Houston cops shoot unarmed black patient in hospital — and then charge him with assault

lan Pean is a 26-year-old biology student with no criminal record or history of violence. But on August 27th, he was shot in the chest by an off-duty Houston police officer working as a security guard at the St. Joseph Medical Center. The police are claiming that Alan became combative and that they followed standard operating procedure. It’s Alan, they say, who is as fault, and they have charged with two counts of aggravated assault against a public servant. He was arraigned today.
According to the Houston Police Department’s statement,

Officers Ortega and Law were working extra jobs as security at St. Joseph Medical Center at the above address when they were summoned to the eighth floor to help nurses subdue a combative patient.  Once the officers arrived, the patient continued to refuse to comply with the nurses and officers’ demands.  The patient suddenly physically assaulted Officer Ortega, striking him in the head, causing a laceration.  At that time, Officer Law deployed his conducted energy device, which had no apparent effect on the suspect who continued to assault the officers.  Officer Ortega, fearing for his and his partner’s safety, then discharged his duty weapon, striking the suspect one time.

But the family and medical professionals are disturbed by the handling of Alan’s case and what looks like a failure on many levels. Alan had driven himself to the hospital the night of August 26, during an acute mental health crisis. When he got there, he crashed his car and was treated for those injuries. But the mental health issues, which were what brought Alan to the hospital in the first place, were ignored, according to the Pean family. Alan’s father, himself a physician, begged the hospital to get his son a psychiatric evaluation given that Alan had suffered a similar episode in 2009. But the hospital decided he was ready to be discharged, clearing him a mere minutes before the shooting. How did he go from being cleared to leave to so combative that only a bullet could protect two officers? Medical neglect followed by the use of excessive force led to what could have very easily been a fatal shooting. Health care professionals have started a petition condemning the presence of guns in hospitals and the criminalization of patients and mental health patients in particular. It reads

Personally, we stand in outrage for every time he is referred to as “combative” without sub-clause or context, we stand in outrage for every time he is called a “suspect” instead of a patient, we stand in outrage for every time he, one empty-handed, help-seeking man, is painted as a threat to two officers, able bodied and armed, in a hospital.
Professionally, we have been trained in truth seeking and healing. As doctors and medical students, as nurses and care partners, we are trained in how to safely restrain and tranquilize patients, no matter how aggressive, or irritable, or anxious, or threatening they may be. Never is it appropriate or warranted for a patient to be tazed, never is it appropriate for a patient to be struck, never, never, never is it appropriate for a patient seeking care, to have their life threatened in our arms.
Personally and professionally, we are shaken by the reality of this epidemic of police brutality, in which no one– no son of a doctor, no college student, no tender-hearted soul of color remains immune. We stand with shaken hearts and rooted conviction, to speak our collective outrage for Alan Christopher Pean, our gentle friend, a 26 year old who was inexcusably shot in the chest by a police officer, while seeking care as a patient.”

Alan’s family is focusing on making sure this never happens again. Alan’s attitude is particularly inspiring and generous. He wrote on his Facebook page,

The anguish caused by trying to understand why (according to the hospital) this had to happen to me has only started. Is it because I look a bit different that I had to be shot without a second thought about my life or my personhood? I try not to think that’s the case, but I seem to find myself at that conclusion as I delve deeper into my case, as well as those similar to mine. I pray with all my heart that people change, and I have faith that we can for the better. I love myself, and I love humanity, but I don’t believe that humanity or American society willfully wants things to be this way…
So I will fight until I know every person seeking medical help will have his or her right to pursue a better life protected. Keep guns out of places of healing. Help stop this madness, and let’s make our society a better place. Where love and understanding falters, confusion and hate breeds.

Alan’s older brother, Christian, a 27-year old in his last year of year medical student at New York’s Mt Sinai School of Medicine, is concerned about Alan’s suffering and at the same time determined to protect others from a similar neglect and abuse. I spoke to him today after his brother was arraigned and he said,

This entire ordeal has been an absolute nightmare for Alan and our family. We’re trying to trust the system and hope that truth prevails, though the reality is that the system has failed us miserably at every conceivable juncture in this matter thus far. Our main focus is just making sure Alan doesn’t go to prison right now. From my perspective and my father’s perspective as healthcare professionals, the entire thing still has us completely beside ourselves.
However, at this time, all we can do is hope that Alan’s supporters continue to send love and compassion his way, and that we have more answers to how this could have happened, and how it can be considered appropriate in anyone’s eyes. We are of the belief that this should never happen to anyone again.

http://www.rawstory.com/2015/09/houston-cops-shoot-unarmed-black-patient-in-hospital-and-then-charge-him-with-assault/

Oh boy

I predict more hissy fits from the black lives matters extremist group

Harris County, TX again. That has got the be the worst piss-hole in the universe. I predict that if they ever give the earth an enema, they will stick the hose in Houston.

So Pepsi cops are now shooting people. Well, Zimmerman was a Pepsi cop, so that shouldn't surprise anyone.

This is abysmal! What is wrong with the police in the U.S.??

Quill your nations is being exposed for containing more and more piss-hole places

Just saying that defense is starting to wear thin

veya_victaous wrote:Quill your nations is being exposed for containing more and more piss-hole places

Just saying that defense is starting to wear thin

It's the south, veya.  There are reasons for it, but why bore everyone with another history lesson.  In civilized places like California, we are as shocked and awed as anyone.

I certainly wouldn't mind if the south went for secession.  Texas governor Perry has suggested it.  Texas was once an independent Republic, and they joined the US on the condition that they could leave on their own volition; however, the Civil War may have put that idea to sleep.  I even have an idea where to draw lines: Ohio river, everything south; extend a line over to the Rio Grande in New Mexico, and include everything south and east; then everything to the north and west or east is the US.

