If he lived in a Civilized nation Michael Brown would still be alive

Cases like the shooting of Michael Brown test the limits of when police can turn to their guns. But even law enforcement experts and authorities who question the shooting of Brown stand by the U.S. policy that police sometimes must open fire.

Take the case of Kajieme Powell. He was shot dead by police a few days after Brown in Missouri for reportedly carrying a small knife and acting erratically after police called to report that he had stolen some sodas and a pastry from a convenience store. Video capturing the footage from start to finish shocked Americans, but some experts say the shooting was standard American practice. “All of my training and all of my background tells me that is a justifiable police shooting against it looks like a mentally ill young man,” said David Long, a criminal justice professor who conducted firearms trainings for federal agents.

But is the current American understanding of deadly force the only option? The United Kingdom provides a strikingly different example. By the most conservative estimates, there were more than 400 shooting deaths at U.S. law enforcement hands in 2012. In the UK, that number was zero. Between 1995 and 2010, the number of UK victims of police shootings was 33. And British citizens are about 100 times less likely to be shot by police, according to the Economist.

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/08/24/3474943/why-michael-brown-likely-would-not-have-been-shot-in-the-united-kingdom/

Piss off Veya, Brown was part of The uncivilised scum bags which means the police have to carry guns in The first place.



Did you see the footage of him doing that robbery and grabbing the tiny shop keeper round the throat...???



How very civilised......!

@TM
Civilised nations like mine and yours DON'T have all those guns in the first place
we have police which the Civility not to shoot to kill and to hardly shoot at all. we have far more professional forces that are not militarised (militarisation of police normally a bad sign for civilian rights ) our cops (and yours) disarm men with knives without the need to draw their guns at all.
Brown had no weapon and was shoot multiple times.... in my country or yours that is straight up murder.
British police are literally 100 times better than US cops at not killing their own citizens.

It is true that if the officer didn't have a gun then Brown wouldn't have been shot, it is also true that The officer may have been lynched instead ....


It is this threat of superior force that keeps police in position of power to enforce the law in many circumstances.


Both UK and Australia have this option if necessary.


You could argue that if people were completely civilised and none committed crime of any sort then we wouldn't need police at all.

@TM
societies are civilised.... individual people are not

Exactly it is an option (which stats show hardly ever gets used)  but not first response to virtually every situation like it is in the USA

I agree, yeah in a perfect world their would be no crime, but the fact that the world is not perfect doesn't mean police get to behave like criminals... If police are too cowardly to accept the risk why the fuck did they join the force???

Ever think We have shit cops today because we let too many pussies on the force? not like the old days when officer hardass would take you round the back of the station and save you the criminal record. Men that commanded respect through presence.
Men that were definitely not cowards that had no problem taking a knife man down with their batons. Listen to some of the US cops "but a guy with knife can kill you from 20 feet" ... fuck me what a pussy anyone would think he wasn't packing heat     let alone emptying the clip into the guy once he is already on the ground.. that's not a police officer that is an executioner

Tommy Monk wrote:Piss off Veya, Brown was part of The uncivilised scum bags which means the police have to carry guns in The first place.

Did you see the footage of him doing that robbery and grabbing the tiny shop keeper round the throat...???

How very civilised......!

It hasn't been confirmed it was him. If it was, how does that absolve Wilson?

I am not justifying police brutality or for any of them to act outside the law.


They do a tough job in highly difficult and dangerous circumstances.



As far as I am aware this particular cop had an exemplary record.



Surely if he was just a trigger happy, cold blooded murderer and racist then he would have had countless opportunities to shoot people up over his years as a police officer.


And thinking about it, he could have been shooting people up years ago without joining the police at all.


Do you really think that he has always planned to shoot and kill a black guy but thought that he'd do it as A police officer after years of good service so as to be able to have more chance of getting away with it???



Given the hundreds, maybe thousands of opportunities he would have had to draw his weapon and fire over the years but didn't, is it not considerably more likely that something else was happening in that situation that drove him to draw and fire?



He reportedly says that he was attacked, bundled into his car and there was a struggle with the attacker/s attempting to grab his gun.



Is there any reason to doubt this?


Is it possible this happened?


Is it possible that Brown was the violent robber as shown in The video?



Is it possible that Brown panicked after being stopped, thinking that The police were onto him for this robbery (and maybe other criminal activities), and thought this was why he was being stopped, even though it wasn't, and he then tried to fight his way out of it?


Not only possible but almost certainly exactly what happened.

