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About Us & RulesScottish independence: Europeans with an eye on Edinburgh
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Scottish independence: Europeans with an eye on Edinburgh
by Guest Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:26 am
Voters will go to the polls in September to decide whether Scotland should become an independent country. But what other Europeans are pressing for independence and how closely are they watching Scotland?
1. Catalonia
The Catalan regional authorities have a long history of fighting the central authorities for greater autonomy, with many Catalans believing their language, culture and identity cannot be properly represented in Spain.
The region in north-east Spain already enjoys a wide degree of autonomy, and, until recently, few Catalans wanted full independence. But Spain's economic crisis has seen a surge in support for separation as many believe the affluent region pays more to Madrid than it gets back.
At the same time, the political base of support for Catalan self-determination has broadened from its traditional preserve of the left and been embraced by the centre-right.
The Catalan government plans to hold a referendum on independence on 9 November 2014, asking voters if they want Catalonia to be a state, and if they want it to be an independent state.
Spanish MPs overwhelmingly rejected a request to hold the referendum earlier this year, with Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy declaring it "illegal".
Recent opinion polls suggest people in Catalonia are evenly divided over independence.
Jose Ignacio Torreblanca, a columnist for Spanish newspaper El Pais, says people are keeping an eye on Scotland.
He says: "Whether they vote yes or no doesn't really matter - the fact a referendum has been granted and is going ahead is seen as hugely significant.
"What remains to be seen is whether the Catalan government will merely use the threat of a referendum as a tactical tool - or whether they will go through with it, which would mean facing sanctions from Madrid."
It is also worth noting that Mr Rajoy has implied that Spain could vetoan independent Scotland's membership of the EU, widely interpreted as a warning to Catalan separatists. The Scottish government argues Scotland could remain in the EU as it is already a member as part of the UK.
A protest calling for a referendum on Basque self-determination in the village of Mondragon, northern Spain
2. Basque
Spain's Basque country already has a large degree of autonomy. Like Catalonia, it won more devolved powers - it has its own parliament, police force, controls education and collects its own taxes - in the 1970s.
The argument for Basque independence relies on its distinct identity and language - which was suppressed under Spanish dictator Gen Franco. Many Basque nationalists also believe the country's borders extend into southern France.
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote
The Basque Parliament has lobbied Madrid for a referendum on independence repeatedly over the past 15 years, but the Spanish government has consistently rejected appeals for such a poll.
Inigo Gurruchaga, a journalist at El Correo, one of the main papers in the region, says the Basque question has historically been more sensitive than Catalonia because of its association with the violent separatist group Eta.
Eta - which was formed more than 50 years ago to fight for an independent Basque homeland - declared a definitive end to hostilities in 2011. But the Spanish government insists the group must disarm.
"Basque nationalists are now biding their time, watching and waiting to see what happens with the Catalan referendum," says Gurruchaga.
They're also watching to see what happens in Scotland. "I'm constantly being asked to write articles on Scottish independence," he adds.
Belgium's answer to Nigel Farage? New Flemish Alliance leader Bart de Wever
3. Flanders
Potential for a breakaway state from Belgium lies in Flanders, the Dutch-speaking northern part of the country, where there have been calls for greater Flemish autonomy from Wallonia, the French-speaking southern half.
In the past, Flemish leaders have said they only want to reform the Belgian state, not dismantle it. The number of Flemish voters that want independence has stayed pretty constant - at about 10%.
However, the New Flemish Alliance party (NVA), which has 20% of the federal government seats, has an independent Flanders in its manifesto.
"The NVA has recently moved away from overtly campaigning for secession in order to concentrate on social and economic issues, but separatism is still in the party's statute," says Dave Sinardet, a professor of politics at the Free University of Brussels.
Flanders tends to lean right politically, whereas Wallonia tends to lean left, which the NVA says makes it hard for right-wing parties to govern at a national level.
As Prof Sinardet points out, it's a strikingly similar case to that made by many proponents of Scottish independence about the tension between Scottish and English voting preferences.
The NVA also has a lot in common with a very different British phenomenon - UKIP - in terms of what Prof Sardinet calls the "charismatic, man-of-the-people" leadership of Bart de Wever and his party's tough stance on immigration.
