'Death and horror' in Gaza as thousands flee Israeli bombardment

by Guest Sun Jul 20, 2014 12:31 pm

First topic message reminder :

Fiercest fighting yet as Israel widens ground offensive and faces accusations of war crimes over rising number of civilian deaths

'Death and horror' in Gaza as thousands flee Israeli bombardment - Page 2 Palestinians-flee-homes-i-011

'Death and horror' in Gaza as thousands flee Israeli bombardment - Page 2 Palestinians-flee-homes-i-011

Palestinians flee their homes in Gaza's eastern Shejaiya district on Sunday after heavy Israeli shelling. Photograph: Mohammed Abed/AFP/Getty Images

The fiercest fighting of the 13-day war in Gaza erupted on Sunday morning as Israel dramatically widened its ground offensive, sending tanks and troops into urban areas and causing thousands of panicked civilians to flee.

Images of the corpses of women and children were posted on Facebook as hospitals were overwhelmed with the dead, injured and those seeking sanctuary from the onslaught.

Palestinian human rights organisations warned that the disproportionate number of civilian deaths could constitute a war crime committed by Israel.

People ran from their homes, some barefoot and nearly all empty-handed. Others crowded on the backs of trucks or rode on the bonnets of cars in a desperate attempt to flee. Sky News reported some had described a "massacre" in Shujai'iya neighbourhood. Witnesses reported hearing small arms fire inside Gaza, suggesting gun battles on the streets. Heavy shelling continued from the air and sea.

Late on Saturday evening, Israeli forces hit eastern areas of Gaza City with the heaviest bombardment yet of the 13-day war. The assault was most intense in the direction of Shujai'iya, where an orange glow of flames lit up the sky. At one stage, artillery and mortar rounds were hitting the outskirts of the city every five seconds. Later in the night jets flew low passes over the coast.

As the assault continued into Sunday morning, Israel disclosed that four soldiers have now been killed in its ground offensive. It said that at least 26 wounded soldiers evacuated to hospitals. There were unconfirmed reports that Israel suffered significant military casualties in a cross-border attack by Hamas militants on Sunday morning.

As Sunday dawned, a thin pall of smoke hung over the sea front while tank fire echoed through deserted streets. Amid the renewed offensive, large numbers of residents of the areas under attack fled the outskirts for Gaza's city centre, while residents called radio stations pleading for evacuation.

At the entrance to Shujai'iya, the Guardian saw families squeezing into the back of what few vehicles were available as streets further east were pounded by artillery fire.

Columns of people, many of them too scared, angry and shocked to speak, approached down the main road to the east and from side streets even as small arms fire was audible in the distance.

One of those fleeing was Sabreen Hattad, aged 34, with her three children. "The Israeli shells were hitting the house. We stayed the night because we were so scared but about six in the morning we decided to escape," she said.

"But where are we supposed to go? The ambulances could not enter and so we ran under shell fire."

Three other men pass by in a hurry clutching bedding in their arms. Asked what they had seen they would only answer: "Death and horror."

Many of those escaping Shujai'iya made for Gaza's central Shifa hospital, which was engulfed by chaotic scenes and ambulances ferrying the dead came in a steady steam, among them a local TV cameraman, Khaled Hamad, killed during the overnight offensive, wheeled out wrapped in a bloody plastic shroud.

Those who had fled congregated in corridors, on stairs and in the hospital car park. Staff put mattresses on floors to accommodate the injured, while some patients were being evacuated.

Aish Ijla, aged 38, whose leg was broken by shrapnel, said: "We live very close to the border. When the shells started we couldn't leave the house. It is two storeys. The shells were hitting the upper floor so we all moved downstairs. There were 30 of us in the house. Then the shrapnel started hitting the door.

"It was quiet for a moment and we decided to run. But as we were on the road a shell landed near me, breaking my leg. I told the family to go on with out me and carried on going for a little bit and stopping then going on. Eventually an ambulance reached me after two hours."

More than 63,000 people had sought sanctuary in 49 shelters it was providing in Gaza, and it expected the numbers to rise, the UN agency for Palestinian refugees, UNRWA, said. "The number has tripled in the last three days reflecting the intensity of the conflict and the inordinate threats the fighting is posing to civilians. We call on all sides to exercise maximum restraint and to adhere to obligations under international law to protect civilians and humanitarian workers," said spokesman Chris Gunness.

An Israeli air strike on the house of senior Hamas official Khalil al-Hayya killed his son and daughter-in-law and two children, hospital officials said. Near the southern town of Rafah shelling killed four Palestinians, according to officials.

Israel sent more troops into Gaza overnight after demolishing more than a dozen Hamas tunnels and intensifying tank fire on border areas.

Lt-Col Peter Lerner of the IDF said additional troops had been sent into Gaza on the orders of the government. "Forces have undergone an intensified training and thorough planning period and are prepared and stand ready for the task at hand," he said.

Since the start of Israel-Hamas fighting almost two weeks ago, 348 Palestinians have been killed and 2,700 wounded in Israeli air and artillery strikes, according to Palestinian health officials. A quarter of the deaths were reported since the start of the ground offensive late Thursday, they said.

