The picture that has sickened France: Roma teen, 16, left for dead in a shopping trolley after Paris vigilantes kidnap and torture him over suspected burglary

These are the shocking pictures of a Roma teenager who was beaten and left for dead in a supermarket trolley.


Vigilantes kidnapped the 16-year-old boy, known only as Darius, from the camp he shares with his family near the northern commuter town of Pierrefitte-sur-Seine on the outskirts of Paris.


The thugs rang the youngster's mother demanding a €12,000 ransom for the safe return of her son. The figure was later reduced to €4,000, but when it was not paid, the gang battered Darius before dumping him in a shopping trolley before leaving it on the roadside


Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2661763/French-vigilantes-left-Roma-teenager-coma-suspected-burglary-demanded-12-000-cash-mother-return-unharmed.html#ixzz3568mRE6H
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

Oh my God! How awful!!! I can only presume the parents either didn't have the money or were advised not to pay by police?
Either way.....this will haunt them forever.

What a horrible bunch of evil bastards.

Poor boy. May he rest in peace x

an illegal roma gypsy no doubt looking to come here and sponge benefits and groom white British girls

smelly_bandit wrote:an illegal roma gypsy no doubt looking to come here and sponge benefits and groom white British girls

Fallacy association fail the same logic as the Nazis

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:an illegal roma gypsy no doubt looking to come here and sponge benefits and groom white British girls

Fallacy association fail the same logic as the Nazis

why do you use it with Muslims all the time then??

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:


Fallacy association fail the same logic as the Nazis

why do you use it with Muslims all the time then??

I never do, that is your party trick as seen on the Iraq thread, where you use modern day examples of extremism with Jiyza.

You make up the most funniest bullshit to excuse your stupidity, mainly because you are an ignorant Neo Nazi of course

I suppose you think the Roma are also inferior do you as well?

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

why do you use it with Muslims all the time then??

I never do, that is your party trick as seen on the Iraq thread, where you use modern day examples of extremism with Jiyza.

You make up the most funniest bullshit to excuse your stupidity, mainly because you are an ignorant Neo Nazi of course

I suppose you think the Roma are also inferior do you as well?

piss off   

you are the worst for association fallacy didge

if you honestly don realize you're doing then that's even funnier

but you've already done it this very morning on the Iraq thread

its always only ever a matter of time with you didge

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:



I never do, that is your party trick as seen on the Iraq thread, where you use modern day examples of extremism with Jiyza.

You make up the most funniest bullshit to excuse your stupidity, mainly because you are an ignorant Neo Nazi of course

I suppose you think the Roma are also inferior do you as well?

piss off   

you are the worst for association fallacy didge

if you honestly don realize you're doing then that's even funnier

but you've already done it this very morning on the Iraq thread

its always only ever a matter of time with you didge

 ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/: 

You want me to piss off because I keep making you look a right brainless fuckwit?

I do not do fallacy association, so much so you can never provide any examples when I do, you have to make them up, because you are a brainless Neo Nazi.

So post your evidence dummy, ha ha. all you do is make idiotic claims, because you are a halfwit 

As seen on the debate with the Jiyza, you keep using extremists thus making a fallacy association argument

DOH

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

piss off   

you are the worst for association fallacy didge

if you honestly don realize you're doing then that's even funnier

but you've already done it this very morning on the Iraq thread

its always only ever a matter of time with you didge

 ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/: 

You want me to piss off because I keep making you look a right brainless fuckwit?

I do not do fallacy association, so much so you can never provide any examples when I do, you have to make them up, because you are a brainless Neo Nazi.

So post your evidence dummy, ha ha. all you do is make idiotic claims, because you are a halfwit 

As seen on the debate with the Jiyza, you keep using extremists thus making a fallacy association argument

DOH

want me to prove it??

ok

the qur'an commands ALL Muslims to fight and kill ALL non Muslims until they either convert to islam to submit and pay an extortion protection tax or are killed

this is what Islam teaches and what ALL Muslims are commanded to do

Islam is therefore a hateful warmongering ideology

 ::D:: 

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:


 ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/: 

You want me to piss off because I keep making you look a right brainless fuckwit?

I do not do fallacy association, so much so you can never provide any examples when I do, you have to make them up, because you are a brainless Neo Nazi.

So post your evidence dummy, ha ha. all you do is make idiotic claims, because you are a halfwit 

As seen on the debate with the Jiyza, you keep using extremists thus making a fallacy association argument

DOH

want me to prove it??

ok

the qur'an commands ALL Muslims to fight and kill ALL non Muslims until they either convert to islam to submit and pay an extortion protection tax or are killed

this is what Islam teaches and what ALL Muslims are commanded to do

Islam is therefore a hateful warmongering ideology  

 ::D:: 

 ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/: 

I disagree, because as seen through history that is false, show me for every year Muslims engaging in constant war with every nation for the last 1400 years?


Take your time dummy

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

want me to prove it??

ok

the qur'an commands ALL Muslims to fight and kill ALL non Muslims until they either convert to islam to submit and pay an extortion protection tax or are killed

this is what Islam teaches and what ALL Muslims are commanded to do

Islam is therefore a hateful warmongering ideology  

 ::D:: 

 ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/: 

I disagree, because as seen through history that is false, show me for every year Muslims engaging in constant war with every nation for the last 1400 years?


Take your time dummy

i knew you couldn't resist

why would Muslims be at war with every nation for 1400??

go on didge tell me why

 ::D:: 

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:


 ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/:  ://?roflmao?/: 

I disagree, because as seen through history that is false, show me for every year Muslims engaging in constant war with every nation for the last 1400 years?


Take your time dummy

i knew you couldn't resist

why would Muslims be at war with every nation for 1400??

go on didge tell me why

 ::D:: 

You tell me, that is your claim not mine, ha ha

What a wally

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

i knew you couldn't resist

why would Muslims be at war with every nation for 1400??

go on didge tell me why

 ::D:: 

You tell me, that is your claim not mine, ha ha

What a wally

all i said was

the qur'an commands ALL Muslims to fight and kill ALL non Muslims until they either convert to islam to submit and pay an extortion protection tax or are killed

this is what Islam teaches and what ALL Muslims are commanded to do

Islam is therefore a hateful warmongering ideology



you've already used association fallacy on this thread didge

this is where you use it

"I disagree, because as seen through history that is false, show me for every year Muslims engaging in constant war with every nation for the last 1400 years?"

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:

You tell me, that is your claim not mine, ha ha

What a wally

all i said was

the qur'an commands ALL Muslims to fight and kill ALL non Muslims until they either convert to islam to submit and pay an extortion protection tax or are killed

this is what Islam teaches and what ALL Muslims are commanded to do

Islam is therefore a hateful warmongering ideology  



you've already used association fallacy on this thread didge

this is where you use it

"I disagree, because as seen through history that is false, show me for every year Muslims engaging in constant war with every nation for the last 1400 years?"

Yes you claim the Quran teaches this and I asked you to back this up with historical evidence, because if we are to believe you we would have evidence of constant war and fighting against all No-Muslims for 1400 years.
So how did Indonesians become Muslims for example without being conquered by an invading Muslim army?

Take your time

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:


all i said was

the qur'an commands ALL Muslims to fight and kill ALL non Muslims until they either convert to islam to submit and pay an extortion protection tax or are killed

this is what Islam teaches and what ALL Muslims are commanded to do

Islam is therefore a hateful warmongering ideology  



you've already used association fallacy on this thread didge

this is where you use it

"I disagree, because as seen through history that is false, show me for every year Muslims engaging in constant war with every nation for the last 1400 years?"

Yes you claim the Quran teaches this and I asked you to back this up with historical evidence, because if we are to believe you we would have evidence of constant war and fighting against all No-Muslims for 1400 years.
So how did Indonesians become Muslims for example without being conquered by an invading Muslim army?

Take your time

"because if we are to believe you we would have evidence of constant war and fighting against all No-Muslims for 1400 years"

why would we have such evidence??