In other times, I have suggested the the US be divided into five countries: New England and the northeast; the midwest (Ohio to Minnesota); south (Mason-Dixon line; real west(Kansas to Utah); and then the Pacific Rim States of America: California, Arizona, Nevada, Oregon, Washington, Hawai'i and Alaska.  To be fair, invitations would be extended by PRSA to North and South Baja California, as well as British Columbia, both of which would be somewhat isolated by this economically.  So...they're good people, give them a break.

Really, the only thing we have in common with the south is the language.  And sometimes I wonder about that.  Lol.

Original Quill wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:Quill your nations is being exposed for containing more and more piss-hole places

Just saying that defense is starting to wear thin

It's the south, veya.  There are reasons for it, but why bore everyone with another history lesson.  In civilized places like California, we are as shocked and awed as anyone.

I certainly wouldn't mind if the south went for secession.  Texas governor Perry has suggested it.  Texas was once an independent Republic, and they joined the US on the condition that they could leave on their own volition; however, the Civil War may have put that idea to sleep.  I even have an idea where to draw lines: Ohio river, everything south; extend a line over to the Rio Grande in New Mexico, and include everything south and east; then everything to the north and west or east is the US.

In other times, I have suggested the the US be divided into five countries: New England and the northeast; the midwest (Ohio to Minnesota); south (Mason-Dixon line; real west(Kansas to Utah); and then the Pacific Rim States of America: California, Arizona, Nevada, Oregon, Washington, Hawai'i and Alaska.  To be fair, invitations would be extended by PRSA to North and South Baja California, as well as British Columbia, both of which would be somewhat isolated by this economically.  So...they're good people, give them a break.

Really, the only thing we have in common with the south is the language.  And sometimes I wonder about that.  Lol.

What about Ben? You going to leave him to suffer on in Texas Quill, as well as others like him in the South after secession? How about trying to combat and change the ideologies that are so prevalent in the Southern States? Would that not work best because basically you are also condemning countless people whether they be classed as white, Black, Latino, Asian, Liberal etc to suffer. Where they would be without any form of Protection that they once had under the United States Constitution? After such a secession, poor Ben would be suffering under Bibical law based on Deuteronomy in Texas.

I was actually going to say similar, the Texans i have meet either online or in real life. have been generally quite LW.
In real Life One Californian I meet was quite retar(Cough)... I mean Right wing... and the most crazy was from the north i think Maine (I remember it was the same state as Steven king).

to be fair i don't think the real rednecks travel much

Cuchulain wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

It's the south, veya.  There are reasons for it, but why bore everyone with another history lesson.  In civilized places like California, we are as shocked and awed as anyone.

I certainly wouldn't mind if the south went for secession.  Texas governor Perry has suggested it.  Texas was once an independent Republic, and they joined the US on the condition that they could leave on their own volition; however, the Civil War may have put that idea to sleep.  I even have an idea where to draw lines: Ohio river, everything south; extend a line over to the Rio Grande in New Mexico, and include everything south and east; then everything to the north and west or east is the US.

In other times, I have suggested the the US be divided into five countries: New England and the northeast; the midwest (Ohio to Minnesota); south (Mason-Dixon line; real west(Kansas to Utah); and then the Pacific Rim States of America: California, Arizona, Nevada, Oregon, Washington, Hawai'i and Alaska.  To be fair, invitations would be extended by PRSA to North and South Baja California, as well as British Columbia, both of which would be somewhat isolated by this economically.  So...they're good people, give them a break.

Really, the only thing we have in common with the south is the language.  And sometimes I wonder about that.  Lol.

What about Ben? You going to leave him to suffer on in Texas Quill, as well as others like him in the South after secession? How about trying to combat and change the ideologies that are so prevalent in the Southern States? Would that not work best because basically you are also condemning countless people whether they be classed as white, Black, Latino, Asian, Liberal etc to suffer. Where they would be without any form of Protection that they once had under the United States Constitution? After such a secession, poor Ben would be suffering under Bibical law based on Deuteronomy in Texas.

What about Ben?  What about Wendy Davis, the most promising leader of all them?  And there are crazies, even in...nay, particularly in north, Northern California.  Lol.  I would imagine all of the good guys would move here, and leave the rednecks--unwashed--in the great vacuum cleaner of the south.

But I'm not going to live long enough to see the rednecks and crackers of this world extinguished entirely.  There is an outside chance that if the South ever did try to secede, we in the west could quickly reorganize and go our separate way--that is, if Washington DC were failing this time, as it looks like they might.  They can't seem to be able to negotiate a good fart.  I would hate to leave New England behind (they are most like California), but so it goes.  And I love BC and Baja.  Imagine having a beach summer house in Cabo San Lucas, and powder skiing in Whistler, all in the same country.

We in the west would take the best parts with us.  California alone is the 7th-largest economy in the world.  Air-frames, shipbuilding, the world-wide center of the computer industry.  The Central Valley produces most of the food for the nation.  Fishing is great out of San Diego and San Francisco.  Great ports in Los Angeles, Long Beach, Oakland and Seattle.  Hawai'i would provide a central spot for controlling trade in the Pacific (as it did before WWII).  Plenty of oil, shale.  I could go on, but nuff said.  Perhaps nowhere else in the US is so much combined and concentrated...plus, we would have the bluest of the blue states...Alaska would have to toe the mark, and Arizona would have to send the Mormons back to Utah and Idaho.  Lol...but we'll work it out.

eddie wrote:This is abysmal! What is wrong with the police in the U.S.??

Color blindness??

