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Is the UK headed for a second lockdown?

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Is the UK headed for a second lockdown?  Empty Is the UK headed for a second lockdown?

Post by eddie on Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:05 pm

Lots of papers reporting that this could be the case in some areas.
Leicester has been hit.

Leicester lockdown: Coronavirus restrictions could be extended

Pubs and restaurants in Leicester may stay closed for two more weeks due to a surge in coronavirus cases, the city's mayor has said.

Sir Peter Soulsby said the government had recommended current restrictions are maintained for a further fortnight.

He told the Today programme the city could "remain restricted for two weeks longer than the rest of the country".

The prime minister said Public Health England and local authorities had the power to bring in a local lockdown.

There have been 2,987 positive cases in Leicester since the pandemic began, with 866 of those - 29% - reported in the two weeks to 23 June.

Coronavirus restrictions across England are due to be eased from 4 July, with pubs, restaurants, hairdressers and hotels allowed to reopen.

But Sir Peter said he had received an email from the government overnight and "it seems they're suggesting we continue the present level of restriction for a further two weeks beyond 4 July".

Health Secretary Matt Hancock is due to make a statement on whether coronavirus restrictions will be extended in the city at 21:15 BST.

The prime minister's official spokesman said Public Health England (PHE) and councils had the power to impose a local lockdown by temporarily closing public spaces, businesses and venues.

He said local health authorities could also halt admissions to hospitals.

Boris Johnson said a local "whack-a-mole" strategy used to deal with outbreaks in Weston-super-Mare and around GP surgeries in London would be "brought to bear in Leicester as well".

"We are concerned about Leicester, we are concerned about any local outbreak. I want to stress to people that we are not out of the woods yet," he added.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-leicestershire-53217095

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Post by Vintage on Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:15 pm

I am crossing my fingers we won't get a second wave around here, although the way people are going we probably will. The first time around was bad enough at work.

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Post by eddie on Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:16 pm

Vintage wrote:I am crossing my fingers we won't get a second wave around here, although the way people are going we probably will. The first time around was bad enough at work.

Yes indeed. I need to get back to work if I have any chance of hitting this bloody financial requirement. I wish there were some definitive answers coming through.
It’s all up in the air. It’s worrying.

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Post by Vintage on Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:39 pm

I just read there is a new flu in pigs in China, it can be passed to humans and its new so we haven't got any immunity. Watch this space?

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Post by eddie on Mon Jun 29, 2020 10:41 pm

Vintage wrote:I just read there is a new flu in pigs in China, it can be passed to humans and its new so we haven't got any immunity. Watch this space?

Jesus. Will it never end? No

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Post by Eilzel on Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:39 am

Vintage wrote:I just read there is a new flu in pigs in China, it can be passed to humans and its new so we haven't got any immunity. Watch this space?

Bloody hell Evil or Very Mad

Honestly, if anything comes of all this is should be an outright ban on Chinese travellers until that country can sort its disgusting approach to animals. Nearly every major pandemic has come from China, they clearly aren't learning.

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Jun 30, 2020 1:25 am

Eilzel wrote:
Vintage wrote:I just read there is a new flu in pigs in China, it can be passed to humans and its new so we haven't got any immunity. Watch this space?

Bloody hell Evil or Very Mad

Honestly, if anything comes of all this is should be an outright ban on Chinese travellers until that country can sort its disgusting approach to animals. Nearly every major pandemic has come from China, they clearly aren't learning.

Isn't that a bit racist?  Or, if not racist, somewhat ethnocentric? We seem to be heading back into a new wave of nationalism.

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Post by Eilzel on Tue Jun 30, 2020 2:35 am

Original Quill wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Vintage wrote:I just read there is a new flu in pigs in China, it can be passed to humans and its new so we haven't got any immunity. Watch this space?

Bloody hell Evil or Very Mad

Honestly, if anything comes of all this is should be an outright ban on Chinese travellers until that country can sort its disgusting approach to animals. Nearly every major pandemic has come from China, they clearly aren't learning.

