylum seekers whilst their application is being processed are not allowed to work in the UK.
Frankly I care little what professions they have, as their imminent needs far outweigh your need to know what professional skills they might or might not have.
Sadly as seen the ISIS propaganda machines has had many willing takers who have fallen for rhetoric to spread fear and this fear is clearly more contagious than any virus. There is a cure thankfully, its called standing up to the threat of terror and not bowing down to fear, otherwise they will have won the mind games which is a crucial aim for terrorism.

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:40 pm

I think you know what I think didge.....

whether isis is up to anything or not THAT is one factor amongst many....albeit an important one that you supporters of this stupidity utterly fail to address, along with failing to address the consequences of your being wrong.

my last post above is another point....to which I will add....so you counter with well we will test them....of course this will mean both additional costs..AND delaying the tests of 1000's of our own, mostly young people....(of course I realise that THEY dont count, Our own are NEVER a priority to the LLA Rolling Eyes

But never mind...its done anyway...even Camergoon feels the need for a bit of lefty "feel good".

However just remember...every times something like this happens....many many people like me get shoved by "you"
just that bit further right......

Just remember that patience is wearing thin...if your new found friends DO harbour any Isis...and they "get one thorough" then "you" could well be responsible for Enoch's nightmare happening.

It wont be the fault of those that "react and "explode" it will be the fault of the LLA for providing both powder and match...indeed for throwing the match into the powder.....

As a final thought...how many nigerians are you inviting next???? I mean I read a couple of days back the 500,000 children were displaced.....of course the idiot press, so fimly in the grasp of the lefties carefully avoided mentioning how many adults were accompanying them........

so when can we expect THEM HUH?

by Tommy Monk Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:44 pm

Victor, I touched on this point yesterday... the lefties are trying to tell us how highly qualified and highly skilled they are although the lefties have no idea who any of them are... as they have no ID'S or proof of qualifications etc!!!

They are moving across countries and borders in mobs by force, refusing to be stopped/checked/searched etc, refusing to register themselves with countries authorities, refusing to give their names or have their photos/fingerprints taken etc... they are being openly hostile to any attempts to try to enforce these totally normal procedures that everyone else would face!!!

Why are some supportive of this behaviour when it goes completely against the rule of law and beyond the realms of common sense!?

How many of them are carrying any amount of guns/weapons/explosives in their bags/rucksacks etc...???

How do you know if they refuse to be stopped and checked etc!!!???

And why should any country let anyone come over their national borders without proper ID and security checks etc...!!!???

Have some people completely lost touch with reality over this!!!???

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:47 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
victorismyhero wrote:|Here's another good one for you guys....

when these "refugees" arrive here...with totally unsubstantiated identities, ALL claiming to be doctors and engineers etc....dont forget that also, no doubt, they will ALL be able to drive....and hence will be handed a UK licence without any further checks will they even bother to check properly if they "claim " HGV privlidges

oh yes sir ...I'm a HGV driver by profession.....wheres your licence ...sorry sir I lost it whilst being a refugee....

oh ok heres one of ours...off you go......

How on earth do you know what professions they have.

I dont...and neither do you...NOR was that the point I was making....stay on point....
IT IS THE PRESS/PROPAGANDA machine, primed and abetted by Germany that is giving the impression ALL these refugees are "professionals" pfffft.

Again you make an unfounded accusation.
Also again Asylum seekers whilst their application is being processed are not allowed to work in the UK.

Irelevant...once they are accepted......and proving skills aint part of that....they can work....

and...if they aint working...whos benefits are they swallowing up???? which disabled person are you going to condemn to death for them... (going back to discussions about how seriously disabled people are being killed off by our nice "austerity pogrom (thats NOT a typo))

Frankly I care little what professions they have, as their imminent needs far outweigh your need to know what professional skills they might or might not have.

Well I do whan some one could just "claim" to be this or that...."cos I have lost me papers sir , honest sir" and then have some liberalist idiot stand up for them and say they "deserve a chance"

Sadly as seen the ISIS propaganda machines has had many willing takers who have fallen for rhetoric to spread fear and this fear is clearly more contagious than any virus. There is a cure thankfully, its called standing up to the threat of terror and not bowing down to fear, otherwise they will have won the mind games which is a crucial aim for terrorism.

Irrelevant to this post

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 8:58 pm

victorismyhero wrote:I think you know what I think didge.....

whether isis is up to anything or not THAT is one factor amongst many....albeit an important one that you supporters of this stupidity utterly fail to address, along with failing to address the consequences of your being wrong.
Incorrect as seen it would be very unlikely based on the numbers and where it has been claimed before, where the claim ended up so far being very much unfounded. Id that you are part of the problem and not the solution. Part of the solution is to stand up to fear promoted by ISIS, yet you and others buckle under to anything they claim. Its not rocket science to deduce what is feasible for ISIS based on their limit manpower. Not only that aims were achieved here by fear alone and you and others helped make that happen by succumbing to fear

my last post above is another point....to which I will add....so you counter with well we will test them....of course this will mean both additional costs..AND delaying the tests of 1000's of our own, mostly young people....(of course I realise that THEY dont count, Our own are NEVER a priority to the LLA
How do you place a cost on human life, when their lives are of imminent and pressing needs.?
You cannot but sadly make a poor argument over when 20,000 do come of what their benefit will be. Well their benefit will be that in the vast amount of cases they are able bodied. Others will have skills. All that you need to fill a variety of job roles

But never mind...its done anyway...even Camergoon feels the need for a bit of lefty "feel good".

However just remember...every times something like this happens....many many people like me get shoved by "you"
just that bit further right......
Shoved? Its called common sense based on ethical and moral reasoning to help people in need. Not only that, you are only a part of this country, you do not own it either. Its more appalling people do not help when we have the ability to adapt our infrastructure. Do not blame others for where your own views have been swayed by yourself allowing yourself to be clouded by anger. Nobody made that happen but yourself

Just remember that patience is wearing thin...if your new found friends DO harbour any Isis...and they "get one thorough" then "you" could well be responsible for Enoch's nightmare happening.
I have already stated that no doubt they have infiltrated some two man and four man teams. Again we need to weigh up the balance here, which is the far pressing need is that of the refugees over your own peace of mind. Which to be honest again you have allowed yourself to be easily led by ISIS by the use of their fear based propaganda. Its no good trying to blame others. Not only that we know that UK resident ISIS members have returned just like any ISIS member can return easily if they have their documentation to their nation within the EU. This is the point ISIS can easily move people into EU nations based off their residency and why some returning ISIS members have gone unnoticed on their return. So again to make a view to blame refugees for if some ISIS fighters get through to the UK is absurd, when you ignore the fact they can easily gain access far more than falsely claiming to be a refugee

It wont be the fault of those that "react and "explode" it will be the fault of the LLA for providing both powder and match...indeed for throwing the match into the powder.....
See above as you clearly fail to direct blame at where it should be blamed, the border control measure

As a final thought...how many nigerians are you inviting next???? I mean I read a couple of days back the 500,000 children were displaced.....of course the idiot press, so fimly in the grasp of the lefties carefully avoided mentioning how many adults were accompanying them........
This question has always made me laugh, as its a moot point also, Its opening up our country to help people which then does not require people to open up their homes but some do open up their homes.
Its the idiot press that has helped shape and spread fear based off ISIS claims

so when can we expect THEM HUH?

