Islamic State Have A Magazine Out, And It Justifies Sex Slavery

by Guest Mon Oct 13, 2014 7:28 pm

Islamic State fighters captured, enslaved and sold Yazidi women and children, and claim the act is justified in Islam to prevent men from feeling "tempted" by other, non-enslaved women, according to a piece in the group's full-colour magazine.

The magazine, which is published in English and evidently aimed at a Western audience, confirms the long-rumoured atrocities committed by the group in Iraq, where Yazidi women have reported being kidnapped, sold for a few dollars and repeatedly raped.

The latest issue of Dabiq magazine released on Sunday stated, "the enslaved Yazidi families are now sold by the Islamic State soldiers." It added, "the Yazidi women and children were then divided according to the Sharia amongst the fighters of the Islamic State who participated in the Sinjar operations."

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/10/13/islamic-state-have-a-magazine-out-and-it-justifies-sex-slavery_n_5976996.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

by The Puzzler Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:56 pm

Silly Didge. Clearly this is the fault of us in the Evil West for...something something...liberating Afghanistan from the Taliban as an official government. I mean what kind of racist bastard would you have to be to actually hold ISIS accountable for their actions and try to limit the threat of them attacking us?
(disclaimer - this post was a joke just in case the terminally offended take it seriously)
Good to see you back again Didge tongue

by Guest Mon Oct 13, 2014 9:59 pm

Thanks Puzzler.

by Ben Reilly Mon Oct 13, 2014 10:01 pm

Who says ISIS isn't accountable for its crimes?

by veya_victaous Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:53 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:Who says ISIS isn't accountable for its crimes?

THIS GUY

Islamic State Have A Magazine Out, And It Justifies Sex Slavery Flat,550x550,075,f.u1

by Ben Reilly Mon Oct 13, 2014 11:55 pm

^^^

Islamic State Have A Magazine Out, And It Justifies Sex Slavery 3489511464

He's the worst! Do you know, he believes in killing babies and hates God?!

by Guest Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:02 am

What a thread to make a joke about, wow.

All I say is I hope these poor girls, can find someone to be their saviours to free them from this living nightmare.

by Ben Reilly Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:13 am

Would that you cared so deeply about all suffering children! As long as you care about those suffering at the hands of those evil old Muslims, I guess that's better than nothing.

Are we sure you're Didge, and not the return of BigAndy9?

by Guest Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:46 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:Would that you cared so deeply about all suffering children! As long as you care about those suffering at the hands of those evil old Muslims, I guess that's better than nothing.

Are we sure you're Didge, and not the return of BigAndy9?

I do care greatly for children, hence why I do not make jokes on threads about them.
Again you try to defend now extremists, who are raping young girls, seriously, who has taken your intelligence away? This does not mean all Muslims are like this, but some are, of which you wish to not only not condemn, but make a mockery of the plight of these girls. I doubt any would find your post here in any shape funny, when these extremists, are using a belief in God to back their abuse.

by veya_victaous Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:01 am

Brasidas wrote:What a thread to make a joke about, wow.

All I say is I hope these poor girls, can find someone to be their saviours to free them from this living nightmare.

well your the one being ridiculous Rolling Eyes

do you really think if you can show us all how mean and nasty ISIS is we will say that we agree that is it s okay to abandon our own morals?
Do you actually think the argument people like me and ben are making is "ISIS is all good and should be left alone".

LET US BE CLEAR our argument is that we can justify attacking ISIS in clean military strikes while maintaining a position to reduce civilian causalities from our own side. AND that people like you that just want to spout hate and propaganda in some mistaken belief that it is necessary to build a a war fever to deal with ISIS are also a problem... it is not necessary we don't need to demonetise Islam in order to justify attacking ISIS and the Secular Ideals of the West will be better served by NOT stereotyping over a billion people in one homogeneous group and ACTUALLY holding the high moral ground and NOT resorting to bashing all Muslims for the actions of fundamentalists.

Your motive is to to kill evil people... fine
Our Motive it make sure we do not become the evil people in the process.
And anyone that can look at what the west has done in the middle east in the last decade alone and not concede that the locals could well have a justifiable reason to NOT like us and not trust us is a fool....
we wont win friends in the region (or anywhere) by being hypocrites and what the west needs if it wants peace and security in the middle east is Friends that can see the merit of our progressive Secular system (if the west actually wants peace in the middle east is a different debate)

by Guest Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:03 am

Oh dear ore defending genocide, the world of veya, who argues for the logic of if a Muslim is attacked this justifies other Muslims on the only connection being religion committing genocide and rape, thus arguing for Christians to do the same.

Yep complete stupidity and the daft reasoning of some on the left, where thankfully, most people cannot watch and sit back as countless innocent Muslims, Christians etc are being slaughtered and persecuted at the hands of some very evil people.

by Ben Reilly Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:10 am

Brasidas wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:Would that you cared so deeply about all suffering children! As long as you care about those suffering at the hands of those evil old Muslims, I guess that's better than nothing.