Shawan Jabarin of the Palestinian human rights organisation Al-Haq, warned that Israel could be committing war crimes. "Israel has one of the most technologically advanced armies in the world both in terms of weaponry and intelligence. Yet, throughout this latest escalation of attacks, as with Operation Cast Lead and Operation Pillar of Defence, we see a disproportionate number of civilian deaths and damage to civilian property."

Jabarin added: "The obligation not to target civilians and civilian infrastructure is absolute and any intentional violation of this obligation amounts to a war crime."

As fighting raged, the UN secretary general, Ban Ki-moon, headed to Qatar on Sunday as part of renewed cease-fire efforts. He was due to meet the Palestinian president, Mahmoud Abbas, in Doha.

Abbas was also expected to meet Khaled Meshaal, the Hamas leader based in the Qatari capital.

Meanwhile, according to the Egyptian newspaper Aharam, the US secretary of state, John Kerry, was travelling to Cairo to aid the mediation effort.

Hamas last week rejected an Egyptian call to both sides to halt hostilities, insisting on advance guarantees that Israel and Egypt will significantly ease their border blockade of Gaza. Qatar has presented a ceasefire proposal incorporating Hamas's demands, while Egypt said on Saturday it had no plans to revise its ceasefire proposal.

Israel is opposed to Qatar's involvement, and insists that Egypt must be a party to any deal. Doha hosts a large number of exiled Islamists from across the Middle East including Meshaal.

The French foreign minister, Laurent Fabius, who flew to Israel after meetings in Egypt and Jordan, said on Saturday efforts to secure a ceasefire had failed. "Sadly I can say that the call for a ceasefire has not been heard, and on the contrary, there's a risk of more civilian casualties that worries us," he said, after talks with the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu.

According to the Israeli military, its soldiers have uncovered 34 shafts leading into about a dozen underground tunnels, some as deep as 30 metres. Israel has said demolishing tunnels is the principal goal of its ground operation and it has released footage showing tunnels being demolished by excavators and air strikes.

The IDF reported there were three cross-border incidents on Saturday. The most serious involved 12 Palestinian militants disguised in Israeli uniforms, who emerged from a tunnel in Israel to fire an anti-tank missile at Israeli troops, killing two and injuring several others.

They were "aiming to carry out a lethal attack" on a nearby Israeli community, the IDF said. The dead soldiers were named as Bar Rahav, 21, and Benayahu Rubel, 20.

At least one Palestinian was killed in the clash. Hamas said its fighters took some of the soldiers' weapons back to their hideouts.

In other confrontations, Palestinian gunmen emerged from tunnels and and exchanged gunfire with Israeli soldiers. Two of the militants were killed, and another died when the explosive vest he was wearing detonated, the military said.

In one incident, Hamas fighters carried tranquilisers and handcuffs, indicating they "intended to abduct Israelis", according to the military.

As the offensive intensified, electricity and water supplies in Gaza were increasingly disrupted.

The Gaza City municipality said a main water line was damaged, leaving parts of the city without water. Gaza has suffered from rolling blackouts for years, but periods without electricity have increased to up to 20 hours at a day.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/jul/20/gaza-thousands-flee-israeli-bombardment

by Guest Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:59 pm

Ads to your other post who is guilty is thus certain Israeli politicians, not Israel itself, you are making a whole nation culpable for the actions of MP's are thus you now culpable for the invasion of Iraq using that illogical view point?

Hamas does bear great responsibilities to the many problems that arise, one being something called suicide bombers!

by Guest Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:00 am

not really, the fact that these things continue to happen is consistant with a govt that is actively involved with "permitting" these "mistakes"

question...who "runs" the army?? ultimately

by Guest Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:02 am

Well consistency actually proves you wrong with the amount of people who have been helped, more to the point Israel is helping them far more than many Arab countries, maybe you wish to explain that!

by Guest Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:08 am

color=#ff0000]]Ads to your other post who is guilty is thus certain Israeli politicians, not Israel itself, you are making a whole nation culpable for the actions of MP's are thus you now culpable for the invasion of Iraq using that illogical view point?

stop spouting crap didge...trying to invent something out of what i said....straw man tactic I believe.....

If I say tory....do I mean the individual tory voter or the party??
If I say israel do I mean the "body corporate" of israel PLC as represented by its governing body or do i mean the individuals that make up that nation known as israel....
since we are talking about war and military matters it takes a special kind of idiot to assume I am talking about the individual israeli (though doubless and inevitably many WILL support the govt and in fact we know this to be the case....)

Hamas does bear great responsibilities to the many problems that arise, one being something called suicide bombers!

glad you mentioned that.....so given your lack of enthusiasm and weak condemnation for the overwheming use of force against civilians

why should we, over here NOT have sent the tanks into sort out the known militant mosques and shelled a few houses where militants were known to exist after the london bombings??