20,000 over 4 years

by Tommy Monk Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:02 pm

Victor, I touched on this point yesterday... the lefties are trying to tell us how highly qualified and highly skilled they are although the lefties have no idea who any of them are... as they have no ID'S or proof of qualifications etc!!!

They are moving across countries and borders in mobs by force, refusing to be stopped/checked/searched etc, refusing to register themselves with countries authorities, refusing to give their names or have their photos/fingerprints taken etc... they are being openly hostile to any attempts to try to enforce these totally normal procedures that everyone else would face!!!

Why are some supportive of this behaviour when it goes completely against the rule of law and beyond the realms of common sense!?

How many of them are carrying any amount of guns/weapons/explosives in their bags/rucksacks etc...???

How do you know if they refuse to be stopped and checked etc!!!???

And why should any country let anyone come over their national borders without proper ID and security checks etc...!!!???

Have some people completely lost touch with reality over this!!!???

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:07 pm

victorismyhero wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

How on earth do you know what professions they have.

I dont...and neither do you...NOR was that the point I was making....stay on point....
IT IS THE PRESS/PROPAGANDA machine, primed and abetted by Germany that is giving the impression ALL these refugees are "professionals" pfffft.

Again you make an unfounded accusation.
Also again Asylum seekers whilst their application is being processed are not allowed to work in the UK.

Irelevant...once they are accepted......and proving skills aint part of that....they can work....

and...if they aint working...whos benefits are they swallowing up???? which disabled person are you going to condemn to death for them... (going back to discussions about how seriously disabled people are being killed off by our nice "austerity pogrom (thats NOT a typo))

Frankly I care little what professions they have, as their imminent needs far outweigh your need to know what professional skills they might or might not have.

Well I do whan some one could just "claim" to be this or that...."cos I have lost me papers sir , honest sir" and then have some liberalist idiot stand up for them and say they "deserve a chance"

Sadly as seen the ISIS propaganda machines has had many willing takers who have fallen for rhetoric to spread fear and this fear is clearly more contagious than any virus. There is a cure thankfully, its called standing up to the threat of terror and not bowing down to fear, otherwise they will have won the mind games which is a crucial aim for terrorism.

Irrelevant to this post

Yes we saw the press propaganda machine in full swing today, inventing incorrect and misleading information on the amount of Syrians that have fled. To then claim people are being lied to which of course is blatantly on true, but its had its desired effect, to sway more people against refugees. The Mail even classed those who had drowned whilst fleeing persecution as Migrants, showing how prejudice that paper truly is. So yes the Likes of the Mail and Express have helped further the cause of ISIS by pandering to their claims and fear. Both are also doing their best to further help ISIS scare many EU nations to close their borders to refugees. Which is what they want of course they want people to remain within or near to their sphere of influence. Both these papers might as well be given royalties by ISIS for their stories that aid ISIS.

Its not irrelevant because you say so and you know its very relevant, where a view claimed which lacks validity when you break down the chances of such a claim being possible. Then add to this willing believers, helps fuel and spread the fear within the EU. So those bowing down to fear formed by ISIS, who in reality had the desired result from just claiming something. Of which as they know they have now a sizable amount of people who are inadvertently assisting them by falling prey to this fear. Means they will make further plays on those who are weak. Those easily led by fear. Again its about standing up to them, not bowing down as people have through fear. Which those who have, then help them achieve their aims.

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:13 pm

so didge is saying "lets unconditionally invite anyone who feels the need to come here"

and if it goes pear shaped, blame the border control

who are constrained in their work by ...guess who.....the very people didge supports ...the govt.....

ermmmmmm?????? scuse me

isnt that whats known as "plausible deniability"

or over here as "double speak"

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:14 pm

Cuchulain wrote:

Yes we saw the press propaganda machine in full swing today, inventing incorrect and misleading information on the amount of Syrians that have fled. To then claim people are being lied to which of course is blatantly on true, but its had its desired effect, to sway more people against refugees. The Mail even classed those who had drowned whilst fleeing persecution as Migrants, showing how prejudice that paper truly is. So yes the Likes of the Mail and Express have helped further the cause of ISIS by pandering to their claims and fear. Both are also doing their best to further help ISIS scare many EU nations to close their borders to refugees. Which is what they want of course they want people to remain within or near to their sphere of influence. Both these papers might as well be given royalties by ISIS for their stories that aid ISIS.

Its not irrelevant because you say so and you know its very relevant, where a view claimed which lacks validity when you break down the chances of such a claim being possible. Then add to this willing believers, helps fuel and spread the fear within the EU. So those bowing down to fear formed by ISIS, who in reality had the desired result from just claiming something. Of which as they know they have now a sizable amount of people who are inadvertently assisting them by falling prey to this fear. Means they will make further plays on those who are weak. Those easily led by fear. Again its about standing up to them, not bowing down as people have through fear. Which those who have, then help them achieve their aims.

which quite nicely avoids answering my points....

A true "politicians answer"

hey Mr politician...what about the affect of austerity on disable people?

Well mr Interviewer....see we have to save some money to help the rare spotted dick muncher in its fight dfor survival, caused by logging in the outer mongolian areas....We are going to help by banning timber from there ....and this will also help te outer mongolian back paddling yak duck, so we really ARE making a big difference...."

interviewer "?????????????????????????????????????????????????????"

by Tommy Monk Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:26 pm

Back to the old 'fear' waffle again dodge...!!!???

lol!

Your arguments are becoming so ridiculous that I'm surprised you actually believe them yourself!!!

What a complete twat!!!

by eddie Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:30 pm

Vic

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:35 pm

victorismyhero wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

Yes we saw the press propaganda machine in full swing today, inventing incorrect and misleading information on the amount of Syrians that have fled. To then claim people are being lied to which of course is blatantly on true, but its had its desired effect, to sway more people against refugees. The Mail even classed those who had drowned whilst fleeing persecution as Migrants, showing how prejudice that paper truly is. So yes the Likes of the Mail and Express have helped further the cause of ISIS by pandering to their claims and fear. Both are also doing their best to further help ISIS scare many EU nations to close their borders to refugees. Which is what they want of course they want people to remain within or near to their sphere of influence. Both these papers might as well be given royalties by ISIS for their stories that aid ISIS.

