After more female engineering and IT students, Sydney university lowers entry bar

by Guest Thu Aug 29, 2019 1:16 pm

Women applying to study engineering and information technology at the University of Technology Sydney (UTS) next year will receive 10 more entry points than their male counterparts, in what the university believes is a first of its kind bid to remedy the under-enrollment of women in these fields.

According to Engineers Australia, women represent approximately 18.9 per cent of engineering graduates, which appears to translate into an under-representation in the workforce, with women making up just 13 per cent of the industry.

"In order to step-change gender diversity in these professions, the gender mix at undergraduate entry-level needs to change," director of UTS Women in Engineering and IT Arti Agarwal said.

https://www.sbs.com.au/news/after-more-female-engineering-and-it-students-sydney-university-lowers-entry-bar

What an insult to women and very much discriminating against men.

It also fails to understand why people go into certain fields. This will fail to balance this out but ensure men will miss out based on some discrmimative policy. What gets me is why this is never done the same for men in fields they are very much less in. Like Nursing and the social sciences. It seems the attempt to balance things out only favours women and not men. When they are under represented in certain fields. You cannot change the balance with such measures. As people have to want to go into this fields.

by Original Quill Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:05 pm

phil wrote:What an insult to women and very much discriminating against men.

It looks to be a remedial measure. If so, then the insult to women occurred ages ago when it was deemed not to be a profession for which women were fit.

Accordingly, if men reaped an unfair advantage, they must give back what they owe.

by Guest Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:41 pm

And this is why Quill has the intellect of a toddler

This is about women being encouraged to take on engineering.

Men never had any advantage, because women just never took up these roles in the main and still do not to this day

For fuck sake, and this is what many people are coming to see the regressive left as the new enemies of reason and science

by Maddog Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:42 pm

My daughter has an engineering degree. She earned it the old fashioned way.

No doubt there were not that many girls in her class. That's was their choice.

by Guest Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:45 pm

Maddog wrote:My daughter has an engineering degree. She earned it the old fashioned way.

No doubt there were not that many girls in her class. That's was their choice.

Exactly and that is the reality. Its a choice people make whether to go into or not.

by Maddog Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:49 pm

phildidge wrote:
Maddog wrote:My daughter has an engineering degree. She earned it the old fashioned way.

No doubt there were not that many girls in her class. That's was their choice.

Exactly and that is the reality. Its a choice people make whether to go into or not.

I think there is some sort of predisposition to math in boys.

I have 3 daughters and the other 2 took as little math as possible. They were all raised in the same environment.

by Guest Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:54 pm

Maddog wrote:
phildidge wrote:

Exactly and that is the reality. Its a choice people make whether to go into or not.

I think there is some sort of predisposition to math in boys.

I have 3 daughters and the other 2 took as little math as possible. They were all raised in the same environment.

Agreed as psychologically there is some differences in what kind of roles. Men and women generally are drawn to. With women its mainly people orientated roles.

by Tommy Monk Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:09 pm

It seems that the lefty twats in charge truly believe that 2+2=5... as... "we are all equal... but some are more equal than others"...!

by Original Quill Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:18 pm

phildidge wrote:And this is why Quill has the intellect of a toddler

Oh my, you seemed to have missed the point. I'm explaining the rationale, not advocating for it.

But, you always do chase down needless rabbit holes.

by 'Wolfie Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:27 am

UTS aren't doing themselves any favours by lowering their standards for their Engineering faculty...

Not that it really matters -- both the Melbourne Institute of Technology (MIT !) and Newcastle Uni' already have more highly regarded schools of Engineering..

*************************************************

Trust Dodge to drag his "regressive far left wing extermists" into the argument -- conveniently ignoring the fact that problem of "dumbing down" of so many young people today, along with the general lack of interest in science and maths by girls and women, is a widespread problem across many western and first world countries.

And all the while, the likes of India, China and South Korea are forging ahead in the Engineering and Technology stakes..

by Guest Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:22 am

And wetwipe conviently ignores that many Universities and schools and run in a majority by leftist and Marxist, professors, teachers etc, but hey ho. Wetwipe wants to ignore this inconvient fact

by 'Wolfie Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:36 am

phildidge wrote:And wetwipe conviently ignores that many Universities and schools and run in a majority by leftist and Marxist, professors, teachers etc, but hey ho. Wetwipe wants to ignore this inconvient fact

Not in Australia yet, they're not, you silly little Chicken Little snowflake...

Just because your favourite British and Israeli universities are being run by your so-called "Marxists" doesn't mean they have taken over the rest of the world..

Those extreme left-wing nutters may be heading up some faculties in some North American and Aussie uni's, but they still have a long way to go before they reach your hysterical imagined takeovers.

by nicko Fri Aug 30, 2019 9:54 am

That's your problem Wolfie, it's happening under your nose ,but your too thick to notice it !

by Guest Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:38 am

'Wolfie wrote:
phildidge wrote:And wetwipe conviently ignores that many Universities and schools and run in a majority by leftist and Marxist, professors, teachers etc, but hey ho. Wetwipe wants to ignore this inconvient fact

Not in Australia yet, they're not, you silly little Chicken Little snowflake...