Original Quill wrote:

Cuchulain wrote:

What about Ben? You going to leave him to suffer on in Texas Quill, as well as others like him in the South after secession? How about trying to combat and change the ideologies that are so prevalent in the Southern States? Would that not work best because basically you are also condemning countless people whether they be classed as white, Black, Latino, Asian, Liberal etc to suffer. Where they would be without any form of Protection that they once had under the United States Constitution? After such a secession, poor Ben would be suffering under Bibical law based on Deuteronomy in Texas.

What about Ben?  What about Wendy Davis, the most promising leader of all them?  And there are crazies, even in...nay, particularly in north, Northern California.  Lol.  I would imagine all of the good guys would move here, and leave the rednecks--unwashed--in the great vacuum cleaner of the south.

But I'm not going to live long enough to see the rednecks and crackers of this world extinguished entirely.  There is an outside chance that if the South ever did try to secede, we in the west could quickly reorganize and go our separate way--that is, if Washington DC were failing this time, as it looks like they might.  They can't seem to be able to negotiate a good fart.  I would hate to leave New England behind (they are most like California), but so it goes.  And I love BC and Baja.  Imagine having a beach summer house in Cabo San Lucas, and powder skiing in Whistler, all in the same country.

We in the west would take the best parts with us.  California alone is the 7th-largest economy in the world.  Air-frames, shipbuilding, the world-wide center of the computer industry.  The Central Valley produces most of the food for the nation.  Fishing is great out of San Diego and San Francisco.  Great ports in Los Angeles, Long Beach, Oakland and Seattle.  Hawai'i would provide a central spot for controlling trade in the Pacific (as it did before WWII).  Plenty of oil, shale.  I could go on, but nuff said.  Perhaps nowhere else in the US is so much combined and concentrated...plus, we would have the bluest of the blue states...Alaska would have to toe the mark, and Arizona would have to send the Mormons back to Utah and Idaho.  Lol...but we'll work it out.

So in other words where you claimed the Dutchman is selfish you are doing the same and condemning countess minorities and Liberals in these ares to Republican and biblical nightmare..

One word to say about that.

Absurd

You do not get to place the fate of many people in the hands of others because you wish to segregate a nation.

If Tommy were to sit there and try to divide England like that, "ignorant" and "stupid" and "more troubled" (read poorer) people togetherness quill would say it was racist.
Because that's where most of the blacks live in our country.

He's being racist, again, or is it, another word I'm looking for?
Selective???

Is it okay to be selective if you're not using "colour" then?

eddie wrote:If Tommy were to sit there and try to divide England like that,  "ignorant" and "stupid" and "more troubled" (read poorer) people togetherness quill would say it was racist.
Because that's where most  of the blacks live in our country.

He's being racist, again, or is it, another word I'm looking for?
Selective???

Is it okay to be selective if you're not using "colour" then?

the word youre looking for is hypocrite

smelly-bandit wrote:

eddie wrote:If Tommy were to sit there and try to divide England like that,  "ignorant" and "stupid" and "more troubled" (read poorer) people togetherness quill would say it was racist.
Because that's where most  of the blacks live in our country.

He's being racist, again, or is it, another word I'm looking for?
Selective???

Is it okay to be selective if you're not using "colour" then?

the word youre looking for is hypocrite

Am I the only one to see it?

It's just white racism but coming from a white person!

eddie wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:

the word youre looking for is hypocrite

Am I the only one to see it?

It's just white racism but coming from a white person!

How is it racism?
Where is the racial segregation?

What he poposes is daft that is for sure and is segregating a nation based on politicla views, not racials views eddie.
Its disgusting and abusrd where I stated the following earlier.


What about Ben? You going to leave him to suffer on in Texas Quill, as well as others like him in the South after secession? How about trying to combat and change the ideologies that are so prevalent in the Southern States? Would that not work best because basically you are also condemning countless people whether they be classed as white, Black, Latino, Asian, Liberal etc to suffer. Where they would be without any form of Protection that they once had under the United States Constitution? After such a secession, poor Ben would be suffering under Bibical law based on Deuteronomy in Texas.

This is a common theme with Quill.
He says he's white yet he seems to dislike whites and thinks we are all racist?

eddie wrote:This is a common theme with Quill.
He says he's white yet he seems to dislike whites and thinks we are all racist?

Yes I am well aware of contradicting views on racism Eddie
What he calls for here though is based on political division based on Republican/Tea Party states and Democratic states.
Hence I think you are confusing racism here

I don't know if it is racist but if definitely is some sort of prejudice

State-ist or something

And I say "Californination" should take all the refugees from this new redneck nation he wants to create and he better make sure they don't get any nukes


It is a terrible Idea actually... the world would be in perpetual war .... without the balancing influence they be launching nukes at everyone that spoke funny

veya_victaous wrote:I don't know if it is racist but if definitely is some sort of prejudice

State-ist or something

And I say "Californination" should take all the refugees from this new redneck nation he wants to create and he better make sure they don't get any nukes


It is a terrible Idea actually... the world would be in perpetual war ....  without the balancing influence they be launching nukes at everyone that spoke funny

I agree its completely selfish and daft
I would like to see Ben's views on this when he is next online

Cuchulain wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

What about Ben?  What about Wendy Davis, the most promising leader of all them?  And there are crazies, even in...nay, particularly in north, Northern California.  Lol.  I would imagine all of the good guys would move here, and leave the rednecks--unwashed--in the great vacuum cleaner of the south.

