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British firefighters deployed as wildfires rage in Greece

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Post by Ben Reilly Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:22 am

At least 400 wildfires are raging across the country, which have killed one and injured 20 so far

Helena Smith in Athens and Jedidajah Otte
Sat 7 Aug 2021 20.01 BST

British firefighters are to be sent to Greece this weekend to lend their support in the battle against wildfires that have spiralled out of control over the past few days.

Teams from Merseyside, Lancashire, south Wales, London and the West Midlands fire services are due to fly out to Athens this weekend, while France said it would provide a further three aircraft and 80 firefighters to join the hundreds that had already been sent.

More than 400 wildfires have broken out across Greece in the last 24 hours, with the island of Evia and areas of the Peloponnese region particularly badly affected.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/07/uk-sends-firefighters-to-greece-to-help-the-battle-against-wildfires

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Post by eddie Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:28 am

First Turkey, now Greece!

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Post by Syl Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:44 am

There are some horrendous live videos on the news....the fires are terrifying.

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Post by Ben Reilly Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:47 am

I wonder why Europe is getting so hot and dry lately?

British firefighters deployed as wildfires rage in Greece 1f600

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Post by eddie Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:48 am

Syl wrote:There are some horrendous live videos on the news....the fires are terrifying.

I spent a fair bit of time in Greece in my twenties abc locals were always worried about glass bottles, for example, being left in bushes or grassy areas as it got hot enough that the glass could start fires.

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Post by Syl Sun Aug 08, 2021 12:58 am

eddie wrote:
Syl wrote:There are some horrendous live videos on the news....the fires are terrifying.

I spent a fair bit of time in Greece in my twenties abc locals were always worried about glass bottles, for example, being left in bushes or grassy areas as it got hot enough that the glass could start fires.

It's so dry and arid there, easy for a fire to start, and spread, uncontrolably as has happened.
Even here a couple of years ago when we had a dry spell  we had out of control fires in a couple of areas round Manchester....and normally we get loads of rain.

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Post by eddie Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:11 am

Our country is lucky in that respect, we don’t get many harsh or dangerous things happen to us....apart from flooding.

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Post by Syl Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:16 pm

eddie wrote:Our country is lucky in that respect, we don’t get many harsh or dangerous things happen to us....apart from flooding.

True, we are lucky. x

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Post by HoratioTarr Sun Aug 08, 2021 1:39 pm

It's my bet someone started the fires.
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Post by Original Quill Sun Aug 08, 2021 4:10 pm

Syl wrote:
eddie wrote:Our country is lucky in that respect, we don’t get many harsh or dangerous things happen to us....apart from flooding.

True, we are lucky. x

The point about change is that everything is changing. You can no longer depend upon "we don’t get many harsh or dangerous things happen to us", as that is what is changing! Twisted Evil

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Post by Syl Sun Aug 08, 2021 4:39 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:

True, we are lucky. x

The point about change is that everything is changing.  You can no longer depend upon "we don’t get many harsh or dangerous things happen to us", as that is what is changing!  Twisted Evil

Yes, but many of the fires and floods that some are experiencing now is more down to localised human greed and error  as it is to global warming.

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Post by Original Quill Sun Aug 08, 2021 5:30 pm

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

The point about change is that everything is changing.  You can no longer depend upon "we don’t get many harsh or dangerous things happen to us", as that is what is changing!  Twisted Evil

Yes, but many of the fires and floods that some are experiencing now is more down to localised human greed and error  as it is to global warming.

It's bigger than that.  It's global warming.  Look at our plight: the eastern Pacific begins to warm up, weather patterns change, rain doesn't fall, once fertile lands turn into coastal deserts.  Without moisture things dry up, and we have these vast firestorms.  One rainfall would put out a single fire; yet these fires grow and grow.  This last Dixie fire in California has grown to 110 sq. miles (413,765 acres).  One rainfall would put it all out...and it never comes.

Why?  Because we are coastal desert now.  The climate has changed.  HT is right: it's the human hand that starts these fires ("It's my bet someone started the fires.").  The hand is that of the oil companies.

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Post by Syl Sun Aug 08, 2021 5:45 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:

Yes, but many of the fires and floods that some are experiencing now is more down to localised human greed and error  as it is to global warming.

It's bigger than that.  It's global warming.  Look at our plight: the eastern Pacific begins to warm up, weather patterns change, rain doesn't fall, once fertile lands turn into coastal deserts.  Without moisture things dry up, and we have these vast firestorms.  One rainfall would put out a single fire; yet these fires grow and grow.  This last Dixie fire in California has grown to 110 sq. miles (413,765 acres).  One rainfall would put it all out...and it never comes.