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:


Yes you claim the Quran teaches this and I asked you to back this up with historical evidence, because if we are to believe you we would have evidence of constant war and fighting against all No-Muslims for 1400 years.
So how did Indonesians become Muslims for example without being conquered by an invading Muslim army?

Take your time

"because if we are to believe you we would have evidence of constant war and fighting against all No-Muslims for 1400 years"

why would we have such evidence??

Because you seem to think this is what it teaches, thus evidence would back your claim, it is not that difficult to understand.
You claim something, you thus back it with evidence

So how did Indonesians become Muslims for example without being conquered by an invading Muslim army?

Take your time

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:


"because if we are to believe you we would have evidence of constant war and fighting against all No-Muslims for 1400 years"

why would we have such evidence??

Because you seem to think this is what it teaches, thus evidence would back your claim, it is not that difficult to understand.
You claim something, you thus back it with evidence

i don't think that's what it teaches

it IS what it teaches

this is what you said didge

"because if we are to believe you we would have evidence of constant war and fighting against all No-Muslims for 1400 years"

why do you think this??

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:

Because you seem to think this is what it teaches, thus evidence would back your claim, it is not that difficult to understand.
You claim something, you thus back it with evidence

i don't think that's what it teaches

it IS what it teaches

this is what you said didge

"because if we are to believe you we would have evidence of constant war and fighting against all No-Muslims for 1400 years"

why do you think this??

You thus think this is what it teaches, thus you should be able to back it up showing Muslims in constant war, because if it teaches this, then all Muslim would be doing so, why is it though this is not the case?

It seems again you are unable to answer

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

i don't think that's what it teaches

it IS what it teaches

this is what you said didge

"because if we are to believe you we would have evidence of constant war and fighting against all No-Muslims for 1400 years"

why do you think this??

You thus think this is what it teaches, thus you should be able to back it up showing Muslims in constant war, because if it teaches this, then all Muslim would be doing so, why is it though this is not the case?

It seems again you are unable to answer

and there it is   knew you couldn't help yourself

"because if it teaches this, then all Muslim would be doing so"

why would ALL Muslims be do this didge??? ::D:: 

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:


You thus think this is what it teaches, thus you should be able to back it up showing Muslims in constant war, because if it teaches this, then all Muslim would be doing so, why is it though this is not the case?

It seems again you are unable to answer

and there it is   knew you couldn't help yourself

"because if it teaches this, then all Muslim would be doing so"

why would ALL Muslims be do this didge??? ::D:: 

lol so funny, I have answered, because I do not see the Quran as teaching that Muslims should attack and kill all non-Muslims as you claim

I have history to back my view, as seen you do not, so again:

So show me over 1400 years all Muslims engaged in constant war?

So how did Indonesians become Muslims for example without being conquered by an invading Muslim army?

Take your time

So easy

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

and there it is   knew you couldn't help yourself

"because if it teaches this, then all Muslim would be doing so"

why would ALL Muslims be do this didge??? ::D:: 

lol so funny, I have answered, because I do not see the Quran as teaching that Muslims should attack and kill all non-Muslims as you claim

I have history to back my view, as seen you do not, so again:

So show me over 1400 years all Muslims engaged in constant war?

So how did Indonesians become Muslims for example without being conquered by an invading Muslim army?

Take your time

So easy

why would ALL Muslims engage in war?

do you think ALL Muslims are the same??

tee hee

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:

lol so funny, I have answered, because I do not see the Quran as teaching that Muslims should attack and kill all non-Muslims as you claim

I have history to back my view, as seen you do not, so again:

So show me over 1400 years all Muslims engaged in constant war?

So how did Indonesians become Muslims for example without being conquered by an invading Muslim army?

Take your time

So easy

why would ALL Muslims engage in war?

do you think ALL Muslims are the same??

tee hee

Well let me ask you this, why do practicing Muslims pray 5 times a day?

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

why would ALL Muslims engage in war?

do you think ALL Muslims are the same??

tee hee

Well let me ask you this, why do practicing Muslims pray 5 times a day?

running away already??

it doenst matter

you have used association fallacy in your defense of Islam

you're argument is based on the belief that every single Muslim is the same, and that means that every single acts and thinks the same

you said "because if it teaches this, then all Muslim would be doing so" (your words not mine)

why would ALL Muslims be doing so??

not all Muslims are the same, therefore not all Muslims would be "doing so" as you have claimed

what that means didge, is that the qur'an DOES instruct ALL Muslims to fight and kill ALL non Muslims,but because not all Muslims are the same, it means that there will be many Muslims who do not adhere to this command

which answers your question

your belief is that because not all Muslims are doing this, it means this is not what is being taught by islam

in this belief you are taking away every Muslims individual identity and reducing them all to a single hive mind that is controlled by the qur'an and the logic you then apply is : because this hive mind isn't acting in the precise manner (XYZ) dictated by the qur'an then it means that the qur'an does not dictate XYZ

your belief is an amalgamation of mass generalization and complete ignorance in regards to what a ideology is, more interestingly you superimpose the qualities of an ideology onto people and visa versa

to the point where you believe that people are incapable of thinking for themselves or changing, and ideologies are intelligent beings that can evolve depending upon how many people adhere to its teachings

i do have to say that it is rather interesting to see how you corrupt reality to make it fit your warped mindset

That did not answer my question, so try again

Why do practicing Muslims pray 5 times a day?

take your time

Hee Hee smelly caught in a trap

because they are fcuing idiots like you!! he he he,

Didge wrote:That did not answer my question, so try again

Why do practicing Muslims pray 5 times a day?

take your time

Hee Hee

why do Muslims prey five times a day??

its actually an interesting story didge

it would have been 50 times a day

you should read up on it sometime

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:That did not answer my question, so try again

Why do practicing Muslims pray 5 times a day?

take your time

Hee Hee

why do Muslims prey five times a day??

its actually an interesting story didge

it would have been 50 times a day

you should read up on it sometime

Still not answering my question, terrible habbit of yours

So why do practicing Muslims pray 5 times a day?


Oh dear someone is caught in a trap and they know it ha ha

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

why do Muslims prey five times a day??

its actually an interesting story didge

it would have been 50 times a day

you should read up on it sometime

Still not answering my question, terrible habbit of yours

So why do practicing Muslims pray 5 times a day?


Oh dear someone is caught in a trap and they know it ha ha

there is no need to answer your question didge since it is irrelevant

preying 5 times a day is what Muslim believe is one of the 5 doctrinal pillars of their Ismail faith

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:



Still not answering my question, terrible habbit of yours

So why do practicing Muslims pray 5 times a day?


Oh dear someone is caught in a trap and they know it ha ha

there is no need to answer your question didge since it is irrelevant

preying 5 times a day is what Muslim believe is one of the 5 doctrinal pillars of their Ismail faith

My question is very relevant and you know it.

So you say praying is one of the 5 doctrinal pillars of their Islamic faith which is why practicing Muslims pray 5 times a day, then why is not killing or subjugating Non-Muslims then?

Whoops

You see you walk into traps all the time, as seen the vast majority of Muslims do not view they should kill or subjugate Non_Muslims, which is more to the point and thus clearly is not a part of Islam, otherwise the vast majority practicing Muslims would be killing an subjugating all Non-Muslims.
You see I am not claiming all Muslims are the same through association, that is you as seen, what I am showing is your views are very flawed

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

there is no need to answer your question didge since it is irrelevant

preying 5 times a day is what Muslim believe is one of the 5 doctrinal pillars of their Ismail faith

My question is very relevant and you know it.

So you say praying  is one of the 5 doctrinal pillars of their Islamic faith which is why practicing Muslims pray 5 times a day, then why is not killing or subjugating Non-Muslims then?  

