When did the Left ditch democracy?

The Left once stood for democracy. In the tradition of the Levellers, the Chartists and the Suffragettes, the British Left once fought to take power away from the elites and dispersed it among the people. The Labour party, when founded by Keir Hardie, stood up for the working man – and woman.

No longer. The Left simply does not trust people.

They have become not merely undemocratic, but anti democratic. Rather than standing up to elites, the Left actively defends the concentration of political and economic power in the hands of an unaccountable few.

Many Lefties opposed the creation of directly elected Police Commissioners. Some did so for the rather bovine reason that it was a Tory idea.  Others remain fearful of what they sneering dismiss as “populism”.

Left wing pundits and campaigners have tried to vilify ordinary mums and dads who have wanted to set up their own free schools. They prefer to side with the education establishment against ordinary people wanting the best for their kids.

Guardianistas remind us daily of their visceral opposition to an EU referendum. They don’t simply distrust the people, but are on the side of unelected Commissioners. Confronted with the Euro crisis, which has seen tens of millions ordinary Europeans impoverished, self-styled “progressives” have put themselves on the same side of the argument as those calling for public money to be used to rescue bankers from their own folly.

The modern Left is no longer socialist, but corporatist. They do not seek public ownership of the means of production.  Instead they stand to create a world in which private meetings between Brussels lobbyists would buy commercial advantage.

Rather than democratise politics, giving everyone say over candidate selection, as the Tory party has begun to do, Labour has given us Falkirk.

There is an essential dishonesty about the British Left today. They know that they cannot obtain a popular mandate for many of the grand schemes they want for us. So they have embraced anti democratic means to impose them instead.

They cannot win the argument for wind turbines, so they foist them on us using hidden subsidies and a local planning process that gives the locals little say. They could never win a mandate for the unrestricted free movement of people into Britain – so they hand control over such matters to unelected officials and judges.

On issue after issue, where they know they cannot win openly, the Left has passed responsibility over to quangocrats and Commissioners, Human Rights lawyers and judicial activists.

The Left obtains by top down decree what they cannot win at the ballot box. And the Right loses, even when we win elections.

Far too many on the right still seek either re-heated Thatcherism or a kind of mid-70s, patrician Toryism. Neither will do.

A truly modern Tory party needs to recognise that we must do battle against the Left not merely for votes on polling day. If the Left has created structures that are beyond meaningful democratic accountability, we must embrace direct democracy.  We must be prepared to re-engineer the machinery of the state – the quangos, the senior civil service, the judiciary – and yes, even Parliament – to make them properly answerable to the rest of us.

Either we do that, or we face more defeat and retreat.

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/douglascarswellmp/100261001/when-did-the-left-ditch-democracy/


A very interesting piece from this man. Do you know he hits the nail right on the head.

Not quite - he is still using left and right and talking as if there is a difference between Labour and Tories when there is not. I love his use of the word corporatist - it perfectly describes the direction of todays politics. The only real difference is Labour is happy to hand the power to corporatists they deem worthy and the Tories want to be the corporatists.

The real question people need to be asking themselves is how big a role do they want governments to play in their day to days lives versus how much individualism. Both Labour and Tory are now parties of the big government with the government having the power to not only suggest how people should live but to force them to live that way - they want a nation of pigeon holed clones.

The party standing against this and offering a real choice is UKIP - which says return power to the individual - make peoples voices count again. Let local people decide on local issues the way they want even if that way is not the safest most environmentally friendly inoffensive politically correct way.

Well I think Carswell is very much on the right of the Tory party not the Europhile loving left like Ken Clarke.

It is so much in keeping with the concerns about ordinary people who do care about politics. How dare the left tell them they are not worthy of a vote on something so fundamental. Whilst I have similar views to you and UKIP I do worry about them going head to head with Eurosceptical candidates on Labours or Tory benches. They would be best to attack the Europhiles if they want to succeed.

The anti democrats of which there are some notable ones on here will succeed if they don't.

Fred Bloggs wrote:Well I think Carswell is very much on the right of the Tory party not the Europhile loving left like Ken Clarke.

It is so much in keeping with the concerns about ordinary people who do care about politics. How dare the left tell them they are not worthy of a vote on something so fundamental. Whilst I have similar views to you and UKIP I do worry about them going head to head with Eurosceptical candidates on Labours or Tory benches. They would be best to attack the Europhiles if they want to succeed.

The anti democrats of which there are some notable ones on here will succeed if they don't.

The thing is they are not just about getting out of the EU - they are about shrinking government, and even euro sceptics in the main parties are not on that page - they simply want to replace the EU with their own power structure.

sphinx wrote:

Fred Bloggs wrote:Well I think Carswell is very much on the right of the Tory party not the Europhile loving left like Ken Clarke.

