Ukraine is not fascist -- that would be Putin's Russia

... why, then, do Putin and his supporters see fascism ablaze in Kyiv? There are several reasons for this bizarre charge.

First, as the above characterization of fascism's key features should have suggested, the country that possesses all of them is not Ukraine -- but Putin's Russia. Its democratic institutions are at best moribund, having been transformed into pliant tools of the Kremlin; civil society and the press have been severely circumscribed; representatives of the military and secret police dominate all ruling elites and suffuse them with their antidemocratic ethos; the Russian nation and state are unabashedly glorified; Putin is the undisputed leader, and his macho image exudes vigor, youth and manliness; a variety of rabidly pro-Putin youth groups act as the vanguard of the state; the population overwhelmingly supports Putin and has done so since he assumed the presidency; ethnocentrism, a mistrust of both internal and external foreigners and a corresponding glorification of Russia's past (including its criminal Stalinist period) and present are the official worldview; Russia has taken to asserting its "rightful" place in the sun by engaging in war against Georgia and Ukraine.

It makes a great deal of sense for Putin and his propaganda apparatus to accused Ukraine of the very crime that he has committed -- so as to deflect world attention from his own transformation of Russia into a repressive state.

Second, the Kremlin needs to insist that Ukraine's democrats are fascists because it insists that Yanukovych was a democratic leader. Yanukovych was corrupt and dictatorial. He was rapidly closing down Ukrainian civil society and transforming the parliament into a rump institution, but he was too incompetent and too comical to be able to project the he-man image that Putin had perfected. Since the Kremlin refuses to acknowledge the right of people to oust tyrants, it has to insist that Ukraine is ruled by a "junta" -- which is just shorthand for fascism. According to this logic, Americans had no right to rebel against King George, and the government led by Washington, Jefferson and Hamilton was nothing but a junta!

Finally, the Kremlin's insistence that democratic Ukraine is fascist goes back to old Soviet -- as well as tsarist Russian -- stereotypes of Ukrainians who insisted on their democratic and/or national rights as traitors, agents of imperialism, capitalist stooges and, of course, fascists. Ironically, continued use by Putin and his supporters of such terminology demonstrates just how deeply they are still ensnared in Stalinist political culture.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alexander-motyl/putin-calls-ukraine-fasci_b_6600292.html?utm_hp_ref=world

Ben_Reilly wrote:

... why, then, do Putin and his supporters see fascism ablaze in Kyiv? There are several reasons for this bizarre charge.

First, as the above characterization of fascism's key features should have suggested, the country that possesses all of them is not Ukraine -- but Putin's Russia. Its democratic institutions are at best moribund, having been transformed into pliant tools of the Kremlin; civil society and the press have been severely circumscribed; representatives of the military and secret police dominate all ruling elites and suffuse them with their antidemocratic ethos; the Russian nation and state are unabashedly glorified; Putin is the undisputed leader, and his macho image exudes vigor, youth and manliness; a variety of rabidly pro-Putin youth groups act as the vanguard of the state; the population overwhelmingly supports Putin and has done so since he assumed the presidency; ethnocentrism, a mistrust of both internal and external foreigners and a corresponding glorification of Russia's past (including its criminal Stalinist period) and present are the official worldview; Russia has taken to asserting its "rightful" place in the sun by engaging in war against Georgia and Ukraine.

It makes a great deal of sense for Putin and his propaganda apparatus to accused Ukraine of the very crime that he has committed -- so as to deflect world attention from his own transformation of Russia into a repressive state.

Second, the Kremlin needs to insist that Ukraine's democrats are fascists because it insists that Yanukovych was a democratic leader. Yanukovych was corrupt and dictatorial. He was rapidly closing down Ukrainian civil society and transforming the parliament into a rump institution, but he was too incompetent and too comical to be able to project the he-man image that Putin had perfected. Since the Kremlin refuses to acknowledge the right of people to oust tyrants, it has to insist that Ukraine is ruled by a "junta" -- which is just shorthand for fascism. According to this logic, Americans had no right to rebel against King George, and the government led by Washington, Jefferson and Hamilton was nothing but a junta!

Finally, the Kremlin's insistence that democratic Ukraine is fascist goes back to old Soviet -- as well as tsarist Russian -- stereotypes of Ukrainians who insisted on their democratic and/or national rights as traitors, agents of imperialism, capitalist stooges and, of course, fascists. Ironically, continued use by Putin and his supporters of such terminology demonstrates just how deeply they are still ensnared in Stalinist socialist political culture.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/alexander-motyl/putin-calls-ukraine-fasci_b_6600292.html?utm_hp_ref=world

I have taken the liberty to correct the misleading key word in the above....

why?

because I wish to point out the vile nature of the "socialist" who continues to this day to associate "national socialism" with "hitlerism" and prefers to focus on that historical misuse of a perfectly valid political stance.

simply ...if its OK to associate national socialism with hitlerism (and hence the far right fascists)
the it is also perfectly fair to assocuate socialists...even "modern ones (who are in fact NOT "socialists" but no idea liberals) with Stalinists.....


just a thought....

