daily devotional to set up atheists for the day

First topic message reminder :

The beauty of science is that it does not claim to know the answers before it asks the questions. There is nothing wrong with not knowing. It means there is more to learn, and as I have said before, ignorance bothers me far less than the illusion of knowledge. –

Lawrence Krauss

Ben_Reilly wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:i don't like the idea of good and bad i prefer the idea of kind or cruel as they apply to a singular action of/toward an individual

good and bad are too all encompassing.

that it is wrong to do personal or material harm to another person, unless that's required to stop them from doing the same.

what if both are going to do material harm? finite resources means that 2 can have equal claim but only one can have it  

Well, that's why we have societies that can intervene in cases like that and judge what to do.

But our society judges it is alright to do horrible things if it profitable to do so, literally Our society is the worst in the above situation it more often than not decides the person with excessive amounts gets the resource while the poverty stricken starve.

So to stardesk question NO
the majority does not in anyway imply rightness.

Case in point almost every Human society to ever have existed.
None are 'Right' because that is just perspective, it is wrong to steal but we allow corporation to do it. So if someone steals from a corporation are they wrong or just getting even. Our laws are not and never been about what is good and just they have been about allowing greater order and control for the maximization of profit this has been the case since ancient Rome.

really Taoism hold the answers for right/wrong, things are neither/both depending on where you look from.

stardesk wrote:Morning Ben. Quoting your paragraph from above: 'The left believe in societies set up to allow the greatest happiness to the greatest number, while the "true" right believes in a fairly rigid social order of leaders and followers, and that happiness comes from accepting your "place."

I cannot help but believe the 'Right' their strictness and (dare I say) self importance, is not condusive to a free, democratic and liberal society. Liberal as in free actions, not political. Providing people live within the law then that surely should help society forward to a happy and fulfilled life and society, providing of course they have the means to live a fulfilled life, but then, is money the answer to a fulfilled life? Yes it goes a long way to providing life's comforts and a well stocked cupboard and freezer, but self-fulfilment comes from within the individual. He/she must at times sit back and contemplate who and what they are, what interests them, how best to bring out those interests into their daily lives. Self-fulfilment leads to a happier person, which leads to a more sociable, amenable person, which is good for the community and society.

Enough for a while. Catch you soon.

I agree with much of what you said. Money is only important to the point that it provides dignity, which is the limit to most people's desires (most of us don't care enough about riches or fame to do the insane things rich and famous people do to attain them).

This can easily exist in a nominally conservative society, at least in the economic sense. If capitalists realized the importance of labor and the importance of the role they play in enabling people to work for their living, welfare wouldn't necessarily have to be very extensive.

The problem today is that so many capitalists aren't looking to employ anyone so much as exploit them. A simple change in attitude would go a long way -- it's often been noted that America's biggest corporations in the 1950s and '60s paid workers in a manner that allowed them to achieve the modest dream of owning a home, a car, some creature comforts and the ability to splurge on a vacation or two per year. Most people just want stability and the occasional adventure, really.

veya_victaous wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:i don't like the idea of good and bad i prefer the idea of kind or cruel as they apply to a singular action of/toward an individual

good and bad are too all encompassing.

that it is wrong to do personal or material harm to another person, unless that's required to stop them from doing the same.

what if both are going to do material harm? finite resources means that 2 can have equal claim but only one can have it  

Well, that's why we have societies that can intervene in cases like that and judge what to do.

But our society judges it is alright to do horrible things if it profitable to do so, literally Our society is the worst in the above situation it more often than not decides the person with excessive amounts gets the resource while the poverty stricken starve.

So to stardesk question NO
the majority does not in anyway imply rightness.

Case in point almost every Human society to ever have existed.
None are 'Right' because that is just perspective, it is wrong to steal but we allow corporation to do it. So if someone steals from a corporation are they wrong or just getting even. Our laws are not and never been about what is good and just they have been about allowing greater order and control for the maximization of profit this has been the case since ancient Rome.

really Taoism hold the answers for right/wrong, things are neither/both depending on where you look from.

