15-Year-Old Army Cadet Attacked With 'Makeshift Blowtorch' After Selling Poppies

First topic message reminder :

A 15-year-old army cadet has been attacked with a "makeshift blowtorch" in Manchester, minutes after selling poppies for Remembrance Day.

The cadet was wearing his camouflage army uniform when he was blasted in the face by a man using an aerosol can and a lighter, the Manchester Evening News reported.

The man used the aerosol and lighter to spray flames at the cadet's face after approaching him on Saturday night, then walked away without saying anything, according to police.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/11/02/army-cadet-burned-face-poppies-manchester_n_6090002.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

sphinx wrote:@didge/ben - point taken, my apologies.  I am just a touch upset over this - I take it as a direct threat to my children and any low life that suggests it is acceptable it going to get me after them.

I  and didge are posting at a place called www.massdebate.club where there is a character (in the literal sense of the word) named cipher who has said parents who have children in cadets are sick and abusing them.
There is something a bit off about the place but its got more UK news than here.

well sphinx ...if you havnt worked out who cipher is yet I'm surprised at you........
and You as well Didge.....

and yes the same person posts on here too......under a different ID

Any act of crime can be constituted as an act of war, as you have victims and relatives of victims, who can engage that war.
That just shows that people can have vengeance, which applies to the attacker here based on your logic if it was Muslims. Violence is enacted based on vengeance no matter the cause, a this attack would be based on vengeance to supposed crimes elsewhere.
A vicious circle, why hate and dislike are irrational, as these views lead to irrational thoughts, one that loses the ability to care..

victorisnotamused wrote:

sphinx wrote:@didge/ben - point taken, my apologies.  I am just a touch upset over this - I take it as a direct threat to my children and any low life that suggests it is acceptable it going to get me after them.

I  and didge are posting at a place called www.massdebate.club where there is a character (in the literal sense of the word) named cipher who has said parents who have children in cadets are sick and abusing them.
There is something a bit off about the place but its got more UK news than here.

well sphinx ...if you havnt worked out who cipher is yet I'm surprised at you........
and You as well Didge.....

and yes the same person posts on here too......under a different ID

Okay what is your guess here, though I think I know who you think it is, beginning with F and in this case I would say you were wrong, as that is not his posting style or arguments.

He never hides his ID also.

then you would be wrong didge.....

apply a little forensic lexicography to the posts...then think.......

Well if I am wrong to your assumption then pray tell.
You are either are then the person, based on knowing the identity, which I hope not as you upset sphinx, or you are guessing or in collaboration with, so which is it??.
To me it is just like a former female poster here or someone copying her style.

I'm not the person you daft pillock as you well know

former?? female poster...what did I miss...hang a a mo.......

It is me speculating of course I admit, but see patterns, based off other posts on there.
Anyway I never said you were only that you would be if you truly knew the identity or were in corroboration with, otherwise it was a guess on your part.

AHHH...now

cipher actually exists here in the member list but has never posted since july when it joined.......so someone has a dual ID......

I guess so, but who do you think then, as would be interesting on your thoughts as to why.

Not going to start a war here Didge.....

christ can you immagine it if I was to name names....
and as you say its still a"guess"...a very informed guess, based on well known methods of comparing written missives.

so I dont claim 100% surety....but......

No worries Victor and agree there is no need to name people as it can and would escalate into wars.


Night Victor, now going to watch extended edition of Desolation of Smaug, 25 minutes etc footage, happy days.

ohhhh...enjoy didge...

Just to be clear; I make no excuses for the attacker- religion can be a factor, racism from Muslims can be a factor, anti-military-anti-British-anti-western culture feelings can be a factor. I just don't think it is helpful or fair when the first comments on something like this are a sarcastic comment obviously intended to strike at the whole Muslim community.

sphinx wrote:The thing is if a Muslim had been attacked in such a way by a white man the police would immediately be considering a racial motive.  They would not state they were open minded about motivation.

Why can they not consider the same when an "black or asian" man attacks a white child?

Why are things not treated equally?

This is the same stupid comment people made about white on black crime after the Stephen Lawrence case.

Dare i say it: you're being emotional.

Just because someone you know could be threatened - blah blah blah - does not give you a licence to abuse of misrepresent what others say or do. You prat.

victorisnotamused wrote:

Brasidas wrote:



Do you cast staggering as not drunk?

staggering...or just "walking oddly"...which could have many reasons......including a desire to make identification more difficult

Lol! The 'let me act drunk so they think I'm non Muslim' tactic. HA HA!

victorisnotamused wrote:hmmm...

consider this possibility


can an individual carry out what amounts to an act of war on another individual
in other words are some offenses against the person "different" to "crime" because of the motivation??

What are you going to do - launch a cruise missile against an individual. I bet you are that thick.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

sphinx wrote:The thing is if a Muslim had been attacked in such a way by a white man the police would immediately be considering a racial motive.  They would not state they were open minded about motivation.

