Labour leader Keir Stammer can't answer the simple question of whether a woman has a penis or not...

by Tommy Monk Thu Mar 31, 2022 3:46 pm

First topic message reminder :

What a complete numpty!!!

lol!

by Ben Reilly Sat Apr 30, 2022 10:53 pm

eddie wrote:Well the simple answer is this:Women do not have penises.

And if they did, many men would not have sex with them.

Or am I missing something?

To me the thorny part of this issue is that there are some men who, despite being biologically male, feel as though they're in the wrong body and are, in their soul so to speak, actually female.

Perhaps they're going a bit far in actually asserting that they are indeed women. Maybe they should say, "Look, I know I've got a dong and all, but in my soul, I'm a woman." Maybe they're asking a bit too much if they insist on being called a woman if they're not actually biologically female.

For me, I don't care what anybody wants to call him or herself. I can't see how anybody has the right to tell somebody they can't call themselves whatever they want.

by Tommy Monk Sun May 01, 2022 12:50 pm

I agree that anyone can call themselves whatever they want... But they don't have the right to force anyone else to abide by their self proclamations.

by Original Quill Sun May 01, 2022 5:08 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:I agree that anyone can call themselves whatever they want... But they don't have the right to force anyone else to abide by their self proclamations.

Meh...their not hurting anyone. It's a free country. Twisted Evil

by Tommy Monk Sun May 01, 2022 5:39 pm

But they are quill... The men claiming to be women are trying to compete against real women in competitions... Plus they are trying to use female only spaces like toilets and changing rooms and female wards in hospitals... And wanting to be sent to women's prisons if facing custodial sentences.

There are numerous stories of these men then going on to sexually assault the women in these places.

by Original Quill Sun May 01, 2022 8:31 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:But they are quill... The men claiming to be women are trying to compete against real women in competitions...

Compete in competitions? Are you suggesting that the "real women" are at some sort of competitive disadvantage against the gays and/or trans at dances or balls?? That's silly.

Are "regular women" now a protected class, and need special status or affirmative action? Maybe 'winners' need to be distinguished from 'losers'. Maybe last year's champion football team needs to be disqualified, because they are recognized winners, and thus unfair competition.

Tommy Monk wrote:Plus they are trying to use female only spaces like toilets and changing rooms and female wards in hospitals... And wanting to be sent to women's prisons if facing custodial sentences. There are numerous stories of these men then going on to sexually assault the women in these places.

This is such an old story. It was much more plausible when the assumption was gays and trans are rapacious, and are after little boys. Why do you assume that all gay and trans are sexual predators? They're not...and they deserve the presumption of innocence just like the rest of us.

Or, are you claiming that actual criminals are disguising themselves as trans to gain access to women's facilities to commit rape and plunder? Why hold that against the innocent trans? Would you hold crimes against bank patrons, because the real bank robbers pretended to be common customers when they walked in?

Or, more likely, perhaps you are suggesting because they are trans they deserve to be treated as criminals anyway?

by Tommy Monk Mon May 02, 2022 2:13 pm

I'm just stating the fact that men are not women... And a man in a dress is no more a woman than a horse painted with black and white stripes is a zebra.

by Original Quill Mon May 02, 2022 3:35 pm

Well, it's a free country. If they want to be trans, they neither need nor seek your approval.

The world...its-a changing.

by Tommy Monk Mon May 02, 2022 5:02 pm

If they want to be treated the same as women then they need everyone's approval... And they have hardly anyone's approval!!!

And seeing as how women themselves are of the opinion that these men dressed up as women are not women... I think they need to start to realise it too!

by Original Quill Mon May 02, 2022 5:43 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:If they want to be treated the same as women then they need everyone's approval... And they have hardly anyone's approval!!!

They couldn't care less.

Tommy Monk wrote:And seeing as how women themselves are of the opinion that these men dressed up as women are not women... I think they need to start to realise it too!

Which women? The trans women themselves, who were assigned male at birth? Certainly not. Or do you mean the trans men, who were assigned female at birth?