He says there's "very limited" awareness of the Scottish referendum in Belgium in general but political parties such as the NVA are "likely to be paying closer attention".
Northern League supporters fly the flag representing Padania at the party's annual meeting in 2011
4. Padania
Separatists in the north of Italy have long called for an independent state made up of several of the country's wealthiest and most populous northern regions, sometimes referred to collectively as Padania.
Economic imbalance is key to demand for northern self-rule, since many in the north see themselves as "exploited" - not getting back what they pay in taxes, and (as they see it) subsidising the poorer south.
The movement has found political expression in the form of the Northern League (NL), which is famous for its stridently anti-immigrant rhetoric, and reached its highest levels of support in 1996 and in 2008. The party's votes in parliament were crucial to the coalition led by Silvio Berlusconi's People of Freedom Party (PdL).
The NL's main appeal was its drive for more devolved control over taxation and its ability to channel discontent against the central state, according to Dr Arianna Giovannini, a co-convenor of the UK Political Studies Association's Italian politics specialist group.
But she argues a failure to follow through on this proposal when it was in government damaged its standing with voters, who then felt neither the traditional centre-right nor the NL could meet their needs.
The party's decline in popularity was demonstrated in the 2013 general election, when it only managed to get 4% of the votes.
Giovannini says in the NL's heyday in the mid-1990s it often pointed to Scotland and used the English word "devolution" to illustrate the case for more regional powers, although awareness of the Scottish referendum is not at present particularly widespread.
Will Rome respond to calls for Venetian independence?
5. Veneto
The Veneto - a northern region of which Venice is the capital - has its own distinct movement for independence.
It is born out of a similar sense of economic dissatisfaction to the wider northern movement, says Matteo Nicolini, assistant professor of public law at Verona University.
This dissatisfaction has gathered new political momentum since 2010, when the Northern League (NL) was in decline at a national level, but still held ground in Veneto.
In March a coalition of "Venetists", including president of the Veneto regional government, Luca Zaia, came together under the name of Veneto Indipendente to set up a referendum on independence.
People could vote online, via telephone or at polling stations improvised in town squares. The organisers declared "Yes" won with 89% of 2.5 million votes cast.
Nicolini says he finds it "strange" that the national government has not challenged the plebiscite, which he describes as "illegal" since it goes against Article Five of the Italian constitution: "The Italian Republic is one and indivisible."
Giovannini suggests that the next step for the Venetists will be to strengthen and professionalise their organisation - and this could determine whether Rome pays them more attention.
Scotland isn't really on their radar, Nicolini adds.
Rule Bretagne?
6. Brittany
Brittany, in north-west France, has its own language, culture, cuisine and flag and has strong ties to other parts of Europe's Celtic fringe.
Although political nationalism is weak, efforts to assert a distinct Breton cultural identity enjoy broader support in the region.
Breton, a Celtic language that is close to Cornish and Welsh, was historically scorned as a "patois" of the working classes, but has enjoyed a mini-revival in recent years after decades of decline.
Politically, the case for Breton devolution is made by the Union Democratique Bretonne. Its main successes have been on the regional council of Brittany - though in 2012, Paul Molac was elected to the French National Assembly - the first Breton autonomist to take a national seat.
John Loughlin, professor of European politics at Cambridge University, says the creation of regional councils in the 1970 and 1980s, and increased tolerance towards linguistic plurality, were historically "relatively successful" in absorbing demands for Breton autonomy.
More recent signs from Paris indicate that the country is to become more centralised - not less - with President Hollande announcing plans to reduce the number of French regions from 22 to as few as 14. The proposal has been met with some hostility, particularly in Brittany.
The Moor's head of the Corsican flag, formerly blindfolded, is a symbol of Corsican nationalism
7. Corsica
Another challenge to French sovereignty has come from Corsica, a large island of about 330,000 people off the south-east coast of France.
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote
Corsica has suffered more than 40 years of political violence involving separatist paramilitaries, with bombing campaigns from the mid-1970s often targeting police stations and administrative buildings. In 1998 France's top official on the island was assassinated.
Extra powers for Corsica were narrowly rejected in a 2003 referendum organised by the French government.
Political parties who have rejected the armed struggle include the Union of the Corsican People, which enjoys consistent modest levels of electoral success and currently has one MEP, Francois Alfonsi.
