Labour leader Keir Stammer can't answer the simple question of whether a woman has a penis or not...

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What a complete numpty!!!

I'm sorry but you are talking absolute waffle!!!


In my opinion, your gender is set as in what your biological status is... It is not something that is up for any choice, in the way that a person might choose what clothes they feel like wearing on any given day, or what hair style they feel like having, or what they feel like having for lunch/dinner etc...


In the same way that a 70 year old 5ft tall Chinese woman is not a 6ft4inch tall African Zulu warrior who's parents were a 17th century dolphin and a 20th century giraffe!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:I'm sorry but you are talking absolute waffle!!!

That has no meaning.

Tommy Monk wrote:In my opinion, your gender is set as in what your biological status is... It is not something that is up for any choice, in the way that a person might choose what clothes they feel like wearing on any given day, or what hair style they feel like having, or what they feel like having for lunch/dinner etc...

Without evidence, this is a religious claim.  That is, it has to be taken on faith.  You are basically taking a mental state, and saying there is a fast connection to the biological state of the holder.

It's like you were arbitrarily taking the right nipple on your chest, and saying if you favor it you are a Tory.  If you favor the left, you are Labor.  All you have is your assumption that right is associated with Tory, and left is associated with Labor.  You are assuming that male genitals mean male gender, and vice-versa.  You have no proof, of course.

Tommy Monk wrote:In the same way that a 70 year old 5ft tall Chinese woman is not a 6ft4inch tall African Zulu warrior who's parents were a 17th century dolphin and a 20th century giraffe!!!

There you go again - making statements you can't defend.  No, I don't agree that LGBTQ are consistent with their genitals, and your argument does nothing to persuade anyone.  You don't even try to prove it!  You’re just dealing in Aesop's Fables.[/quote]

What the fuk are you waffling about, you complete cretin!!!???

Tommy Monk wrote:What the fuk are you waffling about, you complete cretin!!!???

Lost track of the subject?  Why am I the cretin, when it's your inadequacies that are at play?  Perhaps you get lost when trying to understand another theory.

Let's go with your theory awhile, since you don’t seem to grasp a direct discussion.  You say the body makes the connection – “the mind is a physical construct of the body”,  which is in turn “a physical construct of the genetic make-up of a person”.  You maintain that the mind cannot be (in your own words) “a separate spirit/soul that is placed inside a physical body at some point and is a sort of inhabitant of the body...”  Your position is:

Tommy Monk wrote:your gender is set as in what your biological status is... It is not something that is up for any choice, in the way that a person might choose what clothes they feel like wearing on any given day, or what hair style they feel like having, or what they feel like having for lunch/dinner etc...

So, gender is corporeal (“relating to a person's body, especially as opposed to their spirit” – Oxford Dictionary)?  If it is a corporeal part of the body, what connects the genitals to gender?  Is it neurological, circulatory or mechanical (ie, skeletal)?  Describe, in your own words, the causal connection that goes from the genitals to the gender preference, wherever that takes place, such that it compels a certain behavior, male or female.

Then, explain how you describe the LBGTQ?  It certainly is a phenomenon; else you wouldn’t be talking about it.  So, that means that the LBGTQ exist.  The question is, why?

Is it “crossed wires”? Or discretionary? The latter suggests it is intentional – it is elective, chosen? Why would a person not follow his or her DNA template, if it is discretionary? It seems to me that would be a given, almost instinctual. Our DNA template tells us to breath, eat, and sleep; so, we breath, eat, and sleep. Yet, here you are telling us that gender is determined by DNA, yet it is discretionary. How, if it is a biological trait, can we choose to ignore it? Why is it not automatic, like breathing, eating or sleeping? Please explain.

Yawn...

Tommy Monk wrote:Yawn...

Once again...stuck for an answer.  Read as: FULL RETREAT!  

No... Just bored of reading your waffle...

Tommy Monk wrote:No... Just bored of reading your waffle...

Aww...now your upset.  Don't be.  I was just feelin' a lil' mischievous this morning.  Take a break.

Now that you've got my curiosity peeked, I'll look around for some material on gender - whether it's biological or elective.  I found this interesting article in Psychology Today:

Psychology Today wrote:There is a difference between “sex” and “gender.” Sex is “biological” while gender is “psychological,” “social,” or “cultural.” A person’s gender can be different from a person’s sex. Gender is thus “socially constructed” in the sense that, unlike biological sex, gender is a product of society.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/old-school-parenting-modern-day-families/201907/time-move-beyond-gender-is-socially-constructed#:~:text=There%20is%20a%20difference%20between,is%20a%20product%20of%20society.

Read it over. We can discuss it when you're feeling better.

Talk soon...

You've just said it is psychological...


adjective
of, affecting, or arising in the mind; related to the mental and emotional state of a person.


Funny you try to tell me I'm wrong then post up evidence supporting what I say...


What a clown!

Tommy Monk wrote:You've just said it is psychological...

adjective
of, affecting, or arising in the mind; related to the mental and emotional state of a person.

Funny you try to tell me I'm wrong then post up evidence supporting what I say...

What a clown!

You need to define terms.  The Psychological Today article deals with precisely the dichotomy with which you are wrestling.

It divides the category into two efforts: 1) gender is a public expression; or 2) it is self-talk.  That is, either gender is  the external reading of a person, or it is the way the person feels internally.  Thus, sex refers to the biological reproductive apparatus, while gender refers to cultural expectations and norms.  It is not possible for gender to simultaneously be an arbitrary product of culture and an inherent experience of the individual.

The problem is, it begs for a social context.  To the extent that it goes social, it loses some personal meaning; whereas, "...any identity claim must be accompanied by some sort of public expression that can be shared with others."