But I'm not going to live long enough to see the rednecks and crackers of this world extinguished entirely.  There is an outside chance that if the South ever did try to secede, we in the west could quickly reorganize and go our separate way--that is, if Washington DC were failing this time, as it looks like they might.  They can't seem to be able to negotiate a good fart.  I would hate to leave New England behind (they are most like California), but so it goes.  And I love BC and Baja.  Imagine having a beach summer house in Cabo San Lucas, and powder skiing in Whistler, all in the same country.

We in the west would take the best parts with us.  California alone is the 7th-largest economy in the world.  Air-frames, shipbuilding, the world-wide center of the computer industry.  The Central Valley produces most of the food for the nation.  Fishing is great out of San Diego and San Francisco.  Great ports in Los Angeles, Long Beach, Oakland and Seattle.  Hawai'i would provide a central spot for controlling trade in the Pacific (as it did before WWII).  Plenty of oil, shale.  I could go on, but nuff said.  Perhaps nowhere else in the US is so much combined and concentrated...plus, we would have the bluest of the blue states...Alaska would have to toe the mark, and Arizona would have to send the Mormons back to Utah and Idaho.  Lol...but we'll work it out.

So in other words where you claimed the Dutchman is selfish you are doing the same and condemning countess minorities and Liberals in these ares to Republican and biblical nightmare..

One word to say about that.

Absurd

You do not get to place the fate of many people in the hands of others because you wish to segregate a nation.

Utopia building is not leaving behind. First, we, the good guys, are already here. Second, the good ones elsewhere can come over to us. That was the dream once: “Give me your tired, your poor, Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free…”

If you think about it, you are saying there can never be an ideal because someone gets left out. The answer to that is to share the utopia. Just no Republicans, rednecks or Mormons…they are proven losers. Lol.

Quill thanks for your input as seen I disagree and have given my reasons why, I am more interested to see what Ben thinks based on what I have said, where your view would leave him under a possibility of  Biblical Deuteronomy laws, if Texas became independent or formed a New Confederacy.

eddie wrote:If Tommy were to sit there and try to divide England like that,  "ignorant" and "stupid" and "more troubled" (read poorer) people togetherness quill would say it was racist.
Because that's where most  of the blacks live in our country.

He's being racist, again, or is it, another word I'm looking for?
Selective???

Is it okay to be selective if you're not using "colour" then?

Stereotypes.  That's the problem, as John Dewey, the father of the field of psychology, said. We think in scripts and stereotypes rather than reason.  John Dewey, How We Think (1910).

You have me in your contemplation, eds, but you have completely failed to listen to what I say.  Perhaps that is because, as you confessed,  your eyes glaze over and you stop reading after the third line.  

The problem with conservative and Republican selfishness is that it focuses attention on the self.  This precludes, in turn, attention to the other...the outside and the other person.  In short, you don't know what's going on or what is being said.  Does that sound like Donald Trump?  Does that relate to the 'do-nothing' Congress in Washington, which can pass 54 bills to repeal Obamacare, which fail, but cannot fix one highway or bridge on the Interstate highway system?

I suggest that is why Republicans and conservatives communicate in jingles and jargon...they can't concentrate for very long spells of time.  Their eyes glaze over and they pass out.  If it doesn't relate to some facile script--if it involves reason and hence mental energy, they check out.

eddie wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:

the word youre looking for is hypocrite

Am I the only one to see it?

It's just white racism but coming from a white person!

There is no such thing as white racism.  Whites were never slaves, nor members of an outcast or non-privileged group.

There is, however, such a thing as a retrogressive racist: one who co-opts the term to counter the opposition to racism.  I think you fit quite comfortably in that role.

Original Quill wrote:

eddie wrote:

Am I the only one to see it?

It's just white racism but coming from a white person!

There is no such thing as white racism.  Whites were never slaves, nor members of an outcast or non-privileged group.

There is, however, such a thing as a retrogressive racist: one who co-opts the term to counter the opposition to racism.  I think you fit quite comfortably in that role.

Scary

veya_victaous wrote:I don't know if it is racist but if definitely is some sort of prejudice

State-ist or something

And I say "Californination" should take all the refugees from this new redneck nation he wants to create and he better make sure they don't get any nukes


It is a terrible Idea actually... the world would be in perpetual war ....  without the balancing influence they be launching nukes at everyone that spoke funny

“State-ism”…interesting.  I catch your head scratch, veya.  It’s the “ism” that is intriguing.  In other words, you can take some noun, tack on an “ism” and you have something you can talk about, or you question.  You have no reason to question; you have no root cause—like racism or poverty—that got you started.  If it can have an “ism” it’s subject to analysis, and perhaps criticism.

What if the noun is a good thing?  Take Israel.  What if some Jews up and left the bigots in Europe and went off to Israel to make a new life?  What if they left a note behind, saying: Join us if you want, we’ll be waiting?”

Isn’t that exactly what happened.  Exodus-ism?

I think that some of you are so caught up in the mirror-image metaphor that it has become a gestalt in and of itself.  (Look it up.)  If it has a noun and can make a word if you attach a suffix “ism” onto it, it’s worthy of analysis and criticism.  Isn’t that what ‘white racism’ is?  Totally made up with with your kids Lego blocks?  So now we try state-ism.

Equality—which is at the core of all of this—does have meaning.  But it is not a natural phenomenon, but a constructive standard.  When we construct other things—like political systems—we say that everyone should be treated equality.  We don’t say everyone should be treated equally in the natural world…how would you ever single out a person to marry or chose friends if everyone had to be equal?  But in a constructive world like politics or economics, we say that everyone is given an equal opportunity, not an equal outcome.  It is a standard to abide by, at the start as well as remedially.

