Black taxi demonstration message to TFL: you are Totally Failing London!

First topic message reminder :

This hasn't made the news (yet!) but hopefully it will.

There's a Black Taxi Demo today, in London, which I'll be attending, sending a clear message to Transport For London:

Enforce your regulations so that black taxis have a clear and fair playing field.

Boris Johnson has Totally Fucked London over.
Does it help his half-brother works for Goldman-Sachs who have a massive share in Uber?

Please read this and if you're on Twitter please post #savetaxi

http://taxileaks.blogspot.co.uk/2015/06/a-message-from-savetaxi-founder-artemis.html

Wish me luck!!

Well look, the good thing about black cabs is that you can come out of a pub and flag one down, yes?

That's what it was like when I lived in London. People didn't have access to the internet via mobile phones then - in fact, I don't think many people had mobile phones. If you wanted to book a taxi, you had to ring for one from a public phone or whatever, so flagging a black cab down outside was a good option. Nowadays, people can just sit in a pub and book a taxi without moving from their table, so they're going to do it, especially if it's cheaper.

Unless these people are breaking the law, the only way to save black cabs is to convince the customers that it's better to get one than go via Uber.

Rags you're not understanding what this is about I'm afraid.
It's about TFL not enforcing the same restrictions on uber as they do every other PH company

Uber break the law every single day; they tout at the side of the roads, they pull in front of black taxis and take jobs (if the people are stupid enough to get in) not to mention various other criminal activities.

There are some school boys on my son's school who've managed to hack private uber accounts and are using the cars to get around. The boys are openly admitting that they're doing this and that the drivers are aware but don't care as long as they're paid.
The drivers are aware that these school boys are using other people's accounts to pay them and they are willingly according the money.

TFL have been made aware and continue to allow these drivers to trade.
TFL have been made aware that the drivers are privately touting for business and they allow these drivers to trade.

This is despite having the drivers' reg numbers and uber numbers.

Raggamuffin wrote:Well look, the good thing about black cabs is that you can come out of a pub and flag one down, yes?

That's what it was like when I lived in London. People didn't have access to the internet via mobile phones then - in fact, I don't think many people had mobile phones. If you wanted to book a taxi, you had to ring for one from a public phone or whatever, so flagging a black cab down outside was a good option. Nowadays, people can just sit in a pub and book a taxi without moving from their table, so they're going to do it, especially if it's cheaper.

Unless these people are breaking the law, the only way to save black cabs is to convince the customers that it's better to get one than go via Uber.

There are cab apps too,and it's it cheaper because the uber drivers haven't done the knowledge and use sat navs - which are not really ever the shortest route

But this isn't about uber! It's about TFL!!!

Please read the links I've provided

Perhaps this will explain it:

https://i.servimg.com/u/f18/19/26/50/57/image14.jpg

eddie wrote:Rags you're not understanding what this is about I'm afraid.
It's about TFL not enforcing the same restrictions on uber as they do every other PH company

Uber break the law every single day; they tout at the side of the roads, they pull in front of black taxis and take jobs (if the people are stupid enough to get in) not to mention various other criminal activities.

There are some school boys on my son's school who've managed to hack private uber accounts and are using the cars to get around. The boys are openly admitting that they're doing this and that the drivers are aware but don't care as long as they're paid.
The drivers are aware that these school boys are using other people's accounts to pay them and they are willingly according the money.

TFL have been made aware and continue to allow these drivers to trade.
TFL have been made aware that the drivers are privately touting for business and they allow these drivers to trade.

This is despite having the drivers' reg numbers and uber numbers.

I do understand what it's about. It's about black cab drivers not wanting anyone else to muscle in on their trade, and trying to get Uber taxis off the road by accusing them of breaking the law and hoping that TFL will enforce restrictions. I'm not unsympathetic eddie, but as far as I can see, the main legal challenge seems to be regarding the use of meters.

Sure, they can prosecute anyone touting for business as you described, they can prosecute someone for not having a license, but Uber will just say that they're not responsible - they're just a go-between who are connecting customers with the drivers.

eddie wrote:Perhaps this will explain it:

https://i.servimg.com/u/f18/19/26/50/57/image14.jpg

OK, so what those people are saying is that black cab drivers are much more restricted, and that it's not fair. I'm afraid that black cab drivers are the victims of "progress", like a lot of people - progress in the form of mobile phone apps and access to the internet. You get winners and you get losers with all "progress".