Whoops

You see you walk into traps all the time, as seen the vast majority of Muslims do not view they should kill or subjugate Non_Muslims, which is more to the point and thus clearly is not a part of Islam, otherwise the vast majority practicing Muslims would be killing an subjugating all Non-Muslims.
You see I am not claiming all Muslims are the same through association, that is you as seen, what I am showing is your views are very flawed

actually the qur'an only stipulates that 3 prayers per day is what is required, the additional two were built into the theology by Islamic theologians who used the story recorded in the hadiths about Muhammad ascension to the seven heavens

anyway back to your point

which essentially relies on the NUMBER of Muslims adhering to a certain obligation before you accept that obligation is part of Islam

praying

you are happy to concede that praying is part of Islam because the vast majority of Muslim prey 5 times a day

so on the flip side of that, you say that because the vast majority of Muslims don't actively engage in killing and persecution, it means that killing and persecuting isn't part of Islam

is that the same for Christianity then??

your view is that only the religious obligations adhered to be the vast majority exist as part of the religion

so if the vast majority of Christians dont adhere to the ten commandments your argument would be that the ten commandment is not part of Christianity

you're just a fuckwit are you??

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:


My question is very relevant and you know it.

So you say praying  is one of the 5 doctrinal pillars of their Islamic faith which is why practicing Muslims pray 5 times a day, then why is not killing or subjugating Non-Muslims then?  

Whoops

You see you walk into traps all the time, as seen the vast majority of Muslims do not view they should kill or subjugate Non_Muslims, which is more to the point and thus clearly is not a part of Islam, otherwise the vast majority practicing Muslims would be killing an subjugating all Non-Muslims.
You see I am not claiming all Muslims are the same through association, that is you as seen, what I am showing is your views are very flawed

actually the qur'an only stipulates that 3 prayers per day is what is required, the additional two were built into the theology by Islamic theologians who used the story recorded in the hadiths about Muhammad ascension to the seven heavens  
Tomatoes tomato argument

anyway back to your point
which essentially relies on the NUMBER of Muslims adhering to a certain obligation before you accept that obligation is part of Islam
praying
you are happy to concede that praying is part of Islam because the vast majority of Muslim prey 5 times a day      
so on the flip side of that, you say that because the vast majority of Muslims don't actively engage in killing and persecution, it means that killing and persecuting isn't part of Islam
is that the same for Christianity then??
your view is that only the religious obligations adhered to be the vast majority exist as part of the religion
so if the vast majority of Christians dont adhere to the ten commandments your argument would be that the ten commandment is not part of Christianity
you're just a fuckwit are you??

But the vast majority of practicing Christians do adhere to the ten commandments

The vast majority of practicing Christians are baptized are they not?

Thanks for proving my point, ha ha

So easy it is getting embarrassing again for you smelly

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

actually the qur'an only stipulates that 3 prayers per day is what is required, the additional two were built into the theology by Islamic theologians who used the story recorded in the hadiths about Muhammad ascension to the seven heavens  
Tomatoes tomato argument

anyway back to your point
which essentially relies on the NUMBER of Muslims adhering to a certain obligation before you accept that obligation is part of Islam
praying
you are happy to concede that praying is part of Islam because the vast majority of Muslim prey 5 times a day      
so on the flip side of that, you say that because the vast majority of Muslims don't actively engage in killing and persecution, it means that killing and persecuting isn't part of Islam
is that the same for Christianity then??
your view is that only the religious obligations adhered to be the vast majority exist as part of the religion
so if the vast majority of Christians dont adhere to the ten commandments your argument would be that the ten commandment is not part of Christianity
you're just a fuckwit are you??

But the vast majority of practicing Christians do adhere to the ten commandments

The vast majority of practicing Christians are baptized are they not?

Thanks for proving my point, ha ha  

So easy it is getting embarrassing again for you smelly

this is very good

tell me didge

is killing homosexuals taught in Christianity???

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:


But the vast majority of practicing Christians do adhere to the ten commandments
The vast majority of practicing Christians are baptized are they not?

Thanks for proving my point, ha ha  

So easy it is getting embarrassing again for you smelly

this is very good

tell me didge

is killing homosexuals taught in Christianity???

Nope, executing people who commit a homosexual act is.


Oh dear someone who claims to be a Christian has not even read the bible

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

this is very good

tell me didge

is killing homosexuals taught in Christianity???

Nope, executing people who commit a homosexual act is.


Oh dear someone who claims to be a Christian has not even read the bible

do the vast majority of Christians in the world execute people who commit homosexual acts??

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:


Nope, executing people who commit a homosexual act is.


Oh dear someone who claims to be a Christian has not even read the bible

do the vast majority of Christians in the world execute people who commit homosexual acts??

The vast majority of Christians are not allowed to execute homosexuals, because equal rights champion religious rights, when religious rights did champion over equal rights homosexuals were executed in Christian lands?

Wanna have a bet on this?

So easy for me

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

do the vast majority of Christians in the world execute people who commit homosexual acts??

The vast majority of Christians are not allowed to execute homosexuals, because equal rights champion religious rights, when religious rights did champion over equal rights homosexuals were executed in Christian lands?

Wanna have a bet on this?

So easy for me

so the vast majority of Christians do not execute people for committing homosexual acts

so here we see your double standards in action

when it comes to islam your view is that only commands followed by the vast majority of Muslims are taught in Islam

when it comes to Christianity, your view is that it doesn't matter that the vast majority of Christian don't execute people for homosexual acts,you still claim that executing for homosexual acts is taught in Christianity

there you go didge, a perfect example of how you twist things to suit you

perfect

you said

"No as seen in many Muslim countries religious rights supersede equality rights, hence why some of these nations still execute people for homosexuality"

so what you're saying is that the killing of gays is taught in Islam because the vast majority of Muslims engage in it

remember what you said didge "religious rights supersede equality rights"

let me know when you have had enough

smelly_bandit wrote:perfect

you said

"No as seen in many Muslim countries religious rights supersede equality rights, hence why some of these nations still execute people for homosexuality"

so what you're saying is that the killing of gays is taught in Islam because the vast majority of Muslims engage in it

remember what you said didge "religious rights supersede equality rights"

let me know when you have had enough

Really that is news to me, you stated

so what you're saying is that the killing of gays is taught in Islam because the vast majority of Muslims engage in it


I stated that in the Abrahamic faiths it is taught to execute homosexuals for acting out homosexual acts, when nations have religious views over equal views they carry out this religious act as seen throughout history.

I am loving this actually, your last point proves to me you know you have lost

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:perfect

you said

"No as seen in many Muslim countries religious rights supersede equality rights, hence why some of these nations still execute people for homosexuality"

so what you're saying is that the killing of gays is taught in Islam because the vast majority of Muslims engage in it

remember what you said didge "religious rights supersede equality rights"

let me know when you have had enough

Really that is news to me, you stated

so what you're saying is that the killing of gays is taught in Islam because the vast majority of Muslims engage in it


I stated that in the Abrahamic faiths it is taught to execute homosexuals for acting out homosexual acts, when nations have religious views over equal views they carry out this religious act as seen throughout history.

I am loving this actually, your last point proves to me you know you have lost

its just using your logic didge

you say that unless a majority of Muslims do something it means its not taught in Islam

well gays are executed in the majority of Muslim countries, which means that execution of homosexuals must be taught in Islam

correct??

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:


Really that is news to me, you stated

so what you're saying is that the killing of gays is taught in Islam because the vast majority of Muslims engage in it


I stated that in the Abrahamic faiths it is taught to execute homosexuals for acting out homosexual acts, when nations have religious views over equal views they carry out this religious act as seen throughout history.

I am loving this actually, your last point proves to me you know you have lost

its just using your logic didge

you say that unless a majority of Muslims do something it means its not taught in Islam

well gays are executed in the majority of Muslim countries, which means that execution of homosexuals must be taught in Islam

correct??

Hilarious, in all 3 Abrahamic faiths it teaches to punish homosexual acts with execution, are you denying this was not the case in Christian countries when religious view superseded equal rights?