Dr Anwen Elias, a lecturer on European nationalism at Aberystwyth University, explains that support for Corsican independence is "quite low" but that numbers are difficult to come by since "even to carry out an opinion poll on this question is so controversial".
Asked if she thinks Corsicans are mindful of the Scottish referendum, she says that "all European nationalist movements are keeping a close eye on Scotland".
"Szeklerland" is the phrase sometimes used to refer to the Hungarian-dominated region of Romania.
8. Hungarians in Romania
There is a widespread belief among Hungarians that some western parts of what is now Romania belong to them.
In the post-war Communist era, the Hungarian language was banned in Romanian schools and the use of Hungarian place names was suppressed. Protests in support of an ethnic Hungarian pastor triggered the 1989 Romanian revolution that toppled the autocratic Communist leader Nicolae Ceausescu.
Dr Erin Marie Saltman, a researcher of Hungarian politics for anti-extremism think tank the Quilliam Foundation, says that "since Ceausescu, the situation of Hungarians in Romania has been much better".
However, the transfer of Transylvania to Romania after World War One is often referred to by Hungarians as "the national tragedy".
"This idea is shared by Hungarians on both the right and liberal left, but over the past 10 years it has been politicised and used to drive up support particularly for right-wing and far-right parties," says Dr Saltman.
"You see the map of 'larger Hungary' everywhere - on bumper stickers, beer mats and tattoos," she adds.
In 2013, thousands of Hungarians demanding self-rule marched in Transylvania.
The centre-right Hungarian government is supportive of their aims, but the Romanian government opposes the idea on the grounds it might lead to the break-up of the Romanian state.
Dr Saltman says "not that many" in Hungary and Romania are aware of the Scottish referendum, but that could change if Scotland votes "Yes".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28365453
1. Catalonia
The Catalan regional authorities have a long history of fighting the central authorities for greater autonomy, with many Catalans believing their language, culture and identity cannot be properly represented in Spain.
The region in north-east Spain already enjoys a wide degree of autonomy, and, until recently, few Catalans wanted full independence. But Spain's economic crisis has seen a surge in support for separation as many believe the affluent region pays more to Madrid than it gets back.
At the same time, the political base of support for Catalan self-determination has broadened from its traditional preserve of the left and been embraced by the centre-right.
The Catalan government plans to hold a referendum on independence on 9 November 2014, asking voters if they want Catalonia to be a state, and if they want it to be an independent state.
Spanish MPs overwhelmingly rejected a request to hold the referendum earlier this year, with Prime Minister Mariano Rajoy declaring it "illegal".
Recent opinion polls suggest people in Catalonia are evenly divided over independence.
Jose Ignacio Torreblanca, a columnist for Spanish newspaper El Pais, says people are keeping an eye on Scotland.
He says: "Whether they vote yes or no doesn't really matter - the fact a referendum has been granted and is going ahead is seen as hugely significant.
"What remains to be seen is whether the Catalan government will merely use the threat of a referendum as a tactical tool - or whether they will go through with it, which would mean facing sanctions from Madrid."
It is also worth noting that Mr Rajoy has implied that Spain could vetoan independent Scotland's membership of the EU, widely interpreted as a warning to Catalan separatists. The Scottish government argues Scotland could remain in the EU as it is already a member as part of the UK.
A protest calling for a referendum on Basque self-determination in the village of Mondragon, northern Spain2. Basque
Spain's Basque country already has a large degree of autonomy. Like Catalonia, it won more devolved powers - it has its own parliament, police force, controls education and collects its own taxes - in the 1970s.
The argument for Basque independence relies on its distinct identity and language - which was suppressed under Spanish dictator Gen Franco. Many Basque nationalists also believe the country's borders extend into southern France.
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote
Inigo GurruchagaJournalist at El Correo newspaperBasque nationalists are now biding their time, watching and waiting to see what happens with the Catalan referendum”
The Basque Parliament has lobbied Madrid for a referendum on independence repeatedly over the past 15 years, but the Spanish government has consistently rejected appeals for such a poll.
Inigo Gurruchaga, a journalist at El Correo, one of the main papers in the region, says the Basque question has historically been more sensitive than Catalonia because of its association with the violent separatist group Eta.