It is so much in keeping with the concerns about ordinary people who do care about politics. How dare the left tell them they are not worthy of a vote on something so fundamental. Whilst I have similar views to you and UKIP I do worry about them going head to head with Eurosceptical candidates on Labours or Tory benches. They would be best to attack the Europhiles if they want to succeed.

The anti democrats of which there are some notable ones on here will succeed if they don't.

The thing is they are not just about getting out of the EU - they are about shrinking government, and even euro sceptics in the main parties are not on that page - they simply want to replace the EU with their own power structure.

I don't disagree but they will achieve the opposite of all their ambitions and policies unless they are more focussed. The Labour and Liberal benches have made it clear they do not want the electorate to have a say.

Fred Bloggs wrote:

sphinx wrote:

The thing is they are not just about getting out of the EU - they are about shrinking government, and even euro sceptics in the main parties are not on that page - they simply want to replace the EU with their own power structure.

I don't disagree but they will achieve the opposite of all their ambitions and policies unless they are more focussed. The Labour and Liberal benches have made it clear they do not want the electorate to have a say.

Just keep watching - you aint seen nothing yet.

It will be interesting watching the head to head with Cleggy. A miserable excuse for a man and a bigger anti democrat except maybe Milliband you couldn't wish to find.

I don't disagree that Cameron is wanting to get Europe changed just enough to keep us in rather than really seeking fundamental change. I don't disagree that there is considerable energy being exerted by the EU bosses to avoid democracy in all member states. What I don't understand is why many politicians are colluding.

Surely this shouldn't be a right and left issue its a fundamental one. In fairness there are some figures on the Labour benches about 15 in all who share our views. That's pitifully small though.

Fred Bloggs wrote:

sphinx wrote:

Fred Bloggs wrote:Well I think Carswell is very much on the right of the Tory party not the Europhile loving left like Ken Clarke.

It is so much in keeping with the concerns about ordinary people who do care about politics. How dare the left tell them they are not worthy of a vote on something so fundamental. Whilst I have similar views to you and UKIP I do worry about them going head to head with Eurosceptical candidates on Labours or Tory benches. They would be best to attack the Europhiles if they want to succeed.

The anti democrats of which there are some notable ones on here will succeed if they don't.

The thing is they are not just about getting out of the EU - they are about shrinking government, and even euro sceptics in the main parties are not on that page - they simply want to replace the EU with their own power structure.

I don't disagree but they will achieve the opposite of all their ambitions and policies unless they are more focussed. The Labour and Liberal benches have made it clear they do not want the electorate to have a say.

And neither does Cameron but of course his hand was been forced by UKIP and his backbenchers. He renegade on a cast-iron pledge to hold a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty and he also passed up several chances after it was signed to still put one in place.

He bottled it.

Fred, Douglas Carswell would be better focusing on the divisions within his own party before coming out with stuff like democracy - something his own party left behind in 2010 and also in all the U-turns and broken promises they have made since.

Perhaps you'll address the content of the piece. I know you don't acknowledge Labour does anything wrong at any time so lets just pretend we are talking about the left in abstract.

Not very keen on democracy in relation to the EU are they. House of Lords Lib Lab pact to defeat the bill committing the country to a referendum in or out familiar?

Fred Bloggs wrote:Perhaps you'll address the content of the piece. I know you don't acknowledge Labour does anything wrong at any time so lets just pretend we are talking about the left in abstract.

Not very keen on democracy in relation to the EU are they. House of Lords Lib Lab pact to defeat the bill committing the country to a referendum in or out familiar?

But I just commented on the EU part of it by showing that Cameron's hand was forced on that. Just around 18 months ago he was refusing to have an EU referendum because it wasn't Tory policy and he didn't even put it in the Queen's Speech.

He had chances to honour his pledge on the Lisbon Treaty but scurried off to talk to Angela Merkel about it.

All that isn't defending Labour. It's showing Cameron up as a chancer.

I have stated that Cameron is looking to support membership above. He isn't trying to stop a referendum though as your party has done with the liberals.

It doesn't wash IB the Labour party is anti democratic but I know it is pointless arguing that point any further with you so we can agree to differ.

Fred Bloggs wrote:I have stated that Cameron is looking to support membership above. He isn't trying to stop a referendum though as your party has done with the liberals.

It doesn't wash IB the Labour party is anti democratic but I know it is pointless arguing that point any further with you so we can agree to differ.

You keep missing the point in that he was stopping a referendum and that he reneged on his promise to have one over the Lisbon Treaty. The only reason he has now saying he will have one has been explained to you that his hands are tied because it was a private members bill that call for a referendum - not Cameron.

The referendum that was promised by a majority Labour govt and not delivered that one you mean?

Fred Bloggs wrote:The referendum that was promised by a majority Labour govt and not delivered that one you mean?

Show me where Labour promised a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty which wouldn't have been an in out referendum anyway.