You, tom, are looking for social confirmation - some sort of empirical evidence that you can point to.  Hence, you go to the biological genitals of the person.  This is a hard fact that is observable, and thus communicable (social).  But it pays no real attention to the internal feelings of the person.

You greet this by saying it saying "internal feelings" is spiritual and out-of-body.  

Tommy Monk wrote:So are you saying the mind is not a physical construct of the brain which is in turn a physical construct of the genetic make up of a person?

Are you saying that the mind is a separate spirit/soul that is placed inside a physical body...?

Well, it does relate to the mind/body dualism -

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind%E2%80%93body_dualism -

in the same way that thought is distinguished from the body.  But that does not mean that it is not an integral part of personal, human experience.

It is the very thing that the Psychological Today article calls "internal feelings".  The word "internal" should clue you to the fact that it is not separate, any more than any thought is: so far from a "separate experience", it is inward thought.  Truth is: "Mental constructs are simply the set of ideas and beliefs that we hold."

https://medium.com/@richardragnarson/mental-constructs-the-cornerstone-of-self-improvement-4708b1b20b98#:~:text=Mental%20constructs%20are%20simply%20the,them%20as%20opinion%2C%20not%20facts.

Mental disorders manifest themselves in various ways...

Tommy Monk wrote:Mental disorders manifest themselves in various ways...

Off-point.  We are talking about gender id, which is not a mental disorder - unless you are saying that everyone is mentally deranged.   Mental disorders are usually associated with distress or impairment in important areas of functioning.  Gender identity does not appear on the Stress-Distress-Impairment Continuum of the APA. https://www.apaservices.org/practice/ce/self-care/colleague-assist

Everyone has a gender identity.  "No one needs to be locked into fixed gender categories. Any individual is free to identify their gender as they see fit."

https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/old-school-parenting-modern-day-families/201907/time-move-beyond-gender-is-socially-constructed#:~:text=There%20is%20a%20difference%20between,is%20a%20product%20of%20society.

But a man is not a woman and a woman is not a man... Thinking you are something that you are clearly not, is a problem of the mind...

Tommy Monk wrote:But a man is not a woman and a woman is not a man... Thinking you are something that you are clearly not, is a problem of the mind...

I know...and if you sail west far enough, you'll fall off.  That was before new thinking came along and created a fuller, bigger and more up-to-date conception of the world.

Yawn... Another false comparison...

Tommy Monk wrote:Yawn... Another false comparison...

To the contrary, it's real. It's the one where the nearly universally mistaken opinion about the world gets its turn-around.

There are others:

1. A bearded old man who lives in the sky created the universe.
2. Rhinos are actually fat unicorns.
3. Area 51 is a myth.
4. India has a Bill of Rights for cows.
5. We are the only life in the universe.
6. There are more submarines in the sky than there are airplanes in the ocean.
7. The idea for frozen food came from the dark side of the moon.
8. Twinkle, Twinkle, Little Star was not composed by Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart when he was 5 years old.
9. There is no evidence that Jesus was born on December 25.
10. A duck's quack actually does echo, although the echo may be difficult to hear for humans under some circumstances.

And of course, there is your myth about gender matching genitals.

You are mental if you think a man is a woman!!!


But you have already been asked if you would marry one or have a sexual relationship with one and you couldn't say that you would... Because a man is not a woman!!!


No matter how you dress it up... It's like putting lipstick on a pig!!!


Just like a horse painted in black and white stripes is not a zebra!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:You are mental if you think a man is a woman!!!

They once said that a human is not a bird...that man would never fly, too.  Now look at 'em, buzzing around in the sky.  Airports are all over, and there's everything from Cessna 172's to Boeing 777's, and hardly a person who hasn't flown.

Stretch your imagination/terminology a bit.  No one is saying that "a man is a woman'...all they are saying is that there are some men who behave like, and who feel feminine, just like nearly everyone has flown like a bird.

Tommy Monk wrote:But you have already been asked if you would marry one or have a sexual relationship with one and you couldn't say that you would... Because a man is not a woman!!!

So what?  I don't go that way.  It's a free country, for me as well as them.

Tommy Monk wrote:No matter how you dress it up... It's like putting lipstick on a pig!!!

Just like a horse painted in black and white stripes is not a zebra!!!

Haha...no matter how many colorful metaphors you dream up, the fact is: LGBTQ's exist, they are real, and they are in abundant enough numbers that you can't "define" them out of existence.  Apparently, the bearded old man in the sky has a purpose for them.  Better you get working on another theory.  

Their mental problems might make them feel a lot of ways...

Tommy Monk wrote:Their mental problems might make them feel a lot of ways...

Eh...mental problems?  Again, with the confusing adjectives.  I don't think transgender assignment is a problem, tho it can be a challenge.

As one famous transgender individual termed it, after gender reassignment surgery:

Hannah Zoey Tur (formerly Robert Albert Tur), founder of Los Angeles News Service wrote:"What I have is not political. It's a medical condition that was treated. I'm cured. I'm done. It's not a mental illness. There are differences in the brain."

 

Don't worry; be happy!  

And there are loads of people who "thought" they were in the "wrong body" and after doing all the hormones and surgery etc, totally regretted it and realised their issues were mental problems and not that they were in the wrong body at all!


"...84 percent of kids with gender dysphoria eventually desisted, or came to feel comfortable with their birth-assigned gender..."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/when-kids-come-in-saying-they-are-transgender-or-no-gender-these-doctors-try-to-help/2018/01/19/f635e5fa-dac0-11e7-a841-2066faf731ef_story.html


And...