[/quote]

by Guest Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:13 am

Didge wrote:Well consistency actually proves you wrong with the amount of people who have been helped, more to the point Israel is helping them far more than many Arab countries, maybe you wish to explain that!

and yet they keep on denying some ......WHY? the "mistakes" go unpunished...why?
children playing foot ball get shot....oh its a "mistake"
farmers working for their pittance get shot...why...oh it was a "mistake"

sounds more like deliberate and subtle provocation to me....

either the individual IDF soldier is thick (which I doubt) or there is a hardcore at work for some other reason...NO army can make as many mistakes as the IDF without good reason and govt complicity.....

maybe YOU wish to explain THAT

by Guest Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:15 am

I am not spouting crap Victor, that is normally your department as seen, where you have whitewashed blame from Hamas, think their rockets attacks are like rocks being thrown even though people die and people are injured.
Israel is legally allowed to target military instillation, which again you excuse the proof that Hamas places them within civilian areas, again 20 rockets found within a school, which makes the problem for Israel to take out the targets harder, you of course ignore this fact. Again Israel makes many warnings, which again Hamas is on record telling people not to evacuate, it has never built any bomb shelters, yet builds tunnels to attack Israel. This you have ignored in post, after post, after post, after post.
Some actions Israel does are in error and I condemned them, though as seen you down play the fact every attack by Hamas with firing rockets is a war crime.

You need to get your priorities straight, as they are all backwards and as seen when I make your arguments so poor you always resort to abuse, so try to act adult or this debate is pointless as your answers

by Guest Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:18 am

Didge wrote:I am not spouting crap Victor, that is normally your department as seen, where you have whitewashed blame from Hamas, think their rockets attacks are like rocks being thrown even though people die and people are injured.
Israel is legally allowed to target military instillation, which again you excuse the proof that Hamas places them within civilian areas, again 20 rockets found within a school, which makes the problem for Israel to take out the targets harder, you of course ignore this fact. Again Israel makes many warnings, which again Hamas is on record telling people not to evacuate, it has never built any bomb shelters, yet builds tunnels to attack Israel. This you have ignored in post, after post, after post, after post.
Some actions Israel does are in error and I condemned them, though as seen you down play the fact every attack by Hamas with firing rockets is a war crime.

You need to get your priorities straight, as they are all backwards and as seen when I make your arguments so poor you always resort to abuse, so try to act adult or this debate is pointless as your answers

i resort to what you term "abuse" because YOU invent meanings that are clearly not there....straw men didge.....

anyway me old...bed calls....

by Guest Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:18 am

victorisnotamused wrote:
Didge wrote:Well consistency actually proves you wrong with the amount of people who have been helped, more to the point Israel is helping them far more than many Arab countries, maybe you wish to explain that!

and yet they keep on denying some ......WHY? the "mistakes" go unpunished...why?
children playing foot ball get shot....oh its a "mistake"
farmers working for their pittance get shot...why...oh it was a "mistake"

sounds more like deliberate and subtle provocation to me....

either the individual IDF soldier is thick (which I doubt) or there is a hardcore at work for some other reason...NO army can make as many mistakes as the IDF without good reason and govt complicity.....

maybe YOU wish to explain THAT

Yes children get blown up on buses, what justice is there with that Victor, you see I can use your own illogical views points back onto you, I see wrongs on both sides, you only on one, why your argument always falls flat.
Soldiers are always jumpy, you would understand this when children have been abused to be suicide bombers, but being as you have never faced such a dilemma, I doubt you would understand how it would make some soldiers jumpy. As to some soldiers there will also be some who are extreme, we see this in any army, and yet you choose to center on this points, where in many cases no mistakes happen at all!

by Guest Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:19 am

victorisnotamused wrote:
Didge wrote:I am not spouting crap Victor, that is normally your department as seen, where you have whitewashed blame from Hamas, think their rockets attacks are like rocks being thrown even though people die and people are injured.
Israel is legally allowed to target military instillation, which again you excuse the proof that Hamas places them within civilian areas, again 20 rockets found within a school, which makes the problem for Israel to take out the targets harder, you of course ignore this fact. Again Israel makes many warnings, which again Hamas is on record telling people not to evacuate, it has never built any bomb shelters, yet builds tunnels to attack Israel. This you have ignored in post, after post, after post, after post.
Some actions Israel does are in error and I condemned them, though as seen you down play the fact every attack by Hamas with firing rockets is a war crime.

You need to get your priorities straight, as they are all backwards and as seen when I make your arguments so poor you always resort to abuse, so try to act adult or this debate is pointless as your answers

i resort to what you term "abuse" because YOU invent meanings that are clearly not there....straw men didge.....

anyway me old...bed calls....

lol here we go straw man again, go to bed and maybe you will learn something in your sleep and on that I wish you a good night!

by veya_victaous Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:55 am

@didge
Israel has had 1 death to 500 kills... so the retaliation for the Hamas rockets is Excessive to the point of making Israel the greater evil.. Neither side is good so it is just a question of who is being worse 'now'.

At this point IDF's 'mistakes', targeting of schools and hospitals FOR ANY REASON is unacceptable and they need to be Called out for the WAR CRIMINAL they are. the fact 20 rockets were there is not good enough reason for an air-strike on a school or hospital. (100's of rockets have only equated to 1 Israeli death in the recent weeks)

Part of 'Justice' is Keeping the more powerful in check and Israel are Clearly Abusing the greater technological power WITHOUT concern for civilian causality

And the Killing of those kids playing soccer is indefensible even the argument of 'ohh some kids are suicide bombers' is pathetic they were on a beach playing when they were shot by long range cannon from a Military vessel off the coast.... even IF the kids had been strapped with bombs they were not a threat... AND all evidence points to them being targeted by the gunner.

by Guest Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:07 am

veya_victaous wrote:@didge
Israel has had 1 death to 500 kills... so the retaliation for the Hamas rockets is Excessive to the point of making Israel the greater evil.. Neither side is good so it is just a question of who is being worse 'now'.