Are we sure you're Didge, and not the return of BigAndy9?

I do care greatly for children, hence why I do not make jokes on threads about them.
Again you try to defend now extremists, who are raping young girls, seriously, who has taken your intelligence away? This does not mean all Muslims are like this, but some are, of which you wish to not only not condemn, but make a mockery of the plight of these girls. I doubt any would find your post here in any shape funny, when these extremists, are using a belief in God to back their abuse.

Where did I defend anyone raping anybody?

You do get your head stuck way up your ass sometimes ...

by Guest Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:15 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:
Brasidas wrote:

I do care greatly for children, hence why I do not make jokes on threads about them.
Again you try to defend now extremists, who are raping young girls, seriously, who has taken your intelligence away? This does not mean all Muslims are like this, but some are, of which you wish to not only not condemn, but make a mockery of the plight of these girls. I doubt any would find your post here in any shape funny, when these extremists, are using a belief in God to back their abuse.

Where did I defend anyone raping anybody?

You do get your head stuck way up your ass sometimes ...

Mine is firm and in shape, though I am sure you get lost up your own fat arse daily son.

You are defending when you lose sight of the problem saying "these evils old Muslims" to claims on me caring about children

Well they are evil the ones doing this, where again you seem to make light of the matter on this with that appalling view

by Ben Reilly Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:19 am

Ooh, you *are* getting fussy now ... Smile

by Guest Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:21 am

I am not zack, and he spells it fuzzy.

Smile

by veya_victaous Tue Oct 14, 2014 1:55 am

Brasidas wrote:Oh dear ore defending genocide, the world of veya, who argues for the logic of if a Muslim is attacked this justifies other Muslims nope, there is no need for justification (historians love it that sort make believe attribute they can put in text books) just do stuff and IF you are actually doing the right thing you don't really have to justify it to anyone, you spend so much time trying to justify your perspective because it is wrong on the only connection being religion committing genocide and rape, thus arguing for Christians to do the same.

Yep complete stupidity and the daft reasoning of some on the left, where thankfully, most people cannot watch and sit back as countless innocent Muslims, Christians etc are being slaughtered and persecuted at the hands of some very evil people.
I called for Boots on the ground weeks before you (Mr. Round up leadership and bomb them will work) I just think we can do it with out bringing religion into it and IF we can make an effort to Not kill innocent people in the process than we MAY actually convince some of the locals that we are not actually that bad and we do have some ideas that are worth adopting, of course parents of kids killed by us will be reluctant to EVER listen to anything we ever have to say again

most people sit back all the time.... See half a dozen conflicts in Africa... See the Mexican Drug Cartels.....
but these guys are Muslims so the world must get rid of all morality in destroying them

Islamic State Have A Magazine Out, And It Justifies Sex Slavery Stawman

Islamic State Have A Magazine Out, And It Justifies Sex Slavery Stawman

by Guest Tue Oct 14, 2014 5:59 am

Funny your last picture, because that is what you actually did.

by stardesk Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:29 pm

Hi Brasidas. You know, it really does puzzle me why some people respond to your comments in a contradictory manner. Surely, based on our long tradition of good morals and ethics etc, it is evil to enslave, rape and murder innocent people? Isis have shown themselves to be utterly reprehensible and evil in the extreme, and should be exterminated by whatever means possible. They are a blight, a sore, a disease inflicting Humanity and as such should be dealt with, if needs be then by the same means they are using, violence and war.
How would we like it if by some means they were able to enter our country, in force, and start killing, raping, and enslaving?
I've said before and say again, NATO should send in thousands of troops, surround them, and exterminate them like the evil parasites they are. They do not deserve the right to called men, humans.

by The Puzzler Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:42 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
Brasidas wrote:What a thread to make a joke about, wow.

All I say is I hope these poor girls, can find someone to be their saviours to free them from this living nightmare.

well your the one being ridiculous

do you really think if you can show us all how mean and nasty ISIS is we will say that we agree that is it s okay to abandon our own morals?
Do you actually think the argument people like me and ben are making is "ISIS is all good and should be left alone".

LET US BE CLEAR our argument is that we can justify attacking ISIS in clean military strikes while maintaining a position to reduce civilian causalities from our own side. AND that people like you that just want to spout hate and propaganda in some mistaken belief that it is necessary to build a a war fever to deal with ISIS are also a problem... it is not necessary we don't need to demonetise Islam in order to justify attacking ISIS and the Secular Ideals of the West will be better served by NOT stereotyping over a billion people in one homogeneous group and ACTUALLY holding the high moral ground and NOT resorting to bashing all Muslims for the actions of fundamentalists.