Take your time

you're waffling again didge

you're argument was that Islam doesn't teach killing and persecution of non Muslims because the vast majority of Muslims do not do this

remember you said this??

"as seen the vast majority of Muslims do not view they should kill or subjugate Non_Muslims, which is more to the point and thus clearly is not a part of Islam,

then we apply your own logic to Christianity

and we see that , by your own admission that the vast majority of Christians don't execute homosexuals it must mean by your own logic that execution of homosexuals is not part of Christianity

but then you defy your own logic and claim that execution of homosexual is part of Christianity even though the vast majority don't do it

do you even know what you're on about

smelly_bandit wrote:you're waffling again didge

you're argument was that Islam doesn't teach killing and persecution of non Muslims because the vast majority of Muslims do not do this

remember you said this??

"as seen the vast majority of Muslims do not view they should kill or subjugate Non_Muslims, which is more to the point and thus clearly is not a part of Islam,

then we apply your own logic to Christianity

and we see that , by your own admission that the vast majority of Christians don't execute homosexuals it must mean by your own logic that execution of homosexuals is not part of Christianity

but then you defy your own logic and claim that execution of homosexual is part of Christianity even though the vast majority don't do it

do you even know what you're on about

Oh dear smelly fails to answer again, so lets ask again:

In all 3 Abrahamic faiths it teaches to punish homosexual acts with execution, are you denying this was not the case in Christian countries when religious view superseded equal rights?

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:you're waffling again didge

you're argument was that Islam doesn't teach killing and persecution of non Muslims because the vast majority of Muslims do not do this

remember you said this??

"as seen the vast majority of Muslims do not view they should kill or subjugate Non_Muslims, which is more to the point and thus clearly is not a part of Islam,

then we apply your own logic to Christianity

and we see that , by your own admission that the vast majority of Christians don't execute homosexuals it must mean by your own logic that execution of homosexuals is not part of Christianity

but then you defy your own logic and claim that execution of homosexual is part of Christianity even though the vast majority don't do it

do you even know what you're on about

Oh dear smelly fails to answer again, so lets ask again:

In all 3 Abrahamic faiths it teaches to punish homosexual acts with execution, are you denying this was not the case in Christian countries when religious view superseded equal rights?

no didge i don't deny it at all

in fact i loudly embrace it and agree with it

because what it means is that even though it is no longer widely practiced you still argue that it is taught in Christianity

which means that killing and persecution of non Muslims is taught in Islam even though according to you not all Muslims do it

correct

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:


Oh dear smelly fails to answer again, so lets ask again:

In all 3 Abrahamic faiths it teaches to punish homosexual acts with execution, are you denying this was not the case in Christian countries when religious view superseded equal rights?

no didge i don't deny it at all

in fact i loudly embrace it and agree with it

because what it means is that even though it is no longer widely practiced you still argue that it is taught in Christianity

which means that killing and persecution of non Muslims is taught in Islam even though according to you not all Muslims do it

correct  

An answer at last, so we see a continuation of what practicing religious people can do and what they cannot do according to laws of a nation.

The teachings of Islam as seen on another thread show it is not taught to persecute and kill Muslims, that is your belief, Muslims many of them disagree with you.
So again if practicing Muslims believed this was part of their faith, many would be engaging in this act and it would be endorsed by Govenrment policies, which as seen is not the case either, only extremists hold this view, just like you do.

So again you back my view points very well

Thaks

Didge wrote:

smelly_bandit wrote:

no didge i don't deny it at all

in fact i loudly embrace it and agree with it

because what it means is that even though it is no longer widely practiced you still argue that it is taught in Christianity

which means that killing and persecution of non Muslims is taught in Islam even though according to you not all Muslims do it

correct  

An answer at last, so we see a continuation of what practicing religious people can do and what they cannot do according to laws of a nation.

The teachings of Islam as seen on another thread show it is not taught to persecute and kill Muslims, that is your belief, Muslims many of them disagree with you.
So again if practicing Muslims believed this was part of their faith, many would be engaging in this act and it would be endorsed by Govenrment policies, which as seen is not the case either, only extremists hold this view, just like you do.

So again you back my view points very well

Thaks

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful. And fight them until there is no more Fitnah

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."



Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'



Abu Dawud (14:2527) - The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious



Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah



Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'. And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally."



Muslim (1:30) - "The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."



Muslim (19:4294) - "When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him... He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war... When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them."

Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 484: - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

yep nothing in Islam that talks about killing non Muslims

this is the part where didge posts loads of biblical verse about killing

smelly_bandit wrote:

Didge wrote:

An answer at last, so we see a continuation of what practicing religious people can do and what they cannot do according to laws of a nation.

The teachings of Islam as seen on another thread show it is not taught to persecute and kill Muslims, that is your belief, Muslims many of them disagree with you.
So again if practicing Muslims believed this was part of their faith, many would be engaging in this act and it would be endorsed by Govenrment policies, which as seen is not the case either, only extremists hold this view, just like you do.

So again you back my view points very well

Thaks

Quran (2:191-193) - "And kill them wherever you find them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out. And Al-Fitnah [disbelief] is worse than killing...

but if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving and merciful.   And fight them until there is no more Fitnah

Quran (2:244) - "Then fight in the cause of Allah, and know that Allah Heareth and knoweth all things."

Quran (2:216) - "Fighting is prescribed for you, and ye dislike it. But it is possible that ye dislike a thing which is good for you, and that ye love a thing which is bad for you. But Allah knoweth, and ye know not."

Quran (3:151) - "Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority".  

Quran (4:89) - "They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks."

Quran (5:33) - "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"

Quran (8:12) - "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them"  

Quran (9:29) - "Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."



Bukhari (52:220) - Allah's Apostle said... 'I have been made victorious with terror'



Abu Dawud (14:2527) - The Prophet said: Striving in the path of Allah (jihad) is incumbent on you along with every ruler, whether he is pious or impious



Muslim (1:33) - the Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify that there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the messenger of Allah



Bukhari (8:387) - Allah's Apostle said, "I have been ordered to fight the people till they say: 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'.  And if they say so, pray like our prayers, face our Qibla and slaughter as we slaughter, then their blood and property will be sacred to us and we will not interfere with them except legally."



Muslim (1:30) - "The Messenger of Allah said: I have been commanded to fight against people so long as they do not declare that there is no god but Allah."



Muslim (19:4294) - "When the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) appointed anyone as leader of an army or detachment he would especially exhort him... He would say: Fight in the name of Allah and in the way of Allah. Fight against those who disbelieve in Allah. Make a holy war...  When you meet your enemies who are polytheists, invite them to three courses of action. If they respond to any one of these, you also accept it and withhold yourself from doing them any harm. Invite them to (accept) Islam; if they respond to you, accept it from them and desist from fighting against them... If they refuse to accept Islam, demand from them the Jizya. If they agree to pay, accept it from them and hold off your hands. If they refuse to pay the tax, seek Allah's help and fight them."

Ibn Ishaq/Hisham 484: - “Allah said, ‘A prophet must slaughter before collecting captives. A slaughtered enemy is driven from the land. Muhammad, you craved the desires of this world, its goods and the ransom captives would bring. But Allah desires killing them to manifest the religion.’”

yep nothing in Islam that talks about killing non Muslims

Misquoted “Violent Verses” in the Holy Quran
October 16, 2008 — Nora's Sensation
It is amazing to see how many non-Muslims would blindly post the verses from Quran, without even reading from ‘appropriate’ and well-know translations. Needless to say they hardly ever know the context. In this article we will be examining commonly quoted verses on the topic of violence and refuting them. This article is divided in 2 parts:
1) Refuting commonly quoted verses on the topic of violence
2) Providing accurate picture of Islam

1)Refuting commonly quoted verses on the topic of violence

Quran 9:5
Islam-critics only post 9:5:
“Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.” (PICKTHAL Translation, Quran 9:5)

Let’s read the verse in context 9:1-9:5:
Freedom from obligation (is proclaimed) from Allah and His messenger toward those of the idolaters with whom ye made a treaty. Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance). And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve, Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him). Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful. (PICKTHAL Translation, Quran 9:1-5)

This verses is always quoted out of context, they never post 9:6 or from 9:1 to 9:6. If we read from start it states that there was a treaty, which the Pagans of Arab broke. Thus Allah gave them 4 months as 9:2 states in order to amend the treaty. Verse 9:4 states that the punishment prescribed in 9:5 is ONLY to those who broke the treaty and NOT to those who abided by the treaty. Therefore the context of 9:5 is of war with the pagan Arabs who broke the treaty yet refused to amend it in 4 months.