Eta - which was formed more than 50 years ago to fight for an independent Basque homeland - declared a definitive end to hostilities in 2011. But the Spanish government insists the group must disarm.
"Basque nationalists are now biding their time, watching and waiting to see what happens with the Catalan referendum," says Gurruchaga.
They're also watching to see what happens in Scotland. "I'm constantly being asked to write articles on Scottish independence," he adds.
Belgium's answer to Nigel Farage? New Flemish Alliance leader Bart de Wever3. Flanders
Potential for a breakaway state from Belgium lies in Flanders, the Dutch-speaking northern part of the country, where there have been calls for greater Flemish autonomy from Wallonia, the French-speaking southern half.
In the past, Flemish leaders have said they only want to reform the Belgian state, not dismantle it. The number of Flemish voters that want independence has stayed pretty constant - at about 10%.
However, the New Flemish Alliance party (NVA), which has 20% of the federal government seats, has an independent Flanders in its manifesto.
"The NVA has recently moved away from overtly campaigning for secession in order to concentrate on social and economic issues, but separatism is still in the party's statute," says Dave Sinardet, a professor of politics at the Free University of Brussels.
Flanders tends to lean right politically, whereas Wallonia tends to lean left, which the NVA says makes it hard for right-wing parties to govern at a national level.
As Prof Sinardet points out, it's a strikingly similar case to that made by many proponents of Scottish independence about the tension between Scottish and English voting preferences.
The NVA also has a lot in common with a very different British phenomenon - UKIP - in terms of what Prof Sardinet calls the "charismatic, man-of-the-people" leadership of Bart de Wever and his party's tough stance on immigration.
He says there's "very limited" awareness of the Scottish referendum in Belgium in general but political parties such as the NVA are "likely to be paying closer attention".
Northern League supporters fly the flag representing Padania at the party's annual meeting in 20114. Padania
Separatists in the north of Italy have long called for an independent state made up of several of the country's wealthiest and most populous northern regions, sometimes referred to collectively as Padania.
Economic imbalance is key to demand for northern self-rule, since many in the north see themselves as "exploited" - not getting back what they pay in taxes, and (as they see it) subsidising the poorer south.
The movement has found political expression in the form of the Northern League (NL), which is famous for its stridently anti-immigrant rhetoric, and reached its highest levels of support in 1996 and in 2008. The party's votes in parliament were crucial to the coalition led by Silvio Berlusconi's People of Freedom Party (PdL).
The NL's main appeal was its drive for more devolved control over taxation and its ability to channel discontent against the central state, according to Dr Arianna Giovannini, a co-convenor of the UK Political Studies Association's Italian politics specialist group.
But she argues a failure to follow through on this proposal when it was in government damaged its standing with voters, who then felt neither the traditional centre-right nor the NL could meet their needs.
The party's decline in popularity was demonstrated in the 2013 general election, when it only managed to get 4% of the votes.
Giovannini says in the NL's heyday in the mid-1990s it often pointed to Scotland and used the English word "devolution" to illustrate the case for more regional powers, although awareness of the Scottish referendum is not at present particularly widespread.
Will Rome respond to calls for Venetian independence?5. Veneto
The Veneto - a northern region of which Venice is the capital - has its own distinct movement for independence.
It is born out of a similar sense of economic dissatisfaction to the wider northern movement, says Matteo Nicolini, assistant professor of public law at Verona University.
This dissatisfaction has gathered new political momentum since 2010, when the Northern League (NL) was in decline at a national level, but still held ground in Veneto.
In March a coalition of "Venetists", including president of the Veneto regional government, Luca Zaia, came together under the name of Veneto Indipendente to set up a referendum on independence.
People could vote online, via telephone or at polling stations improvised in town squares. The organisers declared "Yes" won with 89% of 2.5 million votes cast.
Nicolini says he finds it "strange" that the national government has not challenged the plebiscite, which he describes as "illegal" since it goes against Article Five of the Italian constitution: "The Italian Republic is one and indivisible."
Giovannini suggests that the next step for the Venetists will be to strengthen and professionalise their organisation - and this could determine whether Rome pays them more attention.
Scotland isn't really on their radar, Nicolini adds.
Rule Bretagne?6. Brittany
Brittany, in north-west France, has its own language, culture, cuisine and flag and has strong ties to other parts of Europe's Celtic fringe.
