'Dogs Allowed, Jews Stay Out' Says Belgium Cafe

A Belgian cafe that displayed a sign saying: 'Dogs allowed but Jews are banned' is facing legal action from an anti-Semitism monitoring group.

The sign was written on the widow of the cafe in the Liege suburb, in both French and Turkish.

In French it said: "Dogs are allowed in, but Zionists are not in any circumstances." But in Turkish, the sign specifically said that Jews were banned, using the word 'Yahudi'.

A Palestinian flag can be seen hanging in the window, next to an Israeli flag with a red cross through it.


The Belgian League Against Anti-Semitism wrote on its Facebook wall that it had reported the cafe to the local mayor, and would also file a criminal complaint.

“LBCA will file in the coming hours a criminal complaint with the Liege prosecutor over the actions of those responsible for this violation of the July 30 law against racism and xenophobia of 1981,” LBCA said in a statement on their Facebook page.

The Jewish Telegraphic Agency, a Jewish news agency, reported that Saint-Nicolas Mayor Jacques Heleven sent police to give a warning to the cafe, and the sign was removed.

Jews in Europe have reported a huge surge in anti-Semitic rhetoric and vandalism in the past fortnight, because of Israel's offensive in the Gaza Strip.

Last weekend, extremist groups burned and vandalised Jewish shops and businesses in the Sarcelles suburb of Paris, with police fighting back demonstrators with tear gas and rubber bullet. Clashes also took place between pro-Israel and pro-Palestinian demonstrators in Germany and Italy, as well as France and Belgium.

Israel's ambassador to Germany, Yakov Hadas-Handelsman, said he had seen categorically anti-Semitic statements on banners held at pro-Palestinian protests. "They pursue the Jews in the streets of Berlin… as if we were in 1938," he said in an article for the Berliner Zeitung.

Hadas-Handelsman said he had heard chants of "Jewish pigs" and "Gas the Jews" at a protest in the capital. "Since March 2012, I am ambassador of Israel in Germany. If someone had told me that I witnessed such hateful, incites hatred and anti-Semitic phenomena would be in public in this country, I would not probably have thought it possible," he wrote.

There are around 42,000 Jews currently living in Belgium, with almost half residing in Antwerp, mostly strictly Orthodox Hassidic Jews.

In May, a random gunman killed four people outside the Jewish museum in Brussels with a handgun and a Kalashnikov, three of whom died at the scene with the fourth dying later in hospital. Mehdi Nemmouche, a French citizen widely believed to have spent time training in Syria, is suspected of the murders, arrested in possession of weapons, ammunition, and a video of himself claiming responsibility for the May 24 murders.

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2014/07/26/dogs-jews-belgian-cafe_n_5623108.html?utm_hp_ref=uk

Nemmouche is a Franco Algerian who is a Jihadist as well.  All recents events in Paris have involved radicalised, French of North African origin.  The increase in antisemitism in Europe coincide with the civil war in Syria and the shelling of Gaza

Such attitudes--in Europe, no less--justify the hard, but schooled vigilance of Israel...such as in Gaza.  Never again is not just a memory or a vacuous slogan.  

No, Nazism isn't over any more than racism is ended in the South of the US.

Original Quill wrote:Such attitudes--in Europe, no less--justify the hard, but schooled vigilance of Israel...such as in Gaza.  Never again is not just a memory or a vacuous slogan.  

No, Nazism isn't over any more than racism is ended in the South of the US.

Bang on the money Quill.

Original Quill wrote:Such attitudes--in Europe, no less--justify the hard, but schooled vigilance of Israel...such as in Gaza.  Never again is not just a memory or a vacuous slogan.  

No, Nazism isn't over any more than racism is ended in the South of the US.

Absolutely Quill absolutely!

You guys are kidding? You think this anti-Semitism, itself a reaction to Israeli brutality, Justifies the murder of over 1000 Palestinians?!

Eilzel wrote:You guys are kidding? You think this anti-Semitism, itself a reaction to Israeli brutality, Justifies the murder of over 1000 Palestinians?!

Who said that Eilzel?
The factis whether it be Muslim or Jewish, where actions happen in the world people use such events to thrive in tat hate to commit violence and you know I deplore any violence at any innocent Muslim and this is the same thing. NO action by Israel should justify any violence to any Jew and even worse to equate this to the civilians is low Eilzel which has fuck all to do with Jews being targeted because of the actions of the Israeli government, where innocent people have died in Palestine is wrong on your part to even think anyone associates that, for fuck sake.
Anyway have sent you a PM, as you need to know something

Quill's post said 'attitudes such as this...justify the hard vigilance of Israel in Gaza'.

You agreed.

I did not say any Jew should be targeted as a result of the Israeli government's actions.

Eilzel wrote:Quill's post said 'attitudes such as this...justify the hard vigilance of Israel in Gaza'.

You agreed.

I did not say any Jew should be targeted as a result of the Israeli government's actions.

What Quill said sadly is true, there is no denying this with some of the attitudes by some, what the fuck is wrong with saying that?

Didge wrote:

Eilzel wrote:Quill's post said 'attitudes such as this...justify the hard vigilance of Israel in Gaza'.

You agreed.

I did not say any Jew should be targeted as a result of the Israeli government's actions.

What Quill said sadly is true, there is no denying this with some of the attitudes by some, what the fuck is wrong with saying that?

I'm not saying such attitudes don't exist. What I'm saying is they don't justify the extent of Israeli actions in Gaza. Which he implied when he said they "justify the hard vigilance of Israel in Gaza."

guys there is wrong doing on both sides.

what this cafe did was way out if order though. He could have protested in a more appropriate way.