Your motive is to to kill evil people... fine
Our Motive it make sure we do not become the evil people in the process.
And anyone that can look at what the west has done in the middle east in the last decade alone and not concede that the locals could well have a justifiable reason to NOT like us and not trust us is a fool....
we wont win friends in the region (or anywhere) by being hypocrites and what the west needs if it wants peace and security in the middle east is Friends that can see the merit of our progressive Secular system (if the west actually wants peace in the middle east is a different debate)

Talking of strawmen veya, there's a massive pair of the fuckers. No one on here is bashing ALL Muslims because of ISIS, but what needs to be acknowledged is that there's a big, big problem within the religion and specifically Sunni Islam. It's no coincidence that most Islamic terror groups are Sunni. Either way, letting thousands of hardcore Islamists live freely in our societies(and I KNOW Australia's had a big problem with them despite what you say) is a recipe for disaster. Why should they be free to raise funds and directly recruit for ISIS - let's not pretend that the minute all those jihadis get back to our countries(if allowed - and with Cameron it's a foregone conclusion that they will be) they'll turn peaceful and not want to go beheading a few more infidels. We are setting ourselves up for Mumbai/Westgate style attacks on our home soil if we don't take drastic action to stop the spread of Salafism and Wahhabism in the West.

by The Puzzler Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:47 pm

Brasidas wrote:Funny your last picture, because that is what you actually did.

It's a massive fallacy that anyone concerned in the slightest about Islamic terror is 'bashing a billion Muslims'. No veya what we are doing is bashing the terrorists and the ideology that spawns them - Sunni Islam and getting even more specific Salafism and Wahhabism. There are peaceful sects like Ahmadis and Alawites who are as far removed from Sunni Islamists as non Muslims are. It's just a pity that Islam can't be allowed to clean house as long as lefties enable/apologise for groups like ISIS.

by The Puzzler Tue Oct 14, 2014 12:56 pm

And I don't know about you veya but I'd rather be eaten by a shark or die in a road accident than be paraded, tortured and beheaded on camera in my own country - even if the former examples are statistically more likely it doesn't mean we shouldn't try as hard as possible to reduce the risk of the latter happening to any of our citizens(are you forgetting Lee Rigby so soon).

by Guest Tue Oct 14, 2014 6:20 pm

stardesk wrote:Hi Brasidas. You know, it really does puzzle me why some people respond to your comments in a contradictory manner. Surely, based on our long tradition of good morals and ethics etc, it is evil to enslave, rape and murder innocent people? Isis have shown themselves to be utterly reprehensible and evil in the extreme, and should be exterminated by whatever means possible. They are a blight, a sore, a disease inflicting Humanity and as such should be dealt with, if needs be then by the same means they are using, violence and war.
How would we like it if by some means they were able to enter our country, in force, and start killing, raping, and enslaving?
I've said before and say again, NATO should send in thousands of troops, surround them, and exterminate them like the evil parasites they are. They do not deserve the right to called men, humans.

Hi Stardesk and Puzzler

This is what people fail to see and they neglect the same has happened within Christianity where core belief have been used throughout history to justify murder on an unprecedented scale, which has changed in the west because less people hold such literal beliefs and that religion has little say or has power to influence laws. Sadly it still does in around half of the Islamic countries to the point my view is this rise is more to do in regards to an Islamic identity that has formed in these countries where they fear to lose power and control, which has stemmed from the exporting of Salafism around the world. They neglect just like verses were used for centuries in the west to justify religious hatred, so it happens in Islam, and more so because religion still holds sway in some of their countries, all of which they seem to neglect. This is not just about Islam, but what is fundamentally wrong with religions, with how easy it is to use these faiths for violence. Even more so when they are basically a message of fear based around an after lif. Like I said before we create life having children, but there is not many that advocate threatening their children with untold suffering if they are not obeyed and love their creators in their parents. Yet billions ignore this fact and bow down to such evil, as any parent that acted this way to a child, we would call evil.

The fact is there is little opposition to this extremism in Islam, it is silent in communities, granted some do speak out and expose extremists, but many do not, where clearly there is not much of a difference on the views followed on Islam by both groups, they both hold apostasy is wrong, the same with homosexuality, marital rape is acceptable, the list goes on and when you break it down, what they only differ on is the levels of how these acts are punished.

by Ben Reilly Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:02 pm

stardesk wrote:Hi Brasidas. You know, it really does puzzle me why some people respond to your comments in a contradictory manner. Surely, based on our long tradition of good morals and ethics etc, it is evil to enslave, rape and murder innocent people? Isis have shown themselves to be utterly reprehensible and evil in the extreme, and should be exterminated by whatever means possible. They are a blight, a sore, a disease inflicting Humanity and as such should be dealt with, if needs be then by the same means they are using, violence and war.
How would we like it if by some means they were able to enter our country, in force, and start killing, raping, and enslaving?
I've said before and say again, NATO should send in thousands of troops, surround them, and exterminate them like the evil parasites they are. They do not deserve the right to called men, humans.

