Has Trump started Civil War in America?

by Original Quill Mon Jul 20, 2020 2:38 am

NY Daily News wrote:Portland mayor tells Trump: Get your troops out of my city

By ANDREW SELSKY AND GILLIAN FLACCUS
ASSOCIATED PRESS |
JUL 17, 2020

The mayor of Portland, Ore., demanded Friday that President Donald Trump remove militarized federal agents he deployed to the city after some detained people on streets far from federal property they were sent to protect.

"Keep your troops in your own buildings, or have them leave our city," Mayor Ted Wheeler said at a news conference.

Democratic Gov. Kate Brown said Trump is looking for a confrontation in the hopes of winning political points elsewhere. It also serves as a distraction from the coronavirus pandemic, which is causing spiking numbers of infections in Oregon and the nation.

Brown's spokesman, Charles Boyle, said Friday that arresting people without probable cause is "extraordinarily concerning and a violation of their civil liberties and constitutional rights."

The ACLU of Oregon said the federal agents appear to be violating citizens' rights, which "should concern everyone in the United States."

"Usually when we see people in unmarked cars forcibly grab someone off the street we call it kidnapping," said Jann Carson, interim executive director of the American Civil Liberties Union of Oregon. "The actions of the militarized federal officers are flat-out unconstitutional and will not go unanswered."

Federal officers have charged at least 13 people with crimes related to the protests so far, Oregon Public Broadcasting reported Thursday. Some have been detained by the federal courthouse, which has been the scene of protests. But others were grabbed blocks away.

"This is part of the core media strategy out of Trump's White House: to use federal troops to bolster his sagging polling data," Wheeler said. "And it is an absolute abuse of federal law enforcement officials."

One video showed two people in helmets and green camouflage with "police" patches grabbing a person on the sidewalk, handcuffing them and taking them into an unmarked vehicle.

"Who are you?" someone asks the pair, who do not respond. At least some of the federal officers belong to the Department of Homeland Security.

The U.S. Customs and Border Protection said in a statement that its agents had information indicating the person in the video was suspected of assaulting federal agents or destroying federal property.

"Once CBP agents approached the suspect, a large and violent mob moved towards their location. For everyone's safety, CBP agents quickly moved the suspect to a safer location," the agency said. However, the video shows no mob.

In another case, Mark Pettibone, 29, said a minivan rolled up to him around 2 a.m. Wednesday and four or five people got out "looking like they were deployed to a Middle Eastern war."

Pettibone told The Associated Press he got to his knees as the group approached. They dragged him into the van without identifying themselves or responding to his questions and pulled his beanie over his eyes so he couldn't see, he said.

“I figured I was just going to disappear for an indefinite amount of time,” Pettibone said.

Pettibone said he was put into a cell and officers dumped the contents of his backpack, with one remarking: “Oh, this is a bunch of nothing.”

After he asked for a lawyer, Pettibone was allowed to leave.

“Authoritarian governments, not democratic republics, send unmarked authorities after protesters,” Democratic U.S. Sen. Jeff Merkley said in a tweet.

U.S. Attorney Billy Williams in Portland said Friday he has requested the Department of Homeland Security Office of the Inspector General investigate the actions of DHS personnel.

In a letter Friday, Oregon's two senators and two of its House members demanded that U.S. Attorney General William Barr and Homeland Security Acting Secretary Chad Wolf immediately withdraw "these federal paramilitary forces from our state."

The members of Congress also said they'll be asking the DHS inspector general as well as the U.S. Department of Justice to investigate "the unrequested presence and violent actions of federal forces in Portland."

“It’s painfully clear this administration is focused purely on escalating violence without answering my repeated requests for why this expeditionary force is in Portland and under what constitutional authority,” Democratic Sen. Ron Wyden said.

On Thursday night, federal officers deployed tear gas and fired non-lethal rounds into a crowd of protesters.

Wolf visited Portland on Thursday and called the demonstrators, who are protesting racism and police brutality, “violent anarchists.”

Wolf blamed state and city authorities for not putting an end to the protests. But Portland police said Friday they wound up arresting 20 people overnight.