Isn't that a bit racist?  Or, if not racist, somewhat ethnocentric?  We seem to be heading back into a new wave of nationalism.

No, it isn't.

It wouldn't be banning people 'because they are Chinese'

We'd be banning them because their country has a proven record of being the source of various pandemics. And both their foul wet market places combined with their disgraceful government attempts to suppress mentions of wrong doing and severity make it a danger to the rest of the world.

Is banning US travellers to the EU racist?

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:03 am

Eilzel wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Isn't that a bit racist? Or, if not racist, somewhat ethnocentric? We seem to be heading back into a new wave of nationalism.

No, it isn't.

It wouldn't be banning people 'because they are Chinese'

We'd be banning them because their country has a proven record of being the source of various pandemics. And both their foul wet market places combined with their disgraceful government attempts to suppress mentions of wrong doing and severity make it a danger to the rest of the world.

You are attacking ethnic practices that have gone on for thousands of years. Doesn't this sound a bit ethnocentric?

Les wrote:Is banning US travellers to the EU racist?

Not racist, nor even ethnocentric...unless you want to call Republicanism an ethnicity.

I would like to hear your response to this. Nationalism, isolationism and racism are what historian Jon Meacham calls 'perennial themes' in America. Do perennial themes amount to ethnicity in your view?

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Post by Eilzel on Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:27 am

Original Quill wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Isn't that a bit racist?  Or, if not racist, somewhat ethnocentric?  We seem to be heading back into a new wave of nationalism.

No, it isn't.

It wouldn't be banning people 'because they are Chinese'

We'd be banning them because their country has a proven record of being the source of various pandemics. And both their foul wet market places combined with their disgraceful government attempts to suppress mentions of wrong doing and severity make it a danger to the rest of the world.

You are attacking ethnic practices that have gone on for thousands of years.  Doesn't this sound a bit ethnocentric?

Les wrote:Is banning US travellers to the EU racist?

Not racist, nor even ethnocentric...unless you want to call Republicanism an ethnicity.

I would like to hear your response to this.  Nationalism, isolationism and racism are what historian Jon Meacham calls 'perennial themes' in America.  Do perennial themes amount to ethnicity in your view?

I'm attacking an ethicpractice (if you want to call it that) which is proven dangerous. I attack circumcision, FGM, India's caste system, the burka and various other things for the same reason.

Would you like to bring back the Hindu cultural practice of wives throwing themselves on their husband's funeral pyre? I presume not. Aspects of some cultures, including our own, are detrimental to society.

None of that is racist. And as someone happy to criticise their own culture, I don't consider it ethnocentric either.

But the areas of cultural criticism I have for England, America or even Saudi Arabia, are not currently killing half a million people and destroying the livelihoods of millions world wide.

I do not think isolationism and Nationalism always amount to ethnicity. I dislike both, but that doesn't mean all those who subscribe to either are racist.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:27 am

Eilzel wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Isn't that a bit racist?  Or, if not racist, somewhat ethnocentric?  We seem to be heading back into a new wave of nationalism.

No, it isn't.

It wouldn't be banning people 'because they are Chinese'

We'd be banning them because their country has a proven record of being the source of various pandemics. And both their foul wet market places combined with their disgraceful government attempts to suppress mentions of wrong doing and severity make it a danger to the rest of the world.

Is banning US travellers to the EU racist?



Then maybe we should ban travel from Africa too...?


Because of high prevalence of HIV/AIDS and drug resistant TB...?



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Post by Eilzel on Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:37 am

Tommy Monk wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Isn't that a bit racist?  Or, if not racist, somewhat ethnocentric?  We seem to be heading back into a new wave of nationalism.

No, it isn't.

It wouldn't be banning people 'because they are Chinese'

We'd be banning them because their country has a proven record of being the source of various pandemics. And both their foul wet market places combined with their disgraceful government attempts to suppress mentions of wrong doing and severity make it a danger to the rest of the world.

Is banning US travellers to the EU racist?



Then maybe we should ban travel from Africa too...?


Because of high prevalence of HIV/AIDS and drug resistant TB...?



TB hasn't caused a modern pandemic despite massive movements of Africans around the world.