Why can they not consider the same when an "black or asian" man attacks a white child?

Why are things not treated equally?

This is the same stupid comment people made about white on black crime after the Stephen Lawrence case.

Dare i say it: you're being emotional.

Just because someone you know could be threatened - blah blah blah - does not give you a licence to abuse of misrepresent what others say or do. You prat.

Yeah strange that isnt it - an attack on a child results in people getting emotional.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

victorisnotamused wrote:hmmm...

consider this possibility


can an individual carry out what amounts to an act of war on another individual
in other words are some offenses against the person "different" to "crime" because of the motivation??

What are you going to do - launch a cruise missile against an individual. I bet you are that thick.

since you so clearly lack the intelligence to understand the import of what I am saying, I suggest you crawl back up your own arse.....
clearly the subtleties of the english language...such as italicising something .......is beyond you.....

sphinx wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

This is the same stupid comment people made about white on black crime after the Stephen Lawrence case.

Dare i say it: you're being emotional.

Just because someone you know could be threatened - blah blah blah - does not give you a licence to abuse of misrepresent what others say or do. You prat.

Yeah strange that isnt it - an attack on a child results in people getting emotional.

Everyone is someone's child.

Have some self control and stop making excuses for your failings. It's pathetic.

victorisnotamused wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

What are you going to do - launch a cruise missile against an individual. I bet you are that thick.

since you so clearly lack the intelligence to understand the import of what I am saying, I suggest you crawl back up your own arse.....
clearly the subtleties of the english language...such as italicising something .......is beyond you.....

And you're talking about the law. Of which you clearly know nothing about it.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Yeah strange that isnt it - an attack on a child results in people getting emotional.

Everyone is someone's child.

Have some self control and stop making excuses for your failings. It's pathetic.

You are one of "ciphers" friends I take it.

Perhaps you would like to explain the difference between the 15 year old cadet attacked and my son the 15 year old cadet that means I dont have to worry?

sphinx wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Everyone is someone's child.

Have some self control and stop making excuses for your failings. It's pathetic.

You are one of "ciphers" friends I take it.

Perhaps you would like to explain the difference between the 15 year old cadet attacked and my son the 15 year old cadet that means I dont have to worry?

Your son will be driving a car soon. Are you going to take your emotions out on others, just in case he's also in a car crash?

Like I said, stop making excuses for your pathetic failings and have some self control.

Unfair Zack! People,are allowed emotions aren't they?

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

sphinx wrote:

You are one of "ciphers" friends I take it.

Perhaps you would like to explain the difference between the 15 year old cadet attacked and my son the 15 year old cadet that means I dont have to worry?

Your son will be driving a car soon. Are you going to take your emotions out on others, just in case he's also in a car crash?

Like I said, stop making excuses for your pathetic failings and have some self control.

Do I take my emotions out on those who drive drunk or drive dangerously and injure or kill innocents - absolutely. However in most crashes it is either a true accident or factors of both drivers contribute.

Seeing a child dressed in a certain way carrying out a certain activity, walking towards them, raising a spray can in one hand and a lighter in the other, aiming the spray at the childs face and lighting it has nothing of the accident about it - that is a cold blooded deliberate attack against a specific target.

sphinx wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Your son will be driving a car soon. Are you going to take your emotions out on others, just in case he's also in a car crash?

Like I said, stop making excuses for your pathetic failings and have some self control.

Do I take my emotions out on those who drive drunk or drive dangerously and injure or kill innocents - absolutely.  However in most crashes it is either a true accident or factors of both drivers contribute.

Seeing a child dressed in a certain way carrying out a certain activity, walking towards them, raising a spray can in one hand and a lighter in the other, aiming the spray at the childs face and lighting it has nothing of the accident about it - that is a cold blooded deliberate attack against a specific target.

Again I understand why you would be very concerned here, being as you have children in the cadets Sphinx and if the reason behind this was a deliberate attack on this child because he was seen as a representative of the army by the attacker, what would you say to your son about this?
That really this was a rare kind of attack of which it is?
That not all Asians,or blacks, or even Muslims feel this way?
I am intrigued more as what you want to get out of this, where we all want the attack caught and condemned?

My sons attachment has both Muslim and immigrant members - they are good solid cadets and proud to wear the uniform.

There are plenty of homegrown idiots who would deliberately attack army representatives.

I want the man who did this tracked down and properly punished. I fear that this will not happen for various reasons including it being seen that sometimes the authorities do not pursue criminals on the grounds of race and faith.

I would want the same of any person who attacked any representative of the armed forces.

sphinx wrote:My sons attachment has both Muslim and immigrant members - they are good solid cadets and proud to wear the uniform.

There are plenty of homegrown idiots who would deliberately attack army representatives.