Really, I doubt that if you polled all women, trans or no, you would get any particular persuasion. The category is to large and amorphous. Conservatives would probably be conservative on transgenders, while liberals would be accepting of it. And, as one site puts it:

Nat. Center for Trans. Equality wrote:Transgender people come from every region of the United States and around the world, from every racial and ethnic background, and from every faith community. Transgender people are your classmates, your coworkers, your neighbors, and your friends. With approximately 1.4 million transgender adults in the United States—and millions more around the world—chances are that you've met a transgender person, even if you don't know it.

https://transequality.org/issues/resources/frequently-asked-questions-about-transgender-people

by Tommy Monk Tue May 03, 2022 1:16 am

A man is not a woman!

by Original Quill Tue May 03, 2022 1:49 am

Tommy Monk wrote:A man is not a woman!

Some want to be, as do some women want to be men. Since modern society is blessed with the capability to transform them, why not grant them their wishes to be whomever they want? It's a free country, and frankly, it's none of our business.

by Tommy Monk Tue May 03, 2022 8:51 am

They are not transformed... They are just men in drag masquerading as women.

And most of the women who "transform" into men are still women with cervix and vagina and womb etc... They are not men .. they just try to dress and look like men... But are still women.

by Tommy Monk Tue May 03, 2022 8:54 am

I suppose you think this is all good too...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10776763/Boys-identify-girls-placed-female-dorms-David-Camerons-Big-Society-camp.html

The parents of the actual real girls are totally opposed to this!!!

by Vintage Tue May 03, 2022 4:47 pm

I think it becomes everyone's business when you have rogue men identifying as women and using that self identification to get into women only establishments and assault them. This has happened here with a man in prison for violence and assaults on women decided to self identify as a woman and by right of the law was moved to a female prison and went on to assault women there. Its not the only case. Its a shame there are a few bad apples that make things difficult for genuine people but surely this should be understood by the law and by trans women themselves - if they are thinking with a feminine brain.

by Original Quill Tue May 03, 2022 6:49 pm

Vintage wrote:I think it becomes everyone's business when you have rogue men identifying as women and using that self identification to get into women only establishments and assault them.

"Rogue" is defined as "corrupt' and "dishonest". https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/rogue I was hoping to keep this discussion factual; the only response to a value judgement is, 'I disagree'.

After a sex change, I wonder if those born a woman (or, for that matter, born a man), and exercise a change, don’t have a higher moral claim on the gender because they exercised choice, rather than go on chance. Those who have undergone a gender modification have voted…and in a democracy, voting is a good thing, innit?

Also, since it's a value judgment, perhaps we should judge by all values: who is a prostitute; who is a thief; who is an extortionist; etc., etc., etc. There are plenty of sins to go around. It’s what they do with the gender that counts.

Vintage wrote:This has happened here with a man in prison for violence and assaults on women decided to self identify as a woman and by right of the law was moved to a female prison and went on to assault women there. Its not the only case. Its a shame there are a few bad apples that make things difficult for genuine people but surely this should be understood by the law and by trans women themselves - if they are thinking with a feminine brain.

"A few bad apples that make things difficult for genuine people"... that frames it perfectly. Why, indeed, compound the crime of "violence and assaults", by penalizing the innocent person? The gender-changed individuals did no wrong? It's a shame indeed...in fact, in the US that would be unconstitutional as a violation of due process of law.

by Original Quill Tue May 03, 2022 7:01 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:They are not transformed... They are just men in drag masquerading as women.

And most of the women who "transform" into men are still women with cervix and vagina and womb etc... They are not men .. they just try to dress and look like men... But are still women.

Well, they were given the wrong equipment by the birth angel. Somebody made a mistake, and now they have to correct it for themselves. Fortunately, we have the ability...

Instead of condemning them, you should be helping them. What if they were given a defective heart, or were born blind? I can hear your uncharitable chant now: tsk, tsk...you were born that way, you should never change, you sightless pervert. May you bump into a thousand chairs!!!

by Tommy Monk Tue May 03, 2022 7:58 pm

No... I think the problem is in their minds...

But regardless of this... They are still physically and biologically the sex they are born with, as determined by their genetics and chromosomes... And of course the genitalia they have, which they were born with...

(Genitalia - Any of the organs of reproduction or generation, including, in the female, the vulva, clitoris, ovaries, uterine tubes, uterus, and vagina, and in the male, the penis, scrotum, testes, epididymides, deferent ducts, seminal vesicles, prostate, and bulbourethral glands.)

by Original Quill Tue May 03, 2022 9:47 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:No... I think the problem is in their minds...