And...

David Cameron U-turn denies Britain EU referendum

well we should deny the vote do anyone that thinks in LW/RW terms. that would take out he majority of rusted on voters and those that dont really understand the concepts being discussed. If you only ever think there is 2 options that a mutually exclusive well... you're an idiot.


But on a side Democarcy can not work while people deny reality, how can we can get a logical opinion from someone that beleives in magic and that everything is the plan of some skygiant, that already knows the answers. Once someone expresses that, their opinion is worthless. We followed their opinoins for centuries and 3 out 20 babies died before they were ones years old and 3 out 10 before they were adults, because Praying to a skygiant to to fix and look after things Doesn't work, Hundreds of years with Millions of Dead babies to prove it. People who at least accept Science and Evolution, even if the don't fully understand it, at least allow us to progess forward and do not try and drag us back to an era when over 30 times the amount of babies died before their first birthday.

Irn Bru wrote:

Fred Bloggs wrote:The referendum that was promised by a majority Labour govt and not delivered that one you mean?

Show me where Labour promised a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty which wouldn't have been an in out referendum anyway.


And...

David Cameron U-turn denies Britain EU referendum

Deflection central they promised a referendum on Lisbon. You are wasting everyones time they know. Do you always treat everyone as if they are as deluded as you?

Lisbon never needed a referendum and was not an in/out decision.

kevins58 wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:

Fred Bloggs wrote:The referendum that was promised by a majority Labour govt and not delivered that one you mean?

Show me where Labour promised a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty which wouldn't have been an in out referendum anyway.


And...

David Cameron U-turn denies Britain EU referendum

Deflection central they promised a referendum on Lisbon. You are wasting everyones time they know. Do you always treat everyone as if they are as deluded as you?

No they did not. That was Cameron that promised that and reneged on it even after it had been signed despite still being able to do so.

The only way people learn is by fucking up; let democracy reign. It's the least worst of all the political systems.

I say this as someone who lived under the rule George W. Bush.

Ben_Reilly wrote:The only way people learn is by fucking up; let democracy reign. It's the least worst of all the political systems.

I say this as someone who lived under the rule George W. Bush.

What about Reagan what did you think of him?

You do know the trouble is these days too many politicians are big state orientated and it's difficult to get some clear blue water between them. Big state big budgets suck the life out of economies and there is no bigger state and mishandled budgets than the EU. Why do politicians and lefties favour big state we know it collapses under it's own weight in the end.

Ben_Reilly wrote:The only way people learn is by fucking up; let democracy reign. It's the least worst of all the political systems.

I say this as someone who lived under the rule George W. Bush.

Totally wrong Ben.

You can observe other people messing up, read about others messing up and learn by that.

BigAndy9 wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:The only way people learn is by fucking up; let democracy reign. It's the least worst of all the political systems.

I say this as someone who lived under the rule George W. Bush.

Totally wrong Ben.

You can observe other people messing up, read about others messing up and learn by that.

Agree with Andy

Technocrats learn through Scientific modelling  ::D:: 

Humans are capable of learning from far more than just experience

Fred Bloggs wrote:
" The Left once again stand for democracy. In the tradition of the Levellers, the Chartists and the Suffragettes, the British Left will fight to take power away from the elitist Tories and disperse it among the people. The Labour party stands up for the working man – and woman..............


A truly modern Tory party needs to recognise that we must do battle for votes on polling day.............

We must be prepared to re-engineer the machinery of the state – the quangos, the senior civil service, the judiciary – and yes, even Parliament – to make them properly answerable to the rest us Tory elites.

Either we do that, or we face more defeat and retreat. "

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/douglascarswellmp/100261001/when-did-the-left-ditch-democracy/

A very interesting piece from this man. Do you know he hits the nail right on the head.

  

ONCE again Bloggsy/Drinky demonstrates just how deeply he has embraced the dark side...

 ::rfth::

kevins58 wrote:

Irn Bru wrote:
Show me where Labour promised a referendum on the Lisbon Treaty which wouldn't have been an in out referendum anyway.

And...

David Cameron U-turn denies Britain EU referendum

Deflection central am I.... Nobody promised a referendum on Lisbon. I'm lying off my face, again...

We R/W Trolls are wasting everyones time again you know.
Do we always treat everyone else as if they are as deluded as us?

OF COURSE we do!

  

veya_victaous wrote:

BigAndy9 wrote:

Ben_Reilly wrote:The only way people learn is by fucking up; let democracy reign. It's the least worst of all the political systems.

I say this as someone who lived under the rule George W. Bush.

Totally wrong Ben.

You can observe other people messing up, read about others messing up and learn by that.

Agree with Andy

Technocrats learn through Scientific modelling  ::D:: 

Humans are capable of learning from far more than just experience

Some? Yes. Most? I have my doubts.