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British firefighters deployed as wildfires rage in Greece

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Post by Ben Reilly Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:22 am

First topic message reminder :

At least 400 wildfires are raging across the country, which have killed one and injured 20 so far

Helena Smith in Athens and Jedidajah Otte
Sat 7 Aug 2021 20.01 BST

British firefighters are to be sent to Greece this weekend to lend their support in the battle against wildfires that have spiralled out of control over the past few days.

Teams from Merseyside, Lancashire, south Wales, London and the West Midlands fire services are due to fly out to Athens this weekend, while France said it would provide a further three aircraft and 80 firefighters to join the hundreds that had already been sent.

More than 400 wildfires have broken out across Greece in the last 24 hours, with the island of Evia and areas of the Peloponnese region particularly badly affected.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/07/uk-sends-firefighters-to-greece-to-help-the-battle-against-wildfires

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Post by Original Quill Sun Aug 15, 2021 3:40 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:
eddie wrote:

Where do you get this information from?

Wind is used to produce electricity using the kinetic energy created by air in motion. This is transformed into electrical energy using wind turbines or wind energy conversion systems.

That doesn't answer Ed's question.

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Post by Tommy Monk Sun Aug 15, 2021 5:49 pm





I've already answered...


But here it is again for quill...


Physics.


My theory above is from my own thoughts and in keeping with my understanding of physics... And it appears that I am not alone in this thinking... I found this below...




Wind turbines generate electricity but also alter the atmospheric flow," says first author Lee Miller. "Those effects redistribute heat and moisture in the atmosphere, which impacts climate....

More than ten previous studies have now observed local warming caused by US wind farms.


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181004112553.htm




And if you do a bit of research, you will find that there has been large increases in wind farm turbines in the countries/region in recent years that are currently seeing these increased temperatures and wildfires...

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Post by Original Quill Sun Aug 15, 2021 9:17 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

I've already answered...

But here it is again for quill...

Physics.

My theory above is from my own thoughts...

So you made it up?

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Post by Tommy Monk Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:13 pm




I put forward a theory based on physics...


Then I posted some evidence and corroborated it.


If you want to portray that as being something I just 'made up'... Then that is up to you...



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Post by Original Quill Mon Aug 16, 2021 2:48 am

Tommy Monk wrote:I put forward a theory based on physics...

Then I posted some evidence and corroborated it.

If you want to portray that as being something I just 'made up'... Then that is up to you...

You haven't substantiated it.

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Post by Tommy Monk Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:27 am




Yes I did.


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Post by Tommy Monk Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:52 am




Did you not read this...?



" ..Wind turbines generate electricity but also alter the atmospheric flow," says first author Lee Miller. "Those effects redistribute heat and moisture in the atmosphere, which impacts climate..."

"...More than ten previous studies have now observed local warming caused by US wind farms..."


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181004112553.htm



And...


"Wind is used to produce electricity using the kinetic energy created by air in motion. This is transformed into electrical energy using wind turbines or wind energy conversion systems."




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Post by Original Quill Mon Aug 16, 2021 3:52 pm

tommy wrote:"Wind is used to produce electricity using the kinetic energy created by air in motion. This is transformed into electrical energy using wind turbines or wind energy conversion systems."

Of course. We've known that since the invention of flight: wind in motion over a curved surface is what creates lift (wings), or pull (propellers), and can create airflow. And since the creation of Mills we’ve known that dams alter the flow of water, which can turn hydroelectric generators.

But burning fossil fuels creates atmospheric pollution, which in turn creates changes in climate…hence the difference between dirty energy and clean energy.

We must look to clean energy to motivate us in the future.

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Post by Tommy Monk Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:23 pm





So now you agree with me that using the kinetic energy from wind and transfering it into mechanical energy to produce electrical energy, actually reduces and changes the natural wind flow in these areas and beyond...?



As is stated here...


" ..Wind turbines generate electricity but also alter the atmospheric flow," says first author Lee Miller. "Those effects redistribute heat and moisture in the atmosphere, which impacts climate..."


And can actually increase local temperatures, as is stated here...?


"...More than ten previous studies have now observed local warming caused by US wind farms..."


?



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Post by Original Quill Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:44 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:So now you agree with me that using the kinetic energy from wind and transfering it into mechanical energy to produce electrical energy, actually reduces and changes the natural wind flow in these areas and beyond...?

As is stated here...

" ..Wind turbines generate electricity but also alter the atmospheric flow," says first author Lee Miller. "Those effects redistribute heat and moisture in the atmosphere, which impacts climate..."

And can actually increase local temperatures, as is stated here...?

"...More than ten previous studies have now observed local warming caused by US wind farms..."?

I agree it's not a problem. Use of an electric motor also causes local warming, but it dissipates and does not alter the chemical composition of the atmosphere.

The key word there is "local". Local warming does not noticeably disturb the atmosphere. Massive amounts of CO2 alter the chemical composition of the atmosphere, and that’s what creates climate change.

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Post by Tommy Monk Mon Aug 16, 2021 4:53 pm



A weakened natural wind flow in one area means that the heat there is not carried away as much by what would have been the natural wind flow otherwise seen... also other stronger air currents can be somewhat drawn in from other areas, like more hotter air being drawn in from further south, compounding the increased heatwave temperatures...


Which explains the much higher than usual hotter temperatures in the Mediterranean countries in OP...


Every action has an equal and opposite reaction...



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Post by Original Quill Mon Aug 16, 2021 5:16 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:A weakened natural wind flow in one area means that other air currents are drawn in from other areas...

In the Mediterranean, this explains the hotter air being drawn in from further south...

Which explains the much higher than usual hotter temperatures...

Every action has an opposite and equal reaction...

