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Post by Didgee on Sun Jul 26, 2020 9:52 pm

Austin: Black Lives Matter protesters blocked the streets. A car was trying to get through.

One of the BLM protesters, Garrett Foster, fired five shots at the vehicle with an AK47. He missed every shot.

The driver fired back three times. Killing him.

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1287438995463344129

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1287439251777363968

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1287440150897635328

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Post by Original Quill on Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:19 pm

All we need is half-dozen more with AK-47's, and the next Civil War starts.

Then you guys will see the wisdom of the Pacific States leaving peacefully, for a life without southerners.

cheers

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Post by Maddog on Sun Jul 26, 2020 10:55 pm

Didgee wrote:Austin: Black Lives Matter protesters blocked the streets. A car was trying to get through.

One of the BLM protesters, Garrett Foster, fired five shots at the vehicle with an AK47. He missed every shot.

The driver fired back three times. Killing him.

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1287438995463344129

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1287439251777363968

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1287440150897635328

This story is still pretty fluid. Not sure he actually fired at the vehicle.

I'm reserving judgement, but it appears that the shooter is cooperating with police and charges have not been fired yet.

These idiots need to stop blocking cars though. March all you want, but surrounding cars, especially while armed, is not a good idea.


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Post by Didgee on Mon Jul 27, 2020 2:58 am

Maddog wrote:
Didgee wrote:Austin: Black Lives Matter protesters blocked the streets. A car was trying to get through.

One of the BLM protesters, Garrett Foster, fired five shots at the vehicle with an AK47. He missed every shot.

The driver fired back three times. Killing him.

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1287438995463344129

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1287439251777363968

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1287440150897635328

This story is still pretty fluid. Not sure he actually fired at the vehicle.

I'm reserving judgement, but it appears that the shooter is cooperating with police and charges have not been fired yet.

These idiots need to stop blocking cars though. March all you want, but surrounding cars, especially while armed, is not a good idea.



Was defo an automatic rifle that fired 5 shots first, then a handgun shot 3 times

Yeah its best to reserve judgement until more is known

Yeah I think people are getting sick of these Anarchists that have high jacked the blacks lies matter movement

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Post by Eilzel on Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:32 am

Maddog wrote:
Didgee wrote:Austin: Black Lives Matter protesters blocked the streets. A car was trying to get through.

One of the BLM protesters, Garrett Foster, fired five shots at the vehicle with an AK47. He missed every shot.

The driver fired back three times. Killing him.

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1287438995463344129

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1287439251777363968

https://twitter.com/stillgray/status/1287440150897635328

This story is still pretty fluid. Not sure he actually fired at the vehicle.

I'm reserving judgement, but it appears that the shooter is cooperating with police and charges have not been fired yet.

These idiots need to stop blocking cars though. March all you want, but surrounding cars, especially while armed, is not a good idea.


Wonder why people seem to get shot at US protests more often than protests in other western nations? Is there something wrong with the people?

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Post by Original Quill on Mon Jul 27, 2020 3:43 am

Eilzel wrote:
Maddog wrote:

This story is still pretty fluid. Not sure he actually fired at the vehicle.

I'm reserving judgement, but it appears that the shooter is cooperating with police and charges have not been fired yet.

These idiots need to stop blocking cars though. March all you want, but surrounding cars, especially while armed, is not a good idea.


Wonder why people seem to get shot at US protests more often than protests in other western nations? Is there something wrong with the people?

Well, this one was in Texas. Call it southern hospitality.

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Post by Maddog on Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:06 am

Eilzel wrote:
Maddog wrote:

This story is still pretty fluid. Not sure he actually fired at the vehicle.

I'm reserving judgement, but it appears that the shooter is cooperating with police and charges have not been fired yet.

These idiots need to stop blocking cars though. March all you want, but surrounding cars, especially while armed, is not a good idea.


Wonder why people seem to get shot at US protests more often than protests in other western nations? Is there something wrong with the people?