I still think that in most cases, with reasonable people handling the task, disputes can be resolved equitably. Yes, we do need to move the law and authority itself away from protecting and enabling those in power and the wealthy, but it seems to me that society has more or less continuously progressed toward that over the past 150 years or so. I think when humanity in general deemed slavery immoral, it took a bigger step than it probably thought

As Didge points out in the ISIS thread
we could lose it all so easily to short sighted cowards, we cannot assume a constant progression it has taken generation working upon the last to achieve the gains we have and they could easily be taken away in one foul swoop.

“Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
― Benjamin Franklin

veya_victaous wrote:As Didge points out in the ISIS thread
we could lose it all so easily to short sighted cowards, we cannot assume a constant progression it has taken generation working upon the last to achieve the gains we have and they could easily be taken away in one foul swoop.

“Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
― Benjamin Franklin

It definitely can't be assumed, that's a very good point. But education is on the rise pretty much globally, people believe in its value, and from my personal viewpoint, the emerging generation of young adults has the situation pretty well figured out In my country, the pace of social progress has been so rapid that I often find myself stunned, in a very good way.

Ben_Reilly wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:As Didge points out in the ISIS thread
we could lose it all so easily to short sighted cowards, we cannot assume a constant progression it has taken generation working upon the last to achieve the gains we have and they could easily be taken away in one foul swoop.

“Those who surrender freedom for security will not have, nor do they deserve, either one.”
― Benjamin Franklin

It definitely can't be assumed, that's a very good point. But education is on the rise pretty much globally, people believe in its value, and from my personal viewpoint, the emerging generation of young adults has the situation pretty well figured out In my country, the pace of social progress has been so rapid that I often find myself stunned, in a very good way.

Yes but there is still time for old fools to stop them

I was actually discussing this with one of my Colleagues at lunch
we have made social progress on the left but the right has made 'progress' toward corporate oligarchy and the Left never gets rid of it. we do things around the outside but we never take back what has been stolen.

all our Rights will be meaning less if Corporate desire mean more than Democratic Gov't
I think we are distracted by the side show

I think the two are inexorably linked, and that after you get enough people agreeing on social justice, issues of oligarchy will start to tumble as well. A lot of the super-wealthy already find themselves confounded by their children, who openly question the justice of them being born so well-off while so many more are suffering.

That's the long war, though -- but I think we're winning that too, regardless of how individual battles turn out.

Morning all. First of all I'd like to comment on something Veya said in reply to what I said about society. And quoting you Veya: 'So to stardesk question NO the majority does not in anyway imply rightness.'

You may be right, Veya, but some minorities are not condusive to a free, happy, progressive society. Obviously I use ISIS to emphasize that point. Our Western cultures are condusive to a free and liberal society, where, living within the law and having the means for a comfortable home, we are not only materially free but also mentally. We have choices and opportunities to enhance our lives. If I'm fulfilled that makes me more sociable, friendly and helpful.

I think that the basic goodness in most people is well demonstrated by charity appeals, such as for Ebola and the Nepal earthquake. After the appeals news came across of the huge amount of money and goods to help those people. Many Western medics, nurses, and other supporters put their own lives at risk by going out to W. Africa to help the victims.

In a nutshell, our societies have produced populations with a good and kind heart. As opposed to centuries back where it was every man for himself, to help their individual survival.

umm stardesk
western society is not the majority by a long shot.


And it was but increasingly No we are not free of material or mental
We are constantly watched our every move surveyed all our actions recorded and put into algorithms to sell us stuff we don't need.


I think it was less everyman for themselves in the past in the past you had you town or village and everyone knew everyone, Now we are all just numbers, cogs in the wheel powering a great beast that that most of us hardly see the benefit. More people work towards the profit of fewer people than ever before, because in the past there was limit to how much you could steal from another continent.

And while it is true when there is some 'drama' people come forward but how much suffering do we ignore everyday.