HIV is only transmissible through serious carelessness on the part on the part of individuals.

Neither are comparable.

10 million infected by Covid. Over 500,000 deaths (likely significantly higher since China numbers are untrustworthy).

And this is just one pandemic and isn't finished by far.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:50 am





HIV/AIDS currently infects an estimated 75million people... And deaths from it have been over a million each year for last couple decades... (apart from last couple years that have been just under a million each year)...



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Post by Eilzel on Tue Jun 30, 2020 3:55 am

Tommy Monk wrote:



HIV/AIDS currently infects an estimated 75million people... And deaths from it have been over a million each year for last couple decades... (apart from last couple years that have been just under a million each year)...



Again though, it can only be gotten by people who are careless, mostly through unprotected sex but also through other methods like sharing syringes.

In any case, you aren't going to get HIV just living your every day life and exercising a bit of caution in very specific circumstances.

Covid doesn't care. You could get it by exchanging money, having a conversation, or even passing someone in a corridor.

EDIT: want to add, without the global lockdowns, Covid deaths could be double what they are, perhaps much higher, and it has been active for around 6 months.

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Post by Tommy Monk on Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:46 am




Are you seriously trying to say everyone who has HIV AIDS has got it by being "careless"...?


And hardly comparable to covid, which is just like having a bit of flu for the 999 in 1000 people who get it...!


But if we banned entry from Africa, where "The rate of infection in some parts of the continent is 100 times higher than in the United States"... And where most of the infected don't even know they've got it... then we protect British people from both infection as well as the tens of thousands of £ in costs of providing treatment for every hiv/aids ridden arrival too!



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Post by Eilzel on Tue Jun 30, 2020 5:00 am

Tommy Monk wrote:


Are you seriously trying to say everyone who has HIV AIDS has got it by being "careless"...?


And hardly comparable to covid, which is just like having a bit of flu for the 999 in 1000 people who get it...!


But if we banned entry from Africa, where "The rate of infection in some parts of the continent is 100 times higher than in the United States"... And where most of the infected don't even know they've got it... then we protect British people from both infection as well as the tens of thousands of £ in costs of providing treatment for every hiv/aids ridden arrival too!



1. Not everyone, but most people who get it in the west yes.

2. 500,000 dead in 6 months, only so low due to lockdown. Not just bird flu for them. Could easily have been millions.

How many HIV infections in the UK are caused by Africans?

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Post by Syl on Tue Jun 30, 2020 12:18 pm

Many people have caught HIV through blood transfusions in the past, or by having the bad luck to be involved with an unfaithful partner, it oftentimes has nothing to do with carelessness.
But it cant be compared to coronavirus, which can be caught simply by breathing the same air of touching something where an infected person has been.

It's certainly not racist to be wary of people travelling from areas where these infections are originating from...which is certain  areas in China.

Same as American visitors  are not presently welcome in EU countries and people travelling from England into Wales are still banned, it's common sense to protect your own area and try to stop infections multiplying.

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Post by Star24 on Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:40 pm

None of these asylum seekers who are
living here in secret, will come forward and
get tested.
I personally think Leicester is just the start of
a second lockdown.

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:41 pm

Syl wrote:It's certainly not racist to be wary of people travelling from areas where these infections are originating from...which is certain  areas in China.

But isn't that because of certain cultural practices in China, which Les raised?  So, indirectly, you are criticizing an ethnicity based upon your own ethnic norms, which is ethnocentrism.

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Post by Syl on Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:33 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:It's certainly not racist to be wary of people travelling from areas where these infections are originating from...which is certain  areas in China.

But isn't that because of certain cultural practices in China, which Les raised?  So, indirectly, you are criticizing an ethnicity based upon your own ethnic norms, which is ethnocentrism.

It could very well be because of certain cultural practices, which in some cases are bloody disgusting.
If you think it's racist to condemn them, and Eilzel listed some of the more extreme, maybe you need to rethink.