I think the actions of Officer Wilson are much more troubling than anything else.  He is paid to protect and serve, and in fact he killed without justification.  He did not even turn in a police report on the incident. He certainly would have do so had he had any justification. As it turns out, the county police had to fabricate a report, 8-days later, as one is required by law. They only found out that he had failed to file a report as a result of a civil subpoena filed by the ACLU. They looked and...ooops.

Not a very exemplary performance. There's a state law against filing a false police report. On the other hand, there's a state law against murder, which would be proved if he admits it in the report. His answer: don't file the report. You get the implication.

@TM
Well the record doesn't mean much

these guys didn't get a mark on their record
http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/08/25/3475205/dash-cam-shows-cops-pull-over-car-of-four-children-with-guns-drawn/

And here is another that kills a guy with a knife (obviously mental unstable) without any other attempt to control the situation out of the car and in second has put bullets into the guy. Video show that Cop is definitely in the wrong and he has got off with no even a reprimand.

We learned later that a bystander had videotaped the entire incident on his cell phone — from before the cop car pulled up to the scene, until Powell lay motionless on the ground as officers cuffed him. The video has put on full, unadulterated display what it looks like for cops to shoot a man down just seconds after arriving on the scene, without trying any other mitigating measures first. And many have expressed the sentiment that it just doesn’t look right.

But from a legal and officer training perspective, the shooting was likely in line with U.S. police practice.

On the legal question, Cornell law professor Jens David Ohlin noted that whether or not the shooting was justified is for a jury to decide. But, “If indeed he was holding a knife in his hands, a jury might very well conclude that the officer believed that he faced an imminent threat of grave bodily injury” — the standard for deadly force. “Moreover,” he added, “the jury might conclude that this believe was objectively reasonable given the facts of the situation.”

http://thinkprogress.org/justice/2014/08/22/3474562/this-police-shooting-caught-on-tape-shocked-the-nation-but-experts-say-it-was-justified/


As much as we sometimes complain about or own police forces... I take prefer to have our guys any day..

He did not resist according to all witnesses and Autopsy... he did not try and fight he had Both hands in the air when the first shots where fired, the cop then ran up to his prone on the ground body and emptied the clip into his chest.
It is the Emptying Clip into Prone man that Makes this Murder ( I don't know about the racist thing but it is America ::dunno:: ) and the Above video SHOW cops doing exactly that and saying how that is STANDARD POLICE PRACTICE. So I all likelihood it is what Darren Wilson did, what the US system has trained him to do... murder his fellow citizens.

Exemplary record aside.... how about the rest of my points?

Oh he was probably a thief but that isn't something to be shot on the street for...

bundled car thing witness say otherwise and who is to say he hasn't shot people before but without the witnesses... As quill points out there are whole lot of Wholes in the police actions following the shooting
and again it is the USA they literally have more police Fatal shootings in a day than both our nations combined over a 4 year period... so it is not limited to this one cop but the institution, selection process and training that are the real issue.

UK or Aus = ::resmahauth:: very rarely = ::gnslnger::
USA = ::rambo::

So it is entirely possible that Brown kicked off, assaulted the cop and ran.....



It has been reported that a shot was fired inside the car and that officer was treated for swollen face.

Tommy Monk wrote:So it is entirely possible that Brown kicked off, assaulted the cop and ran.....

It has been reported that a shot was fired inside the car and that officer was treated for swollen face.

The following Newsweek article is taken from the closest eyewitness to the shooting:

Newsweek wrote:But eye witnesses, including Johnson, tell a different version of events. According to Johnson, after Officer Wilson told the two men to get on the sidewalk, he slammed his brakes, put his car into reverse, and attempted to open the door of his police car. The door hit Brown and then bounced shut again. In an interview with MSNBC last week, Johnson described how Wilson reached out and grabbed Brown by the neck. The altercation became like a “tug-of-war,” with Wilson trying to pull Brown inside the car and Brown pulling away.

Wilson fired off a shot which Johnson said hit Brown. The two young men began running away. After another shot or more was fired, Johnson said his friend turned around with his hands raised in the air and said, “I don’t have a gun, stop shooting!” The officer, then facing Brown, fired several more shots and Brown fell to the ground.

The facial injury was from the door of the police car, which snapped back to the officer.  In response to his own, self-inflicted injury, Wilson then initiated a scuffle with Brown.  Brown was already hit by a bullet from Wilson's gun when he managed to get out of altercation.  

Brown then raised his hands in the air.  In cold blood, Wilson took aim and fired, killing Brown.