Quill there have been many instances - too many to list - of hate crimes and marches and of similar attitudes towards Arabs in Europe. ive seen it myself in Germany, France, Netherlands and Cyprus.

lets not forget that anti-semetic originally meant discrimination against people from the middle east/Arabic world to include Jews.

Eilzel wrote:

Didge wrote:


What Quill said sadly is true, there is no denying this with some of the attitudes by some, what the fuck is wrong with saying that?

I'm not saying such attitudes don't exist. What I'm saying is they don't justify the extent of Israeli actions in Gaza. Which he implied when he said they "justify the hard vigilance of Israel in Gaza."

You will always have people on both sides justify any action, you see it here with some trying to excuse Hamas firing rockets at Israel, not only is this a crime against humanity but shows how such conflicts allow people to wrongly justify what is for all intents and purposes a terrorist action. If you looked at this without any view point on who is involved and just read what happened you would condemn both sides, but more importantly you would condemn the side that breaks every truce by being underhanded more than you would off the back of the ratio of civilian casualties, the later plays on your conscious to cloud you giving a rational view point in my opinion

Eilzel wrote:You guys are kidding? You think this anti-Semitism, itself a reaction to Israeli brutality, Justifies the murder of over 1000 Palestinians?!

Les, let's keep things in perspective.  The death of Palestinians is the product of a war, not any specific intent.  It is not Israel that is brutal, but war itself that is merciless.  

The war is the result of Hamas' determination to light off missiles into Israel...over 1,300 to date.  In response, Israel is good at combat, to be sure...but that shouldn't be held against them in the face of clear provocation.  It is expected...there is no basis for outrage in a wartime situation.  Sadness, yes...but outrage, no.

My comment, I still embrace.  The greater picture--the reason why Israel is so good--is because they have learned what it is to be docile and pliant.  Never again!, is what they have come up with.  Israel is tough, and that is because shock and awe has always been the way to win wars.  Britain taught that lesson in Dresden, as did Japan in Pearl Harbor and the US in Nagasaki.  Now, amid a new force in media, the game changes.  Does it pay for us to become victims again?

Ask yourself, to what does the game change?  It's time to be smarter.  This is not the time to be saying, Oh, they all do it! or ...they are all to blame.  It's time to reason.  We all know that Iran is behind this whole thing...they stand behind it, but aside from the consequences of it.  So, in essence, Israel faces a new enemy.

A certain cafe owner in Paris--a hate-monger--reminds us of what?  To be vigilant, not brutal. The question is not, Will Israel get away with this? The question, for the whole world, is Will Iran be able to pull the wool over our eyes? Never again! should always mean, keep your eyes open and your senses about you.

well said quill.

Right.

Dresden didn't win WWII.
Pearl Harbour was a disaster in the end for Japan.
Nagasaki was hit with an atomic bomb, slightly different.

Shock and awe just breeds more hate for an ultra aggressive state and gets the aggressor no where good in the end (Iraq worked out fine eh....).

You have a far too fixed and militaristic view where Israel is concerned Quill, I guess a country with Dubbya as figure head for 8 years will have an effect on some.

Eilzel wrote:Right.

Dresden didn't win WWII.
Pearl Harbour was a disaster in the end for Japan.
Nagasaki was hit with an atomic bomb, slightly different.

Shock and awe just breeds more hate for an ultra aggressive state and gets the aggressor no where good in the end (Iraq worked out fine eh....).

You have a far too fixed and militaristic view where Israel is concerned Quill, I guess a country with Dubbya as figure head for 8 years will have an effect on some.

GWB is not the right symbol for Judaism in the US, Les. Most Jews in the US are rabid leftists and strongly Democratic. Israel stands apart from the normal lessons we are used to in ideology. We can not brand them just because they are good at militarism, any more that we should brand them as weak and useless because of WWII.

Israel is the product of good sense. They tried being meek and compliant...it didn't work. Now, they are being strong. That has it's limitations, as we see. The trick is to get it right.

Iran is teaching a new lesson. We need to get that right. But it's going to require the greater world...this is not Israel's problem alone. And you guys in Europe better wake up.

Eilzel wrote:Right.

Dresden didn't win WWII.
Pearl Harbour was a disaster in the end for Japan.
Nagasaki was hit with an atomic bomb, slightly different.

Shock and awe just breeds more hate for an ultra aggressive state and gets the aggressor no where good in the end (Iraq worked out fine eh....).

You have a far too fixed and militaristic view where Israel is concerned Quill, I guess a country with Dubbya as figure head for 8 years will have an effect on some.

I have to say Eilzel that is a poor argument, as what hate came from Japan after they surrendered
I agree on over kill with Dresden where that was though to target anything but that is poor to claim that is the same with Israel today, because if that was the case there would be 10k plus casualties with the amount of attacks thrown at them.
You allow the casualties of one side to plague with guilt in this and not what is the reality of the actual conflict, what should Israel do, nothing?
Should it turn the other cheek, when many have sworn to wipe them out? Do not get me wrong their tactics are poor and the casualties to not justify any conflict, but Israel has always had people trying to extinguish them and that is a fact

Eilzel wrote:You guys are kidding? You think this anti-Semitism, itself a reaction to Israeli brutality, Justifies the murder of over 1000 Palestinians?!

hey Mr E x
I am not saying that at all.  What I am saying is that there are wrongs on both sides  

AND brutality and killings on both sides should STOP!    

Original Quill wrote:Such attitudes--in Europe, no less--justify the hard, but schooled vigilance of Israel...such as in Gaza.  Never again is not just a memory or a vacuous slogan.  