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20191007/Hundreds-of-trans-people-regret-changing-their-gender-says-trans-activist.aspx

Tommy Monk wrote:And there are loads of people who "thought" they were in the "wrong body" and after doing all the hormones and surgery etc, totally regretted it and realised their issues were mental problems and not that they were in the wrong body at all!

"...84 percent of kids with gender dysphoria eventually desisted, or came to feel comfortable with their birth-assigned gender..."

https://www.washingtonpost.com/national/health-science/when-kids-come-in-saying-they-are-transgender-or-no-gender-these-doctors-try-to-help/2018/01/19/f635e5fa-dac0-11e7-a841-2066faf731ef_story.html

And...

https://www.news-medical.net/news/20191007/Hundreds-of-trans-people-regret-changing-their-gender-says-trans-activist.aspx

Your first article won’t even come up unless you subscribe to the periodical.  Your second article says: “many people who have gender reassignment regret the decision and want to return to their original sex.”  It goes on to admit: “There is a lack of information about how many people regret transitioning.”  Apparently, it simply purports anecdotally to share the story of a few individuals who regret having undergone it.  Heck, I've known people who regret getting a knee replacement, now that new medicines are available...the point is, you can't generalize from specifics.

So, again, these are not the quantitative studies you urge us to believe they are.  Anyway, it seems to me that this is not a quantitative question when it comes to individual personalities.  Of course you can turn anything into a quantitative question – just purport to count something - but then you change the inquiry from what is it, to how many have it or, how strong a movement is it.  IF you are struggling with a gender orientation question, individually, you don't really care about movements or counting the incidents.

It seems to me that we are still on the question of what is it(?) in this discussion.  You keep saying to be trans is mental illness, with emphasis on genitals to gender equivalency.  While I don't really know what it is, nevertheless as Tur says, "it’s a medical condition" but not "mental illness".

In any case, we are not counting the "loads of people who thought they were in the wrong body".  Until we know what that mental state is we can’t even be sure we are counting the same thing in a quantitative framework.

The article works for me...


Anyway...

As a senior congregational rabbi and a law professor of nearly 20 years in California, I was disappointed when Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson proved unable to define the word “woman” when asked during her confirmation hearings for a seat on the Supreme Court. That extraordinary difficulty to distinguish genders perfectly mirrored the crisis now prevalent in California public education.

The state’s school system, established to provide a safe learning climate for all students regardless of their ethnicity, race, language or religious affiliation, is now a social laboratory where students and families from devout faiths feel ostracized and isolated



Consider: A Catholic mom in Northern California enrolled her daughter in a public charter school. During her initial Zoom classes, the girl, an incoming freshman who had not yet set foot in the school due to Covid-19, was asked her name and “preferred pronouns.” She chose a male name and male pronouns. The school then used this information without informing her parents.

The parents of the high school freshman asked that I protect their anonymity. Their fear has been validated. Soon after the parents voiced their dismay with school officials, Child Protective Services showed up at their doorstep. The parents feel it was because they protested the school’s actions.

It is bad enough that government divides us by ethnicity, race, religion or language. Must our schools and law enforcement also be leveraged to divide our families, even separating parents from children, reinforcing radical gender ideas?

The new gender category “nonbinary” now appears on all student-information forms. Few parents, reared in a prior generation, realize that “nonbinary” means something akin to “unlimited gender choices.” The California Department of Education defines “nonbinary” as anything beyond the historic “male-female” binary understanding of gender. This can include new terms such as “transgender,” “nongender,” “intersex,” “agender,” “gender queer,” “gender fluid” and “pangender.”

Consider this “Pride Scholars Program” document on the official website of Irvine Valley College:+ is an acronym that means Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Transsexual, Two-spirit, Queer, Questioning, Intersex, Asexual, Ally, A-gender, Bi-gender, Gender Queer, Pansexual, Pangender and Gender Variant. Keep an open mind because this is continuously evolving

Really.

In its newly adopted Ethnic Studies Model Curriculum (chapter 3, page 6, note 5) the California Department of Education says the “usage of LGBTQ+ throughout this document is intended to represent an inclusive and ever-changing spectrum and understanding of identities . . . expand[ing] to include queer, questioning, intersex, asexual, allies, and alternative identities (LGBTQQIAA), as well as expanding concepts that may fall under this umbrella term in the future.”

In its Health Framework (chapter 5, line 675) CDE reiterates that these gender identities are ever-changing to continue expanding in the future. In a 2018 letter to the federal government explaining California state policy, former State Superintendent of Public Instruction Tom Torlakson made it clear that students could self-certify or choose their own gender. “The assumption underlying California policy is that gender is a spectrum that is not necessarily linked to biological sex. State legislation allows all individuals, including students, to self-certify to their chosen gender category of male, female, or nonbinary . . . .” The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention defines “gender nonbinary” essentially as meaning endless gender categories: “Other terms to describe this identity include genderqueer, agender, bigender, gender creative, etc.”

The California Teachers Association adopted a policy (R-1 to R-2) in January 2020 stating that, for the sake of “equity,” transgender students should be able to access hormone therapy without parental consent just as cisgender children may; in fact parental permission was called a “barrier.” The rationale behind this “civil rights” policy: (p. 81) inasmuch as birth control hormones can be obtained by cis genders (males and females identifying with their biological sex) without parent permission, therefore hormones to stop puberty, obtained by students who identify as other genders, also should be provided without parent permission.

As an Orthodox Jew, a member of the 1,500-member Rabbinical Alliance of America and Senior Rabbinic Fellow at the 2,000-member Coalition for Jewish Values, I stand with my rabbinic colleagues alongside Americans and clergy of other faiths — devout Catholics, Protestants of varying denominations, faithful Muslims, Hindus and others — who share family values similar to ours. Together, we oppose the erosion of parental rights, as well as the deceptions perpetuated through public education today.


https://edsource.org/2022/controversial-gender-ideology-in-public-education-undermines-families-of-faith/671790




What a load of bollocks!!!