Yes, Chaos theory. I know. See, James Gleick. Chaos: Making a New Science (1987). The earth is a system designed to accommodate, indeed incorporate those changes. But remember, the earth is a closed ecosystem. When variances go beyond tolerable limits, it changes things.

The release of CO2 has reached the limits of the earth's ability to accommodate, and thus climate change is happening.

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Post by Tommy Monk Mon Aug 16, 2021 10:17 pm





Waffle...



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Post by Original Quill Mon Aug 16, 2021 11:51 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Waffle...

It's remote, but remember you brought it up with your "weakened winds" theory. I always try to give you the benefit of the doubt, tom...but I don't think it's significant in this case.

British firefighters deployed as wildfires rage in Greece - Page 2 2190311264

The problem with carbon gases in the atmosphere is not weak winds or an occasional heavy monsoon season; it is that it alters the lens through which the sunlight must travel, and affects us globally.

That, in turn, creates climate change. We are not talking about 'weakened winds' or anything as trivial as that. We are talking about global heat patterns, fertile lands turning into deserts, and melting polar ice.


Last edited by Original Quill on Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:28 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Tommy Monk Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:27 am




You bellend!!!



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Post by Original Quill Tue Aug 17, 2021 12:31 am

Haha...stuck for an answer, are ya? You're just wrong. Mad

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Post by Tommy Monk Tue Aug 17, 2021 2:34 pm




No, not stuck for anything... Just bored of you and your waffle...



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Post by Original Quill Tue Aug 17, 2021 4:22 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:No, not stuck for anything... Just bored of you and your waffle...

Well, go away then. I proved my point in my first couple of posts. I'm only hanging around because you seem to need a little extra help. Rolling Eyes

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Post by Tommy Monk Wed Aug 18, 2021 1:08 pm




I made my point and gave some evidence to corroborate it.


You can twist and turn all you like, but I won't be listening...






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Post by Original Quill Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:33 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:I made my point and gave some evidence to corroborate it.

You can twist and turn all you like, but I won't be listening...

So, I have answered your point and so-called evidence, and you have no more need for help.  Glad to have been of service.  Laughing

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Post by Tommy Monk Wed Aug 18, 2021 4:43 pm




No... You have waffled about something else that I was not talking about...



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Post by Original Quill Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:03 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:No... You have waffled about something else that I was not talking about...

You should learn to stick to the point. Twisted Evil

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Post by Tommy Monk Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:10 pm





I was sticking to my point... You however, were waffling about something else...



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Post by Original Quill Wed Aug 18, 2021 5:17 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:I was sticking to my point... You however, were waffling about something else...

I'm a little tired of your nonsense. If you have no more points or evidence, why don't you STFU, and save us all the boredom.

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Post by Tommy Monk Wed Aug 18, 2021 6:11 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:I was sticking to my point... You however, were waffling about something else...

I'm a little tired of your nonsense. If you have no more points or evidence, why don't you STFU, and save us all the boredom.


I posted a theory of mine, based on my understanding of the relevant principles of physics, then Eddie asked me to elaborate...


So I posted some evidence/explanation... And I've been trying to stick to these points through your subsequent waffling...






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Post by Ben Reilly Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:09 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:


No, they don't force air to pass around them as big buildings do, they take the energy out of the wind currents as they are turned by the wind...


Thus the wind will be weaker and have less pressure in these areas...



What do you think takes more energy out of the wind, something that it can pass through relatively unimpeded, such as a fan blade, or something it has to go around, like a wall?

Obviously wind turbine blades offer far less resistance to wind than buildings do. Even trees take more energy out of the wind than turbines do.

As far as countries having more turbines also seeing more heat and wildfires, that's not causation, that's correlation.

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Post by Ben Reilly Wed Aug 18, 2021 9:10 pm

A turbine blade is something that is designed to get out of the way when the wind blows on it -- that's why they move. Something that moves when the wind hits it takes far less power from the wind than something that doesn't move when the wind hits it.

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Post by Tommy Monk Thu Aug 19, 2021 1:46 pm



You are forgetting the large immovable structure that the turbine blades are attached on to... And the huge big dynamo inside that the blades have to turn...



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Post by Original Quill Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:24 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:You are forgetting the large immovable structure that the turbine blades are attached on to... And the huge big dynamo inside that the blades have to turn...

Those are negligible, and are designed to get out of the way of wind by a system of long, thin shafts and gears (a shaft and a series of gears - a gearbox - that speed up the rotation and allow for a physically smaller generator) that take all the action on or underground.  

https://www.energy.gov/eere/wind/animation-how-wind-turbine-works

https://www.energy.gov/eere/wind/how-do-wind-turbines-work

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Post by Tommy Monk Thu Aug 19, 2021 3:46 pm




They don't 'get out of the way of the wind'... They are turned by the wind... And this still requires force... Taking energy out of the wind and turning it into mechanical energy and electrical energy.


I've already made this clear in previous posts... But it seems some here still cannot grasp the concept...



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Post by Original Quill Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:02 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:They don't 'get out of the way of the wind'... They are turned by the wind... And this still requires force... Taking energy out of the wind and turning it into mechanical energy and electrical energy.

I've already made this clear in previous posts... But it seems some here still cannot grasp the concept...

Now your talking about the fans. Before you were talking about the superstructure ("the large immovable structure that the turbine blades are attached on to..."). That is but a thin shaft.

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Post by Tommy Monk Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:14 pm




Oh dear...



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Post by Original Quill Thu Aug 19, 2021 4:21 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Oh dear...

Indeed.  The arguments against clean energy sources are all vacuous.  That's why they call them 'clean' - no real down side to them.

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Tommy Monk Thu Aug 19, 2021 10:18 pm




If you say so...



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Post by Original Quill Fri Aug 20, 2021 2:23 am

Twisted Evil I appreciate your candor.

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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