Perhaps they do too. Only, it’s not really a ‘problem’, but an ‘anomaly’. The difference between ‘problem’ and ‘anomaly’ is a problem is a “a matter or situation regarded as unwelcome or harmful and needing to be dealt with and overcome,” while an anomaly is “something that deviates from what is standard, normal, or expected.” In other words, leave the negative out of it, and you've got a mere irregularity that needs adjustment.

Tommy Monk wrote:But regardless of this... They are still physically and biologically the sex they are born with, as determined by their genetics and chromosomes... And of course the genitalia they have, which they were born with...

(Genitalia - Any of the organs of reproduction or generation, including, in the female, the vulva, clitoris, ovaries, uterine tubes, uterus, and vagina, and in the male, the penis, scrotum, testes, epididymides, deferent ducts, seminal vesicles, prostate, and bulbourethral glands.)

Well, but if the organs are anomalous to their self-perception…maybe the problem is with the organs - the mind is not attuned to the body they were given. We don’t even know how to begin to change self-perception, and we could be doing more harm than good. Who do you believe? Your decisional agency, or your organs?

by Vintage Tue May 03, 2022 9:57 pm

Being blind or having a heart condition won't interfere with other people's rights. You don't see many people pretending to be blind or have a heart condition undiagnosed ie verified so that they can get into some institution and do their worst. I just think a psychological woman, never mind the physical attributes would understand how many biological women feel their status is being eroded with labels like 'people who menstruate or people who give birth, cis women etc.

by Original Quill Tue May 03, 2022 10:20 pm

Vintage wrote:Being blind or having a heart condition won't interfere with other people's rights. You don't see many people pretending to be blind or have a heart condition undiagnosed ie verified so that they can get into some institution and do their worst. I just think a psychological woman, never mind the physical attributes would understand how many biological women feel their status is being eroded with labels like 'people who menstruate or people who give birth, cis women etc.

Well, I don't think you see many people pretending to be the psychological gender they are not. It's too fundamental to your agency, to alter voluntarily. And, I sure don't think people want to "get into some institution". The last thing people want is institutionalization.

Let's not assume motives we can't prove. If a person wants to be gay or trans, I take them at their word. They want to be what they are in the mind, and not the organs that were given to them by mistake.

As far as interfering with other people's rights...that's societies problem. If society is going to take away rights arbitrarily, it's needs to change the rules of the game.

by Tommy Monk Wed May 04, 2022 12:33 am

Tommy Monk wrote:

I suppose you think this is all good too...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10776763/Boys-identify-girls-placed-female-dorms-David-Camerons-Big-Society-camp.html

The parents of the actual real girls are totally opposed to this!!!

by Original Quill Wed May 04, 2022 1:51 am

Tommy Monk wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:

I suppose you think this is all good too...

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10776763/Boys-identify-girls-placed-female-dorms-David-Camerons-Big-Society-camp.html

The parents of the actual real girls are totally opposed to this!!!

No, it just wasn't your most pressing post. You seem to be suggesting that all males are "snakes and snails and puppy-dog tails", while all females are "sugar and spice and everything nice". Or is it that - horrors - some little boy might see your lil girl in her knickers.

Do you assume that the males, regardless of gender-preference, are interested in assaulting little girls? Or would the girls be interested in the boys in the room? Either way, I think there's no danger...particularly when the boys show a preference for persons other than the girls in the first place.

by Vintage Wed May 04, 2022 10:14 pm

There are quite a number of instances as I mentioned above in the UK alone if it was someone you cared for finding herself in a bad situation with someone claiming to be a transwoman, I think your atittude would be entirely different. As for institution - you know exactly what I meant.

by Original Quill Thu May 05, 2022 1:00 am

Vintage wrote: There are quite a number of instances as I mentioned above in the UK alone if it was someone you cared for finding herself in a bad situation with someone claiming to be a transwoman, I think your atittude would be entirely different. As for institution - you know exactly what I meant.