This is poison being taught in schools!!?

Tommy Monk wrote:The article works for me...

Yeah…a Brit isn’t likely to subscribe to The Washington Post, so they don’t block it over there.

Tommy Monk wrote:Anyway...

As a senior congregational rabbi and a law professor of nearly 20 years in California, I was disappointed when Judge Ketanji Brown Jackson proved unable to define the word “woman” when asked during her confirmation hearings for a seat on the Supreme Court. That extraordinary difficulty to distinguish genders perfectly mirrored the crisis now prevalent in California public education.

I told you it’s a definitional problem...what do you expect?  Is a woman (or man) what’s on her mind, or what’s in between her legs? It's a question of meaning, not of empirical reality.

The best answer is that there’s a difference between gender and genitals.  One is mind, the other is biology.  That’s the mind/body distinction, that western philosophers have recognized for centuries: je pense donc je suis.

Tommy Monk wrote:The state’s school system, established to provide a safe learning climate for all students regardless of their ethnicity, race, language or religious affiliation, is now a social laboratory where students and families from devout faiths feel ostracized and isolated

Consider: A Catholic mom in Northern California enrolled her daughter in a public charter school. During her initial Zoom classes, the girl, an incoming freshman who had not yet set foot in the school due to Covid-19, was asked her name and “preferred pronouns.”  She chose a male name and male pronouns. The school then used this information without informing her parents.

It is bad enough that government divides us by ethnicity, race, religion or language. Must our schools and law enforcement also be leveraged to divide our families, even separating parents from children, reinforcing radical gender ideas?

I suggest it wasn’t a state school.  It says right in the passage you offer, that it was “a public charter school”.

Those are ‘publicly authorized’ (in the law), but privately run institutions – the charter school movement began when certain kooks didn’t like the public schools, and so demanded 'independent thinking' schools to teach their religion, or other thematic nonsense.  There are charter schools for religions, cults, white supremacists, marijuana smokers, and many other silly causes.

It doesn’t surprise me that someone from that ilk would cross paths with the law.  Just another radical, homophobic cult.  Did you know that Charles Manson was homophobic, too?  

Tommy Monk wrote:The new gender category “nonbinary” now appears on all student-information forms. Few parents, reared in a prior generation, realize that “nonbinary” means something akin to “unlimited gender choices.” The California Department of Education defines “nonbinary” as anything beyond the historic “male-female” binary understanding of gender. This can include new terms such as “transgender,” “nongender,” “intersex,” “agender,” “gender queer,” “gender fluid” and “pangender.”

Consider this “Pride Scholars Program” document on the official website of Irvine Valley College:+ is an acronym that means Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Transsexual, Two-spirit, Queer, Questioning, Intersex, Asexual, Ally, A-gender, Bi-gender, Gender Queer, Pansexual, Pangender and Gender Variant. Keep an open mind because this is continuously evolving

It's an attempt to be considerate, and respect everyone’s references.  Nothing wrong with being polite.

Tommy Monk wrote:In its newly adopted Ethnic Studies Model Curriculum (chapter 3, page 6, note 5) the California Department of Education says the “usage of LGBTQ+ throughout this document is intended to represent an inclusive and ever-changing spectrum and understanding of identities . . . expand[ing] to include queer, questioning, intersex, asexual, allies, and alternative identities (LGBTQQIAA), as well as expanding concepts that may fall under this umbrella term in the future.”

In its Health Framework (chapter 5, line 675) CDE reiterates that these gender identities are ever-changing to continue expanding in the future. In a 2018 letter to the federal government explaining California state policy, former State Superintendent of Public Instruction Tom Torlakson made it clear that students could self-certify or choose their own gender. “The assumption underlying California policy is that gender is a spectrum that is not necessarily linked to biological sex. State legislation allows all individuals, including students, to self-certify to their chosen gender category of male, female, or nonbinary . . . .” The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention defines “gender nonbinary” essentially as meaning endless gender categories: “Other terms to describe this identity include genderqueer, agender, bigender, gender creative, etc.”

The California Teachers Association adopted a policy (R-1 to R-2) in January 2020 stating that, for the sake of “equity,” transgender students should be able to access hormone therapy without parental consent just as cisgender children may; in fact parental permission was called a “barrier.” The rationale behind this “civil rights” policy: (p. 81) inasmuch as birth control hormones can be obtained by cis genders (males and females identifying with their biological sex) without parent permission, therefore hormones to stop puberty, obtained by students who identify as other genders, also should be provided without parent permission.

As an Orthodox Jew, a member of the 1,500-member Rabbinical Alliance of America and Senior Rabbinic Fellow at the 2,000-member Coalition for Jewish Values, I stand with my rabbinic colleagues alongside Americans and clergy of other faiths — devout Catholics, Protestants of varying denominations, faithful Muslims, Hindus and others — who share family values similar to ours. Together, we oppose the erosion of parental rights, as well as the deceptions perpetuated through public education today.

https://edsource.org/2022/controversial-gender-ideology-in-public-education-undermines-families-of-faith/671790

What a load of bollocks!!!

This is poison being taught in schools!!?

Out of consideration for all people.  Isn’t ‘equality’ wonderful?  I suggest you want inequality for the LGBTQ because you want to exclude them from goods and services that should be available to all.  Well, the norms are changing – get with it!

No... It's just a load of nonsense and no good for anyone!!!


Absolute load of bullshit!!!


Oh, I'm a girl and I like to have short hair so I'll pretend I'm a boy and make everyone else refer to me as a boy even though I've got big tits and a vagina and a cervix and ovaries and I'm really a girl...