Kinda makes a mockery of 'to protect and serve' doesn't it?

Did it really bounce back or did Brown think police were after him for the robbery and smash it onto the officer?


The officer then dazed and under attack and outnumbered still bravely tried to grab onto Brown?



Who then continued to fight and resist arrest?



Leaving the dazed officer under attack grappling with the attacker who was resisting arrest, and in fear for his life to then draw his weapon and fire...???




Sounds very much like Brown was fighting and trying resist arrest and get away to me.


An innocent person stops and surrenders to a police officer.

Tommy Monk wrote:Did it really bounce back or did Brown think police were after him for the robbery and smash it onto the officer?

The officer then dazed and under attack and outnumbered still bravely tried to grab onto Brown?

Who then continued to fight and resist arrest?

Leaving the dazed officer under attack grappling with the attacker who was resisting arrest, and in fear for his life to then draw his weapon and fire...???

Sounds very much like Brown was fighting and trying resist arrest and get away to me.

An innocent person stops and surrenders to a police officer.

The eyewitness evidence is to the contrary, Tommy. Wilson injured himself with the car door. He then grabbed on to Brown with the apparent intent of killing him. A shot was fired in the vehicle, which hit Brown. Wilson eventually managed to murder Brown as he was about 25 ft. away, holding up his hands.

One man's word against how many? Hundreds? Yet Wilson still walks around, free as you please.

Small wonder they've got trouble in River City.

How many times do you think the cop has jumped out that car door...???



Hundreds???


Thousands????





Highly unlikely that he was inept at opening a car door and jumping out.



More likely Brown or his mate shoved it back onto the officer.




Even if it did just bounce back which I don't believe for a minute, why didn't brown and mate just stand there and surrender?



It is clear they were resisting arrest and trying to get away.

Tommy Monk wrote:How many times do you think the cop has jumped out that car door...???

Hundreds???

Thousands????

Highly unlikely that he was inept at opening a car door and jumping out.

More likely Brown or his mate shoved it back onto the officer.

Even if it did just bounce back which I don't believe for a minute, why didn't brown and mate just stand there and surrender?

It is clear they were resisting arrest and trying to get away.

You are making the points for me, Tommy.  Wilson was hot under the collar...beside himself...not thinking straight, and he disregarded all of his training.  That he lost control of the car door is only a small part of the problem.  He lost control of himself.

That the car door bounced back and slapped him in the side of the head probably exacerbated his anger, but the simple fact is that he is in a business that requires a cool head, and a working brain.  He didn't have that.

From there, race enters the picture.  How come this never happens in the white neighborhoods?  How come cops don't shoot and hit white kids at 25-feet, in the top of the head, when their hands are raised?

And like I said...now they got big trouble in River City.

I don't believe he lost control of The door or it just bounced back on its own.



That is assaulting a police officer.



He then continued to try to perform an arrest and this was resisted.



Maybe in other places the people don't assault the police officers.... but just do as they are told when stopped for breaking the law..... just a thought...

Tommy Monk wrote:I don't believe he lost control of The door or it just bounced back on its own.



That is assaulting a police officer.



He then continued to try to perform an arrest and this was resisted.



Maybe in other places the people don't assault the police officers.... but just do as they are told when stopped for breaking the law..... just a thought...

And if the Police officer was black and the victim white, would your view points change?

100% they would, this always about your racist view points against blacks where all evidence proves this clearly was nothing short of murder and if the racial aspect had been reversed you would be shouting murder.

That is a fact

Tommy Monk wrote:I don't believe he lost control of The door or it just bounced back on its own.

That is assaulting a police officer.

He then continued to try to perform an arrest and this was resisted.

Maybe in other places the people don't assault the police officers.... but just do as they are told when stopped for breaking the law..... just a thought...

You're good Tommy.  Ever consider hiring yourself out as a ghost writer for police reports.

Because, that's what is missing in this case.  A police report.  Without a police report, everything--every spin you put on events--is without a statement even by the perp cop.  I'm sure had he written a police report, he would have said much of what you say.  But he didn't even stop to write one.  Couldn't be bothered, I guess.

Same thing.  People will write their own police reports...in their heads.  We've heard it all before, so we know what they say: ...and this flying saucer came down, and the little green man shot at me with his green ray gun, but he missed...  Ooops...wrong script....lemme check the fiction file again.

We all know what went on, Tommy. There are witnesses. The cop didn't even bother to write up a report. That says something: either the all-white jury will knee-jerk up a story, just as you did, or he'll not even get indicted. I'm betting on the latter.