At least two protests occurred Thursday night, one near the federal courthouse and the other by a police station in another part of the city. Police told protesters to leave that site after announcing they heard some chanting about burning down the building. Protester Paul Frazier said Friday the chant was “much more rhetorical than an actual statement.”

Portland Police Chief Chuck Lovell told reporters Friday that his officers are in contact with the federal agents, but that neither controls the others’ actions.

"We do communicate with federal officers for the purpose of situational awareness and deconfliction," Lovell said. "We're operating in a very, very close proximity to one another ... so it's important for us to know if they're going to take some type of action and it's important for them to know if we're going to take some type of action."

The American Civil Liberties Union Foundation of Oregon on Friday added the federal government to a lawsuit it filed earlier to halt the use of crowd control measures, including tear gas and rubber bullets, against journalists and legal observers at protests in Portland.

“The lawsuit is one of many the ACLU will be filing against federal authorities in Portland for their unconstitutional attacks on people protesting the police killing of George Floyd,” the group said.

Tensions have escalated in the past two weeks, particularly after an officer with the U.S. Marshals Service fired a less-lethal round at a protester's head on July 11, critically injuring him.

The protests following the police killing of Floyd in Minneapolis have often devolved into violent clashes between smaller groups and the police. The unrest has caused deep divisions in a city that prides itself on its activism and progressive reputation.

by Tommy Monk Mon Jul 20, 2020 11:43 am

It is the so called 'drmocrats' who can't accept the democratic result that they lost the election, who are trying every trick in the book to bring down Trump and/or the govt, and who are whipping up division and animosity across the US...!

by Maddog Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:19 pm

Not sure about a civil war but those federal officers are going to make things worse. Portland can handle Portland, and if they cant that's their problem.

The Libertarian community is still trying to sort through this. Leftists didn't want the armed Boogaloo folks there during the start of the riots. They drug out the old racist tropes like Quill does daily on here. We also know that leftists would be fine with federal agents arresting armed Boogaloo folks. So there's a bit of "fuck you, you're on your own" right now.

BLM shit on natural allies because they are not an honest nor righteous cause. Sorry, not sorry.

by Maddog Mon Jul 20, 2020 4:34 pm

by Original Quill Mon Jul 20, 2020 5:11 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:It is the so called 'drmocrats' who can't accept the democratic result that they lost the election, who are trying every trick in the book to bring down Trump and/or the govt, and who are whipping up division and animosity across the US...!

It's more than that, tom. First, Trump was not elected, so a "democratic result" is not even in issue. He lost by some 3-million votes, but was appointed by the electoral college.

Second, were appointments or elections to mean you could throw out the Constitution and all the institutions that have been built up, and have precedence in the US, you might be right. But a presidential election only authorizes changes within the framework of executive orders. We elect a president, not a dictator.

Most changes require Congressional approval. That means action by both houses, the House of Representatives as well as the Senate.

Then changes must pass Constitutional muster. According to Article VI, the U.S. Constitution is the highest law in the land, so that to be in violation of it is to violate the most sacred and valued provisions of US law. The U.S. Constitution limits executive action to only actions expressly authorized by the Constitution. Everything else is left to the states. U.S. Constitution, Amendment No. 10.

What Trump has done is to create his own paramilitary unit, or Sturmabteilung (SA, or Storm Troops), answerable only to himself. Technically, his Brown Shirts are taken from various agencies of the Department of Homeland Security, however no authorization to use such personnel, in that capacity, has been sought, nor has any been granted by Congress. The Trump Brown Shirts are rogue units in every sense of the word.

By taking such extra-legal action, particularly against citizens of the United States, Trump has started a Civil War in every sense of the term. It is unauthorized, and thus unilateral action in breach of the common peace. U.S. Constitution, Article II, and laws promulgated thereunder; Amendment X. It is a direct violation of the right to speech and assembly. U.S. Constitution, Amendment I. It is extra-legal, and thus a violation of lawful order. U.S. Constitution, Amendment V and X. Most importantly, it is in furtherance of a single political persuasion ("public matter"), and in derogation of another, in violation of the US Constitution, Article IV, Section 4 ("The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government").