Why?  Because we are coastal desert now.  The climate has changed.  HT is right: it's the human hand that starts these fires.  The hand is that of the oil companies.

Many of the causes of these disastesr are closer to home.
Leaving a barbecue abandoned in an arid area..a lit cigarette tossed carelessly aside, a deliberate act of arson, one lone idiot can start a fire that rages for days, as happened here a couple of years ago in the peaty hills around Saddleworth.

Building housing estates or motorways on flood plains is one of the causes of floods rising throughout the UK in recent years...all these things, along with global warming of course, add to the reasons of fires and floods becoming almost the norm now in the developed world.

It will be interesting to see how the fires started in Greece.

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Post by Original Quill Sun Aug 08, 2021 6:24 pm

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

It's bigger than that.  It's global warming.  Look at our plight: the eastern Pacific begins to warm up, weather patterns change, rain doesn't fall, once fertile lands turn into coastal deserts.  Without moisture things dry up, and we have these vast firestorms.  One rainfall would put out a single fire; yet these fires grow and grow.  This last Dixie fire in California has grown to 110 sq. miles (413,765 acres).  One rainfall would put it all out...and it never comes.

Why?  Because we are coastal desert now.  The climate has changed.  HT is right: it's the human hand that starts these fires.  The hand is that of the oil companies.

Many of the causes of these  disastesr are closer to home.
Leaving a barbecue abandoned in an arid area..a lit cigarette tossed carelessly aside, a deliberate act of arson, one lone idiot can start a fire that rages for days, as happened here a couple of years ago in the peaty hills around Saddleworth.

The barbecue was left hot in a 'dried' area. A lit cigarette was tossed upon 'dry' weeds. An arson lit a 'dried-up bush'. The "lone idiot" cannot start a fire that goes on for 110-sq. miles, unless some bigger change has occurred.

That is climate change. Climate change occurs in the atmosphere. Only pollution can change the entire atmosphere. Pollution is caused by burning fossil fuels, the kind that oil companies market. If you're looking for who tipped over the barbecue, you are looking for small potatoes. As they say in the south, they's bigger fish to fry.

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Post by Tommy Monk Mon Aug 09, 2021 10:33 am




We have got back to what is more the long term normal temps after coming out of the 700 year long cool period known as the little ice age.


Many plant species actually require fires so as they can reproduce and survive...






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Post by Syl Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:19 am

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:

Many of the causes of these  disastesr are closer to home.
Leaving a barbecue abandoned in an arid area..a lit cigarette tossed carelessly aside, a deliberate act of arson, one lone idiot can start a fire that rages for days, as happened here a couple of years ago in the peaty hills around Saddleworth.

The barbecue was left hot in a 'dried' area.  A lit cigarette was tossed upon 'dry' weeds.  An arson lit a 'dried-up bush'.  The "lone idiot" cannot start a fire that goes on for 110-sq. miles, unless some bigger change has occurred.

That is climate change.  Climate change occurs in the atmosphere.  Only pollution can change the entire atmosphere.  Pollution is caused by burning fossil fuels, the kind that oil companies market.  If you're looking for who tipped over the barbecue, you are looking for small potatoes.  As they say in the south, they's bigger fish to fry.

I am certainly not denying climate change and global warming Quill...the most extensive study has just been released today, and it doesn't look good.

I do think however that most of us, small potatoes though we may be, pass the buck and dont try to do our own bit to help.

https://www.thenews.com.pk/latest/875698-landmark-ipcc-report-says-global-warming-limit-to-be-hit-by-2030

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Post by Original Quill Mon Aug 09, 2021 3:24 pm

Syl wrote:I do think however that most of us, small potatoes though we may be, pass the buck and dont try to do our own bit to help.

Agreed. Particularly the corporate world.

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Post by Syl Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:11 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:I do think however that most of us, small potatoes though we may be, pass the buck and dont try to do our own bit to help.

Agreed.  Particularly the corporate world.

Everyone can do their bit, plant trees, don't use cars all the time if you dont need to, limit air travel, limit waste, recycle what you have, stop buying new when old will do....every little helps.

I have to say I dont always follow my own advice, but I have planted and looked after my  trees. Cool

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Post by Original Quill Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:31 pm

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Agreed.  Particularly the corporate world.

Everyone can do their bit, plant trees, don't use cars al the time if you dont need to, limit air travel, limit waste, recycle what you have, stop buying new when old will do....every little helps.