Of course, we are always closer to our blood, or those whom we love. But we are speaking in the abstract, and in the abstract gays and trans have all the rights of anyone. You would expect the mothers and fathers of gays and trans to fight for their child's right to experience the Prom in their identity of choosing, too, wouldn't you? They might choose to be male or female, and if they were your kids you would back them, without hesitation. Twisted Evil

by Vintage Thu May 05, 2022 12:45 pm

I'm not talking about going to a prom, I don't see why you bring that up, I'm talking about segregated places for females being now open to males self identifying as females just to gain access, I've given you an example of a prison inmate doing just that, as the law stands anyone can self identify, the majority may mean no harm at all, I get that but there are always some who will take advantage of the situation, this is my problem with the whole thing. Imagine being a traumatised woman in a refuge and in walks a man, dressed as a woman maybe and identifying as a woman but still oviously male even in outward physiology, how do you think that woman would feel having been forced to leave her normal life for the security of an all female establishment. As someone already said few of us get all of what we want all of the time, life tends to be a series of compromises for everyone no one should be allowed to infringe on someone else's identity (in this case) for the cause of the great pc code. If a man thinks he's really a woman and wants to act and dress like one, up to him entirely but don't label biological women to make it all more acceptable and infringe on their hard earned place in sports, stay with male sports or create your own sports areas.

by Original Quill Thu May 05, 2022 5:39 pm

Vintage wrote:As someone already said few of us get all of what we want all of the time, life tends to be a series of compromises for everyone no one should be allowed to infringe on someone else's identity (in this case) for the cause of the great pc code. If a man thinks he's really a woman and wants to act and dress like one, up to him entirely but don't label biological women to make it all more acceptable and infringe on their hard earned place in sports, stay with male sports or create your own sports areas.

Who owns a metaphor? It is owned by whomever defines and uses it. You claim some sort of proprietary interest in the metaphor of 'woman', but it’s really just a word – available for anyone’s use, as long as they make clear how it is being used. I think it is clear in this case, even if we are not in agreement.

You’re just favoring one “identity” over another (yours vs. “someone else’s”). The reason you are doing that, I suspect, is you are against the “great pc code” itself. You’re against it because you tend toward conservatism, and you favor preserving the ‘old’ rather than the ‘up-and-coming’ (‘cause that’s what conservatives do). See, F.A. Hayek, Why I'm Not a Conservative (1960). https://press.uchicago.edu/books/excerpt/2011/hayek_constitution.html

But something comes up in the realm of the “up and coming” for a reason – some injustice or unfairness – and soon you are just favoring the ‘old’, vs injustice. When we fix a car, we take it up on the rack and take a wrench to it; when we fix an injustice, we have all sorts of people standing around saying, no, don't do it that way, or don't fix it at all!! - tom's mantra. See, Democracy in America, Volume 1, Part 2, Chapter 7: Tyranny of the Majority (1834).

The broken part is the injustice, not the new repair – it’s not the boy in the lady’s room, but the fact that we as a society don’t accommodate the needs of boys like him. You can either treat the injustice, or cover it up. However, be forewarned, if you choose to cover it up, it will keep returning. See, Wolin, Sheldon S., "Political Theory as a Vocation", The American Political Science Review (Dec., 1969), https://www.jstor.org/stable/1955072 [In which Sheldon Wolin applies the theory of Scientific Revolution of Professor Thomas Kuhn, to political causes and movements – exactly what we are discussing here. See also, F. Pajaras, The Structure of Scientific Revolution By Thomas Kuhn, fr. Philosopher's Web Magazine.]

by Tommy Monk Fri May 06, 2022 9:04 am

A man can only ever pretend to be a woman... And a woman can only ever pretend to be a man... A pretend woman is not a woman... A pretend man is not a man.

If you think otherwise then you are a lunatic!

by Original Quill Fri May 06, 2022 4:56 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:A man can only ever pretend to be a woman... And a woman can only ever pretend to be a man... A pretend woman is not a woman... A pretend man is not a man.

If you think otherwise then you are a lunatic!

1. In Shakespeare's time, men pretended to play women on stage. Perhaps they were lunatics?

2. Is a person with a birth defect pretending? Is he a lunatic because he says he can’t see…or hear? We are not talking about pretend. We are talking about real people, born men and/or women in perception, but given the wrong physical body. This mismatch creates a person with one mindset, but with the wrong physiology...just the inverse of what Vintage was working through (above): not the wrong mindset, but the wrong body.