Such an open challenge to laws, and the foundation document of the United States, is an act of lawlessness in furtherance of a rebellion to the law and order of the United States. When coupled with unauthorized open violence and assault on citizens of the United States, it amounts to a declaration of war. Trump has declared Civil War on the United States.

by Maddog Tue Jul 21, 2020 11:21 pm

Dear Portlandia progressives: a federal government big enough to take care of you is a federal government big enough to "take care of you."

Scary unidentifiable police, federal black sites, and procedureless snatching of individuals from the streets are the wholly predictable and natural consequences of the very policies you advocated for decades. Why do you imagine a big government with lots of power will restrict itself to the cozy "social issues" and economic takings you support? Government can seize the means of production, but not seize you? You wanted everything run from DC, and you got what you wanted. Plus you certainly would be every bit as outraged if federal agents concerned about the undermining of America surreptitiously snatched up a few "white supremacists," right?

https://mises.org/power-market/about-those-spooky-federal-cops-portland

You reap what you sow.

Or

Karma's a bitch.

by eddie Wed Jul 22, 2020 10:49 pm

Tommy Monk wrote:

It is the so called 'drmocrats' who can't accept the democratic result that they lost the election, who are trying every trick in the book to bring down Trump and/or the govt, and who are whipping up division and animosity across the US...!

To be fair...Trump is a bit of a cunt.

by Ben Reilly Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:32 pm

It's been said, rather fairly, that the Democrats believe in having a republic while Republicans believe in democracy. But! Two things:

Trump didn't win the popular vote. If America was a direct democracy, Trump would have lost the presidency by nearly 3 million votes.

And even a duly elected president who is generally popular isn't immune from the criticism of people who have the legal right to free expression.

And because I refuse to be restricted by my "two things" comment, I'll also point out that when Obama won his first election handily, the Republicans held a meeting in which they declared their top priority to be tearing Obama down at every opportunity. So they didn't respect the outcome of an election in which the president won the Electoral College and the popular vote, but accuse Democrats of not respecting the outcome of an election in which Trump was not supported by most Americans, but still got in.

So you tell me which is worse, Tommy.

by Ben Reilly Wed Jul 22, 2020 11:37 pm

Maddog wrote:Dear Portlandia progressives: a federal government big enough to take care of you is a federal government big enough to "take care of you."

Scary unidentifiable police, federal black sites, and procedureless snatching of individuals from the streets are the wholly predictable and natural consequences of the very policies you advocated for decades. Why do you imagine a big government with lots of power will restrict itself to the cozy "social issues" and economic takings you support? Government can seize the means of production, but not seize you? You wanted everything run from DC, and you got what you wanted. Plus you certainly would be every bit as outraged if federal agents concerned about the undermining of America surreptitiously snatched up a few "white supremacists," right?

https://mises.org/power-market/about-those-spooky-federal-cops-portland

You reap what you sow.

Or

Karma's a bitch.

Well, those Portlandia progressives certainly got what they wanted with Trump in charge, didn't they?

Even the PP's agree with the concept of limited government. They want the government to do things you don't want it to do, but that doesn't mean they support unlimited government power.

I find that's the big problem with American politics now -- I can't say I believe in socialized medicine without you arguing that I want the government to be big enough to whisk anti-government activists off the streets and disappear them. It's constant demonization masquerading as political debate.

by Original Quill Thu Jul 23, 2020 12:17 am

I think the Trump-organized SA Brown Shirts are just practicing in Oregon. Trump has aimed at black cities, and is targeting cities like Chicago and Kansas City, which have black mayors.

I believe Trump plans a coup, alleging that the election will be rigged. He is preparing to bunker down in the White House. The military, I understand, is preparing contingency plans to oust him from the White House on January 20th. The Brown Shirts are his contras.

Isn't that what Putin would do? I mean, isn't Putin in charge?

by Original Quill Thu Jul 23, 2020 6:55 pm

Mayor Ted Wheeler of Portland, Oregon, was assaulted by federal police yesterday, proving the federal authorities mean to carry forward this civil war at the behest of impeached President Trump.