Dont know. It appears that the shooters were not at a protest and were simply minding their own business when assaulted.

There is no doubt that assaulted people in the US kill people in higher numbers than most countries.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:03 am




BLM is just a convenient excuse for violence looting and thuggery!


The trouble makers need to be arrested and prosecuted and jailed!



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Post by Maddog on Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:14 am

Tommy Monk wrote:


BLM is just a convenient excuse for violence looting and thuggery!


The trouble makers need to be arrested and prosecuted and jailed!



This guy is an odd case, and the normal sides are a bit perplexed on how to handle it. We was a white, Libertarian, much like me.

However, unlike me, he felt it was helpful to basically detain another person and point a gun at them.

Reports are that he never fired his weapon but the folks in the car are under no obligation to wait for him to do that.

It's tragic, but he should have known better.

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Jul 28, 2020 3:56 am

Tommy Monk wrote:


BLM is just a convenient excuse for violence looting and thuggery!
'
But the BLM people don't seem to be the ones that are doing the looting, or anything illegal.  The BLM people are peaceful demonstrators, nothing more.

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Post by Syl on Tue Jul 28, 2020 12:39 pm

But they are now creating more division than was previously there.

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:20 pm

Syl wrote:But they are now creating more division  than was previously there.


With justification.  Who wants to side with murderous cops, or prosecutors who sweep misdeeds, done under color of law, under the carpet?  But neither the BLM people nor the people demonstrating over the murder of George Floyd are the ones misbehaving.  Word here is those folks are home by curfew, and always conduct themselves appropriately.  Anything else would be disrespectful to the black men whose lost lives they morn.  They are just exercising their 1st Amendment rights to express their dissatisfaction with the entire country going into the toilet.

Seasoned reporters say they recognize the trouble-makers, and those individuals come out whether it's a BLM event, or a 'Save the Groundhog' event.  They turn every event into a brawl.  They are the ones who go about at 3 am, breaking windows, looting and creating havoc.

If you ask me, it's all a general dissatisfaction with the way Republican leaders are conducting themselves.  So much of our society has turned into rubbish in the last four years.  We are very close to turning into an authoritarian dictatorship, and people are aware of it...they simply don't like it.

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Post by eddie on Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:16 am

Tommy Monk wrote:


BLM is just a convenient excuse for violence looting and thuggery!


The trouble makers need to be arrested and prosecuted and jailed!



I agree. No need for that shit.

Not all BLM protestors are like that though! It’s the few that spoil it for the many.

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Post by Ben Reilly on Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:21 am

We'd all be better off if violent people couldn't have guns... and if nobody judged people of different races by the worst examples they see.

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Post by eddie on Wed Jul 29, 2020 12:30 am

Ben Reilly wrote:We'd all be better off if violent people couldn't have guns... and if nobody judged people of different races by the worst examples they see.

Nobody should own a gun. Then we would see fewer deaths. Just my opinion. Obvs. Razz

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Post by Cass on Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:39 am

eddie wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:We'd all be better off if violent people couldn't have guns... and if nobody judged people of different races by the worst examples they see.

Nobody should own a gun. Then we would see fewer deaths. Just my opinion. Obvs. Razz

No kidding.
+1

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Post by Maddog on Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:18 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:We'd all be better off if violent people couldn't have guns... and if nobody judged people of different races by the worst examples they see.

What exactly is a violent person?

Was the guy outside of the car being violent, or the guy inside?

Or the third guy that shot at the car as it drove away?

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jul 29, 2020 3:40 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:We'd all be better off if violent people couldn't have guns... and if nobody judged people of different races by the worst examples they see.

What exactly is a violent person?  

Was the guy outside of the car being violent, or the guy inside?

Or the third guy that shot at the car as it drove away?  

This is the very reason we shouldn't have guns.  If we can't even determine who "is a violent person", why would we let loose 'permanent-death sticks' on the world?  It's the height of ignorance that people can't figure that out.