They go on to say that Uber do not have a landline number, office, or carry out pre-bookings. Is that actually against the law? If a taxi touts for business in the street, Uber will just say that they didn't go through them, so it's not their responsibility.

Are you saying that there should be more regulations regarding private car hire or that the existing regulations are not being enforced. If it's the latter, how do you police it?

How about Uber have to abide by the same laws as the black cabs?

sassy wrote:How about Uber have to abide by the same laws as the black cabs?

Well private taxi firms don't, do they? Why is it just Uber in the firing line?

So there are two main issues:

The first is whether using a smartphone is the same as having a taxi meter, and the second is whether or not Uber is a properly licensed company in that they are the receiver of bookings, as opposed to the individual drivers being the receiver of bookings. If it's the latter, each driver needs to be licensed.

http://www.wired.co.uk/news/archive/2014-05/09/london-taxis-uber-tfl

Black taxis have to go through rigourous exams and learning to know their trade, they are licensed and reliable and will not rip you off as its meter-logged.
They have a fantastic reputation in the main.

They've always worked very nicely alongside Addison Lee a PH hire company as Addson Lee are reputable, CRB checked and abide by TFL regulations and standard procedures plus, they are respectful to Black cabs and don't cut in front of them and take their work illegally.

Uber are a quick and dubious money-spinner for fat cats and greedy Cameron.

It's the whole corruption that sucks.

well all these migrants have to do SOMETHING I guess

eddie wrote:Black taxis have to go through rigourous exams and learning to know their trade, they are licensed and reliable and will not rip you off as its meter-logged.
They have a fantastic reputation in the main.

They've always worked very nicely alongside Addison Lee a PH hire company as Addson Lee are reputable, CRB checked and abide by TFL regulations and standard procedures plus, they are respectful to Black cabs and don't cut in front of them and take their work illegally.

Uber are a quick and dubious money-spinner for fat cats and greedy Cameron.

It's the whole corruption that sucks.

I'm not disputing the first part of your post eddie, but how is Uber making money for fat cats and Cameron?

It seems that so far nobody has been able to prove that Uber are acting illegally. If legal challenges fail, the black cab drivers will have deal with it another way

I think that black cab drivers have to be honest about their objection to Uber. Are they genuinely concerned for customer safety, or are they concerned about losing their livelihood? If it's the latter, there's nothing wrong with that - it's perfectly natural to want to protect your source of income and your job. However, complaining about that won't help them because competition is perfectly legal.

Think about shop owners who feel that their business has been affected by online shopping - companies like Amazon. They have no legal grounds to complain. The only way they can counter the competition is to convince the public that buying from their shop is better.

This is what black cab drivers will have to do. They can try to convince the public that it's safer to get a black cab, that it's convenient, or that it's quicker because they know where they're going. They could even appeal to people's sense of tradition.

TFL are not abiding by their own rules In regards to uber - I've provided the links

And there are many many stories about uber drivers breaking the law - one recently as today in the U.S.

Google it

eddie wrote:TFL are not abiding by their own rules In regards to uber - I've provided the links

And there are many many stories about uber drivers breaking the law - one recently as today in the U.S.

Google it

I have googled it. I cannot find any proof that Uber are breaking the law. The drivers might be, but is that the same as Uber breaking the law?

The drivers are breaking the law and Uber - the company - are not adding by the moral law Rags.
They employ, knowingly and willingly, drivers that aren't CRB checked in this country they also know that these drivers "lend" their licences to thier brothers/uncles/others
They also know that there have been many reported incidences of drivers ripping off punters and stealing credit card info and just recently, some schoolboys hacked an uber account and used it to get around on (the drivers told the boys they weren't bothered and their bosses also knew but as long as they were paid....)

I know this because my friends son has been grounded by her for being one of the boys.
Yes she reported it to the police but couldn't get hold of Uber because there's no contact number

eddie wrote:The drivers are breaking the law and Uber - the company - are not adding by the moral law Rags.
They employ, knowingly and willingly, drivers that aren't CRB checked in this country they also know that these drivers "lend" their licences to thier brothers/uncles/others
They also know that there have been many reported incidences of drivers ripping off punters and stealing credit card info and just recently, some schoolboys hacked an uber account and used it to get around on (the drivers told the boys they weren't bothered and their bosses also knew but as long as they were paid....)