No, Nazism isn't over any more than racism is ended in the South of the US.

Irony that IDFism is the same and alive and well in the middle east... STOP THE GENOCIDE OF PALESTINIANS

Didge wrote:

Eilzel wrote:Right.

Dresden didn't win WWII.
Pearl Harbour was a disaster in the end for Japan.
Nagasaki was hit with an atomic bomb, slightly different.

Shock and awe just breeds more hate for an ultra aggressive state and gets the aggressor no where good in the end (Iraq worked out fine eh....).

You have a far too fixed and militaristic view where Israel is concerned Quill, I guess a country with Dubbya as figure head for 8 years will have an effect on some.

I have to say Eilzel that is a poor argument, as what hate came from Japan after they surrendered
I agree on over kill with Dresden where that was though to target anything but that is poor to claim that is the same with Israel today, because if that was the case there would be 10k plus casualties with the amount of attacks thrown at them.
You allow the casualties of one side to plague with guilt in this and not what is the reality of the actual conflict, what should Israel do, nothing?
Should it turn the other cheek, when many have sworn to wipe them out? Do not get me wrong their tactics are poor and the casualties to not justify any conflict, but Israel has always had people trying to extinguish them and that is a fact

DIDGES pure propaganda

making up numbers from a make believe world

Hey didge why don't we try the real numbers from this real world.

22 Palestinians 16 of which are civilians for every Israel SOLIDER killed

800 Palestinians civilians deaths for 4 Israel civilian deaths... Israel's War crime magnitude is 200 times Hamas war crime magnitude
BOTH commit war crimes but Israel is more than 10 fold on the atrocities.

Says the UN, says Amnesty international, Says the Humans rights commission, 3 organisation that have proven themselves to not be anti-Semitic and to have the interest of Humanity at heart.

Mankind will never get better as long as people make justification for crimes against humanity, just because they are committed by the side the west politically prefers... Justice must be even handed.... Israel has caused 200 innocent deaths fro every one Hamas has caused.

Original Quill wrote:

Eilzel wrote:Right.

Dresden didn't win WWII.
Pearl Harbour was a disaster in the end for Japan.
Nagasaki was hit with an atomic bomb, slightly different.

Shock and awe just breeds more hate for an ultra aggressive state and gets the aggressor no where good in the end (Iraq worked out fine eh....).

You have a far too fixed and militaristic view where Israel is concerned Quill, I guess a country with Dubbya as figure head for 8 years will have an effect on some.

GWB is not the right symbol for Judaism  in the US, Les.  Most Jews in the US are rabid leftists and strongly Democratic.  Israel stands apart from the normal lessons we are used to in ideology.  We can not brand them just because they are good at militarism, any more that we should brand them as weak and useless because of WWII.

Israel is the product of good sense.  They tried being meek and compliant...it didn't work.  Now, they are being strong.  That has it's limitations, as we see.  The trick is to get it right.

Iran is teaching a new lesson.  We need to get that right.  But it's going to require the greater world...this is not Israel's problem alone.  And you guys in Europe better wake up.

I'm sure Hitler felt the same when when he ditched the restraints of Versailles and built up the German army again- meek and compliant didn't work so Germany would be strong again...

I didn't use GWB as a symbol for Jews, the comparison was the compulsion to military over kill and fascination with 'shock and awe' as any sort of good tactic.

Didge wrote:

Eilzel wrote:Right.

Dresden didn't win WWII.
Pearl Harbour was a disaster in the end for Japan.
Nagasaki was hit with an atomic bomb, slightly different.

Shock and awe just breeds more hate for an ultra aggressive state and gets the aggressor no where good in the end (Iraq worked out fine eh....).

You have a far too fixed and militaristic view where Israel is concerned Quill, I guess a country with Dubbya as figure head for 8 years will have an effect on some.

I have to say Eilzel that is a poor argument, as what hate came from Japan after they surrendered
I agree on over kill with Dresden where that was though to target anything but that is poor to claim that is the same with Israel today, because if that was the case there would be 10k plus casualties with the amount of attacks thrown at them.
You allow the casualties of one side to plague with guilt in this and not what is the reality of the actual conflict, what should Israel do, nothing?
Should it turn the other cheek, when many have sworn to wipe them out? Do not get me wrong their tactics are poor and the casualties to not justify any conflict, but Israel has always had people trying to extinguish them and that is a fact

I don't say Israel should turn the other cheek, but retaliate in proportion and seek a diplomatic solution, stop treating Gaza as an isolated prison and stop with the illegal settlements!

Eilzel wrote:

Didge wrote:


I have to say Eilzel that is a poor argument, as what hate came from Japan after they surrendered
I agree on over kill with Dresden where that was though to target anything but that is poor to claim that is the same with Israel today, because if that was the case there would be 10k plus casualties with the amount of attacks thrown at them.
You allow the casualties of one side to plague with guilt in this and not what is the reality of the actual conflict, what should Israel do, nothing?
Should it turn the other cheek, when many have sworn to wipe them out? Do not get me wrong their tactics are poor and the casualties to not justify any conflict, but Israel has always had people trying to extinguish them and that is a fact

I don't say Israel should turn the other cheek, but retaliate in proportion and seek a diplomatic solution, stop treating Gaza as an isolated prison and stop with the illegal settlements!

Easier said than done, Les. How do you tell people who are being shot at to look for a diplomatic solution?