The problem out there isn’t equality…it’s inequality.  Failure to meet the standard.  When the south came up with separate but equal, (Plessy v. Ferguson, 163 U.S. 537 (1896)) the issue wasn’t equality, but inequality.  When we speak of gay marriage equality, the problem isn’t equality, but that rednecks and Christians want to keep someone from equality in the right to marry.  By definition, that's inequality.

When I speak of dividing the nation, I speak only of practical economic and social solutions.  The nation is too big to share economies, and too big to understand one another.  I don’t understand rednecks.  I don’t even understand Iowans or North Dakotans.  I understand California and I understand New England because I was born there.  But on a continuum from face-to-face Greek society, to the world of abstract political society that we have in the US today, we perhaps have gone too far.

California is beautiful.  It has all the amenities I mentioned and it has a political and social climate far, far away from Kentucky, South Carolina, Florida, Georgia, Mississippi, and yes Texas.  Why shouldn’t I live in California; and why shouldn’t Californians be entitled to live far, far away from those other regions (most particularly, the south)?  I don't want Donald Trump as a choice!  I don't want to deal with anti-Hispanic, anti-black, anti-gay anti-women, anti-democracy Republicans.  Nor do I need to deal with them.  Fix them?  Yeah, right...I say leave.  It's the quickest and most passive of options.

Y’all raise the adverse effect on the poor bastards left to live in the south.  Amelioration is available if we keep the borders open to the desirable ones.  The fault is not the equality offered by the PRSA, but the inequality elsewhere.  Their bad is not our bad; but our good can be their good.  Let the PRSA be the model for the world...maybe, just maybe they will follow the example some day.

Original Quill wrote:

eddie wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:

the word youre looking for is hypocrite

Am I the only one to see it?

It's just white racism but coming from a white person!

There is no such thing as white racism.  Whites were never slaves, nor members of an outcast or non-privileged group.

There is, however, such a thing as a retrogressive racist: one who co-opts the term to counter the opposition to racism.  I think you fit quite comfortably in that role.

If you say so. I think I'm far more honest about racism than you are Quill.
You doth protest a tad too much.

eddie wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

There is no such thing as white racism.  Whites were never slaves, nor members of an outcast or non-privileged group.

There is, however, such a thing as a retrogressive racist: one who co-opts the term to counter the opposition to racism.  I think you fit quite comfortably in that role.

If you say so. I think I'm far more honest about racism than you are Quill.
You doth protest a tad too much.

I am perfectly honest. Why do you think you protest so much?

You don't like what I say (for as little as you read). Some of it is abrasive, like calling you on your 'white racist' charade. That's why we disagree at every turn; you have a lot to make up for.

Sorry what do you mean "you have a lot to make up for"?

i dont think our supposed great scholar quill is as great a scholar as he makes out to be

"Whites were never slaves"

really??

is that your revisionist history at work again or can it be that you really are ignorant of world history??

smelly-bandit wrote:i dont think our supposed great scholar quill is as great a scholar as he makes out to be

"Whites were never slaves"

really??

is that your revisionist history at work again or can it be that you really are ignorant of world history??

Let's face it, sine people are so eager to appear liberal and non-racist that they become racist to their own colour.
Seen it loads of times growing up.

Blacks people find it incredibly patronising. L

Would,love to get a couple of my black mates on here. They'd rip this shit to shreds.

Last post.
Of course many whites have ended up as slaves.
There is countless evidence of this in history.
The question to ask though is why they were taken as slaves?
Was it because they were white?
Or was it because they were Christians?
Non-Believers?
Enemy combatants?
Non-Arabs?
Or any other reason?

Think about this, because where whites were slaves under a power, there was also Asian and Black slaves also. There have been many reasons for why people why placed into slavery. So why not when I come back give your views as to what reason they were enslaved. I am not discounting white being a reason in some cases either. I would like to see who can show if and where whites have been made slaves because they were white.

We also know for a fact that whites suffer racism in Africa, so to claim whites do not suffer racism is in error.

Cheers all

smelly-bandit wrote:i dont think our supposed great scholar quill is as great a scholar as he makes out to be

Adjectives are not facts, smells.  Why waste space and our time writing them down?

smelly-bandit wrote:"Whites were never slaves"

really??

Yes, really.  Not in any social existence relevant to us.

smelly-bandit wrote:is that your revisionist history at work again or can it be that you really are ignorant of world history??

"Revisionist history?"  Is that like anti-establishment counter-revolutionary slob?  Are you trying to appear intelligent? Give it up.

What I am saying is that in a modern, western European world, only African slavery has any strong vestiges today.  That's all that is relevant.

eddie wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:i dont think our supposed great scholar quill is as great a scholar as he makes out to be

"Whites were never slaves"

really??

is that your revisionist history at work again or can it be that you really are ignorant of world history??

Let's face it, sine people are so eager to appear liberal and non-racist that they become racist to their own colour.
Seen it loads of times growing up.

Blacks people find it incredibly patronising. L

Would,love to get a couple of my black mates on here. They'd rip this shit to shreds.

well quill is charlatan

he tries to big time with his "look at me and how much i know" bollox, i know a good waffle when i see one, shit im a grand master waffler myself.

Quill waffles all the time, its a smoke and mirrors trick

if he thinks whites have never been slaves,and that is therefore a reason why whites cannot be victims of racism then he has just tripped himself up massively. It obviously means he is not as learned as he makes out

hey quill - BARBARY SLAVE TRADE, matey boy, do some research next time youre given it big licks eh??

smelly-bandit wrote:

eddie wrote:

Let's face it, sine people are so eager to appear liberal and non-racist that they become racist to their own colour.
Seen it loads of times growing up.

Blacks people find it incredibly patronising. L

Would,love to get a couple of my black mates on here. They'd rip this shit to shreds.

well quill is charlatan

he tries to big time with his "look at me and how much i know" bollox, i know a good waffle when i see one, shit im a grand master waffler myself.