Its not irrelevant because you say so and you know its very relevant, where a view claimed which lacks validity when you break down the chances of such a claim being possible. Then add to this willing believers, helps fuel and spread the fear within the EU. So those bowing down to fear formed by ISIS, who in reality had the desired result from just claiming something. Of which as they know they have now a sizable amount of people who are inadvertently assisting them by falling prey to this fear. Means they will make further plays on those who are weak. Those easily led by fear. Again its about standing up to them, not bowing down as people have through fear. Which those who have, then help them achieve their aims.

which quite nicely avoids answering my points....

A true "politicians answer"

hey Mr politician...what about the affect of austerity on disable people?

Well mr Interviewer....see we have to save some money to help the rare spotted dick muncher in its fight dfor survival, caused by logging in the outer mongolian areas....We are going to help by banning timber from there ....and this will also help te outer mongolian back paddling yak duck, so we really ARE making a big difference...."

interviewer "?????????????????????????????????????????????????????"

Yes, and the people who are fighting to help disabled people, and the ex-service men without a home, and the poor and the vunerable, and the old who are now being told to sell their houses (amazing how the RW came out and objected to that although they have been telling the old hit by bedroom tax to move, all of a sudden when it's old people who own they homes, it's 'you can't make them move out of homes they have lived in for 50 years') and all the other dreadful things that austerity has landed us with to keep the rich, rich, are the same people who are fighting to help the refugees, BECAUSE WE FUCKING CARE ABOUT EVERYBODY AND ARE FIGHTING FOR EVERYBODY, BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL HUMAN BEINGING WHO DESERVE A DECENT LIFE.

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:35 pm

victorismyhero wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

Yes we saw the press propaganda machine in full swing today, inventing incorrect and misleading information on the amount of Syrians that have fled. To then claim people are being lied to which of course is blatantly on true, but its had its desired effect, to sway more people against refugees. The Mail even classed those who had drowned whilst fleeing persecution as Migrants, showing how prejudice that paper truly is. So yes the Likes of the Mail and Express have helped further the cause of ISIS by pandering to their claims and fear. Both are also doing their best to further help ISIS scare many EU nations to close their borders to refugees. Which is what they want of course they want people to remain within or near to their sphere of influence. Both these papers might as well be given royalties by ISIS for their stories that aid ISIS.

Its not irrelevant because you say so and you know its very relevant, where a view claimed which lacks validity when you break down the chances of such a claim being possible. Then add to this willing believers, helps fuel and spread the fear within the EU. So those bowing down to fear formed by ISIS, who in reality had the desired result from just claiming something. Of which as they know they have now a sizable amount of people who are inadvertently assisting them by falling prey to this fear. Means they will make further plays on those who are weak. Those easily led by fear. Again its about standing up to them, not bowing down as people have through fear. Which those who have, then help them achieve their aims.

which quite nicely avoids answering my points....
That is rich coming from you, what I did was easily rubbish them as they were not only poor but absurd, not only that you have avoided the fast majority of my points over the last view days, which I shall have to take the view you have conceded on/ So no problem.

A true "politicians answer"
Withdrawing to your last hope eh, humour, where your views have basically nearly completely sunk

hey Mr politician...what about the affect of austerity on disable people?
That has nothing to do with Refugees but the present Government, which you need to again create an organisation to tackle this. No point yet again whinging about this and then wrongly try to use something so separate tot he points at hand

Well mr Interviewer....see we have to save some money to help the rare spotted dick muncher in its fight dfor survival, caused by logging in the outer mongolian areas....We are going to help by banning timber from there ....and this will also help te outer mongolian back paddling yak duck, so we really ARE making a big difference...."
Irrelevant and a separate issue

interviewer "?????????????????????????????????????????????????????"

Separate unrelated issues, which you need to campaign and get on board more people to challenge the present Government. To use the plight of refugees is really clutching straws on your part, but like I said when you use your last line of defense humour, I know you have conceeded many of the points I have made

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:43 pm

victorismyhero wrote:so didge is saying "lets unconditionally invite anyone who feels the need to come here"

and if it goes pear shaped, blame the border control

who are constrained in their work by ...guess who.....the very people didge supports ...the govt.....

ermmmmmm?????? scuse me

isnt that whats known as "plausible deniability"

or over here as "double speak"

You are just regurgitating the same things I easily addressed last night.
Nobody again has said to let anyone in without checks. This just further proves how desperate your views and counters have become where again I have gone over this many times. Its easier and far easier for ISIS fighters from EU nations to return and with lees chance of being spotted than to try and gain entry through asylum. Has this point sunk in yet, or do I need to yet again pull up all my previous answers?
Unless you close the UK to anyone coming in, which would cripple our economy, then we have to find better means to help prevent or stop ISIS fighters entering this country. Which as seen they have been entering based on their residency. So again your fears on the matter are completely exaggerated , where its far easier to infiltrate fighters who are already residents, than it is to do so coming as a refugee.
Seriously you are placing a greater threat on ISIS gaining entry as false refugees to what is actually harder to gain entry through the asylum process. Its far easier for some of them to gain access to the EU or pother Middle East nations and then fly from their back into the UK and as residents with documentation have a greater chance of slipping through. As already proved by our intelligence services that know some of their fighters have returned.

DOH
Look if you want to shit your pants and basically concede defeat to ISIS that is your choice

by Tommy Monk Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:44 pm

One minute the lefties tell us how all these 'migrants' are highly skilled etc... then they tell us it doesn't matter... so why did they bring it up in the first place as an argument...!?

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:53 pm

sassy wrote:
victorismyhero wrote:

which quite nicely avoids answering my points....

A true "politicians answer"

hey Mr politician...what about the affect of austerity on disable people?

Well mr Interviewer....see we have to save some money to help the rare spotted dick muncher in its fight dfor survival, caused by logging in the outer mongolian areas....We are going to help by banning timber from there ....and this will also help te outer mongolian back paddling yak duck, so we really ARE making a big difference...."

interviewer "?????????????????????????????????????????????????????"