Yeah!!!


Schools should not be teaching and/or promoting this nonsense!!!


No wonder so many kids are leaving school without any real knowledge or even ability to read and write and do basic maths properly!!!


It's a fukkin disgrace!!!

Quill .. you are what you are... If your mind thinks you are something else then that is a problem in the mind and should be treated, not pandered to...


What next... Someone starts to say they think they are Jesus Christ... What, do we make them head of all the Christian churches in the world and give him 12 deciples to roam around with...?


No... This person will be treated for a mental disorder!!!


Just like a man who thinks he is really a woman, has a mental disorder that needs mental health treatment!!!

Quill, I know you have married daughter but do you have grandchildren?

you have 2 daughters, right? if so, are they both married?

Tommy Monk wrote:No... It's just a load of nonsense and no good for anyone!!!

Absolute load of bullshit!!!

Oh, I'm a girl and I like to have short hair so I'll pretend I'm a boy and make everyone else refer to me as a boy even though I've got big tits and a vagina and a cervix and ovaries and I'm really a girl...

Yeah!!!

You add nothing by being rude.

Tommy Monk wrote:Schools should not be teaching and/or promoting this nonsense!!!

No wonder so many kids are leaving school without any real knowledge or even ability to read and write and do basic maths properly!!!

It's a fukkin disgrace!!!

The reason the kids "are leaving school without any real knowledge or even ability to read and write and do basic maths properly" is they are joining the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers, and other radical, right-wing groups. They don't know 2 + 2 = 4, or how to conjugate verbs, but they can Field Strip an AR-15 in less than 35 seconds.

Tommy Monk wrote:Quill .. you are what you are... If your mind thinks you are something else then that is a problem in the mind and should be treated, not pandered to...

What next... Someone starts to say they think they are Jesus Christ... What, do we make them head of all the Christian churches in the world and give him 12 deciples to roam around with...?

You can be whatever you want to be.  I wanted to be a professor, and so I went to university and became a doctor.  Then I wanted to learn about law - so I went to law school and became a lawyer.

The trans want to be in another body, so they choose to undergo gender reassignment surgery and become whomever they want.  There is a little more urgency to them, as they are in a body that doesn't fit with their self-perception.  A body is a bit more important than a degree on the wall.  But it’s all in what you want to be.

So...it's between them and their doctor.  None of your business.

Tommy Monk wrote:No... This person will be treated for a mental disorder!!!

Just like a man who thinks he is really a woman, has a mental disorder that needs mental health treatment!!!

Haha...if you take your vehicle to a mechanic, and he fixes it, shall we call it a 'motor health treatment'?  The point is, it can be fixed - so fix it.  As Zoey Tur says:

Zoey Tur wrote:It's a medical condition that was treated. I'm cured. I'm done. It's not a mental illness. There are differences in the brain."

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Quill .. you are what you are... If your mind thinks you are something else then that is a problem in the mind and should be treated, not pandered to...

What next... Someone starts to say they think they are Jesus Christ... What, do we make them head of all the Christian churches in the world and give him 12 deciples to roam around with...?

You can be whatever you want to be.  I wanted to be a professor, and so I went to university and became a doctor.  Then I wanted to learn about law - so I went to law school and became a lawyer.

The trans want to be in another body, so they choose to undergo gender reassignment surgery and become whomever they want.  There is a little more urgency to them, as they are in a body that doesn't fit with their self-perception.  A body is a bit more important than a degree on the wall.  But it’s all in what you want to be.

So...it's between them and their doctor.  None of your business.

Tommy Monk wrote:No... This person will be treated for a mental disorder!!!

Just like a man who thinks he is really a woman, has a mental disorder that needs mental health treatment!!!

If you take your vehicle to a mechanic, and he fixes it, shall we call it a 'motor disorder'?  

[/quote]

gelico wrote:Quill, I know you have married daughter but do you have grandchildren?

you have 2 daughters, right?  if so, are they both married?

All are married.  The two you mention are professionals...one is a physician; the other is an attorney. Both have children.

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Quill .. you are what you are... If your mind thinks you are something else then that is a problem in the mind and should be treated, not pandered to...

What next... Someone starts to say they think they are Jesus Christ... What, do we make them head of all the Christian churches in the world and give him 12 deciples to roam around with...?

Haha...if you take your vehicle to a mechanic, and he fixes it, shall we call it a 'motor health treatment'?  

no but if customer was kicking off cos he drove off a cliff and the propellers on his helicopter didn't work, (he was fortunate it was a low cliff, he was lucky not to have been killed etc) the mechanic wouldn't sympathise and tut tut about the last mechanic to have serviced ''your helicopter'' not doing a professional job,,,,, they would point out that it was a fucking car and not designed to fly

gelico wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Haha...if you take your vehicle to a mechanic, and he fixes it, shall we call it a 'motor health treatment'?  

no but if customer was kicking off cos he drove off a cliff and the propellers on his helicopter didn't work, (he was fortunate it was a low cliff, he was lucky not to have been killed etc)  the mechanic wouldn't sympathise and tut tut about the last mechanic to have serviced ''your helicopter'' not doing a professional job,,,,, they would point out that it was a fucking car and not designed to fly

Sympathy has naught to do with it.  You have a Corvette.  It comes stock with a 350 cubic-inch block, and you want a 427 cubic-inch block.  The mechanic changes it - no comment.  He doesn’t question your decision.  He doesn’t pass judgment, as tommy is doing.  He says: Boss wants a 427 engine block, he gets a 427!

End of...

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:No... It's just a load of nonsense and no good for anyone!!!

Absolute load of bullshit!!!