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Post by Vintage on Tue Jun 30, 2020 6:55 pm

Ok I admit to that. Many cultures have practices that are disgusting and backwards but these things generally happen to women, children and animals, so I guess you may not be too worried about them.
You are enthusiastic about stopping the bad things happening to black people, can't you spare some thought for the females of the world who have even worse things happen to them, as for the other species on this planet millions of them have short horrific lives and terrible deaths at the hands of supposedly 'civilised' humans.

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Post by Syl on Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:00 pm

Star24 wrote:None of these asylum seekers who are
living here in secret, will come forward and
get tested.
I personally think Leicester is just the start of
a second lockdown.

I wonder why they have suddenly had a huge increase in infections.
It would be very advantageous to know to stop this happening in other towns and cities.



Last edited by Syl on Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:16 pm; edited 2 times in total

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Post by Original Quill on Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:19 pm

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

But isn't that because of certain cultural practices in China, which Les raised?  So, indirectly, you are criticizing an ethnicity based upon your own ethnic norms, which is ethnocentrism.

It could very well be because of certain cultural practices, which in some cases are bloody disgusting.
If you think it's racist to condemn them, and Eilzel listed some  of the more extreme, maybe you need to rethink.

I didn't say racist.  You didn't specify race, but "areas where these infections originate..."  I consider race to be immutable characteristics with which a person is born; areas are not immutable characteristics.  Areas only implicate the culture associated with the region.

I focused on the culture and asked you if you didn't think it was ethnocentric to criticize cultural practices.

You say some cultural practices are disgusting.  Why?

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Post by Victorismyhero on Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:51 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

But isn't that because of certain cultural practices in China, which Les raised?  So, indirectly, you are criticizing an ethnicity based upon your own ethnic norms, which is ethnocentrism.

It could very well be because of certain cultural practices, which in some cases are bloody disgusting.
If you think it's racist to condemn them, and Eilzel listed some  of the more extreme, maybe you need to rethink.

I didn't say racist.  You didn't specify race, but "areas where these infections originate..."  I consider race to be immutable characteristics with which a person is born; areas are not immutable characteristics.  Areas only implicate the culture associated with the region.

I focused on the culture and asked you if you didn't think it was ethnocentric to criticize cultural practices.

You say some cultural practices are disgusting.  Why?

ok lets rephrase what les said, how about "some cultural practices are dangerous"?
given that said dangerous practices actually place me in harms way, I am perfectly entitled to support actions to reduce/remove that harm, in the same way that I am entitled to support (for instance) our armed forces remving an existential threat to me, or an armed officer shooting down say a terrorist.#
If, in order to neutralise that "dangerous cultural practice" we have to refuse entry of the citizens of that culture then so be it......surrendering to an ideology (as you have done) is not an option....pandering to every movement be it BLM (NOTE...as it exists over here ...i.e a vehicle for the marxist left) or any other "radical" bunch of unwashed layabouts.....is NO answer to something as dangerous as this is......


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Post by Syl on Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:06 am

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:

It could very well be because of certain cultural practices, which in some cases are bloody disgusting.
If you think it's racist to condemn them, and Eilzel listed some  of the more extreme, maybe you need to rethink.

I didn't say racist.  You didn't specify race, but "areas where these infections originate..."  I consider race to be immutable characteristics with which a person is born; areas are not immutable characteristics.  Areas only implicate the culture associated with the region.

I focused on the culture and asked you if you didn't think it was ethnocentric to criticize cultural practices.

You say some cultural practices are disgusting.  Why?
Didn't you answer that question yourself last week when you were talking about male circumcision?

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jul 01, 2020 12:49 am

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I didn't say racist.  You didn't specify race, but "areas where these infections originate..."  I consider race to be immutable characteristics with which a person is born; areas are not immutable characteristics.  Areas only implicate the culture associated with the region.

I focused on the culture and asked you if you didn't think it was ethnocentric to criticize cultural practices.

You say some cultural practices are disgusting.  Why?
Didn't you answer that question yourself last week when you were talking about male circumcism?

How can America have an ethnocentric attitude about America?  Ethnocentrism is a tendency to view alien groups or cultures from the perspective of one's own.  Inherent is the idea that there are two or more cultures.