I do think the world community could come together, stop the missiles, and ease up the pressure on Gaza. She is being smothered. But, that will only happen when Hamas is out of there.

veya_victaous wrote:

Didge wrote:


I have to say Eilzel that is a poor argument, as what hate came from Japan after they surrendered
I agree on over kill with Dresden where that was though to target anything but that is poor to claim that is the same with Israel today, because if that was the case there would be 10k plus casualties with the amount of attacks thrown at them.
You allow the casualties of one side to plague with guilt in this and not what is the reality of the actual conflict, what should Israel do, nothing?
Should it turn the other cheek, when many have sworn to wipe them out? Do not get me wrong their tactics are poor and the casualties to not justify any conflict, but Israel has always had people trying to extinguish them and that is a fact

DIDGES pure propaganda

making up numbers from a make believe world

Hey didge why don't we try the real numbers from this real world.

22 Palestinians 16 of which are civilians for every Israel SOLIDER killed

800 Palestinians civilians deaths for 4 Israel civilian deaths... Israel's War crime magnitude is 200 times Hamas war crime magnitude
BOTH commit war crimes but Israel is more than 10 fold on the atrocities.

Says the UN, says Amnesty international, Says the Humans rights commission, 3 organisation that have proven themselves to not be anti-Semitic and to have the interest of Humanity at heart.

Mankind will never get better as long as people make justification for crimes against humanity, just because they are committed by the side the west politically prefers...  Justice must be even handed....  Israel has caused 200 innocent deaths fro every one Hamas has caused.

You see Veya this is why you should not even get involved in these debates if you post bull, the worst part being your clueless understanding and the concept of war, even more so with Hamas creating the situation which has caused so many civilian deaths. Amnesty international are also clueless when it comes to the understanding of conflicts. The biggest crime against Palestine is Hamas itself. So let me ask you a couple of simple questions.

Why has Hamas never built any bomb shelters?

Why does Hamas continue to violate every ceasefire?

Eilzel wrote:

Didge wrote:


I have to say Eilzel that is a poor argument, as what hate came from Japan after they surrendered
I agree on over kill with Dresden where that was though to target anything but that is poor to claim that is the same with Israel today, because if that was the case there would be 10k plus casualties with the amount of attacks thrown at them.
You allow the casualties of one side to plague with guilt in this and not what is the reality of the actual conflict, what should Israel do, nothing?
Should it turn the other cheek, when many have sworn to wipe them out? Do not get me wrong their tactics are poor and the casualties to not justify any conflict, but Israel has always had people trying to extinguish them and that is a fact

I don't say Israel should turn the other cheek, but retaliate in proportion and seek a diplomatic solution, stop treating Gaza as an isolated prison and stop with the illegal settlements!

Sorry Eilzel but how do you retaliate in proportion?
Israel's whole history has been one of defending its existence, where nations have vowed to destroy it, which is why Israel has been geared up to one of the few nations where its people are geared up on a constant war footing, a tad like Sparta in a way and it has had to do this because of being constantly attacked and with threats by Arab nations to obliterate them,
The settlements are wrong, nobody has denied this, in fact in not one argument apart from smelly has anyone claimed they are right, but again they are the by-product of defense again from these constant wars, if you think about it this is also true and it is also true that this has come about from stupid religious Zionist bull.

So how and what is proportion, when you have an extremist organisation who's intent is your extermination?

Didge wrote:

veya_victaous wrote:

Didge wrote:


I have to say Eilzel that is a poor argument, as what hate came from Japan after they surrendered
I agree on over kill with Dresden where that was though to target anything but that is poor to claim that is the same with Israel today, because if that was the case there would be 10k plus casualties with the amount of attacks thrown at them.
You allow the casualties of one side to plague with guilt in this and not what is the reality of the actual conflict, what should Israel do, nothing?
Should it turn the other cheek, when many have sworn to wipe them out? Do not get me wrong their tactics are poor and the casualties to not justify any conflict, but Israel has always had people trying to extinguish them and that is a fact

DIDGES pure propaganda

making up numbers from a make believe world

Hey didge why don't we try the real numbers from this real world.

22 Palestinians 16 of which are civilians for every Israel SOLIDER killed

800 Palestinians civilians deaths for 4 Israel civilian deaths... Israel's War crime magnitude is 200 times Hamas war crime magnitude
BOTH commit war crimes but Israel is more than 10 fold on the atrocities.

Says the UN, says Amnesty international, Says the Humans rights commission, 3 organisation that have proven themselves to not be anti-Semitic and to have the interest of Humanity at heart.

Mankind will never get better as long as people make justification for crimes against humanity, just because they are committed by the side the west politically prefers...  Justice must be even handed....  Israel has caused 200 innocent deaths fro every one Hamas has caused.

You see Veya this is why you should not even get involved in these debates if you post bull, the worst part being your clueless understanding and the concept of war, even more so with Hamas creating the situation which has caused so many civilian deaths. Amnesty international are also clueless when it comes to the understanding of conflicts. The biggest crime against Palestine is Hamas itself. So let me ask you a couple of simple questions.

Why has Hamas never built any bomb shelters?
it called being Blockaded by Israel and Egypt pretty fucking obvious to any one that was being realistic about what a group with the resources of Hamas is capable of.

Why does Hamas continue to violate every ceasefire?

Why does Israel?




AND
How DOES HAMAS actions in anyway reduce the severity of the war crimes being committed by Israel?????

You see there is the point
Hamas 2 bit organisation with very limited capacity.
IDF full on mechanised military with complete access to import what ever resources required.

IT DOES NOT MATTER WHAT HAMAS DOES!!!! that has not effect on the fact that Israel is committing Genocide and war crimes.

AND Amnesty Clearly says Hamas shouldn't be putting Rockets neat civilians but even it concedes it doesn't have a lot of option and Amnesty international Say that IDF is causing 10 time more atrocities than HAMAS!!!