At this point IDF's 'mistakes', targeting of schools and hospitals FOR ANY REASON is unacceptable and they need to be Called out for the WAR CRIMINAL they are. the fact 20 rockets were there is not good enough reason for an air-strike on a school or hospital. (100's of rockets have only equated to 1 Israeli death in the recent weeks)

Part of 'Justice' is Keeping the more powerful in check and Israel are Clearly Abusing the greater technological power WITHOUT concern for civilian causality

And the Killing of those kids playing soccer is indefensible even the argument of 'ohh some kids are suicide bombers' is pathetic they were on a beach playing when they were shot by long range cannon from a Military vessel off the coast.... even IF the kids had been strapped with bombs they were not a threat... AND all evidence points to them being targeted by the gunner.

Your stats are wrong on deaths Veya, let alone wounded.
Sorry, you are now excusing Hamas clearly being found to be placing rockets in civilian areas a war crime itself as not a legit military target, sorry it is and this is the problem, Hamas does this all the time, Israel is trying to take out the means for Hamas to stop attacking them and as seen Hamas is breaking all human rights by placing civilians in danger, this proving they are wanting civilian deaths for PR and sympathy.
Again many people here do not have the first clue to say about how you would feel if you are an Israeli under attack and until you do, then you can have little comprehension to say, what is right to do in being able to take out military targets. Again I have not denied Israel has done wrongs, but they warn and try to minimize casualties, where Hamas is going out of its way to ensure there are plenty, that point is very telling.

No the point on children being abused to become suicide bombers is the sick fucks that indoctrinate them, get a grip, they are being abused and as Israel has faced more attempted suicide attempts than many nations then people are going to be trigger happy. I am not saying that is right, but giving you a reality check, because when you have had suicide bomb attacks in your country, then you might begin to comprehend this!

by veya_victaous Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:15 am

But they were kids on the beach playing soccer purposely targeted... Israelis themselves are making a mockery of your arguments Sad

ohh and as of today the Israeli civilian death toll stands at 2 (and 25 soldiers)

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/22/world/middleeast/israel-gaza-conflict.html?_r=0

As diplomatic pressure for a cease-fire mounted on the conflict’s 14th day, the Palestinian death toll topped 500 and the number of Israeli soldiers killed hit 25, more than twice as many as in Israel’s last Gaza ground operation in 2009. Two Israeli civilians have also died from rocket and mortar fire.

by veya_victaous Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:17 am

And No I am not excusing Hamas
I am Saying it is MORE EVIL to use long range missiles to Blow up a school with civilians in it than to store 20 rockets there.

by Guest Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:24 am

veya_victaous wrote:And No I am not excusing Hamas
I am Saying it is MORE EVIL to use long range missiles to Blow up a school with civilians in it than to store 20 rockets there.

No it is more evil for Hamas to place these rockets there without the civilians knowing and then to tell them not to leave when warned by Israel.

Night Veya

by veya_victaous Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:51 am

Didge wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:And No I am not excusing Hamas
I am Saying it is MORE EVIL to use long range missiles to Blow up a school with civilians in it than to store 20 rockets there.

No it is more evil for Hamas to place these rockets there without the civilians knowing and then to tell them not to leave when warned by Israel.

Night Veya

THAT is debatable... I would definitely say blowing up school(or hospital) is the more evil... just because your enemy is storing primitive rockets that cant get past you iron dome defence system DOES NOT justify targeting locations where You know there will be LOTS of civilians... Putting Munitions stores/dumps near Hospitals and other 'protected' zones is nothing new either.... maybe you didn't notice that the field hospital in M*A*S*H was located next to one. Cool

And where would they go? all of Palestine is in the firing line! Rolling Eyes

And YES Israel says that But I saw the Palestinian Buses on TV this morning ferrying women and children to 'safer' zones ... although as the Aussie Commenter said 'safer' is relative and basically not a thing in what little remains of Palestinian territory pale

by Guest Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:02 am

veya_victaous wrote:
Didge wrote:

No it is more evil for Hamas to place these rockets there without the civilians knowing and then to tell them not to leave when warned by Israel.

Night Veya

THAT is debatable... I would definitely say blowing up school(or hospital) is the more evil... just because your enemy is storing primitive rockets that cant get past you iron dome defence system DOES NOT justify targeting locations where You know there will be LOTS of civilians... Putting Munitions stores/dumps near Hospitals and other 'protected' zones is nothing new either.... maybe you didn't notice that the field hospital in M*A*S*H was located next to one.

And where would they go? all of Palestine is in the firing line!

And YES Israel says that But I saw the Palestinian Buses on TV this morning ferrying women and children to 'safer' zones ... although as the Aussie Commenter said 'safer' is relative and basically not a thing in what little remains of Palestinian territory

Military targets are legit in war and Hamas is thus placing military targets within civilian areas, thus is a violation of international law and showing they have little regard for the safety of civillians.