It's not that difficult to ban guns.  We've done it with nuclear weapons, why not the equally lethal firearm.

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Post by eddie on Wed Jul 29, 2020 10:50 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:We'd all be better off if violent people couldn't have guns... and if nobody judged people of different races by the worst examples they see.

What exactly is a violent person?  

Was the guy outside of the car being violent, or the guy inside?

Or the third guy that shot at the car as it drove away?  

Good point.

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Post by Victorismyhero on Wed Jul 29, 2020 11:55 pm

eddie wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:We'd all be better off if violent people couldn't have guns... and if nobody judged people of different races by the worst examples they see.

Nobody should own a gun. Then we would see fewer deaths. Just my opinion. Obvs. Razz

Forget America (they are nuts over there)

So...what kills most people in the UK

cars
knives
guns

???????????????????????????????????

just because YOU dont like guns, or see a reason to have/use one, is not a reason to stop the 1000's of decent licenced (and almost entirely law abiding) people who use them for game or clay shooting from having them. (in the uk)

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Post by eddie on Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:28 am

Oh Vic. Here you go again with the “let’s compare guns and cars”

Guns are misused and kill a lot of people. Keep telling yourself that it’s the same as cars that run people over.

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Post by Maddog on Thu Jul 30, 2020 12:46 am

eddie wrote:Oh Vic. Here you go again with the “let’s compare guns and cars”

Guns are misused and kill a lot of people. Keep telling yourself that it’s the same as cars that run people over.

Guns are properly used too. I mean they are designed to kill and properly used they kill people trying to harm others.

Guns are a terrible means of transportation. Cars suck as home defense weapons.

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Jul 30, 2020 1:25 am

Maddog wrote:
eddie wrote:Oh Vic. Here you go again with the “let’s compare guns and cars”

Guns are misused and kill a lot of people. Keep telling yourself that it’s the same as cars that run people over.

Guns are properly used too.  I mean they are designed to kill and properly used they kill people trying to harm others.

How do you properly kill people? Do you smoke their meat afterwards, or just throw their ass on the grill?

The truth is that people who use guns shoot first and ask questions later. So, the winner is declared by the police after-the-fact. If the survivor says the magic words afterwards, he gets to walk. It's a stupid game.

On the other hand, if we don't allow guns, we don't play games with them. Your child, or your gun...the choice is yours. Cool

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Post by Eilzel on Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:00 am

Victorismyhero wrote:
eddie wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:We'd all be better off if violent people couldn't have guns... and if nobody judged people of different races by the worst examples they see.

Nobody should own a gun. Then we would see fewer deaths. Just my opinion. Obvs. Razz

Forget America (they are nuts over there)

So...what kills most people in the UK

cars
knives
guns

???????????????????????????????????

just because YOU dont like guns, or see a reason to have/use one, is not a reason to stop the 1000's of decent licenced (and almost entirely law abiding) people who use them for game or clay shooting from having them. (in the uk)

If the same proportion of the UK population owned guns as Americans do, we'd probably see a heck of a lot more gun deaths in the UK. Just hazarding a guess ofc Wink

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Post by nicko on Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:25 am

Death by Shooting in the UK is mostly by the use of Knives,since the ban on Handguns in the UK it's only criminals who have them. Law-abiding Shooters are restricted to Shotguns and Rifles for game and target shooting !
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Post by Eilzel on Thu Jul 30, 2020 9:44 am

nicko wrote:Death by Shooting in the UK is mostly by the use of Knives,since the ban on Handguns in the UK it's only criminals who have them. Law-abiding Shooters are restricted to Shotguns and Rifles for game and target shooting !

The gun situation in the UK is fine. How many innocent people are killed by guns in the UK compared to the US? I don't have those numbers, but I bet it's minuscule by comparison.

I don't feel unsafe in England without a gun. I'd feel far less safe in the US even with one.

