Who Thinks We Should Help In Iraq & Syria?

19th June 2014

Should we send drones, planes or troops?

Who should we help - the government or the "freedom fighters"/"terrorists" - choose your own title for them?

I think we should help the governments tackle these terrorists.

Just finished watching a couple videos on ISIS and those are some scary fucks. I hate to contemplate another war in the Middle East, but I think these guys are going to have to be confronted.

A week ago I was a no on intervention.

Having watched and read the wires my thought process is changing.

We along with the US started this mess, maybe we finish it.  BO was wrong to withdraw troops out as he did, Bush and Bliar were wrong to remove the Iraq army and Police as they considered all to be members of the B'aathists party and a danger to the new Iraq.

No succession plan was considered never mind discussed nor put into operation.

Hey we will remove the President, remove all the powers of the army and police  and have an election............  No worries.  All will want to vote and law and order will be decided by whoever gets power...........  Bull poo ppos.

But we will not allow any sect other than ours to have any say in the running of the country ' cause I am the boss now.

China - it is accepted as read the power is the power.  Russia maybe.  N Korea most definitely you will be dead otherwise.........

Pattern emerging and the west AKA the US , UK and France helped to destroy the status quo.

I remember way back in the Bush days we lefties were saying you can't take out a power like the B'aathists without leaving a vacuum in its place that all number of baddies will rush to fill. Iraq has been a tinderbox since it was carved out of the Ottoman Empire and Saddam was the only one who could keep a lid on it, bastard that he was.

Ben_Reilly wrote:I remember way back in the Bush days we lefties were saying you can't take out a power like the B'aathists without leaving a vacuum in its place that all number of baddies will rush to fill. Iraq has been a tinderbox since it was carved out of the Ottoman Empire and Saddam was the only one who could keep a lid on it, bastard that he was.

And rightly so.  But would the world i.e. the west have had any interest had not oil been within the confines of the country as laid down after W11  The oil was not the commodity in fact almost unknown in the region....

Ben.........

Rws and lefties can agree sometimes.................

I say again, I listened to all the arguements for the war from the UN presentation ( watched live ) to the HOC by bliar ( watched live ). I was in favour of action ................  The presentations that I could not nor was I able to verify seemed more than credible.  

Sometimes one has to put trust in a leader................  That in my case was our PM...............  The head of our Parliament, the one we ( Not me ) had voted for democratically.......... 

The problem I have and have had for years is the feeling we were lied to.  It was a means to an end as far as Bush and bliar wre concerned,  Anothr election another win.

DR. David kelly lost his life for another tenureship along with many many innocent troops..

can I ever forgive the lies.........  No.  mainly because people have died, thousands have died and for what another four years in the Whitehouse and 10 Downing Street..........

Thousands of Iraqis have since died........More today, many more tomorrow.  Thousands will spend the next how ever long displaced no home, no school, no hope, all beacuse Bush and bliar needed re electing.

Has either spoken of remorse...............  Bliar has spoken but only to say job not done......  we need to go in again.

Do we ?

maybe we owe the Iraqis.................  but we do not owe bliar nor bush.

Difficult one to call.

Interestingly, I've been arguing much the same in numerous threads here, that it's not differences between cultures as much as competition over dwindling resources that is driving much of the conflict in the world.

Maybe if I was a RWer people wouldn't act like I'm living in a land of rainbows and lollipops when I say that ...

sorry no. we cant afford it either economically or in personnel.
no amount of help in whatever form will solve the problems in the middle east or gulf states.

I know about the innocent people, I know its heartbreaking, I know the western countries are responsible but no. we must draw a line somewhere.


I smell mission creep despite the denials.

Cass wrote:sorry no. we cant afford it either economically or in personnel.
no amount of help in whatever form will solve the problems in the middle east or gulf states.

I know about the innocent people, I know its heartbreaking, I know the western countries are responsible but no. we must draw a line somewhere.


I smell mission creep despite the denials.

My problem with that is, ISIS isn't just a wanna-be al Qaeda, they're probably more powerful than al Qaeda at this point and were built off an al Qaeda group to boot. They want to dominate most of the Middle East and they are strong enough that now they make the laws and even levy taxes where they're in charge.

Not to get all Godwin, but it does sound a bit like the Nazis ...

Ben_Reilly wrote:

Cass wrote:sorry no. we cant afford it either economically or in personnel.
no amount of help in whatever form will solve the problems in the middle east or gulf states.

I know about the innocent people, I know its heartbreaking, I know the western countries are responsible but no. we must draw a line somewhere.
I smell mission creep despite the denials.

My problem with that is, ISIS isn't just a wanna-be al Qaeda, they're probably more powerful than al Qaeda at this point and were built off an al Qaeda group to boot. They want to dominate most of the Middle East and they are strong enough that now they make the laws and even levy taxes where they're in charge.