Quill waffles all the time, its a smoke and mirrors trick

Wasted time and space. It’s not about me, smells. No one is interested.

smelly-bandit wrote:if he thinks whites have never been slaves,and that is therefore a reason why whites cannot be victims of racism then he has just tripped himself up massively. It obviously means he is not as learned as he makes out

hey quill - BARBARY SLAVE TRADE, matey boy, do some research next time youre given it big licks eh??

And where are the vestiges today? Thinking takes practice smells. I said relevant to today.

(erase--to say anymore would be gratuitous, and probably get me into trouble.)

well quill, if you wish to progress this discussion then you will have to clarify what criteria you are basing "relevant to today" on

Cuchulain wrote:Last post.
Of course many whites have ended up as slaves.
There is countless evidence of this in history.
The question to ask though is why they were taken as slaves?
Was it because they were white?
Or was it because they were Christians?
Non-Believers?
Enemy combatants?
Non-Arabs?
Or any other reason?

Think about this, because where whites were slaves under a power, there was also Asian and Black slaves also. There have been many reasons for why people why placed into slavery. So why not when I come back give your views as to what reason they were enslaved. I am not discounting white being a reason in some cases either. I would like to see who can show if and where whites have been made slaves because they were white.

We also know for a fact that whites suffer racism in Africa, so to claim whites do not suffer racism is in error.

Cheers all

Didge, you are smarter than smells.  Don’t fall for the same idiocy.

There is no slavery that exists, relevant to the US today...I daresay, to the entirety of western Europe.

The only racism extant today in the US is that of African-American racism in the deep south of the USA, which originated from British slavery practices.  Perhaps you can find pockets of racism in Africa, Asia or elsewhere, but that is not predominant in the US.  Nor does it predominate in western Europe.

We can talk about anthropology another time.  Love to…but on this thread we need a little grounding.  We are talking about a racist, southern police system that disenfranchises a black man.  In the US, as in the modern western European environment, there is no such thing as ‘white racism’.  It has no meaning because there is no history of it.

Wow, I'm coming into this discussion really late and saw I was mentioned a few times, but I think segregation on the basis of anything is really unhealthy.

And let's not forget the infamous murders, beatings, rapes, etc. committed by the LAPD and NYPD. These forces in the supposed bastions of American civilization have proven over the years that they can be just as racist and brutal as any Southern force.

It should also be remembered that over 3 million Texans voted for Obama in 2012. Texas is one of the most balanced states in terms of support between Democrats and Republicans; the GOP advantage here is primarily one of organization and mobilization, not a numbers advantage.

Ben_Reilly wrote:Wow, I'm coming into this discussion really late and saw I was mentioned a few times, but I think segregation on the basis of anything is really unhealthy.

And let's not forget the infamous murders, beatings, rapes, etc. committed by the LAPD and NYPD. These forces in the supposed bastions of American civilization have proven over the years that they can be just as racist and brutal as any Southern force.

It should also be remembered that over 3 million Texans voted for Obama in 2012. Texas is one of the most balanced states in terms of support between Democrats and Republicans; the GOP advantage here is primarily one of organization and mobilization, not a numbers advantage.

really unhealthy,but surely there is some segregation that is worse than others

for example race segregation is far far worse than sex segregation, no???

smelly-bandit wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:Wow, I'm coming into this discussion really late and saw I was mentioned a few times, but I think segregation on the basis of anything is really unhealthy.

And let's not forget the infamous murders, beatings, rapes, etc. committed by the LAPD and NYPD. These forces in the supposed bastions of American civilization have proven over the years that they can be just as racist and brutal as any Southern force.

It should also be remembered that over 3 million Texans voted for Obama in 2012. Texas is one of the most balanced states in terms of support between Democrats and Republicans; the GOP advantage here is primarily one of organization and mobilization, not a numbers advantage.

really unhealthy,but surely there is some segregation that is worse than others

for example race segregation is far far worse than sex segregation, no???

Well, those are so different in the typical application that I don't think you can really compare them. But I don't like segregation of any type -- race, gender, income, nationality, etc. Of course, immigrant communities do form their own "Little Armenias" and whatnot but I think that's more like a crutch that helps them cope with being in a different country.

Ben_Reilly wrote:Wow, I'm coming into this discussion really late and saw I was mentioned a few times, but I think segregation on the basis of anything is really unhealthy.

And let's not forget the infamous murders, beatings, rapes, etc. committed by the LAPD and NYPD. These forces in the supposed bastions of American civilization have proven over the years that they can be just as racist and brutal as any Southern force.

It should also be remembered that over 3 million Texans voted for Obama in 2012. Texas is one of the most balanced states in terms of support between Democrats and Republicans; the GOP advantage here is primarily one of organization and mobilization, not a numbers advantage.

I share your enthusiasm for southerners who have contributed, and are yet to contribute to a bright and healthy future.  But you cannot generalize from specifics.  In the main, southerners have a deep and profound problem.  I love Wendy Davis over every female politician in the nation; but you can't generalize from specifics.  

Southerners have a deep and abiding racism and a wish to secede from the US.  The Republican Party--one of the two central parties in the nation--has chosen to sink it's roots in that part of the soil.  Can we look at the leading Republican candidate, Donald Trump, and not be appalled?  Isn't this the party of voter restriction--hoping to keep out blacks--of restrictions on women's rights; of anti-immigration, hoping to hold back Hispanic citizens?

What I am suggesting is that we take advantage of several natural boundaries, geographic as well as ideological: the South from the right-thinking west and northeast.  The Democrats from the Republicans.  We can hardly pull ourselves up by our bootstraps; but we can take advantage of some natural cleavages that exist, and spin a wheel that is already moving.

