Iraq investigating whether Islamic State leader al-Baghdadi killed in US air strikes

Iraq was on Sunday investigating whether Islamic State (Isil) chief Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi was killed in air strikes by US-led coalition warplanes targeting the group's leaders.
The death of the elusive Baghdadi would be a major victory for the coalition of countries carrying out air strikes against Isil and aiding Iraqi forces fighting to regain large areas of Iraq that the jihadists have overrun.
The announcement of the strikes came after President Barack Obama unveiled plans to send up to 1,500 more US troops to Iraq to advise and train the country's forces, deepening Washington's commitment to the open-ended war against Isil.
"Until now, there is no accurate information available," a senior Iraqi intelligence official said when asked about whether Baghdadi had been killed.
"The information is from unofficial sources and was not confirmed until now, and we are working on that," the official said without specifying what the initial reports indicated.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/islamic-state/11219217/Iraq-investigating-whether-Islamic-State-leader-al-Baghdadi-killed-in-US-air-strikes.html

It would be good to hear confirmation that the bombs are hitting the right people.

1,500 troops will do nothing.  And how do you advise and train without actually getting into the fight?  They will be dead in 4-months or so, depending on their assignment.

The death of al-Baghdadi is speculative at best; they may never know.

umm who said we weren't gonna fight?

yeah non-combat my ass... we are gonna kill some people... even Nam started with advisors for political convenience

Plus because they are elite personal they can legitimately get away with it, remember it is 2 way propaganda as it makes to locals appear to have more control and make Americans feel their boy's are a lower risk.

we know what its all about Obama just asked for some Aussie SAS to go over. Abbott Said yes of course

and I doubt they will be dead in 4 months they are sending Pros not Grunts. it all depends of the locals if they can get the locals as grunts then our elite spearhead the attack (with massive air support) and let the locals do the messy work holding the positions and 'winning hearts and minds' cause last Iraq war has made that impossible for the west.

veya_victaous wrote:umm who said we weren't gonna fight?

yeah non-combat my ass...  we are gonna kill some people...  even Nam started with advisors for political convenience

Plus because they are elite personal they can legitimately get away with it, remember it is 2 way propaganda as it makes to locals appear to have more control and make Americans feel their boy's are a lower risk.

we know what its all about Obama just asked for some Aussie SAS to go over. Abbott Said yes of course

and I doubt they will be dead in 4 months they are sending Pros not Grunts. it all depends of the locals if they can get the locals as grunts then our elite spearhead the attack (with massive air support) and let the locals do the messy work holding the positions and 'winning hearts and minds'  cause last Iraq war has made that impossible for the west.

Pros get killed too, veya. I said 4-months, depending on the assignment. The longer they are over there, the greater the chance.

Locals? You just saw the entire Iraqi Army disintegrate before your very eyes after they received 10-years of training and $-billions of equipment from your Pros. Locals...grunts...pros...it won't make a difference. Ultimately this is a civil war, and it depends on whether Iran and the Sunni tribes want to take it to the mat.

LOOK at the "instructors" that the allies are sending in to teach the Iraqis and Mujahadeen how to suck eggs :

American Rangers, as well as Delta Force and SEALs instructors
British SAS and SBS
Aussie SAS and Commandoes
IF they need to use ISIS/ISIL goons as targets during their lessons, so be it..    

The point is: ANOTHER WAR!

How long this time? Ten, fifteen years? How much money? How many babies? At some point we have got to recognize that war is our way of life.

Original Quill wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:umm who said we weren't gonna fight?

yeah non-combat my ass...  we are gonna kill some people...  even Nam started with advisors for political convenience

Plus because they are elite personal they can legitimately get away with it, remember it is 2 way propaganda as it makes to locals appear to have more control and make Americans feel their boy's are a lower risk.

we know what its all about Obama just asked for some Aussie SAS to go over. Abbott Said yes of course

and I doubt they will be dead in 4 months they are sending Pros not Grunts. it all depends of the locals if they can get the locals as grunts then our elite spearhead the attack (with massive air support) and let the locals do the messy work holding the positions and 'winning hearts and minds'  cause last Iraq war has made that impossible for the west.

Pros get killed too, veya.  I said 4-months, depending on the assignment.  The longer they are over there, the greater the chance.

Locals?  You just saw the entire Iraqi Army disintegrate before your very eyes after they received 10-years of training and $-billions of equipment from your Pros.  Locals...grunts...pros...it won't make a difference.  Ultimately this is a civil war, and it depends on whether Iran and the Sunni tribes want to take it to the mat.

pfft
the Kurds
they have been resisting Saddam, Turkey, Iran and Assad for Decades.
Pretty sure they will be more than willing if the USA/UN was to offer to recognise their lands in Iraq and Syria as an independent Kurdish nation

Pros do get killed too but not as easily or as often
We had Pros in Afghanistan for as long as you and 41 brave men lost their lives over a decade of war.
you can see them listed by name
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Defence_Force_casualties_in_Afghanistan

Notice the HUGE difference deploying a strategy other than saturate with Grunts?
Let alone we didn't have the scandals and the accusations from the locals because we only deployed proper professionals that Choose the Military not some kid from a lower socio economic background that really just wants a chance to get a college degree.