Oh, I'm a girl and I like to have short hair so I'll pretend I'm a boy and make everyone else refer to me as a boy even though I've got big tits and a vagina and a cervix and ovaries and I'm really a girl...

Yeah!!!

You add nothing by being rude.

Tommy Monk wrote:Schools should not be teaching and/or promoting this nonsense!!!

No wonder so many kids are leaving school without any real knowledge or even ability to read and write and do basic maths properly!!!

It's a fukkin disgrace!!!

The reason the kids "are leaving school without any real knowledge or even ability to read and write and do basic maths properly" is they are joining the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers, and other radical, right-wing groups. They don't know 2 + 2 = 4, or how to conjugate verbs, but they can Field Strip an AR-15 in less than 35 seconds.

You twisted lefty liberals are too busy teaching them 2+2=5... That is the preblem!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

You add nothing by being rude.  



The reason the kids "are leaving school without any real knowledge or even ability to read and write and do basic maths properly" is they are joining the Proud Boys and the Oath Keepers, and other radical, right-wing groups.  They don't know 2 + 2 = 4, or how to conjugate verbs, but they can Field Strip an AR-15 in less than 35 seconds.

You twisted lefty liberals are too busy teaching them 2+2=5... That is the preblem!!!

Nonsense. I don't even teach anymore.

The problem is that non-professionals are meddling in education curricula. Teaching is a real discipline. Men like Florida governor Ron DeSantis, and Texas governor Greg Abbott, are like monkeys trying to design curricula to fit about circa 1450, and burn the books of all we've learned since then.

They remind me of the Roman Church, when da Vinci and Galileo had to write their discoveries in code so as to avoid the stake and fire. Ignorance and authority makes for bazaar results.

Yes ... exactly... it is these non-professionals who decided all of this load of claptrap!!!


"...The new gender category “nonbinary” now appears on all student-information forms. Few parents, reared in a prior generation, realize that “nonbinary” means something akin to “unlimited gender choices.” The California Department of Education defines “nonbinary” as anything beyond the historic “male-female” binary understanding of gender. This can include new terms such as “transgender,” “nongender,” “intersex,” “agender,” “gender queer,” “gender fluid” and “pangender.”

Consider this “Pride Scholars Program” document on the official website of Irvine Valley College:+ is an acronym that means Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Transsexual, Two-spirit, Queer, Questioning, Intersex, Asexual, Ally, A-gender, Bi-gender, Gender Queer, Pansexual, Pangender and Gender Variant. Keep an open mind because this is continuously evolving..."



Schools are a place for academic learning... Not for the promotion of the nonsense listed above!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:Yes ... exactly... it is these non-professionals who decided all of this load of claptrap!!!

"...The new gender category “nonbinary” now appears on all student-information forms. Few parents, reared in a prior generation, realize that “nonbinary” means something akin to “unlimited gender choices.” The California Department of Education defines “nonbinary” as anything beyond the historic “male-female” binary understanding of gender. This can include new terms such as “transgender,” “nongender,” “intersex,” “agender,” “gender queer,” “gender fluid” and “pangender.”

Consider this “Pride Scholars Program” document on the official website of Irvine Valley College:+ is an acronym that means Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual, Transgender, Transsexual, Two-spirit, Queer, Questioning, Intersex, Asexual, Ally, A-gender, Bi-gender, Gender Queer, Pansexual, Pangender and Gender Variant. Keep an open mind because this is continuously evolving..."

Schools are a place for academic learning... Not for the promotion of the nonsense listed above!!!

Claptrap?  Nonsense?  Outbursts and invectives are not cutting it, tom.  Sticks and stones… etc.

Putting the definitional issue aside – still undecided, I might add – you have yet to articulate how you are harmed by the LGBTQ in almost 6-pages of this thread.  Even the definitional issue is a casual amusement, and of no consequence.

No harm, no foul.  Move on.  

New York Times wrote:FINA Restricts Transgender Women From Competing at Elite Level

The international swimming federation said transgender women who had experienced male puberty could not compete in women’s events.

June 19, 2022/Updated June 20, 2022, 7:18 a.m. ET  The world governing body for swimming effectively barred transgender women from the highest levels of women’s international competition on Sunday, intensifying a debate over gender and sports that has roiled state legislatures and increasingly divided parents, athletes and coaches at all levels.

The vote by FINA, which administers international competitions in water sports, prohibits transgender women from competing unless they began medical treatments to suppress production of testosterone before going through one of the early stages of puberty, or by age 12, whichever occurred later. It establishes one of the strictest rules against transgender participation in international sports. Scientists believe the onset of male puberty gives transgender women a lasting, irreversible physical advantage over athletes who were female at birth.

World swimming would also establish a new, “open” category for athletes who identify as women but do not meet the requirement to compete against people who were female at birth.

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/06/19/sports/fina-transgender-women-elite-swimming.html

The Open category is what interests me. The article goes on to note no transgender women are competing at the world swimming championships, and only one transgender woman, a Canadian soccer player, is known to have ever won a medal at the Olympics. However, Lia Thomas just became the first transgender woman to win the 500-yard women’s freestyle championship.

The article goes on to state"

NYTimes wrote:“It’s very unfortunate that FINA has made this ruling,” said Joanna Harper, a medical physicist who has written extensively on gender and sport and advised several international sports federations, including the International Olympic Committee. “Trans women are not taking over women’s sports, and they are not going to.”

Alejandra Caraballo, an instructor at Harvard Law School and an expert on transgender issues, said the FINA rule would give the green light for other bodies to pass similarly restrictive bans and also require athletes to produce as many as 10 years or more of invasive medical records and blood tests.

“This is an incredibly discriminatory policy that is attempting to fix a problem that doesn’t exist,” Caraballo said, adding, “This is the result of a moral panic because of Lia Thomas.”