Although political nationalism is weak, efforts to assert a distinct Breton cultural identity enjoy broader support in the region.
Breton, a Celtic language that is close to Cornish and Welsh, was historically scorned as a "patois" of the working classes, but has enjoyed a mini-revival in recent years after decades of decline.
Politically, the case for Breton devolution is made by the Union Democratique Bretonne. Its main successes have been on the regional council of Brittany - though in 2012, Paul Molac was elected to the French National Assembly - the first Breton autonomist to take a national seat.
John Loughlin, professor of European politics at Cambridge University, says the creation of regional councils in the 1970 and 1980s, and increased tolerance towards linguistic plurality, were historically "relatively successful" in absorbing demands for Breton autonomy.
More recent signs from Paris indicate that the country is to become more centralised - not less - with President Hollande announcing plans to reduce the number of French regions from 22 to as few as 14. The proposal has been met with some hostility, particularly in Brittany.
The Moor's head of the Corsican flag, formerly blindfolded, is a symbol of Corsican nationalism7. Corsica
Another challenge to French sovereignty has come from Corsica, a large island of about 330,000 people off the south-east coast of France.
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote
Dr Anwen EliasExpert in European nationalism at Aberystwyth UniversityAll European nationalist movements are keeping a close eye on Scotland”
Corsica has suffered more than 40 years of political violence involving separatist paramilitaries, with bombing campaigns from the mid-1970s often targeting police stations and administrative buildings. In 1998 France's top official on the island was assassinated.
Extra powers for Corsica were narrowly rejected in a 2003 referendum organised by the French government.
Political parties who have rejected the armed struggle include the Union of the Corsican People, which enjoys consistent modest levels of electoral success and currently has one MEP, Francois Alfonsi.
Dr Anwen Elias, a lecturer on European nationalism at Aberystwyth University, explains that support for Corsican independence is "quite low" but that numbers are difficult to come by since "even to carry out an opinion poll on this question is so controversial".
Asked if she thinks Corsicans are mindful of the Scottish referendum, she says that "all European nationalist movements are keeping a close eye on Scotland".
"Szeklerland" is the phrase sometimes used to refer to the Hungarian-dominated region of Romania.8. Hungarians in Romania
There is a widespread belief among Hungarians that some western parts of what is now Romania belong to them.
In the post-war Communist era, the Hungarian language was banned in Romanian schools and the use of Hungarian place names was suppressed. Protests in support of an ethnic Hungarian pastor triggered the 1989 Romanian revolution that toppled the autocratic Communist leader Nicolae Ceausescu.
Dr Erin Marie Saltman, a researcher of Hungarian politics for anti-extremism think tank the Quilliam Foundation, says that "since Ceausescu, the situation of Hungarians in Romania has been much better".
However, the transfer of Transylvania to Romania after World War One is often referred to by Hungarians as "the national tragedy".
"This idea is shared by Hungarians on both the right and liberal left, but over the past 10 years it has been politicised and used to drive up support particularly for right-wing and far-right parties," says Dr Saltman.
"You see the map of 'larger Hungary' everywhere - on bumper stickers, beer mats and tattoos," she adds.
In 2013, thousands of Hungarians demanding self-rule marched in Transylvania.
The centre-right Hungarian government is supportive of their aims, but the Romanian government opposes the idea on the grounds it might lead to the break-up of the Romanian state.
Dr Saltman says "not that many" in Hungary and Romania are aware of the Scottish referendum, but that could change if Scotland votes "Yes".
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28365453
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Re: Scottish independence: Europeans with an eye on Edinburgh
by veya_victaous Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:44 am
So will these new tiny nations be part of the EU?
if so then I guess it is probably fine since they should all be treated like states of the greater European Nation.
I don't understand why they think they will do better being smaller weaker entities
I guess it depends on how they stand in the EU before and after, if they get a proportional greater say per capita being independent, well then it is a good move.
I could understand if they were being suppressed but that doesn't really seem to be the case in Europe.
if so then I guess it is probably fine since they should all be treated like states of the greater European Nation.
I don't understand why they think they will do better being smaller weaker entities
I guess it depends on how they stand in the EU before and after, if they get a proportional greater say per capita being independent, well then it is a good move.I could understand if they were being suppressed but that doesn't really seem to be the case in Europe.