Yes, and the people who are fighting to help disabled people, and the ex-service men without a home, and the poor and the vunerable, and the old who are now being told to sell their houses (amazing how the RW came out and objected to that although they have been telling the old hit by bedroom tax to move, all of a sudden when it's old people who own they homes, it's 'you can't make them move out of homes they have lived in for 50 years') and all the other dreadful things that austerity has landed us with to keep the rich, rich, are the same people who are fighting to help the refugees, BECAUSE WE FUCKING CARE ABOUT EVERYBODY AND ARE FIGHTING FOR EVERYBODY, BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL HUMAN BEINGING WHO DESERVE A DECENT LIFE.

Yes yes sassy, and whilst you and your Mr corbyn whistle into the wind...about this, meanwhile plotting the ultimate destruction of the uk (I mean Mr corbyn intends to remove our armed forces doenst he...along with trident...and follow a path of economic suicide...SOME few of us are out there ...helping ( in ways that actually acheive something other than just disturbing a few electrons in a microphone) our own needy.....

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:55 pm

Cuchulain wrote:
victorismyhero wrote:

which quite nicely avoids answering my points....
That is rich coming from you, what I did was easily rubbish them as they were not only poor but absurd, (but only in YOUR opinion) not only that you have avoided the fast majority of my points over the last view days, which I shall have to take the view you have conceded on/ So no problem.

A true "politicians answer"
Withdrawing to your last hope eh, humour, where your views have basically nearly completely sunk

hey Mr politician...what about the affect of austerity on disable people?
That has nothing to do with Refugees but the present Government, which you need to again create an organisation to tackle this. No point yet again whinging about this and then wrongly try to use something so separate tot he points at hand

Well mr Interviewer....see we have to save some money to help the rare spotted dick muncher in its fight dfor survival, caused by logging in the outer mongolian areas....We are going to help by banning timber from there ....and this will also help te outer mongolian back paddling yak duck, so we really ARE making a big difference...."
Irrelevant and a separate issue

interviewer "?????????????????????????????????????????????????????"

Separate unrelated issues, which you need to campaign and get on board more people to challenge the present Government. To use the plight of refugees is really clutching straws on your part, but like I said when you use your last line of defense humour, I know you have conceeded many of the points I have made

clearly "sardonic humour" is one step to far for you mate.....

oh and I havnt avoided anything.....

I have already laid out my conditions for acceptance of this as anything other than undesirable

and I have already stated that i recognise its inevitable

that does NOT mean I have to approve of it.....

NOR does it mean I have to be anything but "coldly neutral"

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:58 pm

victorismyhero wrote:
sassy wrote:

Yes, and the people who are fighting to help disabled people, and the ex-service men without a home, and the poor and the vunerable, and the old who are now being told to sell their houses (amazing how the RW came out and objected to that although they have been telling the old hit by bedroom tax to move, all of a sudden when it's old people who own they homes, it's 'you can't make them move out of homes they have lived in for 50 years') and all the other dreadful things that austerity has landed us with to keep the rich, rich, are the same people who are fighting to help the refugees, BECAUSE WE FUCKING CARE ABOUT EVERYBODY AND ARE FIGHTING FOR EVERYBODY, BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL HUMAN BEINGING WHO DESERVE A DECENT LIFE.

Yes yes sassy, and whilst you and your Mr corbyn whistle into the wind...about this, meanwhile plotting the ultimate destruction of the uk (I mean Mr corbyn intends to remove our armed forces doenst he...along with trident...and follow a path of economic suicide...SOME few of us are out there ...helping ( in ways that actually acheive something other than just disturbing a few electrons in a microphone) our own needy.....

No he doesn't, he is against Trident, as am I, but is FOR keeping up our obligations to NATO, which includes the Armed Forces. If you are going to go on about something, at least get your facts straight. And he has top economists, including Paul Krugman, a Nobel Prize winning economist, who said his plan is the only one that will get us out of this mess and the continuation of austerity will continue being a failure.

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 9:58 pm

victorismyhero wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

Separate unrelated issues, which you need to campaign and get on board more people to challenge the present Government. To use the plight of refugees is really clutching straws on your part, but like I said when you use your last line of defense humour, I know you have conceeded many of the points I have made

clearly "sardonic humour" is one step to far for you mate.....

You are sinker faster, best start cranking those pumps faster mate.

Laughing

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:03 pm

sassy wrote:
victorismyhero wrote:

Yes yes sassy, and whilst you and your Mr corbyn whistle into the wind...about this, meanwhile plotting the ultimate destruction of the uk (I mean Mr corbyn intends to remove our armed forces doenst he...along with trident...and follow a path of economic suicide...SOME few of us are out there ...helping ( in ways that actually acheive something other than just disturbing a few electrons in a microphone) our own needy.....

No he doesn't, he is against Trident, as am I, but is FOR keeping up our obligations to NATO, which includes the Armed Forces. If you are going to go on about something, at least get your facts straight. And he has top economists, including Paul Krugman, a Nobel Prize winning economist, who said his plan is the only one that will get us out of this mess and the continuation of austerity will continue being a failure.

REALLY....perhaps you could explain this then??

By Victor Morton - The Washington Times - Sunday, September 13, 2015

The man who will take over the leadership of one of Britain’s two major parties has said Britain should abolish its armed forces.

New Labor Party leader Jeremy Corbyn made the remarks against the existence of military units in 2012, at an atomic-bomb memorial ceremony in Japan, The Sun reported.

“Wouldn’t it be wonderful if every politician around the world instead of taking pride in the size of their armed forces did what the people of Costa Rica have done and abolished the army and took pride in the fact that they don’t have an army … surely that is the way we should be going forward,” Mr. Corbyn said.

The Sun went on to report that “two weeks ago Mr. Corbyn admitted he ‘couldn’t think’ of a situation in which he would deploy British troops.”

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:03 pm

victorismyhero wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

Separate unrelated issues, which you need to campaign and get on board more people to challenge the present Government. To use the plight of refugees is really clutching straws on your part, but like I said when you use your last line of defense humour, I know you have conceeded many of the points I have made

clearly "sardonic humour" is one step to far for you mate.....

oh and I havnt avoided anything.....

I have already laid out my conditions for acceptance of this as anything other than undesirable

and I have already stated that i recognise its inevitable

that does NOT mean I have to approve of it.....

NOR does it mean I have to be anything but "coldly neutral"

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:07 pm

victorismyhero wrote:
victorismyhero wrote:

clearly "sardonic humour" is one step to far for you mate.....

oh and I havnt avoided anything.....

I have already laid out my conditions for acceptance of this as anything other than undesirable

and I have already stated that i recognise its inevitable

that does NOT mean I have to approve of it.....

NOR does it mean I have to be anything but "coldly neutral"

You have laid out poor ground rules which in the main have utterly no relevance
Where you are trying to deny now refugees based off Government policy on disability
Its completely absurd
If you want to remain a grump, you created this by your own making, as others have not been angered over this and instead actually want to help.
So any feelings and emotions that you now have, you created yourself.