New York Times wrote:After being tear gassed in a crowd, Portland’s mayor and police commissioner Ted Wheeler denounced federal officers for “urban warfare.”

Some protesters, recalling the city police’s past use of tear gas, mocked him: “You better be here every night, Ted!” https://nyti.ms/39qTb3N

It's one thing to attack protesters, but quite another to attack the State of Oregon, in the persons of their elected officials.

This is proof-positive that Trump has started a 2nd civil war in America (probably the inspiration of Putin). He promises to do the same in Chicago, Kansas City and Albuquerque, NM, where he has already sent in his Storm Troopers.

by Original Quill Thu Jul 23, 2020 10:57 pm

Ben wrote:It's been said, rather fairly, that the Democrats believe in having a republic while Republicans believe in democracy.

I take it that you mean that aspirationally. which is to say that such is the wish of each party.

My dictionary says: a "republic" is “a state in which supreme power is held by the people and their elected representatives, and which has an elected or nominated president rather than a monarch”; and a “democracy” is “a system of government by the whole population or all the eligible members of a state, typically through elected representatives.”

"Republicans believe in democracy"?? By that definition, Democrats are far more democratic than Republicans. Are we talking about the Republican Party that believes in voter suppression and a police state? Republicans are one step off of an oligarchy, if not an outright Nazi regime under Trump.

by Maddog Thu Jul 23, 2020 11:37 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:Dear Portlandia progressives: a federal government big enough to take care of you is a federal government big enough to "take care of you."

Scary unidentifiable police, federal black sites, and procedureless snatching of individuals from the streets are the wholly predictable and natural consequences of the very policies you advocated for decades. Why do you imagine a big government with lots of power will restrict itself to the cozy "social issues" and economic takings you support? Government can seize the means of production, but not seize you? You wanted everything run from DC, and you got what you wanted. Plus you certainly would be every bit as outraged if federal agents concerned about the undermining of America surreptitiously snatched up a few "white supremacists," right?

https://mises.org/power-market/about-those-spooky-federal-cops-portland

You reap what you sow.

Or

Karma's a bitch.

Well, those Portlandia progressives certainly got what they wanted with Trump in charge, didn't they?

Even the PP's agree with the concept of limited government. They want the government to do things you don't want it to do, but that doesn't mean they support unlimited government power.

I find that's the big problem with American politics now -- I can't say I believe in socialized medicine without you arguing that I want the government to be big enough to whisk anti-government activists off the streets and disappear them. It's constant demonization masquerading as political debate.

I don't see it as a problem, but as a truism. If you give government power, it will abuse it. Therefore, the problems of too little government, while real, are smaller than the problems of too much.

The Feds were fucking around with the Bundy family in Oregon, and the liberals cheers them on.

I don't want the Feds fucking around with the Bundy family or these Portland progressives.

But I'm irritatingly consistent, unlike the typical liberal or conservative hypocrite.

by Original Quill Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:11 am

Maddog wrote:The Feds were fucking around with the Bundy family in Oregon, and the liberals cheers them on.

The Bundy family were thieves, who deserved to be treated like any other criminals. The protesters are employing their 1st Amendment rights, having no pecuniary motives, but rather showing their dissatisfaction with government authority.

My, how you southerners cherry-pick rights to suit your crimes. Are we supposed to feel sorry for you because y'all are stupid and don't know the law? Fookin' crackers. You don't get any special breaks here, paleface. Rolling Eyes

by Maddog Fri Jul 24, 2020 3:10 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Maddog wrote:The Feds were fucking around with the Bundy family in Oregon, and the liberals cheers them on.

The Bundy family were thieves, who deserved to be treated like any other criminals. The protesters are employing their 1st Amendment rights, having no pecuniary motives, but rather showing their dissatisfaction with government authority.

My, how you southerners cherry-pick rights to suit your crimes. Are we supposed to feel sorry for you because y'all are stupid and don't know the law? Fookin' crackers. You don't get any special breaks here, paleface.