The rockets do get past and only because of their inaccuracy, there are not so many casualties, but two are dead with also many injured, so yes it is important to take out such facilities Veya, what is utterly abhorrent is that they place them deliberately within these civilian areas., with again telling people to ignore evacuation calls from Israel, that means they are thus wanting these people to die. It is the tactic of Hamas in every conflict to ensure as much civilian casualties as possible all for PR and sympathy, when they are ensuring it happens, which is why I am appalled people are so rare to condemn them by some on here. Again I am not denying the ground offensive is way over the top and that Israel has done wrongs and war crimes here, but as seen there is more to this and people wrongly think Hamas is innocent here when by far they are not and as stated ensuring people die, even their media messages glorify people dying, which says it all to me. The point is both sides need to stop, there is no excuse not to have a ceasefire.

It is very late and need sleep, so have to go.

by veya_victaous Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:27 am

saying both sides need to stop is very unhelpful and redundant... because "fuckin' DERRRR" everyone thinks they should stop, but they are not and when Hamas did last time Israel Walled off a whole lot of Palestinian territory and Built Illegal settlements on Palestinian land.

Hamas is not Innocent
BUT Israel is Doing far more than just defending itself and is at this point in time MORE culpable for the negative attitudes and conflict in the Area than any other group.
there was a "roadmap to peace" that both sides agreed to, in less than 12 months Israel was pissing all over it taking Palestinian territory again.

Hamas is VERY Bad
BUT Israel is indefensible now...

As much as you are annoyed at people, PEOPLE are getting annoyed with you disregarding ALL the crimes by Israel or Taking 100's Palestinian deaths and saying it is equal to the 2 Israeli.... By any Mathematical Measure Israel is worse dozens of times over

AND there is NO EXCUSE for pressing the button to knowing kill 20+ civilians for 1 enemy combatant... end of story. Doesn't matter HOW bad your enemy is, If you press that button YOU are a monster. and it seems there are plenty of IDF members happy to press it....

Can you name another nation/peoples that thought so little of their fellow human beings of a different ethnicity that they were willing to kill the women and children with out compassion.????... maybe in 1938 Rolling Eyes

THIS IS A SCARY SLOPE.. No One should be giving support to any group acting this way.

But As I said the other day..... Nazi are really nothing more than another entry in the LONG LONG catalogue of Humans doing Shitty thing to each other.. looks like Israel is determined to add another entry to that list.. we should be trying to minimise the Civilian deaths and suffering and we won't do that by making excuses for the People blowing up Hospitals..... no matter who they are or what their history is.

by veya_victaous Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:31 am

I don't blame Individual Israelis I blame the Theocratic Dogma and Propaganda that allows Individuals to Commit these atrocities and still think they are the 'good' guy....

I can not see this ending anyway but catastrophically the History and underlying hatred in that part of the world is just too great to realistically hope for a pleasant solution Sad

by veya_victaous Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:34 am

GO to BED DIDGE

by Guest Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:46 am

veya_victaous wrote:saying both sides need to stop is very unhelpful and redundant... because "fuckin' DERRRR" everyone thinks they should stop, but they are not and when Hamas did last time Israel Walled off a whole lot of Palestinian territory and Built Illegal settlements on Palestinian land.

Absurd point, when clearly Hamas has been offered to stop and refused, thus you miss the point

Hamas is not Innocent
BUT Israel is Doing far more than just defending itself and is at this point in time MORE culpable for the negative attitudes and conflict in the Area than any other group.
there was a "roadmap to peace" that both sides agreed to, in less than 12 months Israel was pissing all over it taking Palestinian territory again.
No the roadmap to peace is with the people of both sides as it will never happen with Hamas in power of the present Israeli Government, which is where so many people go wrong thus the key is to changing perceptions and sorry but many Arabs have taken a hate view point against Israel for years, tot he extent many innocent Jews near 800 000 were displaced from their home and by the same token I do not see many Arab nations up in arms at all the suicide attacks on Israel, let alone what happened in both Jordan and Lebanon

Hamas is VERY Bad
BUT Israel is indefensible now...
Buck stops with Hamas, you are again ignoring tha fact they are trying to create as many Lillian casualties by their methods, I stated Israel has done some wrongs, but Hamas is ensuring they do, that is evil beyond belief to do that to their own people , which you keep failing to grasp

As much as you are annoyed at people, PEOPLE are getting annoyed with you disregarding ALL the crimes by Israel or Taking 100's Palestinian deaths and saying it is equal to the 2 Israeli.... By any Mathematical Measure Israel is worse dozens of times over
Incorrect again, have stated so many times that Israel has committed crimes, so you are once again talking a load of bollocks, and I am not the one who has claimed as you have that you feel sorry for a terrorist organisation in Hamas. Any deaths are wrong and to equate this by numbers shows you have no compression of threats and danger to a society, where one Hamas has vowed to wipe out Israel. I will repeat for you again, even though it is over countless threads, that in this conflict Israel has committed war crimes, so please do not spout lies. I am getting tired of people defending terrorists and white washing the points I keep making, but hey ho

AND there is NO EXCUSE for pressing the button to knowing kill 20+ civilians for 1 enemy combatant... end of story. Doesn't matter HOW bad your enemy is, If you press that button YOU are a monster. and it seems there are plenty of IDF members happy to press it....
There is a big difference to warning people have seen people leave to have people still there, if Israel had not warned, the death toll would have been in the ten's of thousands, showing you lack compression on what is the capabilities of their weaponry. So most IDF, have made warnings expect people to leave and and in other cases where they have seen people not leave they have not attacked all caught on video, so again, you are just not looking into this correctly, again though I am not denying wrongs or mistakes