With circumcision, America went through a period in which Americans were hoodwinked by a dingbat, Seventh Day Adventist naturopath, and eventually they worked their way through it.  It was the age of snake-oil salesmen, and America got caught up in some fad.  Even though it was permanent for the individual, the practice never really achieved the status of a cultural ritual.  The best one can say is it was a social transition, like going from horseback to motor car.

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Post by Eilzel on Wed Jul 01, 2020 1:50 am

Eilzel wrote:
Original Quill wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Isn't that a bit racist?  Or, if not racist, somewhat ethnocentric?  We seem to be heading back into a new wave of nationalism.

No, it isn't.

It wouldn't be banning people 'because they are Chinese'

We'd be banning them because their country has a proven record of being the source of various pandemics. And both their foul wet market places combined with their disgraceful government attempts to suppress mentions of wrong doing and severity make it a danger to the rest of the world.

You are attacking ethnic practices that have gone on for thousands of years.  Doesn't this sound a bit ethnocentric?

Les wrote:Is banning US travellers to the EU racist?

Not racist, nor even ethnocentric...unless you want to call Republicanism an ethnicity.

I would like to hear your response to this.  Nationalism, isolationism and racism are what historian Jon Meacham calls 'perennial themes' in America.  Do perennial themes amount to ethnicity in your view?

I'm attacking an ethicpractice (if you want to call it that) which is proven dangerous. I attack circumcision, FGM, India's caste system, the burka and various other things for the same reason.

Would you like to bring back the Hindu cultural practice of wives throwing themselves on their husband's funeral pyre? I presume not. Aspects of some cultures, including our own, are detrimental to society.

None of that is racist. And as someone happy to criticise their own culture, I don't consider it ethnocentric either.

But the areas of cultural criticism I have for England, America or even Saudi Arabia, are not currently killing half a million people and destroying the livelihoods of millions world wide.

I do not think isolationism and Nationalism always amount to ethnicity. I dislike both, but that doesn't mean all those who subscribe to either are racist.

Would love your response to this Quill?

To add, not only do I support the EU imposing a ban on US citizens until Covid is under control there, I'd totally understand the same being done to UK citizens due to our own abysmal performance (though getting better).

Is this ethnocentric? Are we only allowed to condemn our own culture?

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:30 am

Eilzel wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

I'm attacking an ethicpractice (if you want to call it that) which is proven dangerous. I attack circumcision, FGM, India's caste system, the burka and various other things for the same reason.

Would you like to bring back the Hindu cultural practice of wives throwing themselves on their husband's funeral pyre? I presume not. Aspects of some cultures, including our own, are detrimental to society.

None of that is racist. And as someone happy to criticise their own culture, I don't consider it ethnocentric either.

But the areas of cultural criticism I have for England, America or even Saudi Arabia, are not currently killing half a million people and destroying the livelihoods of millions world wide.

I do not think isolationism and Nationalism always amount to ethnicity. I dislike both, but that doesn't mean all those who subscribe to either are racist.

Would love your response to this Quill?

To add, not only do I support the EU imposing a ban on US citizens until Covid is under control there, I'd totally understand the same being done to UK citizens due to our own abysmal performance (though getting better).

Is this ethnocentric? Are we only allowed to condemn our own culture?

I'm not sure I disagree with you.  This is a constant difference that I have with didge, when he criticizes the Muslim treatment of women.  When some religious or ethnic practices violate science, I guess I feel that science is better grounded.

We've had these challenges before in the US.  The LDS have a religious practice of plural marriages and beliefs that a fertile female should be producing children as soon as she goes through puberty.  Hence, they marry 10 & 11-year old's to 40-year old men, creating situations of statutory rape.

Is it ethnocentrism or religious discrimination if we prosecute them?  Ultimately, we had to pass a law.  Like didge with Muslims, we've gotta face the question.  Likewise, we've gotta face the practices with China that create the presence of pandemics.  But how?

China is a nuclear nation.  We've got to move carefully.  What if we say, you've gotta change; and China says, no, you change.