Nobody on this site claims it isn't evil to enslave, rape or murder -- with the possible exception of Vic, who the other day asked if slavery was really inherently evil Rolling Eyes

by eddie Tue Oct 14, 2014 8:41 pm

I've read through this thread and I fail to see where people are differing in opinion???
I don't see anyone defending rape, and I don't see anyone saying all Muslims are bad.

The bastards that are committing the crime are the bad ones.

Why is there an argument going on, surely we are all agreed??

by Ben Reilly Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:04 pm

eddie wrote:I've read through this thread and I fail to see where people are differing in opinion???
I don't see anyone defending rape, and I don't see anyone saying all Muslims are bad.

The bastards that are committing the crime are the bad ones.

Why is there an argument going on, surely we are all agreed??

It seems to me like Didge has taken some statements he's heard, maybe from Ben Affleck or somebody, and decided that everyone on the left agrees with them. I'd like the chance to speak for myself, I couldn't care about anything Affleck has to say about anything.

by Guest Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:22 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
eddie wrote:I've read through this thread and I fail to see where people are differing in opinion???
I don't see anyone defending rape, and I don't see anyone saying all Muslims are bad.

The bastards that are committing the crime are the bad ones.

Why is there an argument going on, surely we are all agreed??

It seems to me like Didge has taken some statements he's heard, maybe from Ben Affleck or somebody, and decided that everyone on the left agrees with them. I'd like the chance to speak for myself, I couldn't care about anything Affleck has to say about anything.

Or more to the point I take issue being as I defend against discrimination, to all including many people who are religious, that because I am very critical of religion, it then makes a claim by some to cast me as a bigot, racist etc, when I am not arguing casting all Muslims as if they are a danger and at war with us, unlike some posters we know. It seems my views which is progression for religion and not to fear all Muslims but to engage them and help progress what I see as appalling discrimination in this and other faiths, which is different to views the same as the likes of smelly and co that use the criticism of Islam to attack and demonize Muslims. It shows there is no distinction by some, (when there is) and any who are critical are cast along with haters, which is not the case here, but speaking of real problems which as seen are at times poorly defended because of a view not to be seen to offend. It shows an ability to be constructive about religions and to me avoid the problems they have within them when based off works seen and believed as the word of a deity.

by Ben Reilly Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:35 pm

I apply this across the board -- you have a lot of religions and a lot of people following them. Let's just take Hinduism as a neutral example since I don't think we have any Hindus here and we haven't been arguing back and forth about it.

Obviously within Hinduism you find a lot of followers who do positive things, and a distressingly increasing number of followers who do negative things.

This tells me logically that the faith itself doesn't lead to good or bad, but the individual people and how they live.

Couple that with the fact that throughout all human history and its many civilizations, over and over you can see a tendency to excuse crimes and atrocities with "It's what God wills." They've found it works better to say "We in group X need to slaughter group Y because God told me so" than to say "We need to slaughter them because they have things we want or need/they're different from us and I don't like that/they did it to us first." I'm sure a million years ago, tribes raided one another at the behest of chiefs who claimed to speak for the gods/spirits/ancestors/whatever.

So religious belief is used as a cop-out both to make people seem better than they are, and to make them seem worse than they are, depending on which side you're on.

I also think (and I realize I'm getting long-winded) that we're always looking for one magic problem to point to that makes people do bad things. I'm afraid if you look at it logically, religious belief isn't it (even if it's totally irrational and a vestige of our need to explain the world around us). It's going to be really hard to find one, two or even half a dozen things that make people violent or oppressive.

In my opinion, a far more promising area of study is on how environment and genetics complement one another and can sometimes apparently lead to people becoming, for example, psychopathic killers:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u2V0vOFexY4

by Guest Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:45 pm

All irrelevant, we have a deity in the abrahamic faiths, that endorses and backs violence with war, including some of the most violent genocide you will witness and all enacted upon and all made possible with a belief around this same God.
It matters not that you think there are many nice religious people, of which there are, these religious works enable and allow for the most extreme violence based around literal beliefs and the worst part is their actions are little better than that acted out by this deity all found within the works.

What you should be looking at is the actions of this deity and how people see such a deity and who believe to enact out as this deity does.
This is one are of known reasons why people have committed violence through centuries of history, and that is religion and the thing is all those engaged whole heartily believed they were doing Gods work.