One cannot change who one is; one can only change what one is...including, what you are born with. If you are born with a protuberate nose, surgeons can fix that. If you are born with no arms, physicians and therapists can compensate for that. If you are born with testicles instead of ovaries, doctors can alter that.

But no amount of surgery can alter who you are - your identity, your agency, your memory. It's not a choice. If you are born gay, it’s who you are. You might try to cover it up; you might try to wish it away. But only death can fix 'who' you are, and death is not so much fixing as simply removal. Better to change the body, than try to change the identity.

As far as Men's and Women's Rooms, or sports, or bicycles, or clothing, or whatever man choses to segregate...they are just conventions. They are man-made, and whatever man can make, man can unmake...or remake. That's just a matter of adjustment.

by Vintage Fri May 06, 2022 11:48 pm

In women's prison in the UK 1% of the population are transwomen, yet they are responsible for 5.6% of the sexual assaults, and that was before the case of 'Karen White' who was imprisoned for indecent assault, indecent exposure, gross indecency involving children, animal cruelty and dishonesty. While in prison this person decided to identify as a woman and was moved to a woman's prison where he committed two rapes, two sexual assaults and one offence of wounding all in two months.
He has been sentenced to more jail time presumably in a male prison and is said to be a significant risk to women and children in particular and to the public in general. The Ministry of Justice has apologised for allowing him to transfer to a women's prison, a lot of comfort to those he assaulted and raped.

by Original Quill Sat May 07, 2022 4:20 am

Vintage wrote:
In women's prison in the UK 1% of the population are transwomen, yet they are responsible for 5.6% of the sexual assaults, and that was before the case of 'Karen White' who was imprisoned for indecent assault, indecent exposure, gross indecency involving children, animal cruelty and dishonesty. While in prison this person decided to identify as a woman and was moved to a woman's prison where he committed two rapes, two sexual assaults and one offence of wounding all in two months.
He has been sentenced to more jail time presumably in a male prison and is said to be a significant risk to women and children in particular and to the public in general. The Ministry of Justice has apologised for allowing him to transfer to a women's prison, a lot of comfort to those he assaulted and raped.

Society is so unschooled on this issue, I'm surprised there aren't more such cases.

by Tommy Monk Sat May 07, 2022 12:53 pm

More waffle from Quill...

by Original Quill Fri May 13, 2022 4:39 pm

Planned Parenthood wrote:What do transgender and cisgender mean?

Most people who are assigned female at birth identify as girls or women, and most people who are assigned male at birth identify as boys or men. These people are cisgender (or cis).

Some people have a gender identity that doesn’t match the sex they were given at birth — for example, they were born with a vulva, vagina, and uterus, but they identify as male. These people are transgender (or trans). Transgender is the “T” in LGBTQ.

Trans can also include people who don’t identify with strict male/female gender roles. Other people who don’t identify as either male or female call themselves genderqueer. There are other gender identity terms and labels, but don’t use terms like transgendered, transvestite, tranny, or, he-she — they’re old-fashioned and can be hurtful. It’s always best to respect the words people use to describe themselves.

Intersex means you’re born with biological traits that are outside the strict male/female gender binary, whether it’s your anatomy, chromosomes, and/or hormones. Being intersex is not the same thing as being transgender.

Being intersex is often caused by one of many genetic or hormonal variations, but it isn’t a medical problem. It’s also more common than most people realize. For some people, it’s clear they’re intersex from birth. But many people don’t find out they’re intersex until they go through puberty, or even later. Learn more about being intersex during puberty.

by Tommy Monk Fri May 13, 2022 5:41 pm

Your sex is determined way before birth... Not something that is just "assigned" to you at birth...

"...biologically male individuals have one X and one Y chromosome (XY) while those who are biologically female have two X chromosomes..."

And there is no getting away from that!!!

by Original Quill Fri May 13, 2022 5:48 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Your sex is determined way before birth... Not something that is just "assigned" to you at birth...

"...biologically male individuals have one X and one Y chromosome (XY) while those who are biologically female have two X chromosomes..."

And there is no getting away from that!!!