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Post by nicko on Thu Jul 30, 2020 10:37 am

Just looking at my post,it should read---Deaths in the UK Are mostly caused by knives !-----sorry, still half asleep .
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Post by Maddog on Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:45 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Victorismyhero wrote:

Forget America (they are nuts over there)

So...what kills most people in the UK

cars
knives
guns

???????????????????????????????????

just because YOU dont like guns, or see a reason to have/use one, is not a reason to stop the 1000's of decent licenced (and almost entirely law abiding) people who use them for game or clay shooting from having them. (in the uk)

If the same proportion of the UK population owned guns as Americans do, we'd probably see a heck of a lot more gun deaths in the UK. Just hazarding a guess ofc Wink

And a few less knife deaths. And more defensive uses of guns.

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Post by Eilzel on Thu Jul 30, 2020 2:49 pm

Maddog wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Victorismyhero wrote:

Forget America (they are nuts over there)

So...what kills most people in the UK

cars
knives
guns

???????????????????????????????????

just because YOU dont like guns, or see a reason to have/use one, is not a reason to stop the 1000's of decent licenced (and almost entirely law abiding) people who use them for game or clay shooting from having them. (in the uk)

If the same proportion of the UK population owned guns as Americans do, we'd probably see a heck of a lot more gun deaths in the UK. Just hazarding a guess ofc Wink

And a few less knife deaths.  And more defensive uses of guns.  

Do you really think any hypothetical drop in knife deaths would not be more than made up for by a dramatic rise in gun deaths? It is hideously easier to kill with a gun than with a knife.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Thu Jul 30, 2020 5:04 pm

eddie wrote:Oh Vic. Here you go again with the “let’s compare guns and cars”

Guns are misused and kill a lot of people. Keep telling yourself that it’s the same as cars that run people over.



Cars are also sometimes used to deliberately run people over.
. the recent terrorist attack on London bridge and Borough market, the terrorists used their can to run numerous people over...



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Post by Original Quill on Thu Jul 30, 2020 6:47 pm

Maddog wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

If the same proportion of the UK population owned guns as Americans do, we'd probably see a heck of a lot more gun deaths in the UK. Just hazarding a guess ofc Wink

And a few less knife deaths.  And more defensive uses of guns.  

Do you think that by adding the adjective "defensive" to the act of shooting another person, it cleanses the problem?  “Defensive” is a term of art in the law.  It’s a legal justification.  Legal determinations come afterwards.  The concern with guns is not a legal question, but a concern with avoiding the tragedy. The worry is to stop the killing before the fact, to prevent the catastrophe.

There is a difference between Law and Order.  Law is the determination of rule and fact.  Order is the immediate cessation of violence to person and property.  This difference is why the two are mentioned separately.

Even someone like Dylann Roof states he had justification at the time: he used his .45-caliber handgun to kill parishioners in the Charleston church shooting of June 17, 2015 because: “I have to do this, because you’re raping our women and y’all taking over the world.”  He believed he was justified, and whether his actions were “defensive” was a matter to be determined.  You don’t determine “defensive” until a jury says so.

To stop shootings, or any kind of violence, you have to treat it as an issue of Order.  Most people who kill another person think they are acting in a justified way (defensively), regardless of context.  Indeed, that's the reason why the "bad guy" and terms like “defensive” are generally determined by the police and courts after-the-fact.  It’s of no use on the spot.

You don’t stop gun violence by harsh legal language.  You stop it by taking the guns away.

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Post by Maddog on Fri Jul 31, 2020 1:33 am

Eilzel wrote:
Maddog wrote:

And a few less knife deaths.  And more defensive uses of guns.  

Do you really think any hypothetical drop in knife deaths would not be more than made up for by a dramatic rise in gun deaths? It is hideously easier to kill with a gun than with a knife.

That's possible. Do you really think there wouldn't be a rise in the defensive uses of guns if people had more access to them?