Night Victor

by eddie Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:20 pm

sassy wrote:
victorismyhero wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

Yes we saw the press propaganda machine in full swing today, inventing incorrect and misleading information on the amount of Syrians that have fled. To then claim people are being lied to which of course is blatantly on true, but its had its desired effect, to sway more people against refugees. The Mail even classed those who had drowned whilst fleeing persecution as Migrants, showing how prejudice that paper truly is. So yes the Likes of the Mail and Express have helped further the cause of ISIS by pandering to their claims and fear. Both are also doing their best to further help ISIS scare many EU nations to close their borders to refugees. Which is what they want of course they want people to remain within or near to their sphere of influence. Both these papers might as well be given royalties by ISIS for their stories that aid ISIS.

Its not irrelevant because you say so and you know its very relevant, where a view claimed which lacks validity when you break down the chances of such a claim being possible. Then add to this willing believers, helps fuel and spread the fear within the EU. So those bowing down to fear formed by ISIS, who in reality had the desired result from just claiming something. Of which as they know they have now a sizable amount of people who are inadvertently assisting them by falling prey to this fear. Means they will make further plays on those who are weak. Those easily led by fear. Again its about standing up to them, not bowing down as people have through fear. Which those who have, then help them achieve their aims.

which quite nicely avoids answering my points....

A true "politicians answer"

hey Mr politician...what about the affect of austerity on disable people?

Well mr Interviewer....see we have to save some money to help the rare spotted dick muncher in its fight dfor survival, caused by logging in the outer mongolian areas....We are going to help by banning timber from there ....and this will also help te outer mongolian back paddling yak duck, so we really ARE making a big difference...."

interviewer "?????????????????????????????????????????????????????"

Yes, and the people who are fighting to help disabled people, and the ex-service men without a home, and the poor and the vunerable, and the old who are now being told to sell their houses (amazing how the RW came out and objected to that although they have been telling the old hit by bedroom tax to move, all of a sudden when it's old people who own they homes, it's 'you can't make them move out of homes they have lived in for 50 years') and all the other dreadful things that austerity has landed us with to keep the rich, rich, are the same people who are fighting to help the refugees, BECAUSE WE FUCKING CARE ABOUT EVERYBODY AND ARE FIGHTING FOR EVERYBODY, BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL HUMAN BEINGING WHO DESERVE A DECENT LIFE.

It was his imitation of a politician answering the question, that was funny sassy lol!

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:21 pm

eddie wrote:
sassy wrote:

Yes, and the people who are fighting to help disabled people, and the ex-service men without a home, and the poor and the vunerable, and the old who are now being told to sell their houses (amazing how the RW came out and objected to that although they have been telling the old hit by bedroom tax to move, all of a sudden when it's old people who own they homes, it's 'you can't make them move out of homes they have lived in for 50 years') and all the other dreadful things that austerity has landed us with to keep the rich, rich, are the same people who are fighting to help the refugees, BECAUSE WE FUCKING CARE ABOUT EVERYBODY AND ARE FIGHTING FOR EVERYBODY, BECAUSE THEY ARE ALL HUMAN BEINGING WHO DESERVE A DECENT LIFE.

It was his imitation of a politician answering the question, that was funny sassy

OK, I simply don't find anything about this funny.

by eddie Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:25 pm

It was the typical politician's dodging of the question
It was amusing that's all lol

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:28 pm

Cuchulain wrote:

You have laid out poor ground rules which in the main have utterly no relevance
Where you are trying to deny now refugees based off Government policy on disability

I think you misunderstand......my conditions to accept this are clear.....
go ahead...but....every person in favour of this should be prepared to accept responsibility for anything that goes wrong ....
indeed all of them shoud be prepared to put up a bond of £10,000 to be paid at a proper compensatory rate to anyone who may be subsequently harmed if any of these "refugees" should prove to be anything less than harmless.....after all...whers the risk in that...you keep telling us how safe it is and how its nonsense that thers any danger from it...
so put yet money where yer mouth is.....I mean...nothing is going to happen is it..........what could possibly go wrong......

Its completely absurd
If you want to remain a grump, you created this by your own making, as others have not been angered over this and instead actually want to help.
So any feelings and emotions that you now have, you created yourself.

I have no "feelings or emotion" over this.....I think its a bad idea as things are....I have no "care" for these people ...they are NOT my tribe
I can see very few advantages to doing it, and a number of potential dangers, and a number of what I consider warped priorities but
as I said..its inevitable...but I dont have to agree with it nor be anything but "coldly neutral"

Night Victor

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:31 pm

victorismyhero wrote:
sassy wrote:

No he doesn't, he is against Trident, as am I, but is FOR keeping up our obligations to NATO, which includes the Armed Forces. If you are going to go on about something, at least get your facts straight. And he has top economists, including Paul Krugman, a Nobel Prize winning economist, who said his plan is the only one that will get us out of this mess and the continuation of austerity will continue being a failure.

REALLY....perhaps you could explain this then??

By Victor Morton - The Washington Times - Sunday, September 13, 2015

The man who will take over the leadership of one of Britain’s two major parties has said Britain should abolish its armed forces.

New Labor Party leader Jeremy Corbyn made the remarks against the existence of military units in 2012, at an atomic-bomb memorial ceremony in Japan, The Sun reported.

“Wouldn’t it be wonderful if every politician around the world instead of taking pride in the size of their armed forces did what the people of Costa Rica have done and abolished the army and took pride in the fact that they don’t have an army … surely that is the way we should be going forward,” Mr. Corbyn said.

The Sun went on to report that “two weeks ago Mr. Corbyn admitted he ‘couldn’t think’ of a situation in which he would deploy British troops.”

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:02 pm

WELL????

no answer

oh and while we are at it

what about his choice of agriculture minister??

a bloody vegan no less...and one who, once reconed we should all eat less meat.......becasue cow farts are causing climate change It took me six months to get from Syria to the UK. Now I want to live with dignity - Page 2 3489511464

It took me six months to get from Syria to the UK. Now I want to live with dignity - Page 2 3489511464

I mean...seriously...thye want US to take THAT shower seriously...

jeeze

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:08 pm

Really - so you have to be an accountant to be Chancellor then? Oops.

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:11 pm

sassy wrote:Really - so you have to be an accountant to be Chancellor then? Oops.

well...i reckon it would help somewhat.....but then when was the last time we actually had an acountant as chancellor??????

the point is a vegan is not exactly going to be "unbiased" in his judgement is he....and one who reckons cow farts are causing global warming is a bit of a liability to say the least....

what we getting??????? a govt of ruddy tree huggers ????????