Biology need not determine gender...witness all the exceptions. Labour leader Keir Stammer can't answer the simple question of whether a woman has a penis or not... - Page 4 2190311264

Labour leader Keir Stammer can't answer the simple question of whether a woman has a penis or not... - Page 4 2190311264

Your theories amount to diatribes.

by Tommy Monk Fri May 13, 2022 6:49 pm

Mental illness can present in numerous forms...

by Original Quill Fri May 13, 2022 8:53 pm

Mental illness does not enter the picture...except, possibly, yours. It is true that you are obsessed with your faith-based fixation of physical biology to gender, to an excessive degree. How do you feel about eye colour or pattern baldness?

Other cultures have adjusted to account for plural genders...to the degree that your cisgender fixation seems unusually excessive. The Roman Church hindered the advance of modern science by declaring a heresy anything that might conflict with orthodox religion. They included, among others, docetism, Montanism, adoptionism, Sabellianism, Arianism, Pelagianism, and gnosticism, as heresies.

Do you have a religious gospel that would account for your cisgender?

by Tommy Monk Sat May 14, 2022 1:52 pm

My views are not faith based... However... If you believe that a biological male who has grown from conception with male set of chromosomes and born a male, has somehow done so while having a completely separate female 'spirit' inside the male body... as you have previously argued that the person inside has been born into the wrong body etc... Then that is much more like YOU are advocating a faith based view where there is a spirit/soul that is independent from the physical body, or maybe you are more of the belief of reincarnation, as is believed in other religions ...?

And if you believe that there is an independent spirit/soul that exists from conception... Then surely you are also totally opposed to abortion too...!?

lol!

by Original Quill Sat May 14, 2022 5:30 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:My views are not faith based... However...If you believe that a biological male who has grown from conception with male set of chromosomes and born a male, has somehow done so while having a completely separate female 'spirit' inside the male body... as you have previously argued that the person inside has been born into the wrong body etc... Then that is much more like YOU are advocating a faith based view where there is a spirit/soul that is independent from the physical body, or maybe you are more of the belief of reincarnation, as is believed in other religions ...?

What does gender have to do with physical biology? You’ll do anything to avoid that answering that question. I am merely pointing out, YOU CAN'T PROVE IT! You can’t ‘prove’ that gender exists for reasons of biology; hence, by definition your reasoning is ‘faith-based’. It’s very much like a religion for you: you can’t explain it, so you put your faith in an omniscient, omnipotent, old belief. Oh, god connected gender for procreation. It was His raison d'être! He’s very proud of it.

Here’s another idea: Maybe god was more subtle…maybe He created multiple genders so society would be more tightly knit…a tighter, more complex weave, so-to-speak. You have boy/girl, but then you have other bonding options: boy/boy and girl/girl…and then those who are experimenting…and then…hey, bring those sheep over here, etc., etc. The possibilities are endless. Anything to draw folks in. It makes society more secure, more complex, and so stronger.

Then, almost as an afterthought, god created sexual breeding: And…Oh, BTW, set aside a pair of them to procreate and deliver live babies…that ‘seed’ method of germination isn’t working out too well…

Tommy Monk wrote:And if you believe that there is an independent spirit/soul that exists from conception... Then surely you are also totally opposed to abortion too...!?

I don’t have to believe anything, tom. I’m not the one who builds theories on faith. I say: Live, and Let Live.

As far as abortion is concerned, life begins at the point where an organism has agency, and seeks to interact with the world. You can’t interact with the world unless you are in it. Thus, my experience tells me that life begins at approximately the third trimester of fetus development. Abortion before that time is simply an indifferent, chemical process.

by Tommy Monk Sat May 14, 2022 6:11 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:My views are not faith based... However...If you believe that a biological male who has grown from conception with male set of chromosomes and born a male, has somehow done so while having a completely separate female 'spirit' inside the male body... as you have previously argued that the person inside has been born into the wrong body etc... Then that is much more like YOU are advocating a faith based view where there is a spirit/soul that is independent from the physical body, or maybe you are more of the belief of reincarnation, as is believed in other religions ...?