Naturally, in war violence is expected. If a war is declared between Country A and Country B, because country B broke the treaty and refused to amend, then if president of country A states “wherever you find soldiers of Country B, you kill them and besiege them”, no one would truly find much wrong in that statement.

Killing in war is nothing peculiar, and there is yet to be a war where soldiers hugged and kissed each other. In additions, Dr. Zakir Naik writes in his book “Replies to the most common questions asked by non-Muslims“:

“4. Verse 9:5 quoted to boost morale of Muslims during battle
Similarly in Surah Taubah chapter 9 verse 5 the Qur’an says, “Kill the Mushriqs [pagans] where ever you find them”, during a battle to boost the morale of the Muslim soldiers. What the Qur’an is telling Muslim soldiers is, don’t be afraid during battle; wherever you find the enemies kill them.”

Islam-critics remain shy of posting the next verse, 9:6, as it contains the answer to their deception:

“And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not. (PICKTHAL Translation, Quran 9:6)

Quran does not only say that you release those who seek protection but it goes even further and states to protect them! In the present international scenario, even a kind, peace-loving army General, during a battle, may let the enemy soldiers go free, if they want peace. But which army General will ever tell his soldiers, that if the enemy soldiers want peace during a battle, don’t just let them go free, but also escort them to a place of security?

Hence even in war Quran promotes peace.

Quran 2:191
Islam-critics usually apply “cut and choose” approach with regards to this verse. They only quote: “And slay them wherever ye catch them…” (2:191). However, let us be brave enough to read the whole passage in context from 2:190-195:

Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loves not transgressors. And kill them wherever ye catch them, and turn them out from where they have turned you out; for persecution and oppression are worse than slaughter; but fight them not at the Sacred Mosque, unless they (first) fight you there; but if they fight you, kill them. Such is the reward of those who reject faith. But if they cease, God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God; but if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression. The prohibited month, for the prohibited month, and so for all things prohibited, there is the law of equality. If then any one transgresses the prohibition against you, transgress ye likewise against him. But fear (the punishment of) God, and know that God is with those who restrain themselves. And spend of your substance in the cause of Allah, and make not your own hands contribute to (your) destruction; but do good; for Allah loveth those who do good. (YUSUF ALI, Quran 2:190-195)

The verse clearly states to fight those who fight you, yet do not transgress limits. In so sense therefore does it promote killing of innocent but allows self-defence. It further goes on to state “And fight them on until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice” and “if they cease, let there be no hostility except to those who practice oppression”. Hence, once again when the whole context is examined the verses does not promote killing of innocent in anyway.

Abdul Majid Daryabadi (Finlay, Greece Under the Romans, pp. 367-368) writes on verse 2:190:
“…Violating the truce they themselves had signed. The Muslims, after having borne untold persecution with almost superhuman fortitude for years and years at the hands of the pagans of Makkah, are now for the first time enjoined to take to reprisals. ‘For a full thirteen years the Muslims were subjected to relentless persecution in Mecca. The Prophet and his followers fled for life to Medina, but the enemy would not leave them alone in their refuge. They came to attack them within a year, and the first three battles were fought in the very locality which will whether the Prophet was an assailant or defendant’ (Headley, The Original Church of Jesus Christ and Islam, p. 155). The Makkans had signed a truce and were the first to break it…”

Once again when the whole context is examined the verses does not promote killing of innocents, whether Muslims or non-Muslims in anyway, but only self-defence.

Quran 4:89
Verse says:
But if they turn away, catch them and slaughter them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks.” (4:89)

Once again the context is ignored, they don’t quote previous and next verses.

They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;- Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them). Others you will find that wish to gain your confidence as well as that of their people: Every time they are sent back to temptation, they succumb thereto: if they withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands, seize them and slay them wherever ye get them: In their case We have provided you with a clear argument against them. (YUSUF ALI Translation, Quran 4:89-91)

When we read it in context, verse 4:89 is NOT to those “who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people.” This verse is only referring to those “withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands”.

Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi says with regards to this verse:

“Now tell me honestly, do these verses give a free permission to kill any one anywhere? These verses were revealed by God to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him), at the time when Muslims were attacked by the non-Muslims of Makkah on a regular basis. They were frightening the Muslim community of Madinah. One may say using the contemporary jargon that there were constant terrorist attacks on Madinah and in this situation Muslims were given permission to fight back the “terrorist”. These verses are not a permission for “terrorism” but they are a warning against the “terrorists.” But even in these warnings you can see how much restraint and care is emphasized.”

Therefore, it is clear that the verse only allows self-defence against those who “withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands”. Naturally, it would be necessary for the enemies to withdraw and make peace in order to achieve peace. Verse is not referring to “those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people”.

In “…withdraw not from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace besides restraining their hands”, it is obviously necessary to give guarantees of peace or form a treaty in addition to stop fighting. Otherwise, anyone can pretend to be “restraining their hands” when they are weak, and when they are strong again they come back and attack again. Thus to make it official Quran says to give you (guarantees) of peace, and not act as two-faced.

Quran 4:95
We have already discussed 4:89, now lets look at 4:95. Common translation amongst the critics of this verse (poorly translated) is:

Qur’an 4:95 Not equal are those believers who sit at home and receive no injurious hurt, and those who strive hard, fighting Jihad in God’s Cause with their wealth and lives. God has granted a rank higher to those who strive hard, fighting Jihad with their wealth and bodies to those who sit (at home). Unto each has God promised good, but He prefers Jihadists who strive hard and fight above those who sit home. He has distinguished his fighters with a huge reward.

Now let’s examine this verse in the light of another common translation:

O ye who believe! When ye go forth (to fight) in the way of Allah, be careful to discriminate, and say not unto one who offereth you peace: “Thou art not a believer,” seeking the chance profits of this life (so that ye may despoil him). With Allah are plenteous spoils. Even thus (as he now is) were ye before; but Allah hath since then been gracious unto you. Therefore take care to discriminate. Allah is ever Informed of what ye do. Those of the believers who sit still, other than those who have a (disabling) hurt, are not on an equality with those who strive in the way of Allah with their wealth and lives. Allah hath conferred on those who strive with their wealth and lives a rank above the sedentary. Unto each Allah hath promised good, but He hath bestowed on those who strive a great reward above the sedentary; (PICKTHAL Translation, Quran 4:94-95)

The verse is stating those who strive in the path of God with lives and wealth are not equal to those who do not, which is logical. Accurate translations make no mention of “Jihadists” and killing as poor translations indicate. Once again, critics take advantage of inaccurate translations. Also 4:94 prevents killing of innocents as it says “…be careful to discriminate, and say not unto one who offereth you peace: “Thou art not a believer,” seeking the chance profits of this life…”

Quran 47:4
If read with good translation and historical context in mind, no significant complaint can be found about 47:4. However, some non-Muslims insist on using a very poor translation of Quran with additions. One such translation reads:

Qur’an 47:4 So, when you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle, smite their necks until you overpower them, killing and wounding many of them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, bind them firmly, making (them) captives. Thereafter either generosity or ransom until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded by God to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam .