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Post by Eilzel on Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:16 am

Original Quill wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Eilzel wrote:

I'm attacking an ethicpractice (if you want to call it that) which is proven dangerous. I attack circumcision, FGM, India's caste system, the burka and various other things for the same reason.

Would you like to bring back the Hindu cultural practice of wives throwing themselves on their husband's funeral pyre? I presume not. Aspects of some cultures, including our own, are detrimental to society.

None of that is racist. And as someone happy to criticise their own culture, I don't consider it ethnocentric either.

But the areas of cultural criticism I have for England, America or even Saudi Arabia, are not currently killing half a million people and destroying the livelihoods of millions world wide.

I do not think isolationism and Nationalism always amount to ethnicity. I dislike both, but that doesn't mean all those who subscribe to either are racist.

Would love your response to this Quill?

To add, not only do I support the EU imposing a ban on US citizens until Covid is under control there, I'd totally understand the same being done to UK citizens due to our own abysmal performance (though getting better).

Is this ethnocentric? Are we only allowed to condemn our own culture?

I'm not sure I disagree with you.  This is a constant difference that I have with didge, when he criticizes the Muslim treatment of women.  When some religious or ethnic practices violate science, I guess I feel that science is better grounded.

We've had these challenges before in the US.  The LDS have a religious practice of plural marriages and beliefs that a fertile female should be producing children as soon as she goes through puberty.  Hence, they marry 10 & 11-year old's to 40-year old men, creating situations of statutory rape.

Is it ethnocentrism or religious discrimination if we prosecute them?  Ultimately, we had to pass a law.  Like didge with Muslims, we've gotta face the question.  Likewise, we've gotta face the practices with China that create the presence of pandemics.  But how?

China is a nuclear nation.  We've got to move carefully.  What if we say, you've gotta change; and China says, no, you change.

They have no viable reason to ask us to change, though, have they?

Here we have a crystal clear case of a cultural practice leading to a global crisis. If a global crisis which kills 500,000 people (and counting) and could've killed more (millions) were it not for a global shutdown which has crippled economies and doubtless destroyed livelihoods, if this isn't enough to expect change then I don't know what is.

Show me the cultural practice of of any western nation that has led to the same scale of disaster as this in modern times.

It doesn't exist.

China won't 'go nuclear' on other nations over a travel ban. I reckon the oppressive CCP would even love it. They keep tabs on their citizens even better AND paint the outside world as evil Sinophobic foreigners (a narrative which has run through their entire history, ironically, from Qin and his wall, to scuppering their own naval adventures, the century of humiliation, to Mao's nationalism). They'd show their indignation, of course, but they wouldn't risk their own economy by doing anything irrational.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jul 01, 2020 3:36 pm

Les wrote:They have no viable reason to ask us to change, though, have they?

If we ask them to change, and they say no, that is effectively asking us to change. It's a polite way to say they are thumbing their nose at us.

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jul 01, 2020 4:00 pm

Eilzel wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

I'm not sure I disagree with you. This is a constant difference that I have with didge, when he criticizes the Muslim treatment of women. When some religious or ethnic practices violate science, I guess I feel that science is better grounded.

We've had these challenges before in the US. The LDS have a religious practice of plural marriages and beliefs that a fertile female should be producing children as soon as she goes through puberty. Hence, they marry 10 & 11-year old's to 40-year old men, creating situations of statutory rape.

Is it ethnocentrism or religious discrimination if we prosecute them? Ultimately, we had to pass a law. Like didge with Muslims, we've gotta face the question. Likewise, we've gotta face the practices with China that create the presence of pandemics. But how?

China is a nuclear nation. We've got to move carefully. What if we say, you've gotta change; and China says, no, you change.

They have no viable reason to ask us to change, though, have they?

Here we have a crystal clear case of a cultural practice leading to a global crisis. If a global crisis which kills 500,000 people (and counting) and could've killed more (millions) were it not for a global shutdown which has crippled economies and doubtless destroyed livelihoods, if this isn't enough to expect change then I don't know what is.