You Should stop LYING ZIONIST Propagandist... Your 50 year old propaganda strategies will not work on People that can access and assess Information
I can fucking Count and use numbers Which you Cannot provide because they will show how much you are lying ;''

You keep literally using Make believe figures from a world which does not exist to try and Justify Israel Committing Genocide.

FACT ISRAEL HAS KILLED 200 times more civilians than Hamas.


Again all you prove is how deep your prejudices are
200 Palestinians for 1 Israeli and you are STILL SAY it is even
FUCK YOU DIDGE
ON BEHALF OF REASONABLE PERSON
FUCK YOU
how dare you try and justify Your Fucked up racist opinion that 200 Palestinians CIVILIANS are worth 1 Israeli Civilian

You should stop talking NOT me because you obviously have No Idea how to FUCKING COUNT... And You obviously Don't believe Humans lives are equal or worth the Same... And for that I repeat FUCK YOU.

Your Opinion and arguments ARE EXACTLY those used by Nazi Appeasers. You might want another Holocaust (just against Palestinians this time) But the DECENT people of this world will try and prevent it for happening to ANY ONE and will not Let some Group do it Because they have come CLOSE extinction does not mean they can WIPE out someone else with impunity .

Utterly clueless and fails to understand the point with now daft claims of racism and more claims to Nazism, go away you pathetic child if you cannot have an adult debate here, this is why you are fucking clueless Veya and a complete idiot, happy for you to show otherwise, but if you persist with idiotic claims and call me a Nazi, when you have not the first clue about Nazism again, I will continue to ridicule your utter stupidity



Your choice

Again here are the questions you failed to answer:

Why has Hamas never built any bomb shelters?

Why does Hamas continue to violate every ceasefire?

Eilzel wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

GWB is not the right symbol for Judaism  in the US, Les.  Most Jews in the US are rabid leftists and strongly Democratic.  Israel stands apart from the normal lessons we are used to in ideology.  We can not brand them just because they are good at militarism, any more that we should brand them as weak and useless because of WWII.

Israel is the product of good sense.  They tried being meek and compliant...it didn't work.  Now, they are being strong.  That has it's limitations, as we see.  The trick is to get it right.

Iran is teaching a new lesson.  We need to get that right.  But it's going to require the greater world...this is not Israel's problem alone.  And you guys in Europe better wake up.

I'm sure Hitler felt the same when when he ditched the restraints of Versailles and built up the German army again- meek and compliant didn't work so Germany would be strong again...

I didn't use GWB as a symbol for Jews, the comparison was the compulsion to military over kill and fascination with 'shock and awe' as any sort of good tactic.

Perhaps you will be proven to be right.  I'm just saying it's not Israel alone, but 20th and 21st-century warfare.

David Bromwich wrote:The phrase "Shock and Awe" derives from the nineteenth-century German military theorist Clausewitz. It was brought to the United States by Dr. Harlan Ullman, a senior associate at the Center for Strategic and International Studies and a man of deep influence in the Bush administration, whose acumen as a strategic thinker has been lauded by Colin Powell. The doctrine of "rapid dominance" expounded by Dr. Ullman is the key to the strategy that General Myers and others now find themselves preparing to execute.

Extreme clarity marks the doctrines and maxims of Dr. Ullman. For him, a major precedent to guide American military policy in the twenty-first century, and a clue to the effect on enemy morale intended by Shock and Awe, was the dropping of the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Japanese were shocked into immediate surrender. The greatness of such an overwhelming attack, according to Ullman, lies in its capacity to inflict on the enemy an instant paralysis of the will to fight. It assures that an entire people will be "intimidated, made to feel so impotent, so helpless, that they have no choice but to do what we want them to do." It might be objected that this amounts to an endorsement of the use of weapons of mass terror, since concussive paralysis and the injury of non-combatants are among the intended effects of such an attack. The implicit answer offered by Ullman and his admirers is that the end justifies the means, and in a case involving the United States, the end is always benign.

It is important for its psychological effect as well: "This war [tactic] has been conceived, among other things, as a demonstration."  The idea is, beyond winning, to show what you can and will do to any nation that defies our will.  

Bromwich concludes:

David Bromwich wrote:Be very careful. That seems the true meaning of the remarks by Tony Blair and George W. Bush as they said farewell to peace from the Azores. Given a calculated lead-time, the American and British press pools were being put on notice; for in the days to come, leaders and commanders will do and citizens will watch, and we had better get used to our condition. The reporters of the two democracies have thus been asked, with suitable moderation and delicacy, to convey the new state of things to the spectators of Shock and Awe.

If this is the tactic, your country and mine invented it.  Israel is hardly to blame for that.  If we want to take a step back, the whole world ought to be in on it.

Didge wrote:Utterly clueless and fails to understand the point with now daft claims of racism and more claims to Nazism, go away you pathetic child if you cannot have an adult debate here, this is why you are fucking clueless Veya and a complete idiot, happy for you to show otherwise, but if you persist with idiotic claims and call me a Nazi, when you have not the first clue about Nazism again, I will continue to ridicule your utter stupidity



Your choice

Again here are the questions you failed to answer:

Why has Hamas never built any bomb shelters?

Why does Hamas continue to violate every ceasefire?

I wont re write it I Will post an Image of my previous post that clearly HAS my ANSWER colour coded.. Pretty clear and HONEST Answer there... Hamas are still restricted by Laws of Physics and limited resources etc they haven't invented teleporting yet.