The fact that these works have the most appalling oppressive stories that has people face the most horrendous torture and violence would make most people turn in disgust at such horror, but people actually believe in such an evil entity, that preys upon people to love him or suffer the consequences. Then you hve humans that take this to the literal view point to also do the same, punish those who's faith is not the right one or are unbelievers, which is why you are not grasping the problem, which has always been the case with religion

by Guest Tue Oct 14, 2014 9:57 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
stardesk wrote:Hi Brasidas. You know, it really does puzzle me why some people respond to your comments in a contradictory manner. Surely, based on our long tradition of good morals and ethics etc, it is evil to enslave, rape and murder innocent people? Isis have shown themselves to be utterly reprehensible and evil in the extreme, and should be exterminated by whatever means possible. They are a blight, a sore, a disease inflicting Humanity and as such should be dealt with, if needs be then by the same means they are using, violence and war.
How would we like it if by some means they were able to enter our country, in force, and start killing, raping, and enslaving?
I've said before and say again, NATO should send in thousands of troops, surround them, and exterminate them like the evil parasites they are. They do not deserve the right to called men, humans.

Nobody on this site claims it isn't evil to enslave, rape or murder -- with the possible exception of Vic, who the other day asked if slavery was really inherently evil

In the context of a rhetorical question in a philosophical debate of what essentially is good or evil (and whether the worst of all is chaos as opposed to order)
so f**k you. you are clearly to damn thick to have that level of debate with, and are unable to accept that in order to debate philosophy, someone has to act as "devils advocate and ask the awful question.....AND dont say you didnt realise it was purely philosophical because THAT point was well made before it started....
the trouble with you dumb ass progressives is that you in fact have just about destroyed any form of philosophical debate with your instant rabid and mindles reaction to any word outside of your comfort zone

progressive see word "slavery"
progressive mindset orders .......shout loudly abuse and destroy the user of that word
then think why it was said and invent twatish excuses as to why progressive idiot acted that way

normal person heres word "slavery"
normal mind set thinks ...ok time to engage in finding out a) why the word was used and b) discus why we dont really think its a good idea.....

Some of you see like to discuss things like the reality of evil/good and order/chaos...they are the REAL insights .....the problem is you need real world examples to put things into perspective....

If you care to read what I said, this time engaging what passes as a brain in your sawdust filled cranium...is that slavery isnt of itself intrinsically EVIL since the definition of what is evil depends on your individual and social point of view....it IS however chaotic (or leads or is a symptom of chaos) which is not a desirable thing in society.

are you really so blindingly idiotic that you cannot see that it is entirely possible to have two societies that have totally different practices. both of who's citizens are entirely happy with there own practices yet who see the others as intrinsically evil. YET as long as those practices remain within the rules of each society things can run along happily. each society sees itself as "lawful good" and the others as "lawful evil"....

I wont bother trying to explain what the consequences of one or other then going outside of what is deemed lawful and thuse creating the concept of chatic....thats far too great a step for you....

Ass wipe.

by Ben Reilly Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:05 pm

You're wrong. Slavery is philosophically and intrinsically evil as well as being evil in any real-world example you seem to hold in such low regard Islamic State Have A Magazine Out, And It Justifies Sex Slavery 2984306523

Islamic State Have A Magazine Out, And It Justifies Sex Slavery 2984306523

If you can't see that, get out of your head and go let someone own you. Pick the nicest person you can think of and tell them you are their property.

by Guest Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:14 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:You're wrong. Slavery is philosophically and intrinsically evil as well as being evil in any real-world example you seem to hold in such low regard

how much of a cretin do you have to be to see that THAT is only your opinion...ask a roman senator (if you could) ask an Isis bod....you see THERE is the problem....there is NO universally accepted line of evil....
Chaos on the other hand.....is evident and visble in its effect doh!!!!!

moron where did I say anything about holding real world example in low regard...I said that you needed a real world example to be able to discus the philosophical point ...otherwise ...there would be no point TO discuss would there.....gawd...it stands out how little the USA's education program values the ability to actually think, as opposed to swallow doctrines without thought......no wonder you lot are a mess over there..... perhaps you should go back to school...I suggest junior grades...and try a little philosophy...

If you can't see that, get out of your head and go let someone own you. Pick the nicest person you can think of and tell them you are their property.

by Guest Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:18 pm

by veya_victaous Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:42 pm

Brasidas wrote:Funny your last picture, because that is what you actually did.

And what you were doing.... Rolling Eyes

you really don't get my sense of humour.... Cool

by Guest Tue Oct 14, 2014 10:51 pm

interesting didge....
However like most people engaged in these type of debates he uses the terms good and evil without defining either,
assuming (not actually unreasonable) that everyone knows what good and evil are....and this is simply not true.
As I keep saying good and evil are totally and irredeemably subjective (i.e depend on the observers point of view)

thus the point with slavery....we (that is you , I and most people I know) would consider slavery to be wrong for a number of reasons. However those "reasons" are not in the main due to anything other than our education (and thus POV) BUT, someone from a different time or place may well have a different POV on this.

so you have to ask.....were the romans "evil" for practicing what was.provided they actually stuck to the rules a relatively benign slavery (benign in comparison to say that practiced in america)