Not to get all Godwin, but it does sound a bit like the Nazis ...

all hardline idealologies are the same no matter what side of the political spectrum.

watching a great thing on CNN on Vietnam war.....Deja-vous

Would just like to point out that this was a thread where I not only responded courteously to BA but also agreed with his take on things.

Which would tend to undercut the theory that I simply hate BA and oppose everything he says here on that basis.

Ben_Reilly wrote:Would just like to point out that this was a thread where I not only responded courteously to BA but also agreed with his take on things.

Which would tend to undercut the theory that I simply hate BA and oppose everything he says here on that basis.

Excellent, now we just have to get you moderating Phil and bob's your uncle, fannys your aunt!

OP= no. No more western intervention. Bet we do though

gerber wrote:The Obama administration asked Congress on Thursday to authorize $500 million in direct U.S. military training and equipment for Syrian opposition fighters, a move that could significantly escalate U.S. involvement in Syria’s civil war.


A separate $1 billion European Reassurance Initiative would pay for the expanded U.S. military presence in Eastern Europe — including aircraft, troops and pre-positioned equipment — begun in response to Russian aggression in Ukraine.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-backs-us-military-training-for-syrian-rebels/2014/06/26/ead59104-fd62-11e3-932c-0a55b81f48ce_story.html


This to me feels like the closing of the barn door after the horse has bolred.


Why now and not when it could really have been helpfull.    As a comment has already said


" A dollar short a day late "


Couldn't agree more.

The Syrian rebels are Al-qaeda basically - so let me get this straight: The US spend ten years, billions of dollars and kill thousands of American soldiers trying to defeat al-qaeda in Iraq, now they're going to spend millions training them. Couldn't make it up.

Tesstacious wrote:

gerber wrote:The Obama administration asked Congress on Thursday to authorize $500 million in direct U.S. military training and equipment for Syrian opposition fighters, a move that could significantly escalate U.S. involvement in Syria’s civil war.


A separate $1 billion European Reassurance Initiative would pay for the expanded U.S. military presence in Eastern Europe — including aircraft, troops and pre-positioned equipment — begun in response to Russian aggression in Ukraine.



http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/obama-backs-us-military-training-for-syrian-rebels/2014/06/26/ead59104-fd62-11e3-932c-0a55b81f48ce_story.html


This to me feels like the closing of the barn door after the horse has bolred.


Why now and not when it could really have been helpfull.    As a comment has already said


" A dollar short a day late "


Couldn't agree more.

The Syrian rebels are Al-qaeda basically - so let me get this straight: The US spend ten years, billions of dollars and kill thousands of American soldiers trying to defeat al-qaeda in Iraq, now they're going to spend millions training them.  Couldn't make it up.

Yep in short bang on.


Maybe they realise the five released from Gmo was a mistake and are dangerous afterall.

Sorry Tess that is bullshit they are all AlQaeda, what about the Free Syrian army?


Anyway:



(Reuters) - Iraqi forces launched an airborne assault on rebel-held Tikrit on Thursday with commandos flown into a stadium in helicopters, at least one of which crashed after taking fire from insurgents who have seized northern cities.
Witnesses said battles were raging in the city, hometown of former dictator Saddam Hussein, which fell to Sunni Islamist fighters two weeks ago on the third day of a lightning offensive that has given them control of most majority Sunni regions.
The helicopters were shot at as they flew low over the city and landed in a stadium at the city's university, a security source at the scene said. Government spokesmen did not respond to requests for comment and by evening the assault was still not being reported on state media.
The source, speaking on condition of anonymity, said fierce clashes ensued, centered around the university compound.

Ahmed al-Jubbour, professor at the university's college of agriculture, described fighting in the colleges of agriculture and sports education after three helicopters arrived.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/06/27/us-iraq-security-idUSKBN0F10TF20140627

gerber wrote:

Tesstacious wrote:
The Syrian rebels are Al-qaeda basically - so let me get this straight: The US spend ten years, billions of dollars and kill thousands of American soldiers trying to defeat al-qaeda in Iraq, now they're going to spend millions training them.  Couldn't make it up.

Yep in short bang on.


Maybe they realise the five released from Gmo was a mistake and are dangerous afterall.

Maybe you should ask Bush that?

http://thedailybanter.com/2014/06/gop-bergdahl-deal-obamas-willie-horton-moment-even-though-bush-released-detainees/

i think we should help them out by allowing them to fight it out amongst themselves without sticking our nose in

Didge wrote:Sorry Tess that is bullshit they are all AlQaeda, what about the Free Syrian army?

BEIRUT — A Syrian rebel group's April pledge of allegiance to al-Qaeda's replacement for Osama bin Laden suggests that the terrorist group's influence is not waning and that it may take a greater role in the Western-backed fight to topple Syrian President Bashar Assad.