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:12 pm

And vegans eat what farmers produce don't they - veg etc.

most vegans have emphatically chosen to disengage with the meat and dairy industries because they deem the standards of rearing and slaughtering animals for food too low. This is not a simple kneejerk, emotional reaction – it is a rational and pragmatic decision based on research and a refusal to subsidise increasingly brutalised methods of industrial food production.
In addition, there is a lack of transparency when it comes to livestock standards. And judging by the vegan MP’s comments, it is a commitment to improving these standards that will form the cornerstone of her brief. Describing her veganism as her own personal views, she went on to say: “In terms of Labour party policy, promoting animal welfare is something we have always done as is promoting sustainable farming. I’m personally happy working with farmers.”
Most people – with the exception of extremist blood sport advocates – do not enjoy the idea of animals being tortured, and killed in the appalling conditions that exist in some slaughterhouses. I believe the vast majority of the meat-eating British public would welcome better welfare standards and clearer food labelling.

Looking at data from the retail sector of the egg market, 52% of eggs purchased last year were free-range, with 3% barn-laid, and 45% from chickens in “enriched cages”. This suggests that there is an interest in animal welfare, with a small majority of consumers using food labelling to pick the more ethical, and correspondingly more expensive, product.
In fact farmers themselves stand to benefit from the better conditions McCarthy will be keen to champion. A 2010 report by the National Farmers’ Union made clear the vital link between animal wellbeing in the dairy sector and milk production. Not only are there potential fiscal benefits to improving the lives of these animals, the farm animal welfare committee, an advisory body to Defra, is currently committed to investigating what it describes as “possible links between the wellbeing of farmers and the welfare of their livestock”.
If McCarthy’s passion for the treatment of animals can translate into both pastoral and economic benefits for the sector, surely her lifestyle is to be commended, and not derided by people such as Mike King, vice chairman of the Royal Association of British Dairy Farmers, who said: “Her ideals are based on emotion rather than scientific fact.”

McCarthy’s campaigning in the past has focused on the highly unpopular and inefficient badger cull, as well as animal experimentation, animals in circuses and foxhunting, which continues to face huge public opposition. These are all mainstream causes. By trying to marginalise her ideals as unscientific, these critics risk alienating large swaths of the public who agree with McCarthy on a number of issues.
Not least of these is the environment – and while the tabloid press has had a field day with screeching headlines about her belief that beef farming is unsustainable, it has overlooked one hugely important fact. Methane emissions from animal agriculture are a massive factor in global warming (19% of total global greenhouse emissions).
According to a report released by the United Nations this year the world can expect a global population of more than nine billion by 2050. Describing current global consumption of meat and dairy as “unsustainable”, the report says: “Impacts from agriculture are expected to increase substantially due to population growth increasing consumption of animal products. Unlike fossil fuels, it is difficult to look for alternatives: people have to eat. A substantial reduction of impacts would only be possible with a substantial worldwide diet change, away from animal products.”
To have a shadow environment secretary who understands this smacks not of emotional silliness as has been suggested, but of an inherent and serious commitment to the global landscape and farming sector.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/16/vegan-shadow-agriculture-minister-jeremy-corbyn-kerry-mccarthy

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:28 pm

sassy wrote:And vegans eat what farmers produce don't they - veg etc.

most vegans have emphatically chosen to disengage with the meat and dairy industries because they deem the standards of rearing and slaughtering animals for food too low. This is not a simple kneejerk, emotional reaction – it is a rational and pragmatic decision based on research and a refusal to subsidise increasingly brutalised methods of industrial food production.
In addition, there is a lack of transparency when it comes to livestock standards. And judging by the vegan MP’s comments, it is a commitment to improving these standards that will form the cornerstone of her brief. Describing her veganism as her own personal views, she went on to say: “In terms of Labour party policy, promoting animal welfare is something we have always done as is promoting sustainable farming. I’m personally happy working with farmers.”
Most people – with the exception of extremist blood sport advocates – do not enjoy the idea of animals being tortured, and killed in the appalling conditions that exist in some slaughterhouses. I believe the vast majority of the meat-eating British public would welcome better welfare standards and clearer food labelling.

Looking at data from the retail sector of the egg market, 52% of eggs purchased last year were free-range, with 3% barn-laid, and 45% from chickens in “enriched cages”. This suggests that there is an interest in animal welfare, with a small majority of consumers using food labelling to pick the more ethical, and correspondingly more expensive, product.
In fact farmers themselves stand to benefit from the better conditions McCarthy will be keen to champion. A 2010 report by the National Farmers’ Union made clear the vital link between animal wellbeing in the dairy sector and milk production. Not only are there potential fiscal benefits to improving the lives of these animals, the farm animal welfare committee, an advisory body to Defra, is currently committed to investigating what it describes as “possible links between the wellbeing of farmers and the welfare of their livestock”.
If McCarthy’s passion for the treatment of animals can translate into both pastoral and economic benefits for the sector, surely her lifestyle is to be commended, and not derided by people such as Mike King, vice chairman of the Royal Association of British Dairy Farmers, who said: “Her ideals are based on emotion rather than scientific fact.”

McCarthy’s campaigning in the past has focused on the highly unpopular and inefficient badger cull, as well as animal experimentation, animals in circuses and foxhunting, which continues to face huge public opposition. These are all mainstream causes. By trying to marginalise her ideals as unscientific, these critics risk alienating large swaths of the public who agree with McCarthy on a number of issues.
Not least of these is the environment – and while the tabloid press has had a field day with screeching headlines about her belief that beef farming is unsustainable, it has overlooked one hugely important fact. Methane emissions from animal agriculture are a massive factor in global warming (19% of total global greenhouse emissions).
According to a report released by the United Nations this year the world can expect a global population of more than nine billion by 2050. Describing current global consumption of meat and dairy as “unsustainable”, the report says: “Impacts from agriculture are expected to increase substantially due to population growth increasing consumption of animal products. Unlike fossil fuels, it is difficult to look for alternatives: people have to eat. A substantial reduction of impacts would only be possible with a substantial worldwide diet change, away from animal products.”
To have a shadow environment secretary who understands this smacks not of emotional silliness as has been suggested, but of an inherent and serious commitment to the global landscape and farming sector.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/sep/16/vegan-shadow-agriculture-minister-jeremy-corbyn-kerry-mccarthy

which shows what an idiot she and the others supporting this are....

guess what.....

if we dont have a meat industry and dont eat meat......we will have to import 10 times as much food as we do now...