(and here we begin to see the point of the "good/evil as opposed to order/chaos debate. if they stuck to the rules they were perhaps (seen from an emancipated perspective) lawful evil. if they didnt they were chaotic evil.

doubless they would have seen themselves a "lawful good" or chaotic good....

good/evil is debateable
chaos/order is not and is self evident....

thus slaver is not "bad" because its "evil" (since evil is undefined) It is bad because it creates the conditions of chaos, principally for the victim, but ultimately for the society in which it is practiced. Yes it is empathically repugnant, but that is merely one aspect of the chaos that it causes.

consider this....if we lived in a world that only had good in it....how would we know when evil came along...if it didnt cause chaos.........

by Ben Reilly Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:04 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:You're wrong. Slavery is philosophically and intrinsically evil as well as being evil in any real-world example you seem to hold in such low regard

how much of a cretin do you have to be to see that THAT is only your opinion...ask a roman senator (if you could) ask an Isis bod....you see THERE is the problem....there is NO universally accepted line of evil....
Chaos on the other hand.....is evident and visble in its effect doh!!!!!

moron where did I say anything about holding real world example in low regard...I said that you needed a real world example to be able to discus the philosophical point ...otherwise ...there would be no point TO discuss would there.....gawd...it stands out how little the USA's education program values the ability to actually think, as opposed to swallow doctrines without thought......no wonder you lot are a mess over there..... perhaps you should go back to school...I suggest junior grades...and try a little philosophy...

If you can't see that, get out of your head and go let someone own you. Pick the nicest person you can think of and tell them you are their property.

Haha, you got mad ...

by veya_victaous Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:06 pm

stardesk wrote:Hi Brasidas. You know, it really does puzzle me why some people respond to your comments in a contradictory manner. Surely, based on our long tradition of good morals and ethics etc, it is evil to enslave, rape and murder innocent people? Isis have shown themselves to be utterly reprehensible and evil in the extreme, and should be exterminated by whatever means possible. They are a blight, a sore, a disease inflicting Humanity and as such should be dealt with, if needs be then by the same means they are using, violence and war.
How would we like it if by some means they were able to enter our country, in force, and start killing, raping, and enslaving?
I've said before and say again, NATO should send in thousands of troops, surround them, and exterminate them like the evil parasites they are. They do not deserve the right to called men, humans.

http://www.newsfixboard.com/t6438p50-isis-claims-to-have-beheaded-captured-us-journalist#142233

VEYA Thu Aug 21, 2014 1:39 pm wrote:While I hate Tony Abbott, I 100% support his calls to give the Kurds Military aide/assistance including 'boots on the ground'.
Besides Tony Bought all these new Toys and he can't wait to play 'pew pew games' with them

I was supporting BOOTS ON THE GROUND almost 2 months ago while didge was still saying Bombing alone would work
Me and Victor where like the only 2 in Agreement for BOOTS ON THE GROUND back then.
So don't Act like we are saying spare them we are saying remove them Clinically and DON'T inflame the situation by make broad statements about religion.

And your analysis above misses the fact that some are locals they have not entered a country, it is their country. We need to stop worrying about Turkey and the Iraq puppets we put in Gov't. Arm Up the Kurds and the Free Syria Army(IS is still getting recruits that think they are better than Assad, the Free Syria Army is made up of people that want nothing to do with either Assad or ISIS) send in SAS 'advisors' to teach them how to fight by demonstrating on ISIS members.

Putting our own grunts in will just make the same thing happen again because we are not actually "nice'' when we have military occupation of a nation, let's find the locals that will work best with us... at worst we get another Saddam(maybe a Kurdish one this time) which is still a hell of a lot better than ISIS.

by Guest Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:06 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:
victorisnotamused wrote:

Haha, you got mad ...

i refer you to the last line of my post at 9:57......

by Ben Reilly Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:08 pm

That's all right, vic. I'm sure you made some very good points in between all your ad hominem, but I don't honestly care.

by Guest Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:23 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:That's all right, vic. I'm sure you made some very good points in between all your ad hominem, but I don't honestly care.

and what you dont realise is I KNOW you dont care....

what you probably dont realise is I dont care that you dont care
I'm used to "cretinous crusaders" of all shades, R/W. L/W progressives...all much of a muchness really....
none at heart want to debate the reality of things...just their dreams.....
none want to too deeply analyze things
and none can see that they ALL piss in the same pot.....just from a different angle....

by veya_victaous Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:29 pm

victorisnotamused wrote:interesting didge....
However like most people engaged in these type of debates he uses the terms good and evil without defining either,
assuming (not actually unreasonable) that everyone knows what good and evil are....and this is simply not true.
As I keep saying good and evil are totally and irredeemably subjective (i.e depend on the observers point of view)

thus the point with slavery....we (that is you , I and most people I know) would consider slavery to be wrong for a number of reasons. However those "reasons" are not in the main due to anything other than our education (and thus POV) BUT, someone from a different time or place may well have a different POV on this.