Didge wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:I don't believe he lost control of The door or it just bounced back on its own.
That is assaulting a police officer.
He then continued to try to perform an arrest and this was resisted.
Maybe in other places the people don't assault the police officers.... but just do as they are told when stopped for breaking the law..... just a thought...

And if the Police officer was black and the victim white, would your view points change?
100% they would, this always about your racist view points against blacks where all evidence proves this clearly was nothing short of murder and if the racial aspect had been reversed you would be shouting murder.
That is a fact

NO my viewpoints would not change..... but I bet everybody else's would who are blowing this up into a big racist story!!!!



You wouldn't be hearing anything about it if colour was reversed!!!


(Don't forget that 90% of ALL victims of interracial crimes are whites in America and you never hear anything about that.)



It would just be the non story that it really is.


Except the black police officer would definately be getting believed as the victim and probably a victim of racism too!!!


The dead white guy would be believed to be a violent thug with the evidence of The store robbery showing him grabbing the little shop keeper proving it.



And quill, you are saying he didn't write report.... most likely either he did and the police are just not releasing it or he was told not to.

Tommy Monk wrote:

Didge wrote:
And if the Police officer was black and the victim white, would your view points change?
100% they would, this always about your racist view points against blacks where all evidence proves this clearly was nothing short of murder and if the racial aspect had been reversed you would be shouting murder.
That is a fact

NO my viewpoints would not change..... but I bet everybody else's would who are blowing this up into a big racist story!!!!
You wouldn't be hearing anything about it if colour was reversed!!!
(Don't forget that 90% of ALL victims of interracial crimes are whites in America and you never hear anything about that.)
It would just be the non story that it really is.
Except the black police officer would definately be getting believed as the victim and probably a victim of racism too!!!
The dead white guy would be believed to be a violent thug with the evidence of The store robbery showing him grabbing the little shop keeper proving it.
And quill, you are saying he didn't write report.... most likely either he did and the police are just not releasing it or he was told not to.

I bet you any money the black officer would have been arrested and that is the difference you fail to see, which is clearly the case you would be screaming murder if the victim was white, even all your answers are speculative bullshit based on a belief you find the officer innocent which is obvious to anyone, in fact you seem hell bent on making the most wild accusations which have no bases to try and prove the officers innocence which you always do, where all testimony points to the officer being guilty.

We wouldn't be hearing anything about it if the colours were reversed and you know it as well as I do.

Really?
When all evidence points to doscrmination against blacks in the US. You really are so niave

90% of ALL interracial crimes in USA are against whites.....




Blacks are hugely criminal in USA.


They only make up about 13% of population but make up about 50% of prison and disproportionately responsible for crime.

Tommy Monk wrote:90% of ALL interracial crimes in USA are against whites.....
Blacks are hugely criminal in USA.
They only make up about 13% of population but make up about 50% of prison and disproportionately responsible for crime.

Are they, how many Blacks have committed crimes?
How many blacks have really committed crimes?
What is the comparison on stop and search?
White are for example more prolific drug users and yet whites are stopped less, that is discrimination and proves you have not the first clue what you are talking about from sentencing to arrests proving this was always about your racial views, as you have now deflected from this case to make your racial views known on blacks.


Busted

1. African-Americans comprise 13% of the U.S. population and 14% of the monthly drug users, but 37% of the people arrested for drug-related offenses in America.
2. Studies show that police are more likely to pull over and frisk blacks or Latinos than whites. In New York City, 80% of the stops made were blacks and Latinos, and 85% of those people were frisked, compared to a mere 8% of the white people stopped. Host a poetry slam to educate others on racism and reduce prejudice in your community. Sign up for Slam Racism.
3. After being arrested, African-Americans are 33% more likely than whites to be detained while facing a felony trial in New York.
4. In 2010, the U.S. Sentencing Commission reported that African Americans receive 10% longer sentences than whites through the federal system for the same crimes.
5. In 2009 African-Americans are 21% more likely than whites to receive mandatory minimum sentences and 20% more likely to be sentenced to prison than white drug defendants.
6. In a 2009 report, 2/3 of the criminals receiving life sentences were non-whites. In New York, it is 83%.
7. African Americans make up 57% of the people in state prisons for drug offenses.
8. The U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics concluded that an African American male born in 2001 had a 32% chance of going to jail in his lifetime, while a Latino male has a 17% chance, and a white male only 6%.
9. In 2012, 51% of Americans expressed anti-black sentiments in a poll; a 3% increase from 2008.
10. A survey in 2011 revealed that 52% of non-Hispanic whites expressed anti-Hispanic attitudes.