The USA has a numerical advantage other most nations BUT it also has a significant advantage in technology and in the case of it's elite forces the Professionalism. use those advantages this time.

And War is Part of the Human Condition

Original Quill wrote:The point is: ANOTHER WAR!

How long this time?  Ten, fifteen years?  How much money?  How many babies?  At some point we have got to recognize that war is our way of life.

JE-----SUS.....

how long has it taken you to realise THAT??

I hate to spoil your fantasy about the human race...but.....

we are a warrior species.......

victorisnotamused wrote:

Original Quill wrote:The point is: ANOTHER WAR!

How long this time?  Ten, fifteen years?  How much money?  How many babies?  At some point we have got to recognize that war is our way of life.

JE-----SUS.....

how long has it taken you to realise THAT??

I hate to spoil your fantasy about the human race...but.....

we are a warrior species.......

or just Predators...
we behave no worse than wolves, lions or any other social predatory animal.

There was another article on Bee warfare and they are not even predators, we are not unique, violence and war are part of many Social animals.

I'm getting a lot of RW sentiment here. We agree that conservatives love their killing. RWers will try to justify their love of war by saying it's in the genes, or genetically all beings wish only to destroy the world. But this is not the balanced opinion of the world, and it certainly is not the sentiment in the US.

Here, the sentiment is no more wars, no more money wasted on munition plants...go, go away, get out of here. We are not going to see another war from the US during Obama's remaining term. That is the mood of the American people. Obama has a pack of rabid racists after him...do you think he is going to sell out his base, too?

If anybody here had a clear plan as to what to do, we would hear of it. **listen, listen** I'm not hearing anything.



Nothing. Not even a decent appreciation of what is going on, let alone any reason why it is of any matter to us. A couple of guys get their heads chopped off; who wants to spend the next ten years in a foreign war, and wast $17-trillion for grins? Nada! When smart people go to war, they know what is going on, who are the bad guys and who are the good guys, what each of them want, what you want, how to get what you want, and how to bank it and go home.

Christsake...if you were going into business you would have a business plan. I would take going to war at least as seriously as opening a business. Your banker would. Your rich relative would. But when it comes to politics, you guys are like.....



So, how the hell are you going to sell the American people on what they decidedly don't want? Congress can pass all the war bills the Republicans want, but if no one picks up the ball nothing is going to get done.

@Quill
bad guys = ISIS
good guys = Kurds
Bad guys want theocratic dictatorship with themselves in command.
Good guys want recognition of the traditional territories that have been denied them by the west in the craving up of the Ottoman empire.

we are already doing it under Obama so I don't know where you get this no more war thing our and your guys are already there... this time the plan is to do it properly, I.e. not full scale invade just 'Assist' one side. and make sure a 'lesser evil' in in power at the end of it.
Kurds have shown themselves to the best by western perceptions of good.

we can either back a horse and have a chance or back no one and know we cannot win.
I don't think they will make it here or any of that fear mongering rubbish but any western interests in the Middle east will be lost.

Actually for the USA and Australia it is losable, in terms of the impact will be limited but the Europe may be a little more concerned due to geographic vicinity.

Kurds are Kurds and Sunnis are Sunnis. They are not good or bad; they just believe different things. Kurds have long wanted recognition as a separate state...from Turkey as well as Iraq. They really are not the problem.

The bigger problem is the Shi'ia and the Sunnis, and the brewing civil war.

You still have not provided me with a real business plan for this war. I don't believe we have anything going on under Obama. To placate politics at home, he has placed a pittance of a force there, with lots of noisy airplanes to add drama to the scene. It would have to get a lot hotter there to effect anything...and that ain't gonna happen. No war was ever won solely by airplanes; and there will be hell to pay before troops of any strength or importance go anywhere near there.

Assist who? There is no clear pattern in the soup that is going on there today. ISIL is just an opportunistic gang, going around and making noise in the absence of any real power or authority.

Let them play among themselves until they get something going that we even care about. And then...we'll make up our mind. Maybe we'll send over an ambassador and such...but troops? No way.

No one wants US grunts (really no better way to ensure a stalemate then let US grunts run the show)

you already have special forces over there that all that is needed, not even any more.
and the Planes work as they were designed to, they are the Ultimate terroriser just like they were designed to be
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/11/11/obir-n11.html

Obama stated: “I am having conversations with Australia and other coalition partners that have already committed to putting trainers in how they can supplement and work with us in this overall effort.”

The US-led intervention was launched in August on the pretext of destroying the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS), which had taken control of significant areas of northern and western Iraq, and much of eastern Syria. After last week’s mid-term congressional elections, during which the war was barely mentioned, Obama quickly announced the doubling of US ground troops working with Iraqi government forces, from 1,500 to over 3,000. At least 7,000 mercenary contractors are also involved, along with war planes carrying out daily attacks inside Iraq and Syria.