What does gender have to do with physical biology? You’ll do anything to avoid that answering that question. I am merely pointing out, YOU CAN'T PROVE IT! You can’t ‘prove’ that gender exists for reasons of biology; hence, by definition your reasoning is ‘faith-based’. It’s very much like a religion for you: you can’t explain it, so you put your faith in an omniscient, omnipotent, old belief. Oh, god connected gender for procreation. It was His raison d'être! He’s very proud of it.

Here’s another idea: Maybe god was more subtle…maybe He created multiple genders so society would be more tightly knit…a tighter, more complex weave, so-to-speak. You have boy/girl, but then you have other bonding options: boy/boy and girl/girl…and then those who are experimenting…and then…hey, bring those sheep over here, etc., etc. The possibilities are endless. Anything to draw folks in. It makes society more secure, more complex, and so stronger.

Then, almost as an afterthought, god created sexual breeding: And…Oh, BTW, set aside a pair of them to procreate and deliver live babies…that ‘seed’ method isn’t working out too well…

Tommy Monk wrote:And if you believe that there is an independent spirit/soul that exists from conception... Then surely you are also totally opposed to abortion too...!?

I don’t have to believe anything, tom. I’m not the one who builds theories on faith. I say: Live, and Let Live.

As far as abortion is concerned, life begins at the point where an organism has agency, and seeks to interact with the world. You can’t interact with the world unless you are in it. Thus, my experience tells me that life begins at approximately the third trimester of fetus development. Abortion before that time is simply an indifferent, chemical process.

Ooohhh!

Where's your handbag Quill...?

Looks like I touched another nerve there, with another conundrum you can't answer honestly without completely contradicting your position on things!!!

That's lefty "quantum thinking" for you... Where a lefty can hold complete belief in two totally opposing ideas at the same time, without any admission of contradiction in said ideas!!!

What a twat!!!

lol!

by Ben Reilly Sat May 14, 2022 10:26 pm

Who cares if some people feel like they're trapped in the wrong body and want to be referred to differently? Honestly, what the fuck diference does it make to anything? Anything at all?

Christ, people are so OBSESSED with this and it doesn't make any sense!

by Maddog Sat May 14, 2022 11:43 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Who cares if some people feel like they're trapped in the wrong body and want to be referred to differently? Honestly, what the fuck diference does it make to anything? Anything at all?

Christ, people are so OBSESSED with this and it doesn't make any sense!

Bill Maher discusses folks obsession with this topic quite a bit.

The obsession isn't doing the democrats any favors.

At least not in his opinion. It's one reason they can't destroy the Republicans with the orange fool running his mouth and acting the fool.

by Original Quill Sun May 15, 2022 2:48 am

Tommy Monk wrote:Ooohhh!

Where's your handbag Quill...?

Why? I'm not gay; I've got three daughters. But...are you trying to suggest that being gay is a bad thing? That's just plain homophobic.

Tommy Monk wrote:Looks like I touched another nerve there, with another conundrum you can't answer honestly without completely contradicting your position on things!!!

That's lefty "quantum thinking" for you... Where a lefty can hold complete belief in two totally opposing ideas at the same time, without any admission of contradiction in said ideas!!!

What a twat!!!

I'm satisfied that I've answered every question you have. But, this isn't about me, is it? You're the one who is claiming a fact, without justification. Your blustering is a deflection, because you don't have an answer for the (repeated) question: "What does gender have to do with physical biology?" Until you provide causal proof for that association, you are in the realm of faith-based belief.

Say hi to the bearded old man in the sky for me! cheers

You have no basis for your abortion claim, either. Whether abortion is evil, or should be against the law, depends on whether a germinating fetus is a life. Putting aside all of the differential hardships that befalls a young woman who gets pregnant - which misses young men completely - the legal transgression in abortion is in taking an alleged life. That, in turn, depends on whether a fetus is a life. In my opinion it is not, until it begins to consciously respond to it's environment. Consequently, I have no reservation about abortions in the first two trimesters.

Better luck next time. Laughing

by Tommy Monk Tue May 17, 2022 5:28 pm

I never said you were gay Quill...

So are you saying the mind is not a physical construct of the brain which is in turn a physical construct of the genetic make up of a person?

Are you saying that the mind is a separate spirit/soul that is placed inside a physical body...?

by Original Quill Tue May 17, 2022 7:38 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:So are you saying the mind is not a physical construct of the brain which is in turn a physical construct of the genetic make up of a person?