I want the man who did this tracked down and properly punished.  I fear that this will not happen for various reasons including it being seen that sometimes the authorities do not pursue criminals on the grounds of race and faith.

I would want the same of any person who attacked any representative of the armed forces.

Okay so the bases here is around Police intervention or lack of it, which I can very much understand Sphinx, though from what I have seen today this is not the case.

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/teenage-poppy-seller-burned-makeshift-8072469


I get your point here because many people are let down in investigations Sphinx, though it is unfair to equate this to other racist attacks when as seen they also experience the same. Thus the point should be on Police action here only, not any other point. I do not think PC is going to factor into this case now.

eddie wrote:Unfair Zack! People,are allowed emotions aren't they?

Not when those emotions cause you to act or even think unfairly. I will call people on that.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

eddie wrote:Unfair Zack! People,are allowed emotions aren't they?

Not when those emotions cause you to act or even think unfairly. I will call people on that.

So if you saw an attack where the victim matched your own child and could have been your own child you would react perfectly logically would you? Even if the past months had been filled with evidence that the authorities have been acting anything but fairly towards a group that includes your child?

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

eddie wrote:Unfair Zack! People,are allowed emotions aren't they?

Not when those emotions cause you to act or even think unfairly. I will call people on that.

That's what heightened emotions do to people Zack. They cause us to get angry, sad, upset, depressed....

Otherwise we are robots.

eddie wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Not when those emotions cause you to act or even think unfairly. I will call people on that.

That's what heightened emotions do to people Zack. They cause us to get angry, sad, upset, depressed....

Otherwise we are robots.

I understand emotions are normal. I also understand that many will react. But if it motivates you to react irrationally or morally incorrectly, there is no excuse for that.

Otherwise You can justify absolutely anything, just because one is fearful or angry.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

eddie wrote:

That's what heightened emotions do to people Zack. They cause us to get angry, sad, upset, depressed....

Otherwise we are robots.

I understand emotions are normal. I also understand that many will react. But if it motivates you to react irrationally or morally incorrectly, there is no excuse for that.

Otherwise You can justify absolutely anything, just because one is fearful or angry.

What exactly is irrational about refusing to accept someone suggesting I am abusive to my children because they are in the cadets?

What is irrational about giving consideration to the idea that a black/asian man who sprays flames into the face of a child in an army uniform may have religion and anti british feelings as his motivation?

I will tell you this for nothing - If I had seen someone - anyone - attack my child in that manner I would go after them and probably kill them if I got them. I would not care about their skin colour or motivation I would only care that they attacked my child.

Maybe what you consider irrational is my fear that because a different child was attacked that way it may make my child vulnerable - because after all it was very rare and a one off right? Well my very rational thinking on the subject is there are idiots out there who copycat things, and there are, whether you like it or not, individuals living here who would like to bring down and destroy my country. My rational fear is that one of the individuals wanting to bring down my country (who may be of any colour and any nationality including British born and bred) will also be a copy cat and will decide to copy what was done in Manchester - and that it may be my son chosen as the target.

+1

sphinx wrote:

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

I understand emotions are normal. I also understand that many will react. But if it motivates you to react irrationally or morally incorrectly, there is no excuse for that.

Otherwise You can justify absolutely anything, just because one is fearful or angry.

What exactly is irrational about refusing to accept someone suggesting I am abusive to my children because they are in the cadets?

What is irrational about giving consideration to the idea that a black/asian man who sprays flames into the face of a child in an army uniform may have religion and anti british feelings as his motivation?

I will tell you this for nothing - If I had seen someone - anyone - attack my child in that manner I would go after them and probably kill them if I got them.  I would not care about their skin colour or motivation I would only care that they attacked my child.  

Maybe what you consider irrational is my fear that because a different child was attacked that way it may make my child vulnerable - because after all it was very rare and a one off right?  Well my very rational thinking on the subject is there are idiots out there who copycat things, and there are, whether you like it or not, individuals living here who would like to bring down and destroy my country.  My rational fear is that one of the individuals wanting to bring down my country (who may be of any colour and any nationality including British born and bred) will also be a copy cat and will decide to copy what was done in Manchester - and that it may be my son chosen as the target.

More emotional bullshit. Where you are now saying you're willing to act - not of evidence but on assumption.

You're right. I don't condone such stupidity.

Only a person lacking normal control would do that.

You seem to lacking control yourself with infantile insults, talk about double standards.

Brasidas wrote:You seem to lacking control yourself with infantile insults, talk about double standards.

Again - what infantile insults? This seems to be the only reply you have to posts you can't answer.

Fuzzy Zack wrote:

Brasidas wrote:You seem to lacking control yourself with infantile insults, talk about double standards.

Again - what infantile insults?  This seems to be the only reply you have to posts you can't answer.

I suggest you read your reply because it is emotional.
As you cannot it seems be able to reply with any decency.