However, almost all of the major translations are contrary to the above translation. Yusuf Ali’s translation reads:

Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them): thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah’s Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost. (Yusuf Ali Translation, Quran 47:4)

Further translations can be checked out here. Nowhere does the accurate translations make any mention of 1)”killing and wounding” 2) “Thus are you commanded by God to continue carrying out Jihad against the unbelieving infidels until they submit to Islam”, those are additions of the translator’s and are not to be found in Quran.

According to Professor Shahul Hameed (http://www.islamonline.net/askaboutislam/display.asp?hquestionID=8922), historical context of this verse is Battle of Badr. He writes:

“The context of this verse was when the Muslims were to fight their enemies for their very existence. After thirteen years of endurance and patience, the prophet and his companions had to leave their home town of Makkah and to emigrate to Madinah. When the people of Madinah had welcomed him there and he was accepted as a leader there, the Makkans became unhappy. They wanted to eliminate Muhammad and his religion; and so they sent their army to root out Islam. And the crucial battle took place in Badr.”

Once again, the context is of war here and therefore killing of innocent people is not prescribed. Naturally, in war people would be expected to fight and kill, therefore “smite at their necks” is only natural.

Quran 33:23
Another poor translation of this verse commonly seen reads:
Qur’an 33:23 Among the Believers are men who have been true to their covenant with God and have gone out for Jihad (holy fighting ). Some have completed their vow to extreme and have been martyred fighting and dying in His Cause, and some are waiting, prepared for death in battle.

More accurate and common translation reads:
Among the Believers are men who have been true to their covenant with Allah: of them some have completed their vow (to the extreme), and some (still) wait: but they have never changed (their determination) in the least: (YUSUF ALI Translation, Quran 33.23)

Critics have included “fighting and dying”, “prepared for death in battle” and their own interpretation to the verse. Ibn Kathir writes:

“When Allah mentions how the hypocrites broke their promise to Him that they would not turn their backs, He describes the believers as firmly adhering to their covenant and their promise:
([they] have been true to their covenant with Allah; of them some have fulfilled their Nahbah;) Some of [the Qur’anic commentators] said: “Met their appointed time (i.e., death).” Al-Bukhari said, “Their covenant, and refers back to the beginning of the Ayah.
(and some of them are still waiting, but they have never changed in the least.) means, they have never changed or broken their covenant with Allah. (Tafsir Ibn Kathir)”

It is clear, when read in proper translation, that the verse does not promote killing of innocents at all.

Quran 2:217-218
Verse states:
They ask thee concerning fighting in the Prohibited Month. Say: “Fighting therein is a grave (offence); but graver is it in the sight of Allah to prevent access to the path of Allah, to deny Him, to prevent access to the Sacred Mosque, and drive out its members.” Tumult and oppression are worse than slaughter. Nor will they cease fighting you until they turn you back from your faith if they can. And if any of you Turn back from their faith and die in unbelief, their works will bear no fruit in this life and in the Hereafter; they will be companions of the Fire and will abide therein. Those who believed and those who suffered exile and fought (and strove and struggled) in the path of Allah,- they have the hope of the Mercy of Allah: And Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (YUSUF ALI Translation, Quran 2:217-218)

The context of these verses refers to an expedition of a group of the companions of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), under the lead of Abdullah bin Jahsh Asadi. The companions recognized a caravan from the Quraysh. Since the Quraysh had openly declared war on the Muslims and had persecuted them to the extent that they drove them out of their homes, and stole their property, the companions present, felt that they could retaliate. They killed one man of from the caravan, and took two as prisoners. When they returned to Madinah, the Prophet Muhammad disapproved of their attack during the Holy Month. But God revealed this verse as a reminder to the Muslims that while killing in the Holy Month was bad, persecution and expelling people from their homes because of their faith is far worse. So the verses make it very clear that in the face of the terrorist attacks of the polytheists, the Muslims should be brave and steadfast and turn to God for help rather than giving in and leaving the truth.

Shaykh Safiur Rahman Al-Mubarakpuri (Al-Mubarakpuri, Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum; Riyadh-Saudi Arabia, Dar-us-Salam Publications, 1996; pp. 205-206)writes on verse 2:217:

The Words of Allah were quite clear and said that the tumult created by the polytheists was groundless. The sacred inviolable sanctities repeatedly violated in the long process of fighting Islam and persecuting its adherents. The wealth of the Muslims as well as their homes had already been violated and their Prophet s.a.w.s. had been the target of repeated attempts on his life…Shortly afterwards, the two captives were released and blood money (compensation) was given to the killed man’s father. (fn. For details see Zad Al-Ma’ad, 2/83-85; Ibn Hisham, 1/605; Rahmat-ul-lil’alameen, 1/115. 2/468.) (Al-Mubarakpuri, Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum; Riyadh-Saudi Arabia, Dar-us-Salam Publications, 1996; pp. 205-206, emphasis added)

Quran 2:244
2:244 Fight in God’s Cause, and know that God hears and knows all. (PICKTHAL Translation, Quran 2:244)

Verse 2:244 is informing us not to transgress limits and Allah “hears and knows all”, also fight in God’s cause which could be in reference to several things including liberation of the oppressed, meaning the helpless men and women who are yearning and praying for freedom as well as striving for all that which is good as well as doing Dawah in an appropriate manner. This does NOT refer to fighting and killing innocents. As Quran says:

Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. (PICKTHAL Translation, Quran 2:190)

Quran 4:76
Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! the devil’s strategy is ever weak. (PICKTHAL Translation, Quran 4:76)

Now, let’s read the verse in textual context:
Let those fight in the way of Allah who sell the life of this world for the other. Whoso fighteth in the way of Allah, be he slain or be he victorious, on him We shall bestow a vast reward. How should ye not fight for the cause of Allah and (for the cause) of the feeble among men and of the women and the children who are crying: Our Lord! Bring us forth from out this town of which the people are oppressors! Oh, give us from thy presence some protecting friend! Oh, give us from Thy presence some defender! Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who disbelieve do battle for the cause of idols. So fight the minions of the devil. Lo! the devil’s strategy is ever weak. (PICKTHAL Translation, Quran 4:74-76)

Verse 4:76 is specific to those who have been oppressed. In order to help those who cannot help themselves is indeed a great deed and to shun away tyranny and help those who are weak and oppressed. Islam-critics seek to present a view of violence and hate on behalf of Quran, however, when the verse is examined carefully in a correct context, their deceit is clearly exposed.

Dr. Maher Hathout (Hathout, Jihad vs. Terrorism; US Multimedia Vera International, 2002, p.50) comments on verse 4:76 by saying:
This verse is related to the two preceding verses (see 4:74-75) where it was stated that those who fight for God’s cause would be rewarded whether they are victorious or slain. Fighting for God’s cause includes the liberation of the oppressed, meaning the helpless men and women who are yearning and praying for freedom. The believers fight for God’s cause, and the disbelievers fight for the sake of their idols. An idol may be taken conceptually. For example, evil or greed may figuratively be construed as idols. The believers should put all their trust in God the Almighty and Powerful and fear not the disbelievers and their evil plans. Evil plans are always inferior to goodness. (Hathout, Jihad vs. Terrorism; US Multimedia Vera International, 2002, p.50)

Quran 5:33
Verse states:
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter (YUSUF ALI Translation, Quran 5:33)

The verses before and after 5:33 are not usually quoted, as 5:32 prohibits murder and 5:34 encourages forgiveness.

On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person – unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land – it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter; Except for those who repent before they fall into your power: in that case, know that Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. (YUSUF ALI Translation, Quran 5:32-34)

The verse mentions “The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land ” is either execution, OR crucifixion, OR the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, OR exile from the land. This is the punishment for waging war against the Prophet of God and spreading corruption. Four kinds of punishment are mentioned based upon the gravity of the crime. As Muhammad F. Malik writes in his translation of this verse:

The punishment for those who wage war against Allah and His Rasool and strive to create mischief in the land is death or crucifixion or the cutting off their hands and feet from opposite sides or exile from the land (based on the gravity of their offence)… (Malik, Al-Qur’an: Guidance for Mankind)

Therefore stealing may not result in execution but cutting of hand. Similarly, killing an innocent person may not result in exile from the land but execution. Verses 5:32 and 5:34 must also be taken in consideration, which condemns killing of innocent and takes into account repentance.