NOTE I didnt say they WERE the same.....merely that it is fair politics to CLAIM they are and thus smear them ...like they do the national socialists......

I wouldn't say the Nazis acted like what one would expect from the name "national socialists," to be fair. They were nationalist, but the "socialist" part of the name was more for the sake of gaining popularity.

But, of course, the worst parts of what is meant by "Stalinism" have nothing to do with the basic tenets of socialism or communism, either. Stalin was functionally an authoritarian dictator who hijacked communism.

See 'Six Stalingrad Veterans Write Open Letter to Angela Merkel About Nazism' Revival In Ukraine'

Nazism is alive and well in Ukraine and Nazi marches are being held again.

risingsun wrote:See 'Six Stalingrad Veterans Write Open Letter to Angela Merkel About Nazism' Revival In Ukraine'

Nazism is alive and well in Ukraine and Nazi marches are being held again.

Nazism and communism, two vile evils.

Ben_Reilly wrote:I wouldn't say the Nazis acted like what one would expect from the name "national socialists," to be fair. They were nationalist, but the "socialist" part of the name was more for the sake of gaining popularity.

But, of course, the worst parts of what is meant by "Stalinism" have nothing to do with the basic tenets of socialism or communism, either. Stalin was functionally an authoritarian dictator who hijacked communism.

my point entirely

Brasidas wrote:

risingsun wrote:See 'Six Stalingrad Veterans Write Open Letter to Angela Merkel About Nazism' Revival In Ukraine'

Nazism is alive and well in Ukraine and Nazi marches are being held again.

Nazism and communism, two vile evils.

agreed...only exceeded in their vileness by liberalism

darknessss wrote:

Brasidas wrote:


Nazism and communism, two vile evils.

agreed...only exceeded in their vileness by liberalism

Yeah because there is countless history of genocide with Liberalism.
Not

Brasidas wrote:

darknessss wrote:

agreed...only exceeded in their vileness by liberalism

Yeah because there is countless history of genocide with Liberalism.
Not

nope...just a slow stifeling suffocation of individuality and independant thought....slavery by the velvet glove.......
a sort of "meltdown into a grey goo of uniformity" assisted by the everpresent fear of unreasonable laws...

you see ...nazism and communism ruled by fear of the machine gun
liberalism rules by fear of the law.......

darknessss wrote:

Brasidas wrote:


Yeah because there is countless history of genocide with Liberalism.
Not

nope...just a slow stifeling suffocation of individuality and independant thought....slavery by the velvet glove.......
a sort of "meltdown into a grey goo of uniformity" assisted by the everpresent fear of unreasonable laws...

you see ...nazism and communism ruled by fear of the machine gun
liberalism rules by fear of the law.......

Utter nonsense.
The morals you have today are born from secular liberalism
You wish to have harsh control, totalitarianism.
Liberalism rules by rational thinking and reason. You just fear those who do not agree with your views, that is not liberalism at fault but you.

Night Victor and all the best mate

Brasidas wrote:

darknessss wrote:

nope...just a slow stifeling suffocation of individuality and independant thought....slavery by the velvet glove.......
a sort of "meltdown into a grey goo of uniformity" assisted by the everpresent fear of unreasonable laws...

you see ...nazism and communism ruled by fear of the machine gun
liberalism rules by fear of the law.......

Utter nonsense.
The morals you have today are born from secular liberalism
You wish to have harsh control, totalitarianism.
Liberalism rules by rational thinking and reason. You just fear those who do not agree with your views, that is not liberalism at fault but you.

well you would say that wouldnt you.....yet your liberalist pals are the WORST of the dictators......slowly...creeping.....more surveillance, more data stored ...all for our own good of course and it will NEVER be used to repress and if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear......oh....wait.................

darknessss wrote:

Brasidas wrote:

darknessss wrote:

agreed...only exceeded in their vileness by liberalism

Yeah because there is countless history of genocide with Liberalism.
Not

nope...just a slow stifeling suffocation of individuality and independant thought....slavery by the velvet glove.......
a sort of "meltdown into a grey goo of uniformity" assisted by the everpresent fear of unreasonable laws...

you see ...nazism and communism ruled by fear of the machine gun
liberalism rules by fear of the law.......

You need to come up with some real concrete examples of this, and probably also demonstrate that this isn't just something going on in the UK to boot.

In my country, it's the "small-government" people who enforce conformity of religious, social and sexual norms far more than the liberals.

Honestly, I know what you hate but I have no idea what you stand for

Ben_Reilly wrote:

darknessss wrote:

nope...just a slow stifeling suffocation of individuality and independant thought....slavery by the velvet glove.......
a sort of "meltdown into a grey goo of uniformity" assisted by the everpresent fear of unreasonable laws...

you see ...nazism and communism ruled by fear of the machine gun
liberalism rules by fear of the law.......