so you have to ask.....were the romans "evil" for practicing what was.provided they actually stuck to the rules a relatively benign slavery (benign in comparison to say that practiced in america)

(and here we begin to see the point of the "good/evil as opposed to order/chaos debate. if they stuck to the rules they were perhaps (seen from an emancipated perspective) lawful evil. if they didnt they were chaotic evil.

doubless they would have seen themselves a "lawful good" or chaotic good....

good/evil is debateable
chaos/order is not and is self evident....

thus slaver is not "bad" because its "evil" (since evil is undefined) It is bad because it creates the conditions of chaos, principally for the victim, but ultimately for the society in which it is practiced. Yes it is empathically repugnant, but that is merely one aspect of the chaos that it causes.

consider this....if we lived in a world that only had good in it....how would we know when evil came along...if it didnt cause chaos.........

Disagree the condition of the slave is one of Total Order, they have no chaos cause they have no freedom. Look at Rome the Paradigm of Order while the Slave-less Celt are Often shown as Chaotic Barbarians.

Freedom is Chaos, Order is Safety.... we should seek balance

Islamic State Have A Magazine Out, And It Justifies Sex Slavery Stock-vector-yin-yang-symbol-vector-illustration-eps-all-parts-closed-possibility-to-edit-38711011

by Guest Tue Oct 14, 2014 11:36 pm

veya_victaous wrote:
victorisnotamused wrote:interesting didge....
However like most people engaged in these type of debates he uses the terms good and evil without defining either,
assuming (not actually unreasonable) that everyone knows what good and evil are....and this is simply not true.
As I keep saying good and evil are totally and irredeemably subjective (i.e depend on the observers point of view)

thus the point with slavery....we (that is you , I and most people I know) would consider slavery to be wrong for a number of reasons. However those "reasons" are not in the main due to anything other than our education (and thus POV) BUT, someone from a different time or place may well have a different POV on this.

so you have to ask.....were the romans "evil" for practicing what was.provided they actually stuck to the rules a relatively benign slavery (benign in comparison to say that practiced in america)

(and here we begin to see the point of the "good/evil as opposed to order/chaos debate. if they stuck to the rules they were perhaps (seen from an emancipated perspective) lawful evil. if they didnt they were chaotic evil.

doubless they would have seen themselves a "lawful good" or chaotic good....

good/evil is debateable
chaos/order is not and is self evident....

thus slaver is not "bad" because its "evil" (since evil is undefined) It is bad because it creates the conditions of chaos, principally for the victim, but ultimately for the society in which it is practiced. Yes it is empathically repugnant, but that is merely one aspect of the chaos that it causes.

consider this....if we lived in a world that only had good in it....how would we know when evil came along...if it didnt cause chaos.........

Disagree the condition of the slave is one of Total Order, they have no chaos cause they have no freedom. Look at Rome the Paradigm of Order while the Slave-less Celt are Often shown as Chaotic Barbarians.

Freedom is Chaos, Order is Safety.... we should seek balance

wrong veya...whilst the life of the slave may well be constrianed by order outwardly, it causes inner conflict and chaos, since the slave know there exists a "free" life.
of course in roman times it may also have been a consideration that the slave under the patronage of a "good master" may well have had a better life than a lowly status "free man" but thats not the point here....

by Ben Reilly Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:01 am

Wow, Vic. You claim good and evil are subjective opinions based on cultural context and values, yet you're going to make absolute statements about the nature of things like chaos and freedom ...

Islamic State Have A Magazine Out, And It Justifies Sex Slavery 919144451

Islamic State Have A Magazine Out, And It Justifies Sex Slavery 919144451

Actually, we don't need to wonder about these things as though they may be fundamental forces or universal truths -- it doesn't even take a human being to understand when he/she's being treated unfairly, there are many animals that demonstrate an understanding of basic fairness and cruelty. Which shows these are actually biological traits.

Study all the philosophy you want ... develop fluency in Klingon while you're at it Smile

by Guest Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:09 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:Wow, Vic. You claim good and evil are subjective opinions based on cultural context and values, yet you're going to make absolute statements about the nature of things like chaos and freedom ...

Actually, we don't need to wonder about these things as though they may be fundamental forces or universal truths -- it doesn't even take a human being to understand when he/she's being treated unfairly, there are many animals that demonstrate an understanding of basic fairness and cruelty. Which shows these are actually biological traits.