I know this because my friends son has been grounded by her for being one of the boys.

Ah, moral law. That's a different thing isn't it? The drivers could say that the black cab drivers are trying to take away their livelihood as well.

If any of that can be proved, then black cab drivers could make the public aware of it. If they can't, they could be in trouble.

If there are enough proven incidents, and no way to hold the company accountable, there might be a case to regulate them more though, or even close them down if it's considered a danger to the public.

Rags people have been shouting it from the rooftops - Facebook, Twitter, reports to the police, letters to MP's, letters to Boris, letters and demonstrations to TFL!!!

NOTHING IS BEING DONE!! That's my whole point!!!

Why do you think every country that has or had uber is up in arms and demonstrating and in the case of France, burning cars??!!!

Why do you think taxis all over the world are saying all this????
Why do you think some countries (sensible ones that care about their country) have BANNED uber???

eddie wrote:Rags people have been shouting it from the rooftops - Facebook, Twitter, reports to the police, letters to MP's, letters to Boris, letters and demonstrations to TFL!!!

NOTHING IS BEING DONE!! That's my whole point!!!

Why do you think every country that has or had uber is up in arms and demonstrating and in the case of France, burning cars??!!!

Why do you think taxis all over the world are saying all this????
Why do you think some countries (sensible ones that care about their country) have BANNED uber???

Some have banned it, and it seems to be because of licensing issues. Perhaps the laws are different in those countries.

Yes it's a biased source, but still, it explains it best:

https://davidcabbie75.wordpress.com/2015/06/02/ubers-illegality-in-london/

Me again eddie.

I know that my posts in this thread are irritating you, but I'm not an expert in the law regarding taxis, so maybe I just need to have it spelt out to me how Uber are breaking the law.

For example, from that link you posted:

2, Any booking should go through an office based in London.

ubers bookings go from the phone directly to the driver.

Is it actual law that bookings must go through an office?

Raggs, can I make a teeny suggestion.  I expect Eddie is very stressed about all this and you have a computer sitting in front of you.  Why don't you look up the rules and regulations for taxis and do your own research?

sassy wrote:Raggs, can I make a teeny suggestion.  I expect Eddie is very stressed about all this and you have a computer sitting in front of you.  Why don't you look up the rules and regulations for taxis and do your own research?

I've already done that, which is why I can't find anything to say they're acting illegally. I'm asking eddie because she understands it better.

Rags I'm not up to scratch on laws but I know that a hell of a lot if taxi drivers and their lawyers do know the law and TFL aren't playing by the same rules as they apply to other PH companies.
Added to that fact, they don't do anything about the dubious activities that some Uber drivers get up to.

@ sassy - it is a bit stressful at the moment, as you can appreciate, but I'm sure rags is just curious and it took a while for me to get my head round some of it.
I still don't get a lot of the ins and outs!

eddie wrote:Rags I'm not up to scratch on laws but I know that a hell of a lot if taxi drivers and their lawyers do know the law and TFL aren't playing by the same rules as they apply to other PH companies.
Added to that fact, they don't do anything about the dubious activities that some Uber drivers get up to.

@ sassy - it is a bit stressful at the moment, as you can appreciate, but I'm sure rags is just curious and it took a while for me to get my head round some of it.
I still don't get a lot of the ins and outs!

Thanks eddie. I didn't know any of this before you started this thread, so I'm starting from scratch really. It's just a bit confusing what with UberPop, UberX, and UberPool, etc.

Anyway, I gather there's a legal hearing in October, so good luck.

Raggamuffin wrote:

eddie wrote:Rags I'm not up to scratch on laws but I know that a hell of a lot if taxi drivers and their lawyers do know the law and TFL aren't playing by the same rules as they apply to other PH companies.
Added to that fact, they don't do anything about the dubious activities that some Uber drivers get up to.

@ sassy - it is a bit stressful at the moment, as you can appreciate, but I'm sure rags is just curious and it took a while for me to get my head round some of it.
I still don't get a lot of the ins and outs!

Thanks eddie. I didn't know any of this before you started this thread, so I'm starting from scratch really. It's just a bit confusing what with UberPop, UberX, and UberPool, etc.

Anyway, I gather there's a legal hearing in October, so good luck.

Thanks rags x

Really though, I am member of the movement that demonstrated and have had lots of talks with drivers who really know tons of stuff I've Read lots of letters to MP's etc and I still find a lot of legal stuff goes whoosh over my head.