Anne Lieberman, the director of policy and programs at Athlete Ally, a group that supports the rights of L.G.B.T.Q. athletes, called the regulation “deeply discriminatory, harmful, unscientific” and out of step with the I.O.C.’s guidelines on fairness and inclusion. She said the regulations would “not be enforceable without seriously violating the privacy and human rights of any athlete looking to compete in the women’s category.”

The International Olympic Committee has said that “until evidence determines otherwise, athletes should not be deemed to have an unfair or disproportionate competitive advantage due to their sex variations, physical appearance and/or transgender status.” (italics added.)

A man is not a woman.

Rugby league to BAN transgender athletes from competing in international events just days after they were banned from swimming

International Rugby League has ruled transgender players can't compete


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/nrl/article-10936099/Rugby-league-BAN-transgender-athletes-competing-international-events-NRL.html


About bloody time!


It is madness that they were ever allowed to compete against women in the first place!


A wolf in sheep's clothing is not a sheep!!!

Tommy Monk wrote:Rugby league to BAN transgender athletes from competing in international events just days after they were banned from swimming

International Rugby League has ruled transgender players can't compete

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/nrl/article-10936099/Rugby-league-BAN-transgender-athletes-competing-international-events-NRL.html

About bloody time!

It is madness that they were ever allowed to compete against women in the first place!

A wolf in sheep's clothing is not a sheep!!!

It's just rank homophobia. It won't last because it's only going to increase the pressure to reorganize the leagues. People get tired of having their own hypocrisy repeatedly shown to them.

Original Quill wrote:

Tommy Monk wrote:Rugby league to BAN transgender athletes from competing in international events just days after they were banned from swimming

International Rugby League has ruled transgender players can't compete

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/nrl/article-10936099/Rugby-league-BAN-transgender-athletes-competing-international-events-NRL.html

About bloody time!

It is madness that they were ever allowed to compete against women in the first place!

A wolf in sheep's clothing is not a sheep!!!

It's just rank homophobia.  It won't last because it's only going to increase the pressure to reorganize the leagues.  People get tired of having their own hypocrisy repeatedly shown to them.

I don't get the homophobia comment to be honest

There are plenty of sports in which body strength is irrelevant eg, table tennis, archery, snooker etc. It's all about accuracy and skill rather than strength so therefore male vs female doesn't matter.

However, for such sports which require sheer brute force/body strength it is ridiculous to have a male vs female competition

surely your own common sense tells you that much. Why the need for silly labels like ''homophobia''? It's not even a gay issue

It's about playing fair is all,,,,,

gelico wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

It's just rank homophobia.  It won't last because it's only going to increase the pressure to reorganize the leagues.  People get tired of having their own hypocrisy repeatedly shown to them.

I don't get the homophobia comment to be honest

There are plenty of sports in which body strength is irrelevant eg, table tennis, archery, snooker etc.  It's all about accuracy and skill rather than strength so therefore male vs female doesn't matter.

However, for such sports which require sheer brute force/body strength it is ridiculous to have a male vs female competition

surely your own common sense tells you that much.  Why the need for silly labels like ''homophobia''?  It's not even a gay issue

It's about playing fair is all,,,,,

Hi gels.  Q: Why the need for labels like “homophobia”?  A: What else do you call ‘status’ exclusion?  When we wouldn’t allow blacks to play in games, it was called racism.  When women were prevented from participation in games, it was called sexism.  The common label for similar discrimination against LBGTQ’s is “homophobia”, and that's why we use it. 'Homophobia' means dislike of or prejudice against gay people..

Obviously, there are not just two kinds of participants: male and female.  Why not add a third tier, to accommodate the LBGTQ?  The point is, we invent these categories to fit the skills and abilities of the participants, why not some accommodation for LGBTQ’s?  The one thing that is man-made, and therefore mutable is the game itself – the rules, including participation – why not change the one thing we do control?

Original Quill wrote:

gelico wrote:

I don't get the homophobia comment to be honest

There are plenty of sports in which body strength is irrelevant eg, table tennis, archery, snooker etc.  It's all about accuracy and skill rather than strength so therefore male vs female doesn't matter.

However, for such sports which require sheer brute force/body strength it is ridiculous to have a male vs female competition

surely your own common sense tells you that much.  Why the need for silly labels like ''homophobia''?  It's not even a gay issue

It's about playing fair is all,,,,,

Hi gels.  Why the need for labels like “homophobia”?  What else do you call ‘status’ exclusion?  When we wouldn’t allow blacks to play in games, it was called racism.  When women were prevented from participation in games, it was called sexism.  The common label for similar discrimination against LBGTQ’s is “homophobia”, and that is why it fits.

Obviously, there are not just two kinds of participants: male and female.  Why not add a third tier, to accommodate the LBGTQ?  The point is, we invent these categories to fit the skills and abilities of the participants, why not some accommodation for LGBTQ’s?  The one thing that is man-made, and therefore mutable is the game itself – the rules, including participation – why not change the one thing we do control?

I am in complete agreement with everything you have said, quill. The sentence in red is the exact point I was making myself with regards to skill and ability of sports such as table tennis, snooker and archery which male and female gender would be considered as equals. Whereas the brute strength and muscle mass required for something like weight lifting or wrestling would mean that male and female gender are most certainly not equal.

You are right, the sports are categorised appropriately so therefore surely the rules for each participant should reflect each category, no?

gelico wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Hi gels.  Why the need for labels like “homophobia”?  What else do you call ‘status’ exclusion?  When we wouldn’t allow blacks to play in games, it was called racism.  When women were prevented from participation in games, it was called sexism.  The common label for similar discrimination against LBGTQ’s is “homophobia”, and that is why it fits.