Study all the philosophy you want ... develop fluency in Klingon while you're at it

good /evil...subjective ...and proveably so
chaos/order objective truths again proveably so
fairness? by who's definition?

what actually constitutes a state of "fairness"?? subjective again.....

and is "fairness" good or evil.....subjective depending on your point of view (especially your point of view as to what constitues "fair"
hence the argument at present about britains NHS being bled dry by disease ridden foreigners who have never contributed a penny and in most likelyhood never will.....

didge seems to think its fair...and thus good

I think its NOT fair and thus evil

by veya_victaous Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:18 am

Disagree vic there is no inner chaos since there is no choice
Chaos is Options the Slave has None

the slave know there exists a "free" life where they would be free to make Choices and engage in the Chaos of Individual freedom, they are denied this by the TOTAL ORDER that is imposed on their lives.

living in total order as a Slave under a good master is the safest life to live Because it is the Least Chaotic because it is the least Free...
We exist in a society that is all about balancing Order and the 'Chaos of Freedom' we have laws to create order from the inevitable chaos that would exist if everyone for Free to do anything they pleased whenever they pleased.

Chaos is not evil, Chaos is what comes with Freedom.
Order is Safety, Order is Protection from the Chaos caused by the free will of others.

by Ben Reilly Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:29 am

Vic: Fairness is subjective (maybe a better term is "debatable") in some senses, such as the NHS, but you know you'd find it unfair if you discovered a co-worker who does the same job as you but has less experience was making double your salary. That's getting at the meaning of fairness at a level so fundamental that an illustration is a better definition than an essay.

And while two people may disagree on what's good and what's evil, it's a fallacy to suggest that they both must be right. If you avoid that fallacy, you can then start describing the universally agreed-upon characteristics of good and evil and start defining them from a more objective perspective -- even if it's still a human perspective.

For example -- can we agree that evil causes suffering? That good tends to alleviate suffering?

On a side note, and I admit this is my subjective opinion, but I think it's wise -- going too far beyond useful, working definitions of things like good and evil is really rather pointless, basically just mental masturbation.

by veya_victaous Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:31 am

Animals including Rats and dogs have been shown to have concepts of Fairness.

we sometimes confuse Fair with 'personal desire/disappointment' but people that are honest with themselves can admit when they are disappointed but the decision is fair.. some people are too immature but we are very greedy apes Wink

the NHS thing is different as that is not a universal condition but a very artificial construct, I think we can all Agree IF there were infinite resources available to the NHS then it would be 'good' to treat all the people and wrong to deny them... However there is finite resources so thus it becomes a debate not about good and bad but about 'Which good to Achieve with the resources available' do you help the foreigners or your fellow citizen first that is a matter open to debate depending on the value of nationalism, ownership and a whole range of factors.

I tend to agree that the NHS does need either significantly more funding or to start making the tough calls. as it is floundering under the weight of demand for its services

by Ben Reilly Wed Oct 15, 2014 6:48 am

And that, of course, is conceding the question of whether the anti-NHS crowd isn't simply lying.

To some people, lying for a cause is perfectly fine if the cause is "noble" enough ...

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Lying_for_Jesus

by Guest Wed Oct 15, 2014 8:11 am

stardesk wrote:Hi Brasidas. You know, it really does puzzle me why some people respond to your comments in a contradictory manner. Surely, based on our long tradition of good morals and ethics etc, it is evil to enslave, rape and murder innocent people? Isis have shown themselves to be utterly reprehensible and evil in the extreme, and should be exterminated by whatever means possible. They are a blight, a sore, a disease inflicting Humanity and as such should be dealt with, if needs be then by the same means they are using, violence and war.
How would we like it if by some means they were able to enter our country, in force, and start killing, raping, and enslaving?
I've said before and say again, NATO should send in thousands of troops, surround them, and exterminate them like the evil parasites they are. They do not deserve the right to called men, humans.

+1

by The Puzzler Wed Oct 15, 2014 12:06 pm

I love how veya's ignoring me cos he knows I've won the argument.

by Guest Wed Oct 15, 2014 7:17 pm

Ben_Reilly wrote:Vic: Fairness is subjective (maybe a better term is "debatable") in some senses, such as the NHS, but you know you'd find it unfair if you discovered a co-worker who does the same job as you but has less experience was making double your salary. That's getting at the meaning of fairness at a level so fundamental that an illustration is a better definition than an essay.

And while two people may disagree on what's good and what's evil, it's a fallacy to suggest that they both must be right. If you avoid that fallacy, you can then start describing the universally agreed-upon characteristics of good and evil and start defining them from a more objective perspective -- even if it's still a human perspective.

For example -- can we agree that evil causes suffering? That good tends to alleviate suffering?

On a side note, and I admit this is my subjective opinion, but I think it's wise -- going too far beyond useful, working definitions of things like good and evil is really rather pointless, basically just mental masturbation.

Well you would think that. lets face it, education is not for everyone under the progressive banner, wouldnt do to have the plebs thinking too deeply would it. I mean they might see through the orwellian double speak so easily deployed, and also find that the P.C newspeak they have imposed upon them really DOES stifle the expression of unapproved ideas,and the formulation of new ones... Rolling Eyes