Quran 9:29
Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued. (YUSUF ALI Translation, Quran 9:29)

This verse is referring to the Islamic Concept called “Jizya”, which Shaikh Sayed Sabiq in the Fiqh Alsunna (a commonly used source of fiqh[rulings (Fatwa) of Muslim Islamic jurists]), describes as “the underlying root of the word jizya is jaza, and defines it as “A sum of money to be put on anyone who enters the themah (protection and the treaty of the Muslims) from the people of the book“.

It is usually portrayed by certain critics that jizya is a mechanism for discriminating non-Muslims in an Islamic-society. This is a common misconception; jizya is a political method dealing with finance.

One of the main pillars of Islam is called Zakat (Muslims whose wealth is above a certain limit must pay a percentage of it (in most cases 2.5%) to the poor and needy). Islam does not “force” upon non-Muslims to follow one of it’s main pillar. This certainly quietens some critics who would otherwise be accusing Islam of imposing itself on them. Just like in a non-Muslim society Muslims pay tax, likewise non-Muslims are obliged to pay certain percentage of their money to the Islamic State. It is quite hypocritical of non-Muslims to criticize Jizya, whilst, in non-Muslims countries Muslims have to pay tax. If tax is justified then so should jizya be.

Regarding the amount of jizya Shaykh Abu’l-Hasan Al-Mawardi (d. 1058CE) writes in his book Al-Mawardi, al-Ahkam as-Sultaniyyah, Ta-Ha Publishers Ltd. 1996, pp. 209-210:

“The fuqaha (Jurists) differ as to the amount of the Jizya. Abu Hanifa considers that those subject to this tax are of three kinds: the rich from whom forty-eight dirhams are taken; those of average means from whom twenty four are taken, and the poor from whom twelve dirhams are taken: he thus stipulated the minimum and maximum amounts and prohibits any further judgement on behalf of those responsible for its collection. Malik, however, does not fix its minimum and maximum amount and considers that those responsible should make their own judgement as to the minimum and maximum. Ash-Shafi’i considers that the minimum is a dinar, and that it is not permitted to go below this while he does not stipulate the maximum, the latter being dependant on the ijtihad (judgement) of those responsible: the Imam, however, should try to harmonise between the different amounts, or to exact an amount in accordance with people’s means.”

In conclusion, this verse refers to a non-Muslim who doesn’t pay poll-tax in Islamic State and thus does not contribute to the financial needs of the territory. It is generally agreed by the four major Jurists that jizya money is based upon one’s income. We ought also not forget that Muslims are also obliged to pay Zakat.

Some critics try to pose the conception that the verse ought to be translated as “Kill those who believe…” instead of “Fight those who believe…” They claim since the verse uses the arabic word Qateloo, which comes from the root word Qaatil. However, there is derivitive field in arabic, when prefix and suffix are added, it determines the defination of verse in context. If it meant to say kill, verse would have said uqtulo or Uqtul.

According to the Ectaco English-Arabic Online Dictionary, in arabic words for “Fight” are:

N مقاومة, شجار, مباراة في المِكمة, صراع, وغى, عراك, مناوشة, كفاح, نضال, مِكمة,
V حارب, قاتل, تقاتل, تبارز, كافح, ناضل, ِكم, خاض معركة, قاوم [Source ]
Note: As the dictionary testifies one of the word for Fight is Qaatil (in a verb). Furthermore, in english, word Qaatil is translated thus:
A DEADLY, LETHAL, VITAL, MURDERED, MURDEROUS,
N KILLER, MANSLAYER, MURDERER, ASSASSIN,
V BATTLE, COMBAT, ENGAGE, FIGHT, WAR [ Source ]

So Fight indeed is a correct translation, in a context of a VERB. Also the jizya is only upon livings, dead people cannot pay money. Therefore “kill until they pay jizya” would also have logical contradictions, as killing would cause jizya to be abolished.

Quran 8:12-13 and 8:17
Anti-Islam websites quote this verse as:
“I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers. Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips off them. This because they contend against God and his apostle…”

Let’s read verses from 8:12-16:

When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger. That is because they opposed Allah and His messenger. Whoso opposeth Allah and His messenger, (for him) lo! Allah is severe in punishment. That (is the award), so taste it, and (know) that for disbelievers is the torment of the Fire. O ye who believe! When ye meet those who disbelieve in battle, turn not your backs to them. Whoso on that day turneth his back to them, unless manoeuvring for battle or intent to join a company, he truly hath incurred wrath from Allah, and his habitation will be hell, a hapless journey’s end. (PICKTHAL Translation, Quran 8:12-16)

Hence when read in its textual context the verse is referring to smiting in the time of BATTLE. Now let’s read 8:17 which is presented in absence of 8:14-16:

Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him. Lo! Allah is Hearer, Knower. (PICKTHAL Translation, Quran 8:12-16)

Verses 8:12-17 are in the context of Battle Of Badr. Ansar Al-’Adl ( Source ) comments on 8:12-13:
“The historical context is that this verse was revealed at the Battle of Badr, a battle in which the pagans of Makkah traveled over 200 miles to destroy the Muslims of Madinah. The Pagans of Makkah had an army of about 1000 while the Muslims were only 300 followers. The Prophet Muhammad ((peace be upon him)) and his followers had suffered severe persecutions and torture for 13 years in the city of Makkah. Having fled from Makkah to the safety of Madinah, they found that they were once again threatened.”

Al-Mubarakpuri, Ar-Raheeq Al-Makhtum; Riyadh-Saudi Arabia, Dar-us-Salam Publications, 1996; pp. 219-220, says:

“When the fierce engagement grew too hot he (Prophet Muhammed) again began to supplicate his Lord saying: “O Allâh! Should this group (of Muslims) be defeated today, You will no longer be worshipped.”…. Immediate was the response from Allâh, Who sent down angels from the heavens for the help and assistance of the Prophet (Peace be upon him) and his companions. The Noble Qur’ân observes:

And recall when your Lord inspired the angels: “Verily, I am with you, so keep firm those who have believed. I will cast terror into the hearts of those who have disbelieved.” [8:12]”

Furthermore, 8:19 says:
(O Qureysh!) If ye sought a judgment, now hath the judgment come unto you. And if ye cease (from persecuting the believers) it will be better for you, but if ye return (to the attack) We also shall return. And your host will avail you naught, however numerous it be, and (know) that Allah is with the believers (in His Guidance). (PICKTHAL Translation, Quran 8:19)

It is obvious from historical and textual context therefore that the verse in no sense promote killing of innocents. Verse 8:19 reaches out a hand of peace towards the Qureysh despite their aggression.

Quran 5:51
Translation of PICKTHAL is usually quoted:
O ye who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for friends. They are friends one to another. He among you who taketh them for friends is (one) of them. Lo! Allah guideth not wrongdoing folk. (PICKTHAL Translation Quran 5:51)

The arabic word Awliya used in 5:51 is mistranslated by PICKTHAL and other major translators. More accurate translation of the word Awliya would be “Protector” , “allies” or “intimate friends”. Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi says [ Source ]

“In the verse you quoted, the word “Awliya” is used. It is a plural and its singular is “wali”. The correct translation of the word “”wali”” is not “friend” but it is someone who is very close and intimate. It is also used to mean “guardian, protector, patron, lord and master.”

In addition, according to Ectaco Online Dictionary, root word of Awliya (Al-wali الولي) means:

N PROTECTOR

Whilst according to the same dictionary words for friends in arabic are:
N صديق, رفيق, زميل, نصير, الصاحبي عضو من جماعة المهتزين, الرفيق,
V صادق, آزر
[ Source ]

Al-Wali and awliya are NOT mentioned in the above list of friends.