we cant...no I mean CANT produce anywhere near the amount of food required by veggie farming, not only that but to even attempt to do so would put an unbearable strain on the land itself.... requiring continuous double cropping, with no "falow" time OR crop rotation...vastly increased use of feritilser and herbicides...widespread use of GM crops..
and the kinds of crops we CAN grow are insuficient to provide a decent diet.....

add to that that we willbe needing to gobble up the area required for two cities (and more) for housing

pfft...usual tree hugging pie in the sky it'll be ok rubbish we have come to expect from the left....

how about...instead of pissing about with stuff that will screw us all...you deal with the real problems...those of social justice....

this is EXACTLY what I meant when I told you why i dont like labour any more, when I said all they do is "fiddle " with things that are not pressing problems, rather than "governing a nation"

OH and what about that news item??? hmmm??? Corbyn deffo said he wants to get rid of our armed forces

he also said he "couldnt see a sitution wher he would use them??? what,,,not even if we were attacked???? roll over...OH YES lefty surrender monkeys out in force.....
do we take it then he will not be sending up the RAF to chase russian tupolevs out of our air space??? do we take it he will not use the navy to chase illegal fishing vessles out of our waters???

by Guest Sat Sep 19, 2015 11:29 pm

I realise now the man is an idiot...and a dangerous one too.....

by Guest Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:02 am

victorismyhero wrote:
Cuchulain wrote:

You have laid out poor ground rules which in the main have utterly no relevance
Where you are trying to deny now refugees based off Government policy on disability

I think you misunderstand......my conditions to accept this are clear.....
go ahead...but....every person in favour of this should be prepared to accept responsibility for anything that goes wrong ....
indeed all of them shoud be prepared to put up a bond of £10,000 to be paid at a proper compensatory rate to anyone who may be subsequently harmed if any of these "refugees" should prove to be anything less than harmless.....after all...whers the risk in that...you keep telling us how safe it is and how its nonsense that thers any danger from it...
so put yet money where yer mouth is.....I mean...nothing is going to happen is it..........what could possibly go wrong......

Its completely absurd
If you want to remain a grump, you created this by your own making, as others have not been angered over this and instead actually want to help.
So any feelings and emotions that you now have, you created yourself.

I have no "feelings or emotion" over this.....I think its a bad idea as things are....I have no "care" for these people ...they are NOT my tribe
I can see very few advantages to doing it, and a number of potential dangers, and a number of what I consider warped priorities but
as I said..its inevitable...but I dont have to agree with it nor be anything but "coldly neutral"

Night Victor

1) Nobody is responsible to how you cannot control an emotive state brought about by such conditions you have invented yourself , which others have no need or a requirement to. Not only that your requirement lacks equality, because if a criminal comes to the country through tourism and shoots dead 20 people who is responsible for that and to pay compensation for that? In other words your view to insist on conditions is nothing more than grounded in something similar to religious belief. Inventing certain rules and conditions when there is no need to do so, flawed as unequal, has no validity. Not only that what happens if the terrorist is an ISIS fighter who came to Britain through the means of residency? In other words you are trying to poorly justify prejudice against refugees based off the fact you have no valid reason too. Other than a selfish view to not help other humans and more so not to share this land. You are trying to make accountable refugees for nothing they have done wrong. It is ISIS who have claimed to exploit the plight of the refugees. So there is no comprehensible way you can justify blaming the refugees. Again fault will lie with security ,checks and measures. I love how you also invent things I have never claimed. I have constantly used risk to define a situation, where again there is more chance of you being struck by lightening than there is of being involved in a terrorist act. You do understand the difference? Not only that what we are doing here is weighing up the risks, and the greatest risks are faced by groups of refugees. Which I might add the world has helped create an influx by being in fear of taking action on the ground in both Syria and Iraq with the combined forces of Arab nations. We have allowed Putin also to call the shots. So if you really want to be pedantic, I suggest you send off your request for compensation to Putin, Assad or ISIS. It is Putin that has doggedly helped Assad retain power. So no matter what way you look to find a reason to try and make yourself feel better over your own failings based on your views. I will easily be able to direct where your claim should be sent to.

2) I beg to differ you are certainly annoyed and negative over refugees coming here and are using views to blame refugees for things they cannot possible be to blame for, when they did not create the situation they are faced with. Many factors have played a part. A fear of a loss of religious control. The alienation of the Baathist party members when the allies took control. The exporting of Wahhabism. The unjustified Iraq war. Centuries old feuds between Sunni and Shia Muslims. Of which s is being orchestrated by Saudi and Iran. So there is no possible justification to then claim compensation for wanting to do the right thing and help people who are in imminent need. ISIS have before claimed that 4,000 had infiltrated into the EU by Jan, so if now they claim another 4,000 that would make that 8,000 in total. Or its just the same claim to 4,000 from Jan being regurgitated. Which just further proves ISIS are manipulating the fear factor to the most effective levels. Again there is no doubt some small groups will try to exploit and have exploited the refugee situation to gain entry into the EU. Its easier to use those who already have residency if your aim was to carry out an attack. So unless you can nullify that choice of entry for ISIS fighters, or through tourism, or business, or foreign students and finally migrants, then your view is illogical to place and unjustified to blame refugees. The very people in many cases fleeing from these extremists.

by Guest Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:29 am

Cuchulain wrote:

1) Nobody is responsible to how you cannot control an emotive state brought about by such conditions you have invented yourself , which others have no need or a requirement to. Not only that your requirement lacks equality, because if a criminal comes to the country through tourism and shoots dead 20 people who is responsible for that and to pay compensation for that? In other words your view to insist on conditions is nothing more than grounded in something similar to religious belief. Inventing certain rules and conditions when there is no need to do so, flawed as unequal, has no validity. Not only that what happens if the terrorist is an ISIS fighter who came to Britain through the means of residency? In other words you are trying to poorly justify prejudice against refugees based off the fact you have no valid reason too. Other than a selfish view to not help other humans and more so not to share this land. You are trying to make accountable refugees for nothing they have done wrong.

Wrong...I'm trying to make those like you who support this "accountable" please re read what I said...

It is ISIS who have claimed to exploit the plight of the refugees. So there is no comprehensible way you can justify blaming the refugees.

I'm NOT blaming the refugees, hell I'm not blaming anyone...since nothing has happened to "blame" anybody for ......yet....

Again fault will lie with security ,checks and measures. I love how you also invent things I have never claimed. I have constantly used risk to define a situation, where again there is more chance of you being struck by lightening than there is of being involved in a terrorist act.

yep true....nature I cant control......