Hi Veya. I think you must have misunderstood what I was saying. It wasn't that Western populations are the largest, not by any means as you have pointed out. What I was saying was that the greatest number of people within a given society.

You're so right about commercial pressures. We are inundated all the time by adverts, sales letters through the door, phone calls from sales people. Shops and especially supermarkets use a lot of  psychology to boost their sales with gullible people. I caused a right rumpus one day. A price ticket said 'buy one get one half price.' Right, thought I, that means only one item should be 3/4 of the original price. I told the check out lady who said no, one item was the full price. An arguement ensued so I insisted she called for the manager, who came down and eventually, after a lot of wrangling, let me have said item for 3/4 the price. Next time I went in the price was as normal, single item and price.

So yes, we are at the mercy of high pressured sales, but, getting back to what I said above, the majority of a populartion do abide by the law and help each other.

Got to go now, be back in a while.

Ben_Reilly wrote:I think the two are inexorably linked, and that after you get enough people agreeing on social justice, issues of oligarchy will start to tumble as well. A lot of the super-wealthy already find themselves confounded by their children, who openly question the justice of them being born so well-off while so many more are suffering.

That's the long war, though -- but I think we're winning that too, regardless of how individual battles turn out.

Really? I bet they don't turn down money from their parents.

stardesk wrote:Hi Veya. I think you must have misunderstood what I was saying. It wasn't that Western populations are the largest, not by any means as you have pointed out. What I was saying was that the greatest number of people within a given society.

You're so right about commercial pressures. We are inundated all the time by adverts, sales letters through the door, phone calls from sales people. Shops and especially supermarkets use a lot of  psychology to boost their sales with gullible people. I caused a right rumpus one day. A price ticket said 'buy one get one half price.' Right, thought I, that means only one item should be 3/4 of the original price. I told the check out lady who said no, one item was the full price. An arguement ensued so I insisted she called for the manager, who came down and eventually, after a lot of wrangling, let me have said item for 3/4 the price. Next time I went in the price was as normal, single item and price.

So yes, we are at the mercy of high pressured sales, but, getting back to what I said above, the majority of a populartion do abide by the law and help each other.

Got to go now, be back in a while.

The manager probably just wanted to get rid of you ...

Raggamuffin wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:I think the two are inexorably linked, and that after you get enough people agreeing on social justice, issues of oligarchy will start to tumble as well. A lot of the super-wealthy already find themselves confounded by their children, who openly question the justice of them being born so well-off while so many more are suffering.

That's the long war, though -- but I think we're winning that too, regardless of how individual battles turn out.

Really? I bet they don't turn down money from their parents.

No, they're hypocrites just like anybody else

You're probably right Raggy. It's a wonder he didn't call the security man.

Remind you of anyone?

Eilzel wrote:Remind you of anyone?

I swear I did not make this
BUT ANYONE that has actually read them Knows IT is 100% true

You can instantly tell someone hasn't read the Koran when they suggest it is not the sequel to the bible

https://i.imgur.com/oV5x8Sd.png

eddie wrote:

it is a parody joke about humans and beliefs and eternity.

the basic premise is
what will the satellites think 10,000 years after humans are extinct (humans are the 'makers' they refer to)

we are making semi intelligent tech already it wont be long before they are fully sentient and we are making it so it could last longer than humanity... if catastrophic climate change occurs they will still be there... will they remember us? will they go insane?

Please keep your anti-religion shit in this thread Veya.

Raggamuffin wrote:Please keep your anti-religion shit in this thread Veya.

Hey Raggs
Fuck off

People post religious threads, the religious threads get comments.

veya_victaous wrote:

Raggamuffin wrote:Please keep your anti-religion shit in this thread Veya.

Hey Raggs
Fuck off

People post religious threads, the religious threads get comments.