Your previous answer was both childish and emotive not engaging the points but instead acting like an idiot attacking me with poor accusations

Try again

OK I'll call you the very Accurate GENOCIDE SUPPORTER instead
You fine with that GENOCIDE SUPPORTER Lover of War criminals ??????
You can't deny what you are didge.... Enabler of Human suffering


And Didge you have shown Time and time again YOU know the Eurocentric Lies that Racists Call History...
You probably think Hitler was the Worst Humans ever, Even though the Emperor of Japan alive at the same time Order MORE war Crimes to Be committed and KILLED MORE Civilians... But as you have shown again and again you don't count people that aren't white.

Andy or Smelly represents dumb fear driven racists, You represent the Institutional Racism the West has used to oppress other people for the last few centuries.

Didge You are the one that Is denying the empirical evidence

STOP being Childish
You have not stated A SINGLE FACT

and AS is a pretty clear answer
BLOCKADE for 20 years  Strong Blockade restricting Medicine and Food for 7 years
That is a pretty clear reason why you cant build a bomb shelter!!!!!


AND WHY HAS ISRAEL???
they are just as guilty as Hamas at ignoring cease fires... Go one say they aren't so EVERYONE can see that you are noting but a Zionist lying thru your teeth.

Yet more infantile emotive responses, again accusing me of racism, not even understanding the concept of racism, I suggest you go an lie down and think about what you are accusing me of, as it is nothing more than a poor deflection from debating the actual points. The very fact there is no such thing biologically as races in humans being we are all one race, shows your accusations are not only idiotic but far removed from reality, in other words you are poorly deflecting from the debate to try and accuse me of something I deplore, which shows how infantile you are acting
To now even equate Hitler to Hirohito on numbers killed and not on their mindsets has to be the most stupidest claim I have ever heard based on who was more evil.

As I said, if you cannot act like an adult and post the points instead of as seen attacking me with poor false accusations, I suggest you run along

Didge wrote:Your previous answer was both childish and emotive not engaging the points but instead acting like an idiot attacking me with poor accusations

Try again

Because your not actually posting Any points !!!!!!

Try posting something top back you blatant lies that I have provided empirical evidence to disprove MULTIPLE times.  

Your only point is Hamas is Bad so Israel crimes are irrelevant (for some reason that I cannot fathom except you believe Palestinian live to by worth less than 0.5% of an Israeli life)




And talk about PROVING my point
Who do you think the Chinese and Koreans teach is worse??? maybe the Guy that Committed like triple the war crimes and killed 4 times the civilians? it wasn't Hitler.

Didge your racist Eurocentric history is easily Pulled apart by FACTS and FIGURES, the fact they you actually think the Other 80% of the world believe the Eurocentric every that is in anyway important happens in Europe version of History Highlights that you REALLY are an Institutional Racist.

It is men like you that Write Books that Over state the importance of the events that involve their one peoples in order to belittle the history of other races. I believe this is subconscious racist tendencies cannot allow a comparison that would damage your sense of 'pride' in your race and ethnic history. and Accept that Actually no the 'most' 'best' 'worst' don't HAVE to be from Europe.

Oh dear more emotive infantile inaccurate accusations

Epic Fail

Again regarding Hitler who had a mindset of pure evil to Hirohito shows how very stupid you really are, not even understanding Hirohito was nothing more than a puppet to the military dictatorship, who would have been removed very quickly if he had disagreed with the military. Thus your claims are not only daft in regards to these people but far removed from sanity. I suggest you read up on Hirohito before you make such absurd claims. It seems every argument you have is based on numbers and not the philosophy behind exterminations. Both the Japanese and Germans had both a racial view point of those it had conquered, with one exception with the Germans, they did not treat all as subhuman, where as the Japanese did, to anyone not Japanese. Please stop embarrassing yourself Veya with idiotic claims, you have not the first clue about.


The fact you seem to equate everything to racism, is what is wrong with some people who are left wing an shows why some people with left wing views think they can shout racist and it makes their claim valid, what it shows is they are nothing but idiots.

Now again I have condemned Israel for indiscriminate shelling and some attacks that are constituted and what would be seen as war crimes today, but the reality is this is war, where if you used your illogical view every nation involved in conflict where civilians have died would be Nazi's to you, showing how absurd your views are, scream Nazi and racist and you think that makes your view valid, it does not and it is embarrassing to read.



So again, why has Hamas built tunnels and not bomb shelters? And how many civilians would be alive today if they had?

 

BACK to the simple "facts" :

LAST week alone, Hamas may have fired hundreds of missiles, but how many people did those missiles actually kill ? At the same time, Hamas thugs ambushed and killed 7 or 8 Israeli soldiers invading Gaza..

ISRAELI soldiers and Police illegally invaded Palestinian territory, yet again, openly bashing Palestinian women and children as they did so..

IN the process of taking out a Hamas base with approx. 70 insurgents/"terrorists", the Israeli's have also proudly admitted to killing over 280 innocent local civilians during their incursions !

THE arrogant and morals-free Zionists that run Israel have now happily taken on the very same segregation/apartheid practices that Jews had experienced over 70-80 years ago; and at the same time see nothing wrong with Israeli soldiers murdering American and British "allies" nor having Mossad steal the identities of hundreds of innocent and unawares international travelers..   

Exactly Bee. That Jews have a history of being persecuted does not make it understandable, justified or rational for them to dish out the same persecution themselves now they have been given immense power and have the continual backing of the most powerful nation on Earth.

Israel carrying on like this will only make them more enemies, push the USA to the brink and eventually they will compromise their position. Lashing out so heavily due to a persecution complex will simply lead to those against them eventually lashing out.