I say the corporate world because they do things in bigger chunks. Corporations can do more damage, but they can also do more good, when they turn their minds to it. Forestry industries, for example, can plant many, many trees, and they help themselves as well as the ecology.

Automobile manufacturers are turning away from fossil fuels, and toward electricity (although how drivers will 'fill-up' and who will pay for it, remains to be seen). Electric powered automobiles may clean up the spread of pollution, but fossil fuel is still the most prevalent way to produce bulk electricity - whence the cars get their fuel. And let's not get into nuclear produced electricity, in the wake of Chernobyl and Fukushima.

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Post by Syl Mon Aug 09, 2021 4:41 pm

I have posted this before, A different perspective into how the way we treat this planet and life here is ruinous.
I think it's fitting to post it again in this thread.


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Post by HoratioTarr Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:16 pm

Syl wrote:I have posted this before, A different perspective into how the way we treat this planet and life here is ruinous.
I think it's fitting to post it again in this thread.


It's not like this a new thing. We've been abusing the planet and animals since we first got up on two legs.
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Post by Vintage Mon Aug 09, 2021 9:51 pm

Being a child of the 50's and not exactly well off, I like many of my contemporaries grew up on recycling, repairing, re-using and hand me down clothes. We had drawers for wrapping paper and string, no nail or screw was thrown away, jumpers and cardigans were unpicked and knitted up into a new incarnation, everything was repurposed I think the term is these days. I still try to keep up the habit as much as I can consequently my house is full of stuff which might and does come in useful.

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Post by Syl Mon Aug 09, 2021 11:57 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:
Syl wrote:I have posted this before, A different perspective into how the way we treat this planet and life here is ruinous.
I think it's fitting to post it again in this thread.


It's not like this a new thing.    We've been abusing the planet and animals since we first got up on two legs.  

Sadly, yes.

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Post by Tommy Monk Tue Aug 10, 2021 1:49 pm





It's not a new thing to have some wildfires in the Mediterranean countries and flooding in Germany.



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Post by Fred Moletrousers Tue Aug 10, 2021 8:30 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:



It's not a new thing to have some wildfires in the Mediterranean countries and flooding in Germany.


The problem is not in the occurrence, but the extent.
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Post by Tommy Monk Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:25 pm




Wildfires in the Mediterranean areas making the news at the moment are a very regular occurrence and the extent of these currently being seen, is not new either.



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Post by Original Quill Tue Aug 10, 2021 9:38 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Wildfires in the Mediterranean areas making the news at the moment are a very regular occurrence and the extent of these currently being seen, is not new either.

I lived in Greece and I don't remember anything like these fires.

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Post by Syl Tue Aug 10, 2021 11:04 pm

Firefighters have said the fires are the worse they have ever seen.

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Post by Tommy Monk Wed Aug 11, 2021 11:58 am





Might be the worst THEY have seen... But that does not been they are the worst that have ever been...



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Post by Original Quill Wed Aug 11, 2021 3:23 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Might be the worst THEY have seen... But that does not been they are the worst that have ever been...

Nah...denial won't work this time.  The world has never seen firestorms of this magnitude in this part of the world.  There will be investigations as to why, but all bets are that - like western North America - it leads back to climate change.

Twisted Evil

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Post by HoratioTarr Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:12 pm

On the subject of 'Global Warming' take a gander at this screenshot  I took this from Flight Radar 24, a website that tracks all the aircraft in the world.   The yellow are planes.  Thousands upon thousands of them every hour of the day all over the world.    You mean to tell me that these planes are not affecting the planet?   What use is all this talk of cutting down on energy, using the right lightbulbs, banning wood burning stoves and gas boilers, when this is belching out 24/7 all over the fucking planet!

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Post by HoratioTarr Wed Aug 11, 2021 4:17 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:Might be the worst THEY have seen... But that does not been they are the worst that have ever been...

Nah...denial won't work this time.  The world has never seen firestorms of this magnitude in this part of the world.  There will be investigations as to why, but all bets are that - like western North America - it leads back to climate change.

Twisted Evil

What's to say that years ago, people had more respect and were less likely to start fires like this deliberately? We had bad fires here in Manchester on the moors, deliberately set by idiots who have no concept of the damage and death to wild life, who don't care, who'll do anything for that Tik Tok video, or who just think it's a laugh to destroy.
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Post by Original Quill Wed Aug 11, 2021 5:29 pm

Regardless of where a fire starts, and who starts it, climate conditions create the perfect environment for firestorms of this magnitude.  Lack of rain creates dry conditions.  Dry conditions mean dry vegetation lying about.  Dried-up vegetation lying about means fuel for fire.