If southerners wanted to secede, we might be smarter going along with it.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

smelly-bandit wrote:

really unhealthy,but surely there is some segregation that is worse than others

for example race segregation is far far worse than sex segregation, no???

Well, those are so different in the typical application that I don't think you can really compare them. But I don't like segregation of any type -- race, gender, income, nationality, etc. Of course, immigrant communities do form their own "Little Armenias" and whatnot but I think that's more like a crutch that helps them cope with being in a different country.

wow

ever the apologist eh?? oh yeah and hypocrite

hates segregation when its from the top down but is willing to tolerate when its bottom up and self imposed (but not if youre white)

quill are we getting back to the slavery issue?? or have you realised whats happening???

smelly-bandit wrote:quill are we getting back to the slavery issue?? or have you realised whats happening???

You'll have to be more specific...I don't assume.

I do think that Harris County, TX, is a den of racists. Certainly their law enforcement is racist. Racism in the US is a direct result of British slavery and the institutions that were set up to facilitate it. They are present vestiges of past slavery and discrimination.

Have we ever left the topic?

WE didn't do anything

YOU left

You said that only black slavery had relevance to today

I asked for clarification on what you were basing "relevance to today" on??

Second time I've asked by the way

Perhaps I'm not as clever when it's comes to history, but isn't this white slavery...or am I reading it wrong?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-irish-slave-trade-the-forgotten-white-slaves/31076

eddie wrote:Perhaps I'm not as clever when it's comes to history, but isn't this white slavery...or am I reading it wrong?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-irish-slave-trade-the-forgotten-white-slaves/31076

The Irish indentureds were an interesting, but small part of the American slave trade.  But they were and are a great part of modern racism.

They were "Australians," before OZ assumed the role of the prison farm.  But because the slave trade was really Africa-to-America, and because the Irish shared a common race and language with the British landowners, the Irish were made the 'straw-bosses' in the plantations and farms.  They were the foremen who whipped the slaves and forced them to work.  The Irish were early on made freemen, and didn't have skin color to stigmatize them.  They joined with the Scots to form a class of whites in between rich landholders and slaves.

The Scots-Irish populated regions from the Ohio Valley, south through the Appalachians and into Georgia, Alabama and Mississippi.  They are the hayseeds and hicks and yokels that we know of today as hillbillies...modernly, they are often referred to as white trash and trailer-park divas.  Because they didn't own land, and worked and slept in the fields--albeit, as bosses and foremen--they were called rednecks.  Because their diets were of cracked corn (hominy grits and such), they also were called crackers.  We know of their music, coming straight from Ireland, as being country dance, and Ohio River ballads, passed down through the likes of Joan Baez and Woody Guthrie.  Their music today is known as Country & Western.  

Last, but not least, sadly they were the original racists and KK Klansmen of America.  Because of their prior indentured status, and because of their economic status, they went over backwards to distinguish themselves from their black counterparts.  They are the source of the hatred, found in American racism, but oddly missing in other post-slavery societies.  They went to great pains to curry the hatred, in order to set the boundary between themselves and blacks.

Their ranks have thinned, but we still see them driving pick-up trucks with a gun in the rack, over the back window. Because they were the sweat and labor of the Confederates of the Civil War, they are today staunch supporters of 2nd Amendment rights, and gun ownership. You know them; you just didn't know where the come from.

Original Quill wrote:

eddie wrote:Perhaps I'm not as clever when it's comes to history, but isn't this white slavery...or am I reading it wrong?

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-irish-slave-trade-the-forgotten-white-slaves/31076

The Irish indentureds were an interesting, but small part of the American slave trade.  Because the slave trade was African to America, and because the Irish shared a common race and language with the British landowners, the Irish were made the 'straw-bosses' in the plantations and farms.  The Irish were eventually freed and joined with the Scots to form a class of whites in between rich landholders and slaves.  They populated regions from the Ohio Valley, south through the Appalachians and into Georgia, Alabama and Mississippi.  They are the hayseeds and hicks and yokels, that we know of today as hillbillies. Because they didn't own land, and worked and slept in the fields--albeit, as bosses and foremen--they were called rednecks.  Because their diets were of cracked corn (hominy and such), they also were called crackers.  We know of their music as being country dance, and Ohio River ballads, passed down through the likes of Joan Baez and Woody Guthrie.  They were Australians, before OZ became the prison farm.

Last, but not least, they were the original racists and KK Klansmen of America.  Because of their prior indentured status, and because of their economic status, they went over backwards to distinguish themselves from their black counterparts.  They are the source of the hatred, found in American racism, but oddly missing in other post-slavery societies.  They went to great pains to curry the hatred, in order to set the boundary between themselves and blacks.

Your ability to know your own history is appalling.
The fact is white racism has a long history in your own country and in the Uk and one of these white groups that received racism was the Irish. They are not the only white group to suffer white racism.
In the Uk the Irish were referred to as the White Negroes.
They were not classed as white and were seen as inferior by the British . Thus if they are seen as inferior that is racism, plain and simple and its white racism at that because they are being denied equality and not even recognized as white.