However, according to the same dictionary, an Arabic word for protector is الولي (the wali):

N الحامي, المدافع, الولي, النصير, الواقية أداة للوقاية من اّذى, الوصي على العرش
[ Source ]

Allah says that Allah alone is the Auliya (in a sense of a protector):
The likeness of those who take Auliyâ’ (protectors and helpers) other than Allâh is as the likeness of a spider, who builds (for itself) a house, but verily, the frailest (weakest) of houses is the spider’s house; if they but knew. (Al-’Ankabut 29:41)

Or have they taken (for worship) Auliyâ’ (guardians, supporters, helpers, protectors, etc.) besides Him? But Allâh, He Alone is the Walî (Protector, etc.). And it is He Who gives life to the dead, and He is Able to do all things. (Ash-Shura 42:9)

The word Auliya is also used as a substitiotion for God/Lord:

Say (O Muhammad SAW): “Who is the Lord of the heavens and the earth?” Say: “(It is) Allâh.” Say: “Have you then taken (for worship) Auliyâ’ (protectors, etc.) other than Him, such as have no power either for benefit or for harm to themselves?” Say: “Is the blind equal to the one who sees? Or darkness equal to light? Or do they assign to Allâh partners who created the like of His creation, so that the creation (which they made and His creation) seemed alike to them.” Say: “Allâh is the Creator of all things, He is the One, the Irresistible.” (Ra’d 13:16)

Do then those who disbelieve think that they can take My slaves [i.e., the angels, Allâh’s Messengers, ‘Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), etc.] as Auliyâ’ (lords, gods, protectors, etc.) besides Me? Verily, We have prepared Hell as an entertainment for the disbelievers (in the Oneness of Allâh Islâmic Monotheism). (Al-Kahf 18:102)

Verily, they can avail you nothing against Allâh (if He wants to punish you). Verily, the Zâlimûn (polytheists, wrong-doers, etc.) are Auliyâ’ (protectors, helpers, etc.) to one another, but Allâh is the Walî (Helper, Protector, etc.) of the Muttaqûn (pious – see V.2:2). (Al-Jathiyah 45:19)

Or have they taken (for worship) Auliyâ’ (guardians, supporters, helpers, protectors, etc.) besides Him? But Allâh, He Alone is the Walî (Protector, etc.). And it is He Who gives life to the dead, and He is Able to do all things. (Ash-Shura 42:9)

Surely, the religion (i.e. the worship and the obedience) is for Allâh only. And those who take Auliyâ’ (protectors and helpers) besides Him (say): “We worship them only that they may bring us near to Allâh.” Verily, Allâh will judge between them concerning that wherein they differ. Truly, Allâh guides not him who is a liar, and a disbeliever. (Az-Zumar 39:3)

Quran 9:111
Verses 9:111-112 states:
Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur’an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme. Those that turn (to Allah) in repentance; that serve Him, and praise Him; that wander in devotion to the cause of Allah,: that bow down and prostrate themselves in prayer; that enjoin good and forbid evil; and observe the limit set by Allah;- (These do rejoice). So proclaim the glad tidings to the Believers. (YUSUF ALI Translation, Quran 9:111-112)

As we read in Quran limits set by Allah are: “Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors.” (Yusuf Ali Translation, Quran 2:190).

Thus in the light of 2:190 it can be easily understood that the verse teaches self-defense in a form of a physical jihad (striving in the path of Allah). Let us also remember the rest of context of Chapter 9, which we have discussed before in 9:5 and 9:29.

Part 2: Providing accurate picture of Islam

Quran preaches peace
Unsurprisingly, Islam-critic shy away from posting verses of the Quran, which preaches peace. By bombarding verses out of their context or using dubious translations they seek to give the impression that a book such as Quran leaves no place for peace.

Can Muslim and non-Muslim co-exist?
One of the common misconception is that Quran teaches that either non-Muslim must be forced to become Muslim or they must be put to death. They justify themselves by misquoting verses, most of which we have discussed in this article. Now, let’s examine what Quran really says, does Quran allow non-Muslim to keep their religion? One whole chapter is dedicated in Quran to this topic called Surah Kafiroon (Chapter THE DISBELIEVERS):

Say: O disbelievers! I worship not that which ye worship; Nor worship ye that which I worship. And I shall not worship that which ye worship. Nor will ye worship that which I worship. Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion. (PICKTHAL Translation, Quran 109:1-6)

The chapter gives crystal-clear evidence of “let and let live”. Quran states “Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion”. Thus no enforcement of religion by sword or otherwise is suggested in Islam. Furthermore, Quran says that there is no compulsion in religion; non-Muslims do not have to become Muslims against their wishes:

There is no compulsion in religion. The right direction is henceforth distinct from error. And he who rejecteth false deities and believeth in Allah hath grasped a firm handhold which will never break. Allah is Hearer, Knower. (PICKTHAL Translation, Quran 2:256)

Does Quran not say kill (innocent) non-believers?
Murder is a grave sin in Islam, Quran says in 5:32:

For that cause We decreed for the Children of Israel that whosoever killeth a human being for other than manslaughter or corruption in the earth, it shall be as if he had killed all mankind, and whoso saveth the life of one, it shall be as if he had saved the life of all mankind. Our messengers came unto them of old with clear proofs (of Allah’s Sovereignty), but afterwards lo! many of them became prodigals in the earth. (PICKTHAL Translation, Quran 5:32)

As Quran points out killing an innocent being is like killing an entire humanity, which naturally leaves no place for killing innocents. It must be pointed out that Quran states “…whosoever killeth a human being…”, thus referring to a human being and not simply restricted to Muslims.

Quran also says:
And slay not the life which Allah hath forbidden save with right. Whoso is slain wrongfully, We have given power unto his heir, but let him not commit excess in slaying. Lo! he will be helped. (PICKTHAL Translation, Quran 17:33)

Quran emphasizes not to slay unjustly!

Does Quran not states to hate non-Muslims and treat them unjustly?
This is another common misconception, Quran itself describes how ought a Muslim to a treat non-Muslims:

Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just. (PICKTHAL Translation, Quran 60:

Quran states to deal KINDLY and JUSTLY with those who don’t fight us. It does not only order Muslims “not to live and let live” but to even go a step further in living peacefully and deal with them kindly and justly.

Another verse says:
O ye who believe! Be steadfast witnesses for Allah in equity, and let not hatred of any people seduce you that ye deal not justly. Deal justly, that is nearer to your duty. Observe your duty to Allah. Lo! Allah is Informed of what ye do. Allah hath promised those who believe and do good works: Theirs will be forgiveness and immense reward. (PICKTHAL Translation, Quran 5:8-9)

Allah emphasizes not to let hatred of people prevent them from upholding justice.

Does Quran not say to wage war with non-Muslims for any reason possible?
Quran states:

To those against whom war is made, permission is given (to fight), because they are wronged;- and verily, Allah is most powerful for their aid;- (They are) those who have been expelled from their homes in defiance of right,- (for no cause) except that they say, “our Lord is Allah”. Did not Allah check one set of people by means of another, there would surely have been pulled down monasteries, churches, synagogues, and mosques, in which the name of Allah is commemorated in abundant measure. Allah will certainly aid those who aid his (cause);- for verily Allah is full of Strength, Exalted in Might, (able to enforce His Will). (YUSUF ALI Translation, Quran 22:39-40)

There are reasons for which permission of war is given is mentioned in the verse as those have been wronged and “expelled from their homes in defiance of right” because they are Muslim. Quran also calls upon its followers not to transgress limits:

Fight in the cause of Allah those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for Allah loveth not transgressors. (YUSUF ALI Translation, Quran 2:190)

http://norasensation.wordpress.com/2008/10/16/misquoted-violent-verses-in-the-holy-quran/

thought you were an atheist didge

never met an atheist who cares so much about defending a religion