It could be a cigarette carelessly tossed, or a power line that was negligently left to deteriorate...but when conditions are ripe for a firestorm, it's going to happen regardless of source.

A lot of things might be associated with a fire's origins, but the fire's extent goes back to a lack of atmospheric moisture.  In turn, that leads back to an excess of carbon dioxide (CO2), a greenhouse gas, in the atmosphere.  A rise in CO2 means reduced, and even a total lack of precipitation.

http://www.earthtimes.org/climate/cut-co2-rains-flow/597/

https://scied.ucar.edu/learning-zone/climate-change-impacts/water-cycle-climate-change

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40641-018-0103-4

CO2 comes from excessive burning of fossil fuels - as in petroleum products.  We have been careless as a worldwide culture, and we now pay the consequences.  Climate change does not mean a mere rise in cloudy beach days during the summer.  Its effects are extensive, and threaten the very life we live.

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Post by HoratioTarr Thu Aug 12, 2021 8:35 am

Original Quill wrote:Regardless of where a fire starts, and who starts it, climate conditions create the perfect environment for firestorms of this magnitude.  Lack of rain creates dry conditions.  Dry conditions mean dry vegetation lying about.  Dried-up vegetation lying about means fuel for fire.

It could be a cigarette carelessly tossed, or a power line that was negligently left to deteriorate...but when conditions are ripe for a firestorm, it's going to happen regardless of source.

A lot of things might be associated with a fire's origins, but the fire's extent goes back to a lack of atmospheric moisture.  In turn, that leads back to an excess of carbon dioxide (CO2), a greenhouse gas, in the atmosphere.  A rise in CO2 means reduced, and even a total lack of precipitation.

http://www.earthtimes.org/climate/cut-co2-rains-flow/597/

https://scied.ucar.edu/learning-zone/climate-change-impacts/water-cycle-climate-change

https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s40641-018-0103-4


CO2 comes from excessive burning of fossil fuels - as in petroleum products.  We have been careless as a worldwide culture, and we now pay the consequences.  Climate change does not mean a mere rise in cloudy beach days during the summer.  Its effects are extensive, and threaten the very life we live.

It's always been dry in the African bush. How come there's no wildfires running rampant there?
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Post by Tommy Monk Thu Aug 12, 2021 11:49 am


It's probably climate change activists starting the fires just so they can point and claim it's all down to climate change...




Last edited by Tommy Monk on Fri Aug 13, 2021 9:53 am; edited 1 time in total

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Post by Original Quill Thu Aug 12, 2021 4:04 pm

HoratioTarr wrote:It's always been dry in the African bush.  How come there's no wildfires running rampant there?  

We were talking about Europe, and in particular the firestorms approaching Athens.  Indeed, this particular section pertains to continental Europe.  But we can talk about Africa as well, since global climate change is a worldwide event.

Initially, what do you mean by the "African Bush".  "The bush" is a term mostly used in the English vernacular of Australia and New Zealand, where it is largely synonymous with backwoods or hinterland, referring to a natural undeveloped area.  The backwoods or hinterland of Africa are vast, and not always dry.

Climate change will increasingly impact Africa due to many factors. These impacts are already being felt and will increase in magnitude if action is not taken to reduce global carbon emissions. The impacts include higher temperatures, drought, changing rainfall patterns, and increased climate variability...precisely the conditions we are seeing in western North America.  The recent drought in many African countries, which has been linked to climate change, adversely affected both energy security and economic growth across the continent.

With increasing population and corresponding energy demand, energy security must be addressed because energy is crucial for sustainable development. Climate change has affected energy sectors in Africa as many countries depend on hydropower generation. Decreasing rainfall levels and droughts have resulted in lower water levels in dams with adverse impacts on hydropower generation. This has resulted in low electrical energy production, high cost of electricity and power outages or load-shedding in some African countries that depend on hydroelectric power generation. Disruptions in hydropower generation have negatively affected various sectors in countries such as Ghana, Uganda, Kenya, and Tanzania.

Climate change, and resulting increased temperatures, storms, droughts, and rising sea levels, will affect the incidence and distribution of infectious disease across the globe.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_in_Africa

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Post by eddie Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:14 pm

Is America one of the worst nations that contribute to climate change? I’d also say China is a pretty big contributor.

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Post by Original Quill Fri Aug 13, 2021 10:52 pm

eddie wrote:Is America one of the worst nations that contribute to climate change? I’d also say China is a pretty big contributor.