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Post by Original Quill on Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:46 am

Maddog wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

Do you really think any hypothetical drop in knife deaths would not be more than made up for by a dramatic rise in gun deaths? It is hideously easier to kill with a gun than with a knife.

That's possible. Do you really think there wouldn't be a rise in the defensive uses of guns if people had more access to them?

As stated, there is no "defensive uses of guns". Guns kill now, defenses arise months, if not years from now.

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“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Eilzel on Fri Jul 31, 2020 2:54 am

Maddog wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Maddog wrote:

And a few less knife deaths.  And more defensive uses of guns.  

Do you really think any hypothetical drop in knife deaths would not be more than made up for by a dramatic rise in gun deaths? It is hideously easier to kill with a gun than with a knife.

That's possible. Do you really think there wouldn't be a rise in the defensive uses of guns if people had more access to them?

Maybe, probably, who knows; that has no bearing on whether they should be allowed though. And doesn't change the fact more people would die and more mass shootings would occur.

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Post by Maddog on Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:01 am

Eilzel wrote:
Maddog wrote:

That's possible. Do you really think there wouldn't be a rise in the defensive uses of guns if people had more access to them?

Maybe, probably, who knows; that has no bearing on whether they should be allowed though. And doesn't change the fact more people would die and more mass shootings would occur.

Sure it does. It's part of the equation. With more guns, stupid people will likely kill each other in higher numbers. Not so stupid people will defend themselves from stupid people in higher numbers.

Should a single mom be rendered defenseless, because two idiots across town will shoot each other over tennis shoes?


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Post by Eilzel on Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:31 am

Maddog wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Maddog wrote:

That's possible. Do you really think there wouldn't be a rise in the defensive uses of guns if people had more access to them?

Maybe, probably, who knows; that has no bearing on whether they should be allowed though. And doesn't change the fact more people would die and more mass shootings would occur.

Sure it does. It's part of the equation. With more guns, stupid people will likely kill each other in higher numbers. Not so stupid people will defend themselves from stupid people in higher numbers.

Should a single mom be rendered defenseless, because two idiots across town will shoot each other over tennis shoes?


I'm not as into anecdotal scenarios.

The fact is murder rates are higher in the US than the UK, largely due to the possession of guns.

Me having a gun where everyone else might have a gun would not make me feel safer than not having a gun and knowing 99%+ of people don't have one either.

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Post by Original Quill on Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:13 am

Maddog wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

Maybe, probably, who knows; that has no bearing on whether they should be allowed though. And doesn't change the fact more people would die and more mass shootings would occur.

Sure it does. It's part of the equation. With more guns, stupid people will likely kill each other in higher numbers. Not so stupid people will defend themselves from stupid people in higher numbers.

Should a single mom be rendered defenseless, because two idiots across town will shoot each other over tennis shoes?

That is a very good point if your plan is to rid the world of stupid people.  And nice touch, adding the innocent, bereft feminine flavor, in the single mom.

But all of the people you want to rid the world of are mothers and fathers, sisters and brothers, and children of people like yourself.  And besides, who made you god, and left in your hands who should live or die.

We'd rather not have a plan to kill stupid people.  It sounds too much like having a Führer racial hierarchy, right out of Chapter 11 (Nation and Race) of Hitler's Mein Kampf. If that's all that gun toting is all about, we need to ban guns.

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Post by Maddog on Fri Jul 31, 2020 3:58 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Maddog wrote:

Sure it does. It's part of the equation. With more guns, stupid people will likely kill each other in higher numbers. Not so stupid people will defend themselves from stupid people in higher numbers.

Should a single mom be rendered defenseless, because two idiots across town will shoot each other over tennis shoes?


I'm not as into anecdotal scenarios.

The fact is murder rates are higher in the US than the UK, largely due to the possession of guns.

Me having a gun where everyone else might have a gun would not make me feel safer than not having a gun and knowing 99%+ of people don't have one either.

Yes, the murder rates are higher. So is the rate of defensive uses of guns, which is important when you consider whether people should be armed.