As Gandhi says, an eye for an eye and the world goes blind- Israel should learn that what they are doing right now will cost them eventually.

Eilzel wrote:Exactly Bee. That Jews have a history of being persecuted does not make it understandable, justified or rational for them to dish out the same persecution themselves now they have been given immense power and have the continual backing of the most powerful nation on Earth.

Israel carrying on like this will only make them more enemies, push the USA to the brink and eventually they will compromise their position. Lashing out so heavily due to a persecution complex will simply lead to those against them eventually lashing out.

As Gandhi says, an eye for an eye and the world goes blind- Israel should learn that what they are doing right now will cost them eventually.

Again how this is equated to persecution is completely wrong. This is a war and like in any war civilians sadly die and it only seems to be Israel who is being criticized all the time here, where I admit they are wrong with indiscriminate shelling, but lets face some home truths here which many of you are avoiding. The only reason Israels causalities are low is because Israel has measure in place to protect them, the dome is only so effective and it is bomb shelters that have saved countless lives. The same would have happened if Hamas had built preventative measures for the people of Gaza, but they want to make martyrs of them.


"For the Palestinian people, death has become an industry, at which women excel, and so do all the people living on this land. The elderly excel at this, and so do the mujahideen and the children. This is why they have formed human shields of the women, the children, the elderly, and the mujahideen, in order to challenge the Zionist bombing machine. It is as if they were saying to the Zionist enemy: 'We desire death like you desire life.'"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fathi_Hamad


So again why has Hamas built tunnels to attack Israel and not bomb shelters for its people? It wants as many civilian deaths as possible to gain world sympathy and many on the left always buy this, so again how many could have been saved if they had built bomb shelters?

Even more telling:

On December 24, 2013 Hamad made a speech in which he claimed that after the elimination of Israel, Islam will take over the world and establish a new Islamic caliphate.

On January 13, 2014 Hamad made a speech in which he predicted that the state of Palestine will replace Israel by 2022


We are talking about an extremist group with extremist goals, one the destruction of Israel, two it does not care how many people die even if they are Palestinians to obtain this goal, three every single rocket attacks is indiscriminate that is fired on Israel and the casualty list is far lower because Israel looks to defend its people, 4 Israel has made some poor tactical errors, and commit war crimes, but in the main they warn before they attack.
So what exactly do people expect Israel to do?

But no one denies Hamas are terrorists didge, nor does anyone defend them.

Yes it is a war, but Israel have backed Gaza into a corner, cut off supplies leaving them with a crappy infrastructure. Gaza is also much smaller than Israel so they are limited in how they can protect citizens in any case (even if they wanted to) unlike Israel.

The problem I have is the way people are making excuses for Israel. Quill for sure almost falls over himself in throwing up all sorts of ways to make it seem as though Israel is justified. It is appalling. Again Hamas is rightly condemned all the time- the problem for some of us however is that some seem to infer that Israel is 'the good guy' in all this- and using their previous persecutions as somehow meaning we should understand them is repulsive tbh.

Hamas stops firing rockets,

Israel stops dropping bombs.

Seems simple to me!

Eilzel wrote:But no one denies Hamas are terrorists didge, nor does anyone defend them.

Yes it is a war, but Israel have backed Gaza into a corner, cut off supplies leaving them with a crappy infrastructure. Gaza is also much smaller than Israel so they are limited in how they can protect citizens in any case (even if they wanted to) unlike Israel.

The problem I have is the way people are making excuses for Israel. Quill for sure almost falls over himself in throwing up all sorts of ways to make it seem as though Israel is justified. It is appalling. Again Hamas is rightly condemned all the time- the problem for some of us however is that some seem to infer that Israel is 'the good guy' in all this- and using their previous persecutions as somehow meaning we should understand them is repulsive tbh.

Actually Eilzel, Hamas is hardly condemned at all, where again what people miss here is that they are happy for as many people to die for PR, with the set goal of Israel being weakened, so I am showing the bigger picture here, they clearly violate every ceasefire, knowing full well Israel will retaliate. Being the fact they have made no infrastructure for the civilians proves the point their whole methodology is to create the scenario of civilians dying in the hope the UN would create sanctions on Israel. Now again I have condemned the methods used by Israel but nobody can seen to say how and what Israel should do to indiscriminate attacks by Hamas and that is the crux of the matter and no country would do nothing either, as stated before America when attacked with 9/11 created two nations being invaded with ongoing drone strikes illegally in places like Pakistan, which brings us back to the point on whoever is doing the attacking.

I have not once used their previous persecution, that is always others in these debates, but as seen because of how Israel conducts the war people use this in many countries even like here in Britain where there has been 70 antisemitic attacks since the conflict.
Again this is war and in every conflict civilians are causalities, you then have to question who is the aggressor and their aims, which is Hamas, who as seen want the complete destruction of Israel and at any cost. They have created the means for as many civilians to die, based on the fact they build no protection for civilians and place weaponry within civilian areas, which many people are ignoring

Lone Wolf wrote: 

BACK to the simple "facts" :

LAST week alone, Hamas may have fired hundreds of missiles, but how many people did those missiles actually kill ? At the same time, Hamas thugs ambushed and killed 7 or 8 Israeli soldiers invading Gaza..

Are you suggesting that Hamas is deliberately 'going light' on Israel, Bee?  I honestly think it is more likely that Hamas would have loved to have killed 100,000s of Israelis, only they can't.

Lone Wolf wrote:ISRAELI soldiers and Police illegally invaded Palestinian territory, yet again, openly bashing Palestinian women and children as they did so..