And the Sunni Shiite thing has been going on for as longs as Islam it is not really coming to a head.
the Real issue is that between Syria and Iraq there are significant natural resources who ever controls them has wealth, and no one is keen on sunni fundamentalists with wealth, Iran and Saudi definitely don't. their wealth is controlled by shiite and have been economically suppressing other Muslims (mainly Sunni) for several decades now. At least Saddam the previous Sunni with power that created balance, was a secularist and thus not a threat on the theocratic front.

and the West generally doesn't like fundamentalist unless they can profit from them and ISIS causes too much damage to Western interests to ever be Profitable.

And
Kurds are an ethnic group, not a distinct religious sect within Islam.

they can be Sunni Shiite Christian and Zoroastrian

veya_victaous wrote:No one wants US grunts (really no better way to ensure a stalemate then let US grunts run the show)

you already have special forces over there that all that is needed, not even any more.
and the Planes work as they were designed to, they are the Ultimate terroriser just like they were designed to be
http://www.wsws.org/en/articles/2014/11/11/obir-n11.html

Obama stated: “I am having conversations with Australia and other coalition partners that have already committed to putting trainers in how they can supplement and work with us in this overall effort.”

The US-led intervention was launched in August on the pretext of destroying the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS), which had taken control of significant areas of northern and western Iraq, and much of eastern Syria. After last week’s mid-term congressional elections, during which the war was barely mentioned, Obama quickly announced the doubling of US ground troops working with Iraqi government forces, from 1,500 to over 3,000. At least 7,000 mercenary contractors are also involved, along with war planes carrying out daily attacks inside Iraq and Syria.

And the Sunni Shiite thing has been going on for as longs as Islam it is not really coming to a head.
the Real issue is that between Syria and Iraq there are significant natural resources who ever controls them has wealth, and no one is keen on sunni fundamentalists with wealth, Iran and Saudi definitely don't. their wealth is controlled by shiite and have been economically suppressing other Muslims (mainly Sunni) for several decades now. At least Saddam the previous Sunni with power that created balance, was a secularist and thus not a threat on the theocratic front.

and the West generally doesn't like fundamentalist unless they can profit from them and ISIS causes too much damage to Western interests to ever be Profitable.

I don’t see the key to success as calling in special forces as opposed to something called “grunts”.  A highly trained individual stops a bullet just as quick as anyone else.  

The special forces we have over there are a token show, with insufficient numbers to be of any significance.  A politician receives pressure from work just like anyone else; he responds, just like anyone else.  This time, the pressure on Obama is from Republicans, calling for a new war.  There are a million times more Americans that want Obama to stay out, but he decides to hedge his bets by sending in 1,500-3,000 troops “for training purposes only.”  This allows him to have his cake and eat it too…he looks like he is doing something and staying out at the same time.  A little something for everyone.

But we are not about to renew the Iraqi war.  What would be the purpose?

The Shi’ia Sunni thing is the only thing that has the potential to explode.  If they want to be quiet, as you argue, I glad.  The Kurds are probably the most cohesive group in the region.  They have been left alone to govern themselves for over a century.  You don’t have to be a religious group in order to be a force; after all, the US is not a religious group and we do pretty well...well enough for you guys to be begging us to intervene.  I have been there and lived among Kurds, and they are an ethnic group with far more identity than Sunnis in Baghdad.

Finally…ISIL is a gang.  Think of them as a motorcycle club like we have over here, known as the Hell’s Angels.  They run around the countryside marauding the locals.  It’s their problem, not outs.  It’s a police matter and the police should take care of it.

Of course, I know they don’t have any police.  The area is like Somalia in that regard.  Pirate gangs running the place.  Do you see us in Somalia?  It’s not our problem.  Leave it alone and it will die down.

veya_victaous wrote:And
Kurds are an ethnic group, not a distinct religious sect within Islam.

they can be Sunni Shiite Christian and Zoroastrian

I know. I have been there. The kurds don't have to be a religious element in order to be a force. They are more together that anyone else in the region.

the big difference to Somalia is we didn't remove the police

Again I refer to the 'reverse wookie life debt' as you called it

And 100% agree the Kurds are the ones to back if we are gonna back someone.

Then let's back the Kurds and give them a new country. Half from Turkey, half from Iraq and half from Syria.

Haven't seen a business plan for the rest of them that works. Let 'em be.

Anyway, al-Baghdadi released a new message today (available on iTunes or Google Play) that referenced events since the attack, so ...

Ben_Reilly wrote:Anyway, al-Baghdadi released a new message today (available on iTunes or Google Play) that referenced events since the attack, so ...

Yeah, they didn't got him.

He's a nobody, anyway.

Original Quill wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:Anyway, al-Baghdadi released a new message today (available on iTunes or Google Play) that referenced events since the attack, so ...

Yeah, they didn't got him.

He's a nobody, anyway.

Or, one of those interchangeable leaders terrorists always seem to have ... how many in al Qaeda were secretly happy we got bin Laden? "Oh, everybody loves bin Laden but he's been holding us back for years ..."

Killing them just makes them stronger.

Precisely. In fact, writ larger, going in and combating with them just makes a force out of a bunch of hooligans. Leave them alone and they'll get hungry and go home.