You need to come up with some real concrete examples of this, and probably also demonstrate that this isn't just something going on in the UK to boot.

more a "european thing" than anything else

example.....would be Gordon Browns "bigot" comment....label someone a "bigot" and you immediately intimidate

how can i put it....theres the guy...reasonably protesting about immigration.....and his opponent (a lilly livered liberalist spik) shouts bigot.....
now...he is likely to be fair game for any amount of abuse and even the attention of our finest in blue (yes I know thats speculative...but watch some footage of such confrontations)
just like...a bloke that approches some woman and asks for a light and she screams rapist.....immagine the scene....


ok so a bit hyperbolic BUT that is EXACTLY what the liberalists are doing their best to inculcate and creepily introducing laws that assist that.....

In my country, it's the "small-government" people who enforce conformity of religious, social and sexual norms far more than the liberals.

Honestly, I know what you hate but I have no idea what you stand for

what do I stand for?

the priciple of "from those who have to those who have not"
the priciple of a fair and just society that provides properly for its vulnerable and less fortunate
the priciple of removing "tax favours" from large earners and corporations....
the principle of what is earned here is taxed here applied to businesses
the principle of a "state wage " payable without predjudice to ALL UK citizens paid for by the aforesaid tax inputs (and the subsequent removal of most other benefits, thus removing the discriminatory and degrading "social assistance" tag)
the removal of "death duty, and its replacemnt by heavier property taxes..especially on second and subsequent homes

A true and propper "amnesty" for all so called illegal immigrants....which would run for 1 Year and a day ...after which anyone not holding papers would be sumararily deported
In concert with this and comming into force at the end of the amnesty would be a total moratorium on immigration for 10 years with the exception (as is the australian way) of people with wanted skills...who have a job to take up...OR people under sponsorship OR those demonstrably financially independant..after which time the situation could be reviewed on the basis of sufficient and comprehensive integration.

Leave the EU (hmmm...that might not yet be necessary....watch what happens post Greece.

repeal the human rights act ...and replace it ...(as is allowed under international law) with a british bill of rights AND responsibilities...upon the acceptance of which ANY and all immigrants is dependant...

tougher sentencing

A change in the CONSTITUTION.....where by the death penalty could NEVER be reintroduced (who needs the HRA??)


A change in policing...with massive investment into police training and education.....(FGS...most of our cops only know what their powers are....but NOT how to apply them)

A huge change in law to posit a much greater reliance on self responsibilty...hell if you are pissed out of your skull, walk down a dark lane in dark clothes and get flattened.....why the fuck should the driver get prosecuted except in the most extreme circumstances???

the replacement of the current disgraceful system of government which merely encourages a line of trough monsters to accumulate in westminster,,,,

I suggest either a council of "experts" to advise a governing body (though not happy that would actually work) OR a govt NOT composed as it is of "party MP,s " who get where they are through "party politics)" but of the collective heads of local govt (our "county councils) who whilst "party based" generally get elected because they can actually "run things"
(it is true that some councils "play games" agaisnt central govt, but the majority actually work quite well, regardless of political shade)

to add strength to this I would introduce a system whereby any head of council (and any councillor)could be recalled and effectively "sacked" (or at least forced to run for re election) by a simple petition of 30% of the registered voting population he stands for.....

I would require govenment ministers to be "experts" in the field they are representing...so for instance the health minister MUST be of at least "consultant" level etc as appropriate to the dicipline they hold.

whew....

erm......

i gotta stop there and think......

darknessss wrote:

Brasidas wrote:

darknessss wrote:

agreed...only exceeded in their vileness by liberalism

Yeah because there is countless history of genocide with Liberalism.
Not

nope...just a slow stifeling suffocation of individuality and independant thought....slavery by the velvet glove.......
a sort of "meltdown into a grey goo of uniformity" assisted by the everpresent fear of unreasonable laws...

you see ...nazism and communism ruled by fear of the machine gun
liberalism rules by fear of the law.......

As opposed to Conservative Slavery under a Leather Lash
individuality and independent thought WTF Is that Shit!!! Conservative are Traditionally Religious Majority AKA the COMPLETE opposite
And Unreasonable as opposed to Conservative policies of Apartheid Segregation Slavery Privatization..

Velvet Gloves and being forced to be treat people equally seems pretty good in comparison

darknessss wrote:

Brasidas wrote:



Utter nonsense.
The morals you have today are born from secular liberalism
You wish to have harsh control, totalitarianism.
Liberalism rules by rational thinking and reason. You just fear those who do not agree with your views, that is not liberalism at fault but you.

well you would say that wouldnt you.....yet your liberalist pals are the WORST of the dictators......slowly...creeping.....more surveillance, more data stored ...all for our own good of course and it will NEVER be used to repress and if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear......oh....wait.................

Sorry Victor you are talking a load of babble.
Liberal views are based on rational views and reasoning where your views are based on what upsets you.
There is no comparison and Liberal views do not back surveillance either, even though on this one factor I do because of the world we live in today. I for one have nothing to hide and the dangers far outweigh your self conscious needs.