All the evidence you need to prove and show the problem of discrimination in the US

90% of The victims of ALL inter racial crimes are white.


We know who the real racists are.




Blacks are by far responsible for most crime.


Is it any wonder why they are stopped more?


Pathetic dodge.

And a drug user would also include a middle age respectable woman who had a few valium every now and then.


Hardly at the forefront of crime but included in your twisted figures.

Tommy Monk wrote:90% of The victims of ALL inter racial crimes are white.
We know who the real racists are.
Blacks are by far responsible for most crime.
Is it any wonder why they are stopped more?
Pathetic dodge.

No as seen you are, where I clearly proved you turn this case with deflection into your racial views on blacks, where as seen the stats in America prove the discrimination they face with crime, arrests and sentencing.

Exposed

Tommy Monk wrote:And a drug user would also include a middle age respectable woman who had a few valium every now and then.


Hardly at the forefront of crime but included in your twisted figures.

Ha ha ha ha

That really was funny and proves how naive and how little you understand

Plus the fact you don't know how many or who is a drug user so your figures are pure speculation and bogus.

Tommy Monk wrote:Plus the fact you don't know how many or who is a drug user so your figures are pure speculation and bogus.

Really?

As seen again you are very much mistaken given stats were given already on this, where the point they should decriminalize drugs anyway. You would then see the numbers of blacks dramatically decrease incarcerated, being as already seen how badly they are discriminated on this

So why all the interest in Holding police officer to higher standards than street gangs

Tommy Monk wrote:Plus the fact you don't know how many or who is a drug user so your figures are pure speculation and bogus.

As an American citizen, I wholeheartedly oppose the idea that drug users deserve to be murdered in the streets by our police. I know -- crazy talk! But I firmly believe that anybody accused of committing any crime deserves their day in court. Little thing we call civilization ...

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Piss off Veya, Brown was part of The uncivilised scum bags which means the police have to carry guns in The first place.

Did you see the footage of him doing that robbery and grabbing the tiny shop keeper round the throat...???

How very civilised......!

It hasn't been confirmed it was him.  If it was, how does that absolve Wilson?

TOMMY M. doesn't know whether it was him or not; Nor does he care in the slightest...

TM will obviously and blatantly lie off his face, merely to back his racist, xenophobic and anti-social agendas..

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:
Plus the fact you don't know how many or who is a drug user so your figures are pure speculation and bogus.

As an American citizen, I wholeheartedly oppose the idea that drug users deserve to be murdered in the streets by our police. I know -- crazy talk! But I firmly believe that anybody accused of committing any crime deserves their day in court. Little thing we call civilization ...

THE ONLY thing "bogus" in TM's comments are his actual opinions, in and of themselves.

IF an Australian tourist visits the USA, he/she has 153 times the chance of being shot by an American cop (or a "concealed carry" bystander..) then by an Aussie cop (who carries the same weapons as the NYPD, by the by..) back home down here in Oz...

Didge wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:
And a drug user would also include a middle age respectable woman who had a few valium every now and then.

Hardly at the forefront of crime but included in your twisted figures.

Ha ha ha ha

That really was funny and proves how naive and how little you understand

TOMMY M. is determined to maintain his proud position as the stupidest and most clueless member
on this forum...

I DON'T see anyone even wanting to challenge him for that dubious honour..

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Plus the fact you don't know how many or who is a drug user so your figures are pure speculation and bogus.

As an American citizen, I wholeheartedly oppose the idea that drug users deserve to be murdered in the streets by our police. I know -- crazy talk! But I firmly believe that anybody accused of committing any crime deserves their day in court. Little thing we call civilization ...

I don't remember ever having said that drug users should be murdered in The street or that anybody accused of any crime doesn't deserve to go to court.....

And I see flea keeper is again unable to debate the points raised......


What a twat!

Tommy Monk wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Plus the fact you don't know how many or who is a drug user so your figures are pure speculation and bogus.

As an American citizen, I wholeheartedly oppose the idea that drug users deserve to be murdered in the streets by our police. I know -- crazy talk! But I firmly believe that anybody accused of committing any crime deserves their day in court. Little thing we call civilization ...

I don't remember ever having said that drug users should be murdered in The street or that anybody accused of any crime doesn't deserve to go to court.....

No, you don't come right out and say that. You just (like the rest of the right wing) character assassinate the victims of police killings as though they somehow got what was coming to them ...