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Re: Scottish independence: Europeans with an eye on Edinburgh
by Guest Fri Jul 25, 2014 1:48 am
veya_victaous wrote:So will these new tiny nations be part of the EU?
if so then I guess it is probably fine since they should all be treated like states of the greater European Nation.
I don't understand why they think they will do better being smaller weaker entities
I could understand if they were being suppressed but that doesn't really seem to be the case in Europe.
Its all down to a growing nationalist mindset view, people identifying behind their local cultures and languages and all of those listed the Basque have been fighting for independence for years.
It shows I guess many people want to govern themselves and maybe smaller states is the key to less discontent within bigger nations.
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Re: Scottish independence: Europeans with an eye on Edinburgh
by veya_victaous Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:02 am
Didge wrote:veya_victaous wrote:So will these new tiny nations be part of the EU?
if so then I guess it is probably fine since they should all be treated like states of the greater European Nation.
I don't understand why they think they will do better being smaller weaker entities
I could understand if they were being suppressed but that doesn't really seem to be the case in Europe.
Its all down to a growing nationalist mindset view, people identifying behind their local cultures and languages and all of those listed the Basque have been fighting for independence for years.
It shows I guess many people want to govern themselves and maybe smaller states is the key to less discontent within bigger nations.
for a decade or 2 then the economic reality will hit
I don't know but as someone sitting on the other side of the world, Europeans seem to act like big babies stuck in the past. So many of the complaints are so Petty too... who cares if your new neighbour eat funny foods and hasn't been in some MINUSCULE geographic zone for generations.
you all come from Europe... close enough
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Re: Scottish independence: Europeans with an eye on Edinburgh
by Guest Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:12 am
veya_victaous wrote:Didge wrote:
Its all down to a growing nationalist mindset view, people identifying behind their local cultures and languages and all of those listed the Basque have been fighting for independence for years.
It shows I guess many people want to govern themselves and maybe smaller states is the key to less discontent within bigger nations.
for a decade or 2 then the economic reality will hit
I don't know but as someone sitting on the other side of the world, Europeans seem to act like big babies stuck in the past. So many of the complaints are so Petty too... who cares if your new neighbour eat funny foods and hasn't been in some MINUSCULE geographic zone for generations.
I agree to a certain extent, but people are proud of their heritage in European nations, sadly this has also led to wars, but you can still be independent and part of a unified Europe also, it just means being able to work together.
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Re: Scottish independence: Europeans with an eye on Edinburgh
by veya_victaous Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:15 am
I don't think being part of a greater means you need to forget the local
look at the USA
each state still has it own identity
look at the USA
each state still has it own identity
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Re: Scottish independence: Europeans with an eye on Edinburgh
by Guest Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:18 am
veya_victaous wrote:I don't think being part of a greater means you need to forget the local
look at the USA
each state still has it own identity
But the US was a nation that was formed from migration, where as European nations are centuries old in most cases. US states also have some autonomy in their laws also.
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Re: Scottish independence: Europeans with an eye on Edinburgh
by veya_victaous Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:29 am
PFFTTTTT
:aspffftas: :aspffftas: :aspffftas: :aspffftas: :aspffftas: :aspffftas:
If we expect Aboriginals (and countless others) to Adapt I see no reason why Europeans get to say "Ohh this is too hard."
21st century now.... time to move forward or be stepped on by those that are ::%:: I think that is the real thing that is happening, the normal global status quo is returning where Europe is no great power due to internal disputes between xenophobic peasants.
:aspffftas: :aspffftas: :aspffftas: :aspffftas: :aspffftas: :aspffftas:
If we expect Aboriginals (and countless others) to Adapt I see no reason why Europeans get to say "Ohh this is too hard."
21st century now.... time to move forward or be stepped on by those that are ::%:: I think that is the real thing that is happening, the normal global status quo is returning where Europe is no great power due to internal disputes between xenophobic peasants.
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Re: Scottish independence: Europeans with an eye on Edinburgh
by Guest Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:34 am
veya_victaous wrote:PFFTTTTT
:aspffftas: :aspffftas: :aspffftas: :aspffftas: :aspffftas: :aspffftas:
If we expect Aboriginals (and countless others) to Adapt I see no reason why Europeans get to say "Ohh this is too hard."