No, I won't fuck off. If you insist on ruining the religious threads, I'll post in your athiest thread and tell what a twat you are.

why don't you post on topic
Go on Post some Anti Atheist stuff
or anti pagan stuff.

it's not my atheist thread anyway it is KD's 

veya_victaous wrote:why don't you post on topic
Go on Post some Anti Atheist stuff
or anti pagan stuff.

it's not my atheist thread anyway it is KD's 

Why don't you learn some manners and stay off the devotional thread for Christians? Even a loud-mouthed, ignorant Aussie should be able to manage that.

One to Actually discuss
Do people agree?
or not and why




I disagree
cause the Kid is pretending, they will grow out of it...  there are adults that Literally believe there is a magic sky giant watching and judging everyone, Not only that the Sky giants is an evil selfish greedy murdering, child-genital mutilator

they get to vote, they Do discriminate against other people based on these crazy fairy tales that HAVE been thoroughly disproven to the point where they have NO PLACE being spoken of as if they are real. and they do resort to violence in the face of logic and reason demonstrating how ridiculous their beliefs are.

What this guy forgets is literally as soon as they get control they start burning academics as witches, persecuting gay people etc as they have done for centuries. Really Abrahamist should be given no quarter or respite (as they gave none) and should be mocked mercilessly until mankind can purge itself of such ignorance.
Their Books (Koran or bible) openly demand forcing mankind to believe millennia old fairy tales that have been conclusive proven incorrect. and are incompatible with modern science, secularism and humanism.


these things add no benefit that could not be achieved through better means and much suffering to mankind that could be avoided by removing the disease that is Abrahamism.

Only one of these guys has the world record for wishes granted for kids with cancer
http://lasvegas.cbslocal.com/2015/08/24/wwe-star-john-cena-will-grant-record-500th-make-a-wish-request/

All I can see veya, is you, a big bully in the playground who feels he should go around telling religious people how stupid he thinks they are.

In fact, you're almost worse than religious people becaeue apart from the Jehovah's Witnesses, they mostly leave you alone.

Yea, you're a Jehovah's Atheist.

Stop knocking on people's door Veya. You're a nuisance and an irritant and no one is letting you in anyway.
You're a very angry atheist.

veya_victaous wrote:One to Actually discuss
Do people agree?
or not and why




I disagree
cause the Kid is pretending, they will grow out of it...  there are adults that Literally believe there is a magic sky giant watching and judging everyone, Not only that the Sky giants is an evil selfish greedy murdering, child-genital mutilator

they get to vote, they Do discriminate against other people based on these crazy fairy tales that HAVE been thoroughly disproven to the point where they have NO PLACE being spoken of as if they are real. and they do resort to violence in the face of logic and reason demonstrating how ridiculous their beliefs are.

What this guy forgets is literally as soon as they get control they start burning academics as witches, persecuting gay people etc as they have done for centuries. Really Abrahamist should be given no quarter or respite (as they gave none) and should be mocked mercilessly until mankind can purge itself of such ignorance.
Their Books (Koran or bible) openly demand forcing mankind to believe millennia old fairy tales that have been conclusive proven incorrect. and are incompatible with modern science, secularism and humanism.


these things add no benefit that could not be achieved through better means and much suffering to mankind that could be avoided by removing the disease that is Abrahamism.

Would you please stop inciting hatred? I think that's a fair request, don't you?

eddie wrote:All I can see veya, is you, a big bully in the playground who feels he should go around telling religious people how stupid he thinks they are.

In fact, you're almost worse than religious people becaeue apart from the Jehovah's Witnesses, they mostly leave you alone.

Yea, you're a Jehovah's Atheist.

Stop knocking on people's door Veya. You're a nuisance and an irritant and no one is letting you in anyway.
You're a very angry atheist.

Jehovah's Witnesses aren't as rude and obnoxious as Veya - don't insult them.

veya_victaous wrote:


Only one of these guys has the world record for wishes granted for kids with cancer
http://lasvegas.cbslocal.com/2015/08/24/wwe-star-john-cena-will-grant-record-500th-make-a-wish-request/

and still kids are dying from cancer what a waste of space he is eh, you're just a hateful person .