It sounds like a lot of Uber drivers aren't very happy either. There have been legal challenges to determine whether they're employees or contractors. They get more employment rights if they're employees.

Raggamuffin wrote:It sounds like a lot of Uber drivers aren't very happy either. There have been legal challenges to determine whether they're employees or contractors. They get more employment rights if they're employees.  

They're treated like shit they have to pay 20% of their earnings to the uber company.

Having said that, there are some very bad seeds who are driving the cars.

eddie wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:It sounds like a lot of Uber drivers aren't very happy either. There have been legal challenges to determine whether they're employees or contractors. They get more employment rights if they're employees.  

They're treated like shit they have to pay 20% of their earnings to the uber company.

Having said that, there are some very bad seeds who are driving the cars.

I read that payment goes straight to Uber so I suppose it's like an agency taking its cut before they pay the employee/contractor, which is fair enough.

eddie wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:It sounds like a lot of Uber drivers aren't very happy either. There have been legal challenges to determine whether they're employees or contractors. They get more employment rights if they're employees.  

They're treated like shit they have to pay 20% of their earnings to the uber company.

Having said that, there are some very bad seeds who are driving the cars.

Uber taxi 's went live in Liverpool tonight. They are licenced by Sefton Council but apparently can operate across merseyside. They report 25,000 people have downloaded the app in Liverpool

Nems wrote:

eddie wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:It sounds like a lot of Uber drivers aren't very happy either. There have been legal challenges to determine whether they're employees or contractors. They get more employment rights if they're employees.  

They're treated like shit they have to pay 20% of their earnings to the uber company.

Having said that, there are some very bad seeds who are driving the cars.

Uber taxi 's went live in Liverpool tonight. They are licenced by Sefton Council but apparently can operate across merseyside. They report 25,000 people have downloaded the app in Liverpool

Well it'll stop alot of those drivers coming to London then! There are loads of uber drivers travelling to London from Liverpool and Birmingham and Manchester, to work.
They work around the clock and drive home.

Don't use one nems, or any teens you know.
Although the driver is insured if they have an accident, the passenger is not.

Oh well, I won't be using Uber because I don't have a smartphone and apps and all that nonsense.

Raggamuffin wrote:Oh well, I won't be using Uber because I don't have a smartphone and apps and all that nonsense.

And cos Edda will do this

eddie wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Oh well, I won't be using Uber because I don't have a smartphone and apps and all that nonsense.

And cos Edda will do this

Well yes, that as well.

eddie wrote:

Nems wrote:

Uber taxi 's went live in Liverpool tonight. They are licenced by Sefton Council but apparently can operate across merseyside. They report 25,000 people have downloaded the app in Liverpool

Well it'll stop alot of those drivers coming to London then! There are loads of uber drivers travelling to London from Liverpool and Birmingham and Manchester, to work.
They work around the clock and drive home.

Don't use one nems, or any teens you know.
Although the driver is insured if they have an accident, the passenger is not.

I wouldn't not in a million. The one I use text you the car details etc. or if I'm in town it's a black cab everytime.

Well I got my email about supporting the cause but it looks like more needs to be done.



Edinburgh taxi companies put out a note of warning about private hire taxis after a sexual assault took place.

'Most of you will be aware of the recent incident in which a woman got into a car she thought was a private hire car and was sexually assaulted. Knowing the difference between a taxi and a private hire vehicle could be paramount to your safety.

If you’ve ever travelled in a taxi or private hire car or plan to do so in the future then we recommend becoming familiar with the differences and risks involved if the correct procedures are not followed.'

http://www.citycabs.co.uk/news/general/taxis-and-private-hire

Beware.

All bookings made for a private hire taxi must go through a registered office with premises in the area in which they operate. The regulations are quite clear on this in that no private taxi can be hailed down or a booking made directly with the driver of a private hire taxi.
If the regulations are changing on this then I can understand the concerns that people have because it's pretty easy to make a mistake as witnessed in what happened to a woman in Edinburgh.
Here's the regulations as they stand at the moment for a Private hire operator licence to be granted by TFL.

https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/taxis-and-private-hire/become-a-private-hire-licensee/private-hire-operator-licence

Thanks for the links Irn x
And if you're ever in London, flag a black taxi and get to your destination safely x