Show me the cultural practice of of any western nation that has led to the same scale of disaster as this in modern times.

It doesn't exist.

China won't 'go nuclear' on other nations over a travel ban. I reckon the oppressive CCP would even love it. They keep tabs on their citizens even better AND paint the outside world as evil Sinophobic foreigners (a narrative which has run through their entire history, ironically, from Qin and his wall, to scuppering their own naval adventures, the century of humiliation, to Mao's nationalism). They'd show their indignation, of course, but they wouldn't risk their own economy by doing anything irrational.

You and Syl both make an excellent moral argument. But morality carries no weight in international politics, especially when a counter-influence is pushing back, as we have here.

I'm as interested as you in fixing the problem. I solicited your opinions because I don't have the answer. Just as I don't have the answer to the dilemma posed by didge over Muslim treatment of women. I can identify the problem—it's ethnocentrism—but, short of war or some form of coercion, the most I can say is, it's a problem to be solved.

In a clash between practices having international implications, local ethnic customs push back, and if you are trying to change customs in their land, they hold the power.

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Post by Syl on Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:08 pm

But each country also has the power to impose restrictions on their own shores.
And if they choose to ban travellers from certain parts of the world to protect their own country...so be it.

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Post by Syl on Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:18 pm

Syl wrote:
Star24 wrote:None of these asylum seekers who are
living here in secret, will come forward and
get tested.
I personally think Leicester is just the start of
a second lockdown.

I wonder why they have suddenly had a huge increase in infections.
It would be very advantageous to know to stop this happening in other towns and cities.



Seems that some of the sweat shops in Leicester have had staff  carrying on working even though they have had the virus, no quarantine, so social distancing, and no lockdown when some of these  places have been infected.


https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/five-garment-factories-leicester-forced-22273885

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Post by Original Quill on Wed Jul 01, 2020 6:55 pm

Syl wrote:But each country also has the power to impose restrictions on their own shores.
And if they choose to ban travellers from certain parts of the world to protect their own country...so be it.

Those are the "forms of coercion" of which I spoke. Sanctions are as well.

But, as we've seen with Trump, sanctions beget return sanctions, and all you end up doing is shutting down the world, physically and economically.

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Post by Syl on Wed Jul 01, 2020 10:50 pm

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:But each country also has the power to impose restrictions on their own shores.
And if they choose to ban travellers from certain parts of the world to protect their own country...so be it.

Those are the "forms of coercion" of which I spoke.  Sanctions are as well.

But, as we've seen with Trump, sanctions beget return sanctions, and all you end up doing is shutting down the world, physically and economically.
If the virus had been better controlled  and contained from the start  the world wouldn't have been shut down in the first place would it.

Simply put, if one child has an infectious disease you keep him out of circulation till he is none infectious.
If you want other kids to catch the virus, you let him mix.

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Post by eddie on Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:21 am

Syl wrote:
Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:

It could very well be because of certain cultural practices, which in some cases are bloody disgusting.
If you think it's racist to condemn them, and Eilzel listed some  of the more extreme, maybe you need to rethink.

I didn't say racist.  You didn't specify race, but "areas where these infections originate..."  I consider race to be immutable characteristics with which a person is born; areas are not immutable characteristics.  Areas only implicate the culture associated with the region.

I focused on the culture and asked you if you didn't think it was ethnocentric to criticize cultural practices.

You say some cultural practices are disgusting.  Why?
Didn't you answer that question yourself last week when you were talking about male circumcision?

And also when he has stated, many times, that Russians are child-traffickers.

Quill? Want to answer your own question?

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Post by Eilzel on Thu Jul 02, 2020 1:45 am

Original Quill wrote:
Syl wrote:But each country also has the power to impose restrictions on their own shores.
And if they choose to ban travellers from certain parts of the world to protect their own country...so be it.

Those are the "forms of coercion" of which I spoke.  Sanctions are as well.

But, as we've seen with Trump, sanctions beget return sanctions, and all you end up doing is shutting down the world, physically and economically.

If there waa global cooperation, even China would be powerless. But alright, the world could ban travellers from China, and China could ban foreigners entering China.