The same happened in the US with Irish immigrants who were characterized as racial Others, and were placed very much on a par with Blacks in America, where the Irish had to fight for their to be even defined as white which took decades. Here is just an example on the history:



Once in the U.S., the Irish were to negative stereotyping that was very similar to that of enslaved Africans and African Americans. The comic Irishman – happy, lazy, stupid, with a gift for music and dance – was a stock character in American theater.   Drunkenness and criminality were major themes of Irish stereotypes, and the term “paddy wagon” has its etymological roots in the racist term “paddy,” a shortening of the name “Patrick,” which was used to refer to the Irish.   However, this is also a gendered image and refers to Irish men, specifically.   The masculine imagery of “paddy” hides the existence of Irish women, but did not protect Irish women from racism as they were often more exposed to such racism through domestic jobs.   Women typically played a key role in maintaining Catholic adherence, which resonates closely with Irishness and difference. The “model minority” (if you will) stereotype of Irish-American women is of a “Bridget,” recognized for her hard work and contribution to Irish upward class mobility.


So do not even attempt to patronize me about what I know and understand about racism, when I have spent a greater part of my life understanding this. Now the vast majority of racism stems from whites but it is also found with many ethnic groups of which there is countless evidence throughout history. Now I agree that the slavery of whites by the Arabs does not appear to be racial as they enslaved many non-Muslims no matter their ethnic group, but the there is definitely again white racism being played out. The Arabs saw themselves as superior to others based on the claim to the last define message being in Arabic. So the Arabs saw themselves as the elite Caucasians, which is why we cannot rule out white racism in this regard. Now the vast majority of white racism has stemmed from other whites who do not accept that ethnic groups as white, but you also find racism today in Africa.


So you are in era in regards to racism but slavery also in how whites ethnic groups were deligitimized from being seen as white. In the British Isle this had been going on for centuries. Most racism itself stems from religion, which the very first recorded racism is found in the Bible where the Israelite's are elevated about all other humans. So if you want to look to the root cause of all further racism and why Blacks suffer appalling with slavery, it all stems from the bible and where those racist saw themselves as the chosen people. Nobody is denying that the vast majority of racism is felt most by blacks and Asians in the west, but in the east there is countless racism against other ethnic groups. The Japanese in WW2 were on a par with Nazi Germany in how they were very racist against white Europeans and other Asians. So you are stuck in a circle just centering on the US, where within the US white ethnic groups suffered white racism

Didge wrote:So do not even attempt to patronize me about what I know and understand about racism, when I have spent a greater part of my life understanding this.

Whoa, I didn’t even know I was talking to you, let alone patronizing you.  I suggest you re-read my post, as you quoted only about half of it in your hasty response.  Much of what you questioned, I have already answered.

The original Scots-Irish had little to do with the late-18th-century potato famine Irish.  The latter are the migrants that populated center cities like Boston, and NYC, after America was largely urbanized.  The original Scots-Irish were actually a 17th-century phenomenon, as eds pointed out, associated more with the Stuarts, and notably also, William III.  The ethnic Irish were and are a different phenomenon.

Had you studied in an American university (and of course, why would you), you would be familiar with the history of migrations into the US.  For the most part, all of them melted in…leading to the notion of the ‘melting-pot’ thesis.

Sadly, because of their skin color, the blacks have never fit in as did the other migrants.  That is the tragedy of racism, and what distinguishes America from any other post-slavery society.

The 17th-century Scots-Irish fit into this history in a heinous way.  To repeat, because of their own lack of self-esteem, and their manifest lack of status, despite their white skin, they pushed racism as a defining barrier between themselves and blacks.  That push permanently ingrained racism into the American mind, and led to many other consequences: a division between the North and South of America, to the Civil War, and it led to such characteristics as gun enthusiasts, pick-up trucks and trailer-parks.

If you want to know who the white trash are, you’re lookin’ at ‘em.  They are the Republican crackers and rednecks you guys so often pounce on.  They are the Kellys and McCowns and Brummels you run into down at the bar...drunk, three teeth missing in front, and needing a shave and a clean shirt. Spouting racial epithets and cursing that n---er president we have in Washington.

Yes, they are second-class citizens.  My sentiment would ordinarily go out to them, but I just don’t have room to pity them right now, as they use blacks as stepping stones in society.

Not good enough Quill, I have shown you are in error on the history of racism. Nothing above e refutes any of my points, they are mainly your opinion. Irish and other white groups did suffer white racism, so its a fact that white racism has existed and still exist to this day. You are now getting very emotive making views onto me as if I do not understand racism and its history when I most certainly do. I am not downgrading the fact blacks have suffered appalling in the US, this is not my point. The point was to show racism towards white groups, which as seen it has happened to white groups and one of the best examples is the Iris in both the US and Britain. I am very on board to your points that whites suffer no where near such discrimination compared to blacks or Asians, where in the West whites are very much privileged and advantaged. That is not my point as I agree on that and I agree there is still a huge issue with how blacks are very badly stereotyped in the US and discriminated. Where there is some states that have still not recognized that the Confederacy surrendered. So I am completely on board with you in that regard and the issues face by blacks, but you are in error on white racism. No where near as bad as black racism, but it has existed for a long time.,

I have proven that you were very much in error on white racism. of which there is a long history of where it all stems from whites
Now if you chose not to accept the facts, that is your choice but there is nothing you can say or produce that can rebuke my evidence. Hence I have no need to exhaust or debate further on whether white racism and white slaver existed. They did.


What is questionable is in regards to whites enslaved and how much if any race played a part in them being enslaved hence my original points.

Of course many whites have ended up as slaves.
There is countless evidence of this in history.
The question to ask though is why they were taken as slaves?
Was it because they were white?
Or was it because they were Christians?
Non-Believers?
Enemy combatants?
Non-Arabs?
Or any other reason?

Think about this, because where whites were slaves under a power, there was also Asian and Black slaves also. There have been many reasons for why people why placed into slavery. So why not when I come back give your views as to what reason they were enslaved. I am not discounting white being a reason in some cases either. I would like to see who can show if and where whites have been made slaves because they were white.

Catch you later Quill