Are you saying that the mind is a separate spirit/soul that is placed inside a physical body...?

Well, I don’t have to go into ‘universal minds’ in order to say that the mind is much more complex than that. "Mind" may well be a physical construct of cerebralization. That still doesn’t mean we know enough to imply purpose.

by Vintage Tue May 17, 2022 9:08 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Who cares if some people feel like they're trapped in the wrong body and want to be referred to differently? Honestly, what the fuck diference does it make to anything? Anything at all?

Christ, people are so OBSESSED with this and it doesn't make any sense!

It makes no difference at all --- until it interferes with someone else's life, economic life, status and sometimes physical well being.

by Tommy Monk Wed May 18, 2022 1:09 am

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:So are you saying the mind is not a physical construct of the brain which is in turn a physical construct of the genetic make up of a person?

Are you saying that the mind is a separate spirit/soul that is placed inside a physical body...?

Well, I don’t have to go into ‘universal minds’ in order to say that the mind is much more complex than that. "Mind" may well be a physical construct of cerebralization. That still doesn’t mean we know enough to imply purpose.

But you have claimed that some people have been born in to the wrong bodies... By which you are claiming that the mind is not a physical construct of the brain which is in turn a physical construct of the genetic make up of a person... And in turn you are saying that the mind is a separate spirit/soul that is placed inside a physical body at some point and is a sort of inhabitant of the body...!?

Can you clarify exactly what you are claiming...?

lol!

by Original Quill Wed May 18, 2022 6:30 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Well, I don’t have to go into ‘universal minds’ in order to say that the mind is much more complex than that. "Mind" may well be a physical construct of cerebralization. That still doesn’t mean we know enough to imply purpose.

But you have claimed that some people have been born in to the wrong bodies... By which you are claiming that the mind is not a physical construct of the brain which is in turn a physical construct of the genetic make up of a person... And in turn you are saying that the mind is a separate spirit/soul that is placed inside a physical body at some point and is a sort of inhabitant of the body...!?

Can you clarify exactly what you are claiming...?

You keep referring to 'right and wrong', when, as Friedrich Nietzsche said, we are Beyond Good and Evil (1886). Use more descriptive words, like concordant, or conflicting, or harmonious to describe a value-neutral situation.

Good and Evil are words that apply to purpose. There is no purpose to acts of Nature. Nature cannot be actually personified. There is either chance and/or necessity. Jacques Monod, Le Hasard et la Nécessité (1970). As Darwin said in the The Origin of Species (1869), it either works, in which case it is selected, or it doesn't, in which case it is rejected.

What is disharmonious to our sense of equality (to gay and transexuals) is the network of our society, and not the construct of our minds. We have created a social weave that is compatible with a binary sexuality, and rejects any other form of sexuality. It is the social that needs to change, not the people - who, after all, were born that way.

What I have said – to use your language – is that the “physical construct” of mind is suitable, but the content that we as a society put into that physical construct has need of adjustment. The mind qua values, is not fixed, but malleable, and capable of change through understanding. Like a projector to a film, the machinery is fit, but the content that we put into it needs tuning to conform to our modern values.

by Tommy Monk Thu May 19, 2022 3:09 am

No... I asked you to clarify a point of interest... So please stop waffling and answer the question...!!!???

by Original Quill Thu May 19, 2022 4:28 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:No... I asked you to clarify a point of interest... So please stop waffling and answer the question...!!!???

Your premise was all wrong...so I clarified! You limited the challenge to "the mind" being a "physical construct", when all I said was that the mind is predominately content.

However, that isn't to say that there are not predispositions - permanent reactions, such as the autonomic nervous system, a component of the peripheral nervous system that regulates involuntary physiologic processes including heart rate, blood pressure, respiration, digestion, and sexual arousal.

We are just beginning to understand how the autonomic nervous system works – the field of medicine only got serious 150-years ago - but I do know the scientific method, and you haven’t achieved it. Cisgender is not a proven conclusion – far from it. There are societies with plural genders, as well as examples in the animal kingdom.

In the meantime, society might adjust its mores to be a little less intolerant.

by Tommy Monk Thu May 19, 2022 5:05 pm

More waffle... Yawn...!

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