Also, Japan, India, Korea, SE Asia...and soon, African states. Almost any nation that is clamoring to achieve industrialization by use of fossil fuels is adding carbon dioxide to the atmosphere, and that is the problem.

The ideal is to get them to follow a different path, and use clean energy to fuel their modernization. It is difficult when they see us tooling around in little fossil fuel spinners, ourselves. We're like...do as I say, not as I do... As any adult trying to explain alcohol or tobacco to a kid knows, it’s difficult.


Last edited by Original Quill on Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:00 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Post by eddie Fri Aug 13, 2021 11:00 pm

Original Quill wrote:
eddie wrote:Is America one of the worst nations that contribute to climate change? I’d also say China is a pretty big contributor.

Also, Japan.  Almost any nation that is clamoring to achieve industrialization by use of fossil fuels is adding carbon dioxide to the atmosphere, and that is the problem.

The ideal is to get them to follow a different path, and use clean energy to fuel their modernization.

Driving cars is a bugbear of mine. A lot of people drive when there’s no need. People are lazy and getting lazier. I’m so glad I never learned to drive. Public transport is excellent.

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Post by Tommy Monk Sat Aug 14, 2021 11:53 am




It's nothing to do with co2.


It's probably more to do with these huge wind farm installations that are sucking the energy out of the natural way the wind blows and changing the natural wind currents...



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Post by Original Quill Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:02 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:It's nothing to do with co2.

It's probably more to do with these huge wind farm installations that are sucking the energy out of the natural way the wind blows and changing the natural wind currents...

Or it could be those Tory ministers boinking their secretaries...I hear they require a lot of wind. Twisted Evil

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Post by Tommy Monk Sat Aug 14, 2021 4:59 pm




Which is nothing in comparison to the hot air that comes from you every day...


lol!



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Post by Original Quill Sat Aug 14, 2021 5:05 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:Which is nothing in comparison to the hot air that comes from you every day...

lol!

The difference is, mine comes out in words. Yours come out of a different orifice. Embarassed

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Post by Tommy Monk Sat Aug 14, 2021 9:21 pm





Do you honestly think that the huge number of wind farm turbines that have been built all over UK and Europe over recent few years will have absolutely no effect on the wind currents that were naturally occurring before their construction...?



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Post by Ben Reilly Sat Aug 14, 2021 10:43 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:



Do you honestly think that the huge number of wind farm turbines that have been built all over UK and Europe over recent few years will have absolutely no effect on the wind currents that were naturally occurring before their construction...?



I know you didn't ask me, but I don't think they will have any effect whatsoever -- they don't force air to pass around them, like huge buildings in big cities do and have done for many decades.

I think what affects wind currents a lot more is adding greenhouse gases to the atmosphere, causing the air to warm up, dry out and create more forceful winds.

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Post by Tommy Monk Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:44 am




No, they don't force air to pass around them as big buildings do, they take the energy out of the wind currents as they are turned by the wind...


Thus the wind will be weaker and have less pressure in these areas...



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Post by eddie Sun Aug 15, 2021 1:05 am

Tommy Monk wrote:


No, they don't force air to pass around them as big buildings do, they take the energy out of the wind currents as they are turned by the wind...


Thus the wind will be weaker and have less pressure in these areas...



Where do you get this information from?

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Post by Tommy Monk Sun Aug 15, 2021 10:05 am




Physics...



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Post by Tommy Monk Sun Aug 15, 2021 11:03 am




It's nothing to do with co2.


It's probably more to do with these huge wind farm installations that are sucking the energy out of the natural way the wind blows and changing the natural wind currents...





My theory above is from my own thoughts and in keeping with my understanding of physics... And it appears that I am not alone in this thinking... I found this below...




Wind turbines generate electricity but also alter the atmospheric flow," says first author Lee Miller. "Those effects redistribute heat and moisture in the atmosphere, which impacts climate....

More than ten previous studies have now observed local warming caused by US wind farms.


https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/10/181004112553.htm




And if you do a bit of research, you will find that there has been large increases in wind farm turbines in the countries/region in recent years that are currently seeing these increased temperatures and wildfires...




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Post by Tommy Monk Sun Aug 15, 2021 12:00 pm

eddie wrote:
Tommy Monk wrote:


No, they don't force air to pass around them as big buildings do, they take the energy out of the wind currents as they are turned by the wind...


Thus the wind will be weaker and have less pressure in these areas...



Where do you get this information from?



Wind is used to produce electricity using the kinetic energy created by air in motion. This is transformed into electrical energy using wind turbines or wind energy conversion systems.



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