Obviously, there are not just two kinds of participants: male and female.  Why not add a third tier, to accommodate the LBGTQ?  The point is, we invent these categories to fit the skills and abilities of the participants, why not some accommodation for LGBTQ’s?  The one thing that is man-made, and therefore mutable is the game itself – the rules, including participation – why not change the one thing we do control?

I am in complete agreement with everything you have said, quill.  The sentence in red is the exact point I was making myself with regards to skill and ability of sports such as table tennis, snooker and archery which male and female gender would be considered as equals. Whereas the brute strength and muscle mass required for something like weight lifting or wrestling would mean that male and female gender are most certainly not equal.

You are right, the sports are categorised appropriately so therefore surely the rules for each participant should reflect each category, no?

Absolutely. We either restructure the game, or we have different leagues. In softball, we have already moved in the fences so that women can hit homeruns. In wheelchair basketball, we have already changed the rules so that the disabled can dribble.

We can't change sex, gender, color or disability...so change the rules so the game accommodates the players.

Original Quill wrote:

gelico wrote:

I am in complete agreement with everything you have said, quill.  The sentence in red is the exact point I was making myself with regards to skill and ability of sports such as table tennis, snooker and archery which male and female gender would be considered as equals. Whereas the brute strength and muscle mass required for something like weight lifting or wrestling would mean that male and female gender are most certainly not equal.

You are right, the sports are categorised appropriately so therefore surely the rules for each participant should reflect each category, no?

Absolutely.  We either restructure the game, or we have different leagues.  In softball, we have already moved in the fences so that women can hit homeruns.  In wheelchair basketball, we have already changed the rules so that the disabled can dribble.  



I can't help but think that that was an unfortunate choice of words


We can't change sex, gender, color or disability...so change the rules so the game accommodates the players.

As for your last sentence,,,,,that's exactly what has been done with regards to the recent rule changes

and you callejd it homophobia

that's what I don't understand, quill. You understand the need for rule changes but then call it homophobia

It's common sense

gelico wrote:

Original Quill wrote:

Absolutely.  We either restructure the game, or we have different leagues.  In softball, we have already moved in the fences so that women can hit homeruns. In wheelchair basketball, we have already changed the rules so that the disabled can dribble.  


I can't help but think that that was an unfortunate choice of words  

We can't change sex, gender, color or disability...so change the rules so the game accommodates the players.

As for your last sentence,,,,,that's exactly what has been done with regards to the recent rule changes

and you callejd it homophobia

that's what I don't understand, quill.  You understand the need for rule changes but then call it homophobia

It's common sense

Near the last post of the first page of this thread, I said:

Original Quill wrote:Maybe the answer is to have separate games for the gay/trans, along the lines of the Paralympic Games for athletes with physical, mental and sensorial disabilities.

Then, in the last post of the first page, I said:

Original Quill wrote:So, you favor my proposal that an athletic league should be started that is specifically for gay and trans men?

I have been clear all along.  I don’t know which comment led you astray.  In the name of clarity, please point it out.

But, let me be clear again. Things that are given to us at birth, cannot be changed: skin color, sex, gender, are givens.  We might remake our bodies to make us change our appearance - as Michael Jackson did - but it is limited in what we can do.  We can’t change who we are: black, Asian, male, female, lesbian or gay-male, even though we might acquire tattoos, undergo rhinoplasty, or buttock lifts.

But the trans are already inwardly a different identity.  It has to do with agency: the sense of self, rather than what equipment you have between your legs, as tommy maintains.  People who equate body with identity, don’t understand the agency of a person.  They are not trying to acquire “tattoos” or “rhinoplasty”, but more to get their bodies to ‘catch-up’ with their identities.

What is not as hard and fast are the rules of a game in sports.  Those can be changed.  A game is totally creative…and it can be re-created.  Thus, it can be restructured.

Original Quill wrote:

gelico wrote:

As for your last sentence,,,,,that's exactly what has been done with regards to the recent rule changes

and you callejd it homophobia

that's what I don't understand, quill.  You understand the need for rule changes but then call it homophobia

It's common sense

Near the last post of the first page of this thread, I said:

Original Quill wrote:Maybe the answer is to have separate games for the gay/trans, along the lines of the Paralympic Games for athletes with physical, mental and sensorial disabilities.

Ah, must have missed this.  yes, I agree but not for gay only for trans.  You have the unfortunate habit of lumping the two together.  They are so so different....

Then, in the last post of the first page, I said:

Original Quill wrote:So, you favor my proposal that an athletic league should be started that is specifically for gay and trans men?

I have been clear all along.  I don’t know which comment led you astray.  In the name of clarity, please point it out.

But, let me be clear again. Things that are given to us at birth, cannot be changed: skin color, sex, gender, are givens.  We might remake our bodies to make us change our appearance - as Michael Jackson did - but it is limited in what we can do.  We can’t change who we are: black, Asian, male, female, lesbian or gay-male, even though we might acquire tattoos, undergo rhinoplasty, or buttock lifts.

But the trans are already inwardly a different identity.  It has to do with agency: the sense of self, rather than what equipment you have between your legs, as tommy maintains.  People who equate body with identity, don’t understand the agency of a person.  They are not trying to acquire “tattoos” or “rhinoplasty”, but more to get their bodies to ‘catch-up’ with their identities.

.

you seem to be totally unaware of how much you contradict yourself, quill

and all you have done is confirm everything Tommy has said

Males are biologically constructed differently (physically) from females so any sports competitions' rules and regulations should be based on the biological differences when said competition involves physical strength as opposed to skill, quickness, etc

I don't think we really disagree on that much really. I have to confess I haven't read the whole thread