You do understand the difference? Not only that what we are doing here is weighing up the risks, and the greatest risks are faced by groups of refugees. Which I might add the world has helped create an influx by being in fear of taking action on the ground in both Syria and Iraq with the combined forces of Arab nations. We have allowed Putin also to call the shots. So if you really want to be pedantic, I suggest you send off your request for compensation to Putin, Assad or ISIS. It is Putin that has doggedly helped Assad retain power. So no matter what way you look to find a reason to try and make yourself feel better over your own failings based on your views. I will easily be able to direct where your claim should be sent to.

2) I beg to differ you are certainly annoyed and negative over refugees coming here and are using views to blame refugees for things they cannot possible be to blame for, when they did not create the situation they are faced with. Many factors have played a part. A fear of a loss of religious control. The alienation of the Baathist party members when the allies took control. The exporting of Wahhabism. The unjustified Iraq war. Centuries old feuds between Sunni and Shia Muslims. Of which s is being orchestrated by Saudi and Iran. So there is no possible justification to then claim compensation for wanting to do the right thing and help people who are in imminent need. ISIS have before claimed that 4,000 had infiltrated into the EU by Jan, so if now they claim another 4,000 that would make that 8,000 in total. Which just further proves ISIS are manipulating the fear factor to the most effective levels. Again there is no doubt some small groups will try to exploit and have exploited the refugee situation to gain entry into the EU. Its easier to use those who already have residency if your aim was to carry out an attack. So unless you can nullify that choice of entry for ISIS fighters, or through tourism, or business, or foreign students and finally migrants, then your view is illogical to place and unjustified to blame refugees. The very people in many cases fleeing from these extremists.

as I said...its all rather irrelevant anyway...its going to happen (the refugees comming here...with ALL that that entails) and then the next lot...and then the next and so on....

oh well...

another 30 years if I'm lucky and it wont bother me...I'll be pushing up daisies by then I would imagine..... It took me six months to get from Syria to the UK. Now I want to live with dignity - Page 2 2190311264

It took me six months to get from Syria to the UK. Now I want to live with dignity - Page 2 2190311264

and if in that time it does blow up It likely wont bother me much.....doubt if I'll even hear the bang......

see didge

you totally misunderstand my position....

I think this is a bad idea , for a number of very valid reasons (whether YOU think they are valid or not is merely YOUR opinion)
I also am realistic enough to know that whatever I say its going to happen so........
I DONT have to approve of it
I DONT have to "like it"
I certainly dont have to think its a "good" idea

I dont see any benefit from it...

as I said...

coldly neutral

I wouldnt (even IF i could) obstruct it, (though I may argue against it)

but as much as it is in my power neither will i do anything to facilitate it......

by Guest Sun Sep 20, 2015 12:46 am

Sorry Victor but your reasons are flawed when you look at other methods of access to this country and you are then unjustly creating an unfair stance for people to justify denying refugees. I have easily show how ISIS easily manipulate fear to their advantage that a day or so ago people were convinced thousands have been infiltrated because they took ISIS at face value. Now I have reasoned that their claim is unlikely to be true. Its no doubt true they have infiltrated a small amount of people into the EU, but they are using the same exact claim from 9 months ago. They are thus clearly over exaggerating the claim to instill fear and they have succeeded if their aims here as some countries have introduced poor policies that denies human rights to refugees.

I am a realist to, where the responsible thing to do is help people if we can and we can help people. What is poor is how people are allowing themselves to be manipulated by ISIS. Where they are allowing themselves to be manipulated. As their thoughts are clouded from questioning ISIS, because their main focus is based on negativity or dislike or selfish reasons of refugees, immigrants, migrants etc which is their main focus. So because of their negative views on. So dues to these reasons for their focus, they readily accept claims made by ISIS where it concerns refugees. As they then try to capitalize on this to poorly argue against allowing refugees to come here. As seen ISIS fighters have multiple methods to gain entry. This then nullifies their attempts at justifying denying refugees .

We are never going to agree on matters like this, which is cool, it adds to the debates and enjoy most of all debating with you Victor. I know very well from where you are coming from. Though to me we ensure this conflict continues by sitting back and ensuring and increasing the number of refugees by our limited action. If you really want to help reduce the number of refugees Syria would be the first port of call to resolve

by Guest Sun Sep 20, 2015 10:37 pm

@Sassy.....how about an answer?

OH and what about that news item??? hmmm??? Corbyn deffo said he wants to get rid of our armed forces

he also said he "couldnt see a sitution wher he would use them??? what,,,not even if we were attacked???? roll over...OH YES lefty surrender monkeys out in force.....
do we take it then he will not be sending up the RAF to chase russian tupolevs out of our air space??? do we take it he will not use the navy to chase illegal fishing vessles out of our waters???

by Guest Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:04 pm

dont it go quiet when the lefties get cornered.....

by Tommy Monk Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:17 pm

They spout their walls of waffle and then when the walls of waffle have been smashed by truth and facts... they crawl away and hide under the remaining rocks...

by Guest Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:19 pm

victorismyhero wrote:
@Sassy.....how about an answer?

OH and what about that news item??? hmmm??? Corbyn deffo said he wants to get rid of our armed forces

he also said he "couldnt see a sitution wher he would use them??? what,,,not even if we were attacked???? roll over...OH YES lefty surrender monkeys out in force.....
do we take it then he will not be sending up the RAF to chase russian tupolevs out of our air space??? do we take it he will not use the navy to chase illegal fishing vessles out of our waters???

An answer to what, I haven't been reading the Syria threads because frankly you lot disgust me so much you make me want to puke.

by Raggamuffin Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:22 pm

That's rich coming from someone who supports a terrorist supporter.

by Guest Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:26 pm

an answer to that point Sassy.....

corby certainly DID say he was in favour of abolishing our armed forces.......and has stated he see's no situation where he would use them abroad

so whats he going to use em for (if he keeps them) to supress the british people???
to control the inevitable uprising?

by Guest Mon Sep 21, 2015 9:32 pm

sassy wrote:
victorismyhero wrote:
@Sassy.....how about an answer?

OH and what about that news item??? hmmm??? Corbyn deffo said he wants to get rid of our armed forces

he also said he "couldnt see a sitution wher he would use them??? what,,,not even if we were attacked???? roll over...OH YES lefty surrender monkeys out in force.....
do we take it then he will not be sending up the RAF to chase russian tupolevs out of our air space??? do we take it he will not use the navy to chase illegal fishing vessles out of our waters???

An answer to what, I haven't been reading the Syria threads because frankly you lot disgust me so much you make me want to puke.

also this...

why?...becasue we dont roll over immediately and agree with you

You know , I always thought it was the R/W that were of the abusive "thug" mentality.....

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