The pledge of allegiance by Syrian Jabhat al Nusra Front chief Abou Mohamad al-Joulani to al-Qaeda leader Sheik Ayman al-Zawahri was coupled with an announcement by the al-Qaeda affiliate in Iraq, the Islamic State of Iraq, that it would work with al Nusra as well. Lebanese Sheik Omar Bakri, a Salafist who says states must be governed by Muslim religious law, says al-Qaeda has assisted al Nusra for some time.

"They provided them early on with technical, military and financial support , especially when it came to setting up networks of foreign jihadis who were brought into Syria," Bakri says. "There will certainly be greater coordination between the two groups."..

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/04/11/syria-al-qaeda-connection/2075323/

Tesstacious wrote:

Didge wrote:Sorry Tess that is bullshit they are all AlQaeda, what about the Free Syrian army?

BEIRUT — A Syrian rebel group's April pledge of allegiance to al-Qaeda's replacement for Osama bin Laden suggests that the terrorist group's influence is not waning and that it may take a greater role in the Western-backed fight to topple Syrian President Bashar Assad.

The pledge of allegiance by Syrian Jabhat al Nusra Front chief Abou Mohamad al-Joulani to al-Qaeda leader Sheik Ayman al-Zawahri was coupled with an announcement by the al-Qaeda affiliate in Iraq, the Islamic State of Iraq, that it would work with al Nusra as well.  Lebanese Sheik Omar Bakri, a Salafist who says states must be governed by Muslim religious law, says al-Qaeda has assisted al Nusra for some time.

"They provided them early on with technical, military and financial support , especially when it came to setting up networks of foreign jihadis who were brought into Syria," Bakri says. "There will certainly be greater coordination between the two groups."..

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/04/11/syria-al-qaeda-connection/2075323/

Again what has that to do with the Free Syrian Army?

Didge wrote:

Tesstacious wrote:

BEIRUT — A Syrian rebel group's April pledge of allegiance to al-Qaeda's replacement for Osama bin Laden suggests that the terrorist group's influence is not waning and that it may take a greater role in the Western-backed fight to topple Syrian President Bashar Assad.

The pledge of allegiance by Syrian Jabhat al Nusra Front chief Abou Mohamad al-Joulani to al-Qaeda leader Sheik Ayman al-Zawahri was coupled with an announcement by the al-Qaeda affiliate in Iraq, the Islamic State of Iraq, that it would work with al Nusra as well.  Lebanese Sheik Omar Bakri, a Salafist who says states must be governed by Muslim religious law, says al-Qaeda has assisted al Nusra for some time.

"They provided them early on with technical, military and financial support , especially when it came to setting up networks of foreign jihadis who were brought into Syria," Bakri says. "There will certainly be greater coordination between the two groups."..

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2013/04/11/syria-al-qaeda-connection/2075323/

Again what has that to do with the Free Syrian Army?

Fuck all. It has to do with the US arming Al-qaeda!

Tesstacious wrote:

Didge wrote:


Again what has that to do with the Free Syrian Army?

Fuck all.  It has to do with the US arming Al-qaeda!

Well there is nothing new there, they once use to arm the Mujahideen against the Russians, different enemy then, that was the Republicans by the way

yeah we can help out...help the world that is...

carpet nuke the middle east from one end to the other...turn it into a car park

victorisnotamused wrote:yeah we can help out...help the world that is...

carpet nuke the middle east from one end to the other...turn it into a car park

I think if we left them alone they'd pretty much manage to do that by themselves; that's why they still act and dress as they did a thousand years ago!

victorisnotamused wrote:yeah we can help out...help the world that is...

carpet nuke the middle east from one end to the other...turn it into a car park

Wow, Fox news eat your heart out.

Tesstacious wrote:

victorisnotamused wrote:yeah we can help out...help the world that is...

carpet nuke the middle east from one end to the other...turn it into a car park

I think if we left them alone they'd pretty much manage to do that by themselves; that's why they still act and dress as they did a thousand years ago!

Well he has just wiped out Israel as well, which is very daft and countless millions of innocent people, but I guess this view thus means he views all Muslims, Christians, Jews, Samaritans, Druze, Yazidi, and countless others as collateral damage in taking out a several thousands of extremists.

I think it may have been a joke didge.

nicko wrote:I think it may have been a joke didge.

Not a very funny one though is it Nicko?

Didge wrote:

victorisnotamused wrote:yeah we can help out...help the world that is...

carpet nuke the middle east from one end to the other...turn it into a car park

Wow, Fox news eat your heart out.

I take it you dont think I'd make the grade as a diplomat then didge???

victorisnotamused wrote:

Didge wrote:


Wow, Fox news eat your heart out.

I take it you dont think I'd make the grade as a diplomat then didge???

You sound like an English version of  Randy Newman