21st century now.... time to move forward or be stepped on by those that are ::%:: I think that is the real thing that is happening, the normal global status quo is returning where Europe is no great power due to internal disputes between xenophobic peasants.
I do not expect Aboriginals to adapt, their cultures should be allowed to stay as they are
Again you ignore history, with mass migration to America, many migrants did not get along and it took until the 20th century until this was really resolved with many still identifying not only as American but as their migrant ethnicity or ancestry. Europe is now having its mass migrations, now doubt it will take decades for this to become as normal
Night
Guest- Guest
Re: Scottish independence: Europeans with an eye on Edinburgh
by veya_victaous Fri Jul 25, 2014 2:58 am
Didge wrote:veya_victaous wrote:PFFTTTTT
:aspffftas: :aspffftas: :aspffftas: :aspffftas: :aspffftas: :aspffftas:
If we expect Aboriginals (and countless others) to Adapt I see no reason why Europeans get to say "Ohh this is too hard."
21st century now.... time to move forward or be stepped on by those that are ::%:: I think that is the real thing that is happening, the normal global status quo is returning where Europe is no great power due to internal disputes between xenophobic peasants.
I do not expect Aboriginals to adapt, their cultures should be allowed to stay as they are
Again you ignore history, with mass migration to America, many migrants did not get along and it took until the 20th century until this was really resolved with many still identifying not only as American but as their migrant ethnicity or ancestry. Europe is now having its mass migrations, now doubt it will take decades for this to become as normal
Night
Most ignorant statement ever....... "as they are now".... what dead?
TOO LATE some one should have told the redcoats 200 years ago
You cant stop the wheels of Time, and pointy sticks wont help hunt the kangaroos that aren't there any more
You want them to hunt in the zoo ANY Aboriginal that lives in an Area that was colonised by the British has HAD no choice but to Adapt, which they are doing because that's what ALL life, not just human, does to survive. If you Don't adapt you die, just like the sabre-tooth or mammoth. Adaptation is and always has been the KEY to Life's survival every species must meet the challenges of the changing world...
JUST like the European peasants have to now...
many still identifying not only as American but as their migrant ethnicity or ancestry
that's the point European Peasants don't seem to grasp this concept that it is OKAY to be multiple things.
Nope got to define it down to 6 generations of ancestry and in a geographic area so limited in size that most Aussies Daily commute is equal than the Whole ethnic region 
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Re: Scottish independence: Europeans with an eye on Edinburgh
by Guest Fri Jul 25, 2014 8:26 am
veya_victaous wrote:Didge wrote:
I do not expect Aboriginals to adapt, their cultures should be allowed to stay as they are
Again you ignore history, with mass migration to America, many migrants did not get along and it took until the 20th century until this was really resolved with many still identifying not only as American but as their migrant ethnicity or ancestry. Europe is now having its mass migrations, now doubt it will take decades for this to become as normal
Night
Most ignorant statement ever....... "as they are now".... what dead?
TOO LATE some one should have told the redcoats 200 years ago
You cant stop the wheels of Time, and pointy sticks wont help hunt the kangaroos that aren't there any more
Yes you can, its called leave them the fuck alone to live their cultural life, its not your place to decide for them, it is their place to decide and if they want to remain as they are, that is their choice and areas should be set so they can hunt
ANY Aboriginal that lives in an Area that was colonised by the British has HAD no choice but to Adapt, which they are doing because that's what ALL life, not just human, does to survive. If you Don't adapt you die, just like the sabre-tooth or mammoth. Adaptation is and always has been the KEY to Life's survival every species must meet the challenges of the changing world...
JUST like the European peasants have to now...
Yes that was back then, but we are talking now, so there is no need for them to adapt just because you have changed the environment for them, what you should do is give something back so they can keep to their ways, again it is not down to you to decide other humans fate just because you feel you can, that just makes you a taker
many still identifying not only as American but as their migrant ethnicity or ancestry
that's the point European Peasants don't seem to grasp this concept that it is OKAY to be multiple things.
Fuck me, peasants? Nice condescending view of people, who made you Lord of the Manor? Sorry there is only one Me Lord on this forum and that is Edmund. You have had a few centuries to get used to mass migration with people forced to live together in such a vast continent, different ball park altogether and as stated these things take time
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