Can you name another nation/peoples that thought so little of their fellow human beings of a different ethnicity that they were willing to kill the women and children with out compassion.????... maybe in 1938
THIS IS A SCARY SLOPE.. No One should be giving support to any group acting this way.
Yes the Palestinians, as explained, with Lebanon, Jordan, and of course their cowardly suicide attacks on Israel, which of course you must not count such attacks on civilians in Israel as in anyway wrong I guess, if you equate one you this must equate the other for doing as you claim

But As I said the other day..... Nazi are really nothing more than another entry in the LONG LONG catalogue of Humans doing Shitty thing to each other.. looks like Israel is determined to add another entry to that list.. we should be trying to minimise the Civilian deaths and suffering and we won't do that by making excuses for the People blowing up Hospitals..... no matter who they are or what their history is.

Really so you must think the British and Americans are Nazi's for drone attacks which kill civilians then, sorry there is such a thing sadly as collateral damage, where you are claiming there intent is to kill as many civilians as possible, as seen that is flawed, because if Israel id, the death toll with what they have fired and without warnings would be more 10,000 not 500.
Right I will answer any more when up

by Guest Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:47 am

veya_victaous wrote:GO to BED DIDGE

I am now thanks, was having trouble sleeping, have things on my mind

Night

by veya_victaous Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:06 am

The UN Security Council is holding an emergency meeting at the moment to work out what the hell to do as the Palestinian death toll climbs to 548 after a fresh wave of Israeli shelling, including four killed when a hospital was struck. An estimated 83,000 people have been displaced within the strip – where, just to be clear, they can still be bombed – and there are fears this is turning into a major humanitarian crisis for food and medical supplies running dangerously low.

What the UN can actually do is unclear, since Gaza is under control of Hamas and Israel will not negotiate with anyone who negotiates with Hamas - including the Palestinian Authority, who are the ones dealing with the UN. You might think that looks a little like Israel imposing a deliberately impossible condition in order to justify refusing to negotiate, but they'd get quite hurt at such a suggestion.

Egypt is still attempting to broker a ceasefire since it's one of the few regional powers with whom Israel will deal, and the Palestinian Authority are open to discussions with them. However, Hamas will not deal with Egypt. Goddamn, this is like paper-scissors-rock, only with a lot more people being needlessly killed.

by Original Quill Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:15 am

Irn Bru wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I mean to say that the Israeli response was quite temperate, considering the provocation.

Really! Do you think that the Israeli's would have been justified in killing even more Palestinian's and increase the expansion of the settlements?

I think that Israel is doing the responsible thing. We have two choices: One, we could sit here for a couple of hundred years, making Russian missile manufacturers rich and slaughtering Israelis, while Hamas/Gaza perfects it's launching protocol; or two, we can march Israeli troops into Gaza, liberate the Palestinians from Hamas, and bring civilization back to Gaza.

Another alternative, I suppose, is for Israel to simply take back Gaza. It's got some nice beaches that would make excellent resort properties. But I don't think Israel wants to do that. I think it wants to do the right thing.

In many ways Israel is faced with the same dilemma that the Egyptian army faced last year. There, the Muslim Brotherhood was democratically elected, and quickly prepared the way to usher out democracy and usher in a theocracy. Likewise, Gaza democratically elected Hamas, who has promptly turned the keys over to Iran. Ever since, Iran has promoted this policy of attacking Israel openly, while holding bloodied Palestinian women and children up as shields, and trading on the publicity reaped from the maiming and killing. Iran will do anything to maximize the misery in Gaza, because for them the publicity is money in the bank.

The only way to stop this vicious cycle is for the Israeli army to go in, clear out Hamas, and restore peace and civilization to Gaza. Who else is going to do it? Oh, shall we invite in Iran directly? There's the fox in the hen house. Perhaps this new ISIL government can be depended upon to cuddle the babies and tend to the wounds of the injured. Europe, do you wish to volunteer? Germany, France and Britain...the three stooges?? Australia, maybe you and the Kiwis would like to try? Bet on Russia to be over there with Iran. And I can tell you this: after America's longest war and $17-trillion in debt, the US just doesn't give a sheit. And frankly, we are quite comfortable over here in the Americas......eez not our yob, mon.

Let's face it folks. You, like we, haven't got anyone but Israel to do this. Stop wringing your feckless hands and get used to it.

by veya_victaous Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:39 am

Didge wrote:
veya_victaous wrote:saying both sides need to stop is very unhelpful and redundant... because "fuckin' DERRRR" everyone thinks they should stop, but they are not and when Hamas did last time Israel Walled off a whole lot of Palestinian territory and Built Illegal settlements on Palestinian land.