I wasn't talking to you dickface.

by Original Quill Fri Jul 24, 2020 5:19 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

The Bundy family were thieves, who deserved to be treated like any other criminals. The protesters are employing their 1st Amendment rights, having no pecuniary motives, but rather showing their dissatisfaction with government authority.

My, how you southerners cherry-pick rights to suit your crimes. Are we supposed to feel sorry for you because y'all are stupid and don't know the law? Fookin' crackers. You don't get any special breaks here, paleface.

I wasn't talking to you dickface.

No...but I was talking to you, redneck.

by Original Quill Fri Jul 24, 2020 6:46 pm

Maddog wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

The Bundy family were thieves, who deserved to be treated like any other criminals. The protesters are employing their 1st Amendment rights, having no pecuniary motives, but rather showing their dissatisfaction with government authority.

My, how you southerners cherry-pick rights to suit your crimes. Are we supposed to feel sorry for you because y'all are stupid and don't know the law? Fookin' crackers. You don't get any special breaks here, paleface.

I wasn't talking to you dickface.

I do think it's interesting that you take the opportunity to call me names, but you don't take exception to the criminal status of the Bundy's. In other words, you don't want to get into the truth with me. You just want to have a hissy-fit that I called you out on the facts.

In a sense this is how all southerners think: truth doesn't matter, it's only the tribalism that matters. To paraphrase: if you're not with me, I'll go get my gun and eliminate the problem.

Only, the truth doesn't go away. So, the southerner goes and gets a couple of black men to lynch. After all, it’s their race that is the matter. Only, it's really you and your warped racism that is the matter. Lazy thinking, false priorities, bad decisions. Amexit.

by Maddog Fri Jul 24, 2020 10:41 pm

You're not worth more than a few seconds of my time.

I will discuss this with any other forum member that would like to. We can discuss what the Bundy's did, compared to the people trying to occupy the Federal Courthouse in Portland. We can discuss the assassination of Lavoy Finicum.

I'm just not interested in doing that with you. You're far too dishonest.

by Original Quill Sat Jul 25, 2020 12:08 am

Maddog wrote:You're not worth more than a few seconds of my time.

I will discuss this with any other forum member that would like to. We can discuss what the Bundy's did, compared to the people trying to occupy the Federal Courthouse in Portland. We can discuss the assassination of Lavoy Finicum.

I'm just not interested in doing that with you. You're far too dishonest.

I understand. You are afraid to compete with me because you know, that I know the facts of the case too well.

All right...so your your interlocutor should know, the Bundy's were stealing (over $1-million) in the form of unpaid grazing fees for their cattle on federal land in Nevada (grazing rights are a big business in the American west). The United States had sought and obtained a court order for the amount, and when it was not paid they went about evicting the Bundy cattle. As a consequence...

Wiki wrote:On March 27, 2014, 145,604 acres (589 km²) of federal land in Clark County were temporarily closed for the "capture, impound, and removal of trespass cattle." BLM officials and law enforcement rangers began a roundup of such livestock on April 5, and Cliven Bundy's son, Dave, was arrested. On April 12, 2014, a group of protesters, some of them armed, approached the BLM "cattle gather." Sheriff Doug Gillespie negotiated with Bundy and newly confirmed BLM director Neil Kornze, who elected to release the cattle and de-escalate the situation. At of the end of 2015, Cliven Bundy continued to graze his cattle on federal land and still had not paid the grazing fees.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bundy_standoff

Rather than shoot and kill the Bundy's—as they would any black man/group seeking racial justice—the authorities relented. The Bundy's still have not paid what they owe. It's a classic ploy for rich white men to pretend that they are "demonstrating" for justice, while in fact they are stealing $-millions for their own pocket. They effectively utilized the "mirror-image" ploy, publicly arguing that they were just 'demonstrating'.

Has Trump started Civil War in America? Image

Imagine if we took over, say, 5-floors of Trump Tower, refused to pay rent, and showed up with AR-15's when the New York Sheriff showed up to evict us. The arrogance of rich, white men is astounding.

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