So be it, as Syl says, probably for the best.

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Jul 02, 2020 2:51 am

Eilzel wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Those are the "forms of coercion" of which I spoke.  Sanctions are as well.

But, as we've seen with Trump, sanctions beget return sanctions, and all you end up doing is shutting down the world, physically and economically.

If there waa global cooperation, even China would be powerless. But alright, the world could ban travellers from China, and China could ban foreigners entering China.

So be it, as Syl says, probably for the best.

Close down the entire world. I see no choice.

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Post by Eilzel on Thu Jul 02, 2020 3:22 am

Original Quill wrote:
Eilzel wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Those are the "forms of coercion" of which I spoke.  Sanctions are as well.

But, as we've seen with Trump, sanctions beget return sanctions, and all you end up doing is shutting down the world, physically and economically.

If there waa global cooperation, even China would be powerless. But alright, the world could ban travellers from China, and China could ban foreigners entering China.

So be it, as Syl says, probably for the best.

Close down the entire world.  I see no choice.

We don't need to close down the world. I feel you are deliberately obfuscating and very hypothetical scenario tbh.

Most/All countries close their borders to China, thus no pandemic is likely to hit the world that originated in China.
China closes its border to the world in response - fine, it's just one country. China suffer more in this exchange.

The rest of the world can continue travelling both ways, the world doesn't close down just because travel is cut off with one place.

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Jul 02, 2020 10:10 am

Eilzel wrote:
Original Quill wrote:

Close down the entire world.  I see no choice.

We don't need to close down the world. I feel you are deliberately obfuscating and very hypothetical scenario tbh.

Most/All countries close their borders to China, thus no pandemic is likely to hit the world that originated in China.
China closes its border to the world in response - fine, it's just one country. China suffer more in this exchange.

The rest of the world can continue travelling both ways, the world doesn't close down just because travel is cut off with one place.

Feasible, maybe.  But, China is the second largest economy in the world.  Do you not think that a lockout of China will cause worldwide destabilization?  Even in the medical area, China manufactures nearly all of our medications.  What about manufactures?  The list goes on.

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Post by nicko on Thu Jul 02, 2020 11:01 am

The Chinese sell mostly crap , use it for a few days ,it gives up or falls to pieces.Their much vaunted Military equipment MAY go the same way when it's put under pressure !
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Post by Syl on Thu Jul 02, 2020 12:06 pm

Why would the entire world need to close down?

We trade all over the world, even with China trade needn't stop. ...it's a lot easier to track and trace cargo that it is to track and trace people.

If people were banned from entering or leaving China it would only be temporary till these virus's are controlled in the places they originated from. it wouldn't be for any reason other than protection of other countries citizens.

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Post by Original Quill on Thu Jul 02, 2020 4:38 pm

Syl wrote:Why would the entire world need to close down?

It's a strong possibility that you would create a domino effect.  We lockout China, China retaliates, and additionally includes nations friendly to the US, whereupon NATO gets involved and they, each, lockout all of their adversaries, it spreads to nation blocks and Muslim nations lockout friends of Israel, or all western nations, and vice-versa, and it escalates until it is worldwide.  That's how hyper-nationalism took hold.  Or, it might take a different path: as soon as someone legitimizes the tactic (closing borders), it gets used elsewhere and everywhere...leading to a worldwide shutdown.  There are a number of possibilities.

Syl wrote:We trade all over the world, even with China trade needn't stop. ...it's a lot easier to track and trace cargo that it is to track and trace people.

If people were banned from entering or leaving China it would only be temporary till these virus's are controlled in the places they originated from. it wouldn't be for any reason other than protection of other countries citizens.

They say that covid-19 will be with us at least several years.  But that is only one virus potentially coming from the Chinese practices.  It could go on forever.

Keep in mind that I’m with you guys.  I’d like to stop diseases from emanating from China, too.  The controversy is over how to do it, and I think that the lockout/sanctions tactic might well backfire.  China is an adversary of the west, but it is also a partner.  Any strong action with China might well push it over the edge, one way or another.

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