Absurd point, when clearly Hamas has been offered to stop and refused, thus you miss the point
Hamas as proven by the death toll cannot do shit to Israel, Israel could stop it today if they wanted as they Have already won the military battle they are just engaging in a policy of Annihilation at the moment. Israel doesn't have to be evil and continue murdering civilians because there are a few terrorists

Hamas is not Innocent
BUT Israel is Doing far more than just defending itself and is at this point in time MORE culpable for the negative attitudes and conflict in the Area than any other group.
there was a "roadmap to peace" that both sides agreed to, in less than 12 months Israel was pissing all over it taking Palestinian territory again.
No the roadmap to peace is with the people of both sides as it will never happen with Hamas in power of the present Israeli Government, which is where so many people go wrong thus the key is to changing perceptions and sorry but many Arabs have taken a hate view point against Israel for years, tot he extent many innocent Jews near 800 000 were displaced from their home and by the same token I do not see many Arab nations up in arms at all the suicide attacks on Israel, let alone what happened in both Jordan and Lebanon
SEE previous post seem VERY FUCKING unreasonable of Israel. Why Do Israel get to decide the negotiator and Completely deny a voice NOT only to Hamas But any that even suggest Hamas may have a point????. Cause it's not really negotiating IF you say only if we only have to talk to people that like us and the decision has to be made by someone favouring us.

Hamas is VERY Bad
BUT Israel is indefensible now...
Buck stops with Hamas, you are again ignoring tha fact they are trying to create as many Lillian casualties by their methods, I stated Israel has done some wrongs, but Hamas is ensuring they do, that is evil beyond belief to do that to their own people , which you keep failing to grasp
NO Buck stop with the person doing the Killing GET THAT THRU YOUR HEAD it matters not to the Child with limbs blown off what the fuck political motivations there are What theoretical Justification you can make,. THE PERSON THAT BLOWS UP CHILDREN IS IN THE WRONG doesn't matter what anyone else in the world is doing!!!! if you are pressing the button to blow up dozens of civilians YOU ARE A MONSTER!!!!! It was you that said 2 wrongs don't make a right but they apparently according to you it justifies the murder of children!!!!!

As much as you are annoyed at people, PEOPLE are getting annoyed with you disregarding ALL the crimes by Israel or Taking 100's Palestinian deaths and saying it is equal to the 2 Israeli.... By any Mathematical Measure Israel is worse dozens of times over
Incorrect again, have stated so many times that Israel has committed crimes, so you are once again talking a load of bollocks, and I am not the one who has claimed as you have that you feel sorry for a terrorist organisation in Hamas. Any deaths are wrong and to equate this by numbers shows you have no compression of threats and danger to a society, where one Hamas has vowed to wipe out Israel. I will repeat for you again, even though it is over countless threads, that in this conflict Israel has committed war crimes, so please do not spout lies. I am getting tired of people defending terrorists and white washing the points I keep making, but hey ho
YES but you saying Israel committed a crime and then saying it is Equal to the crime of Hamas when Clearly it is not by Any measurable figure (Like DEATH TOLL or Children killed or Civilian casualties) YOU ARE DEFENDING TERRORISTS In case you hadn't noticed A fair few people on this site are Telling YOU TO STOP DEFENDING TERRORISTS.. and as the Numbers come down as 548 to 27 (including combatants on both sides) Pretty Apparent WHO IS THE BIGGEST TERRORIST

AND there is NO EXCUSE for pressing the button to knowing kill 20+ civilians for 1 enemy combatant... end of story. Doesn't matter HOW bad your enemy is, If you press that button YOU are a monster. and it seems there are plenty of IDF members happy to press it....
There is a big difference to warning people have seen people leave to have people still there, if Israel had not warned, the death toll would have been in the ten's of thousands, showing you lack compression on what is the capabilities of their weaponry. So most IDF, have made warnings expect people to leave and and in other cases where they have seen people not leave they have not attacked all caught on video, so again, you are just not looking into this correctly, again though I am not denying wrongs or mistakes
Did you watch the video of the "Israeli Warning" a Siren less than 2 minutes before Missile Struck the Large Multi story building!!!! that warning is MORE INSULT that is Crap the biggest laziest excuse for ATTEMPTING GENOCIDE I have ever fucking heard. You know What NAZI warned Jews too, there was a few years of warnings in the rise of the Nazi party.. YOU can SEE the idea of "warning" people you are about to commit a WAR CRIME does not mean SHIT I am amazed that you have the balls to even suggest it does.

Can you name another nation/peoples that thought so little of their fellow human beings of a different ethnicity that they were willing to kill the women and children with out compassion.????... maybe in 1938
THIS IS A SCARY SLOPE.. No One should be giving support to any group acting this way.
Yes the Palestinians, as explained, with Lebanon, Jordan, and of course their cowardly suicide attacks on Israel, which of course you must not count such attacks on civilians in Israel as in anyway wrong I guess, if you equate one you this must equate the other for doing as you claim
Umm In My 30 year life I have constantly seen media of some Muslims kills under half dozen Israeli and Israel responded by killing Dozens in return... So maybe it is the Age we were born in But for the last few decades Israel has been the bigger killer time and time again..

But As I said the other day..... Nazi are really nothing more than another entry in the LONG LONG catalogue of Humans doing Shitty thing to each other.. looks like Israel is determined to add another entry to that list.. we should be trying to minimise the Civilian deaths and suffering and we won't do that by making excuses for the People blowing up Hospitals..... no matter who they are or what their history is.

Really so you must think the British and Americans are Nazi's for drone attacks which kill civilians then, sorry there is such a thing sadly as collateral damage, where you are claiming there intent is to kill as many civilians as possible, as seen that is flawed, because if Israel id, the death toll with what they have fired and without warnings would be more 10,000 not 500.

HELL YEAH I have been saying that since Day one.... putting armed drones on the battle field makes them the WORST HUMAN BEINGS in the vibrant History of Shitty Human beings.