People in the US engaged in dangerous activities have a much higher rate of murder. Do you think murder is evenly distributed across the country and just randomly happens to people regardless of behavior?

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Post by Maddog on Fri Jul 31, 2020 4:00 pm

Meanwhile, the shooter has been identified. He's a US soldier making a little side money driving for Uber. He had just dropped off a passenger so he was in the area working.

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Post by Original Quill on Fri Jul 31, 2020 6:03 pm

Maddog wrote:Yes, the murder rates are higher. So is the rate of defensive uses of guns, which is important when you consider whether people should be armed.

What are the rates. or statistics on "defensive uses of guns"?  How defined?  How many?  What rate per firearms fired?  Who compiles them?  Is this another bullshite southern invention...like, say, Jim Crow statistics?  Wink

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Post by Ben Reilly on Sat Aug 01, 2020 10:01 pm

It's simple math. You take 50 people, put them in a bar for five hours, and there's a certain chance that someone will get murdered.

You add several guns to the equation, and the likelihood inevitably goes up.

Good Guys With Guns only protect people from Bad Guys With Guns. If nobody had guns in the first place .... you see where I'm going with this.

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Post by Original Quill on Sat Aug 01, 2020 11:48 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:It's simple math. You take 50 people, put them in a bar for five hours, and there's a certain chance that someone will get murdered.

You add several guns to the equation, and the likelihood inevitably goes up.

Good Guys With Guns only protect people from Bad Guys With Guns. If nobody had guns in the first place .... you see where I'm going with this.

I'll add that gun advocates put the cart before the horse. When it comes to defensive shootings, you won't be able to tell the good guy from the bad guy until the trial...a year later. And in fact, the guy who lives to tell his story usually wins, meaning he lies. You have only to look at the Treyvon Martin killing.

So the idea that there is such a thing as a defensive shooting is probably a fiction. People who carry guns are looking to kill someone.

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Post by Maddog on Mon Aug 03, 2020 7:51 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:It's simple math. You take 50 people, put them in a bar for five hours, and there's a certain chance that someone will get murdered.

You add several guns to the equation, and the likelihood inevitably goes up.

Good Guys With Guns only protect people from Bad Guys With Guns. If nobody had guns in the first place .... you see where I'm going with this.

If nobody had guns the physically strong would be able to overpower the weak.

It's why the Colt .45 was called "The Equalizer".

It could make someone like Quill my equal.

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Aug 04, 2020 2:54 am

Maddog wrote:If nobody had guns the physically strong would be able to overpower the weak.

Well, there is another choice. Settle it without guns, and nobody gets killed.

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Aug 04, 2020 5:36 am

Maddog wrote:It could make someone like Quill my equal.

Red, you're upset because I've made a fool of you in this debate about guns. Try being a man...and one with a brain. All of your macho arguments about being a hero with a gun are silly.

You wouldn't have a gun if you weren't scared of trouble. You wouldn't need a gun if you felt you could handle trouble. You're frightened and feel inadequate, and that's why you believe your dick needs help.

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"What's yours is mine, and what's mine is mine." ― Old Republican proverb.

"I don't stand by anything."  ― Donald Trump, interview with John Dickerson, 5.1.17...

“That's libertarians for you — anarchists who want police protection from their slaves.” ― Kim Stanley Robinson, Green Mars (1993).

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Post by Maddog on Wed Aug 05, 2020 2:42 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:If nobody had guns the physically strong would be able to overpower the weak.

Well, there is another choice.  Settle it without guns, and nobody gets killed.

Sure they do. The weaker one usually dies.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Aug 05, 2020 4:22 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Well, there is another choice.  Settle it without guns, and nobody gets killed.

Sure they do.  The weaker one usually dies.  

I must say, you are an abject Darwinist. God gave humans intelligence so they could rise above the primitive state, but you seem to be devoted to the lower regions. Rolling Eyes

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