IN the process of taking out a Hamas base with approx. 70 insurgents/"terrorists", the Israeli's have also proudly admitted to killing over 280 innocent local civilians during their incursions !

Well, it is a war after all.  I suspect that no one intended to kill "local citizens"--well, maybe Hamas.  Israel is taking losses too.  This is what happens in a war.

The fact is that those Palestinian losses were engineered by Hamas, in an effort at raising the death toll for the western media.  Since Hamas is aiming at the west, the west should respond.  Someone should go into Gaza, take away the missiles, and restore peace.

Eilzel wrote:Exactly Bee. That Jews have a history of being persecuted does not make it understandable, justified or rational for them to dish out the same persecution themselves now they have been given immense power and have the continual backing of the most powerful nation on Earth.

Israel carrying on like this will only make them more enemies, push the USA to the brink and eventually they will compromise their position. Lashing out so heavily due to a persecution complex will simply lead to those against them eventually lashing out.

As Gandhi says, an eye for an eye and the world goes blind- Israel should learn that what they are doing right now will cost them eventually.

I do think you misunderstand the message, Les.  No one expects commiseration, or even forbearance for the Jews coming out of the Nazi experience.   The message isn't, That was a rough one! or Weep for us! They are not stockpiling pity.  The message is, Never again!

In other words, so far from looking back, they are looking at how they will face the next battle.  So they are not asking for pity for the past, but they are telling themselves, never again...the next time we will be ready.  And so they are.

Let's not get mixed up on needless debates based upon misreading the script.  This is a straight out, one-on-one fight.  It is Hamas that is looking for pity...disingenuously.

Original Quill wrote:

Eilzel wrote:Exactly Bee. That Jews have a history of being persecuted does not make it understandable, justified or rational for them to dish out the same persecution themselves now they have been given immense power and have the continual backing of the most powerful nation on Earth.

Israel carrying on like this will only make them more enemies, push the USA to the brink and eventually they will compromise their position. Lashing out so heavily due to a persecution complex will simply lead to those against them eventually lashing out.

As Gandhi says, an eye for an eye and the world goes blind- Israel should learn that what they are doing right now will cost them eventually.

I do think you misunderstand the message, Les.  No one expects commiseration, or even forbearance for the Jews coming out of the Nazi experience.   The message isn't, That was a rough one! or Weep for us! They are not stockpiling pity.  The message is, Never again!

In other words, so far from looking back, they are looking at how they will face the next battle.  So they are not asking for pity for the past, but they are telling themselves, never again...the next time we will be ready.  And so they are.

Let's not get mixed up on needless debates based upon misreading the script.  This is a straight out, one-on-one fight.  It is Hamas that is looking for pity...disingenuously.

it is not 1 on 1 as long as the USA cover the cost of 85% of Israeli Military spending   

Veya wrote:it is not 1 on 1 as long as the USA cover the cost of 85% of Israeli Military spending

And Hamas has Iran to cover the cost of all those missiles. It's still one-on-one.

BTW, Israel does a lot for the US, as well.

Original Quill wrote:

Veya wrote:it is not 1 on 1 as long as the USA cover the cost of 85% of Israeli Military spending

And Hamas has Iran to cover the cost of all those missiles.  It's still one-on-one.

BTW, Israel does a lot for the US, as well.  

BWAHAHAHAHA
yep just like the difference in the Rocket attacks
VAST DIFFERENCE IN ACTUAL CAPACITY
the support from the USA is 100's of times the dollar value to Israel than Iran to Palestine...

And what pray tell does Israel do for the USA         
beside create an alternative focal point for legitimate regional dissatisfaction with the local peoples treatment by the western powers       

veya_victaous wrote:

Original Quill wrote:


And Hamas has Iran to cover the cost of all those missiles.  It's still one-on-one.

BTW, Israel does a lot for the US, as well.  

BWAHAHAHAHA
yep just like the difference in the Rocket attacks

Iran must have a lot of them to spare.

veya_victaous wrote:VAST DIFFERENCE IN ACTUAL CAPACITY
the support from the USA is 100's of times the dollar value to Israel than Iran to Palestine...

Meh...it's only a difference in degree.  The spirit is there.

veya_victaous wrote:And what pray tell does Israel do for the USA         
beside create an alternative focal point for legitimate regional dissatisfaction with the local peoples treatment by the western powers       

WTF is "create an alternative focal point for legitimate regional dissatisfaction with the local peoples treatment by the western powers?"  Lol.  Sounds like someone hit the verbosity button.

the difference in the degrees makes a big difference when extrapolated to the current levels.

AND that means the West has supported Multiple regimes because they have been in our best economic interests.. and often to the detriment of the local peoples.
Thus people in the middle East people have a legitimate reason to Dislike and distrust the west. the Presence of Israel in the their midst takes their mind of that and focuses instead on Israel...

it is a very cynical analysis.... but every suicide bomber that kills them self against Israel is one less that works towards another 9/11 .... so what the USA get out of that is obvious...

But Beside that what do they do for the USA???

[quote="veya_victaous"][quote="Original Quill"]


I agree......payback is a bitch ain't it

but also sorry Arafat also did more harm than good sometimes.....both sides have let peace slip through their fingers too many times.


edit: sorry kindle playing up again.

@cass
yes, I don't think anyone can say other wise both sides have constantly made choices rooted in hate.

I Think it at the point now, where the UN needs to step up and say Palestine you have lost, let us remove the innocents and if you still wish to fight to the death (which will inevitable be yours) so be it.... But lets us move the innocents first

I think Israel is Supposed to be a Modern Nation, therefore it should meet international exceptions regarding the humane treatment of Civilians and combatants.