And obviously Israel wants to commit genocide on them with as little international condemnation as possible (pretty normal for nations committing genocide ).... which people like you are making sure happens by making excuse for someone strong enough they don't need excuse made for them. Maybe it's just me But I expect A nation with Wealth and industry and advanced military to be 'better' than some barely legitimate 'terrorist' group

You don't happen to be a Zionist?

Right I will answer any more when up

by Ben Reilly Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:57 am

Really enjoying the different-colored fonts, guys Smile

Nice system, it makes it easier to follow.

Oh, you want my take? (Probably not, but OK anyway) both sides are fucking bastards and it's impossible to pick the good guy. IMPOSSIBLE.

That's because there are people on either side willing to commit horrible murders, while people ostensibly on the same side of the butchers would never do such a thing.

The only possible solution is for both sides to stop fighting (the hippy solution). But that will never happen, so the innocent, civilized people of each side are screwed over by the butchers of each side. And the butchers control the political machinery on each side and are terrific at keeping the well-intentioned from ever taking power.

Doom, chaos, death, destruction. It is the inevitable destiny of every nation that allows the murderers to take control. And so far, every nation has done exactly that.

by Original Quill Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:07 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:Really enjoying the different-colored fonts, guys Nice system, it makes it easier to follow.

Oh, you want my take? (Probably not, but OK anyway) both sides are fucking bastards and it's impossible to pick the good guy. IMPOSSIBLE.

That's because there are people on either side willing to commit horrible murders, while people ostensibly on the same side of the butchers would never do such a thing.

The only possible solution is for both sides to stop fighting (the hippy solution). But that will never happen, so the innocent, civilized people of each side are screwed over by the butchers of each side. And the butchers control the political machinery on each side and are terrific at keeping the well-intentioned from ever taking power.

Doom, chaos, death, destruction. It is the inevitable destiny of every nation that allows the murderers to take control. And so far, every nation has done exactly that.

Marvin says: I'm so fuckin' depressed... Twisted Evil

by Ben Reilly Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:36 am

Hmmm, is that a reference?

by Original Quill Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:55 am

Ben_Reilly wrote:Hmmm, is that a reference?

Haven't you seen The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? Reference to Marvin the Robot.

'Death and horror' in Gaza as thousands flee Israeli bombardment - Page 2 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQCUe4UcfoJIuhDOOJqS_v3XeIDGEDIZFJn_tSKgwlbxXT8syZf

'Death and horror' in Gaza as thousands flee Israeli bombardment - Page 2 Images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQCUe4UcfoJIuhDOOJqS_v3XeIDGEDIZFJn_tSKgwlbxXT8syZf

by Ben Reilly Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:28 am

Original Quill wrote:
Ben_Reilly wrote:Hmmm, is that a reference?

Haven't you seen The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy? Reference to Marvin the Robot.

Geez, I read it ages ago, but I'm going to level with you -- my head is like a sieve Smile

(Do you get that reference?)

by Ben Reilly Tue Jul 22, 2014 6:36 am

Sorry -- in order not to hijack a serious thread, I'm going to post this under Arts & Entertainment. You'll know it when you see it.

by Guest Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:06 am

Original Quill wrote:
Irn Bru wrote:

Really! Do you think that the Israeli's would have been justified in killing even more Palestinian's and increase the expansion of the settlements?

I think that Israel is doing the responsible thing. We have two choices: One, we could sit here for a couple of hundred years, making Russian missile manufacturers rich and slaughtering Israelis, while Hamas/Gaza perfects it's launching protocol; or two, we can march Israeli troops into Gaza, liberate the Palestinians from Hamas, and bring civilization back to Gaza.

Another alternative, I suppose, is for Israel to simply take back Gaza. It's got some nice beaches that would make excellent resort properties. But I don't think Israel wants to do that. I think it wants to do the right thing.

In many ways Israel is faced with the same dilemma that the Egyptian army faced last year. There, the Muslim Brotherhood was democratically elected, and quickly prepared the way to usher out democracy and usher in a theocracy. Likewise, Gaza democratically elected Hamas, who has promptly turned the keys over to Iran. Ever since, Iran has promoted this policy of attacking Israel openly, while holding bloodied Palestinian women and children up as shields, and trading on the publicity reaped from the maiming and killing. Iran will do anything to maximize the misery in Gaza, because for them the publicity is money in the bank.

The only way to stop this vicious cycle is for the Israeli army to go in, clear out Hamas, and restore peace and civilization to Gaza. Who else is going to do it? Oh, shall we invite in Iran directly? There's the fox in the hen house. Perhaps this new ISIL government can be depended upon to cuddle the babies and tend to the wounds of the injured. Europe, do you wish to volunteer? Germany, France and Britain...the three stooges?? Australia, maybe you and the Kiwis would like to try? Bet on Russia to be over there with Iran. And I can tell you this: after America's longest war and $17-trillion in debt, the US just doesn't give a sheit. And frankly, we are quite comfortable over here in the Americas......eez not our yob, mon.

Let's face it folks. You, like we, haven't got anyone but Israel to do this. Stop wringing your feckless hands and get used to it.

well said very good post

by Original Quill Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:52 pm

Thank you, LMP.

by Guest Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:26 pm

Original Quill wrote:Thank you, LMP.

you are welcome

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