Just because your favourite British and Israeli universities are being run by your so-called "Marxists" doesn't mean they have taken over the rest of the world..

Those extreme left-wing nutters may be heading up some faculties in some North American and Aussie uni's, but they still have a long way to go before they reach your hysterical imagined takeovers.

Israel? What do they have to do with anything here?

As to North America

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/09/the-neo-marxist-takeover-of-our-universities/

https://www.academia.org/self-identifying-marxist-professors-outnumber-conservatives-as-college-professors/

https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7678

by Original Quill Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:06 pm

phildidge wrote:And wetwipe conviently ignores that many Universities and schools and run in a majority by leftist and Marxist, professors, teachers etc, but hey ho. Wetwipe wants to ignore this inconvient fact

Any substantiation? Or is that just another Hitlerian assumption you live by.

by Guest Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:48 pm

phildidge wrote:
'Wolfie wrote:

Not in Australia yet, they're not, you silly little Chicken Little snowflake...

Just because your favourite British and Israeli universities are being run by your so-called "Marxists" doesn't mean they have taken over the rest of the world..

Those extreme left-wing nutters may be heading up some faculties in some North American and Aussie uni's, but they still have a long way to go before they reach your hysterical imagined takeovers.

Israel? What do they have to do with anything here?

As to North America

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/09/the-neo-marxist-takeover-of-our-universities/

https://www.academia.org/self-identifying-marxist-professors-outnumber-conservatives-as-college-professors/

https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7678

by Guest Fri Aug 30, 2019 4:50 pm

phildidge wrote:
phildidge wrote:

Israel? What do they have to do with anything here?

As to North America

https://www.spectator.co.uk/2018/09/the-neo-marxist-takeover-of-our-universities/

https://www.academia.org/self-identifying-marxist-professors-outnumber-conservatives-as-college-professors/

https://www.campusreform.org/?ID=7678

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/03/02/eight-ten-british-university-lecturers-left-wing-survey-finds/

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/02/27/research-confirms-professors-lean-left-questions-assumptions-about-what-means

by Original Quill Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:24 pm

As I suspected, your so-called proof is no more than gossip. Survey research is an opinion-based inquiry, not an inquiry into the truth of the matter asserted.

For example:

1. Reality says if you jump off a 1,000' cliff, you will die.

2. Survey research says 75% of respondents think if you jump off a 1,000' cliff you will die.

The two are obviously not the same. Reality has an existence of it's own, independent of opinion research.

Your news reports and survey research summaries don’t even begin to look into reality. It's all opinion.

by Guest Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:28 pm

And there you have it, countless studies all showing the same thing and again Quill shows up his poor intellect yet again

I can post many many more, but you never can convince people of stupidity. Even when you present them with hard data

Anyway, am really not trying to convince the imbicille. Its there for others to see and then to snigger at Quill stupidity lol

by Guest Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:34 pm

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Political_beliefs_of_academics

by Original Quill Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:38 pm

phildidge wrote:And there you have it, countless studies all showing the same thing and again Quill shows up his poor intellect yet again

I can post many many more, but you never can convince people of stupidity. Even when you present them with hard data

Anyway, am really not trying to convince the imbicille. Its there for others to see and then to snigger at Quill stupidity lol

PHONY! You've been refuted and rejected, and still you have no answer. Rolling Eyes

by Guest Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:42 pm

phildidge wrote:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Political_beliefs_of_academics

by Original Quill Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:48 pm

phildidge wrote:
phildidge wrote:

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Political_beliefs_of_academics

More survey research, didge. You can't make a silk purse out of a sow's ear. Rolling Eyes

by Guest Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:51 pm

Hilarious and shows someone does not even understand what a study group is lol

by Guest Fri Aug 30, 2019 5:57 pm

by Original Quill Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:36 pm

phildidge wrote:Hilarious and shows someone does not even understand what a study group is lol

What is a study group, didge, and how does it prove your point?

Is it like a bible study group? You go out and count how many Christians there are, and ask they if they believe in the old man in the sky myth? If they say 'yes' they go in one column, and if they say 'no' they go in the other...is that how it works? And then you, didge, go forth and proclaim you have proven the existence of god via survey research? Rolling Eyes

That sounds a lot like your survey research inquiry into university teachers.

by Guest Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:40 pm

https://www.adamsmith.org/research/lackademia-why-do-academics-lean-left

https://fee.org/articles/why-most-academics-tilt-left/

by Original Quill Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:49 pm

phildidge wrote:https://www.adamsmith.org/research/lackademia-why-do-academics-lean-left

https://fee.org/articles/why-most-academics-tilt-left/

Survey research methodology again? We're on to study groups now, and you haven't answered my question.

What is a study group, and how does it prove the existence of a god?

by Guest Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:53 pm

phildidge wrote:https://www.adamsmith.org/research/lackademia-why-do-academics-lean-left

https://fee.org/articles/why-most-academics-tilt-left/

by Original Quill Fri Aug 30, 2019 6:56 pm

phildidge wrote:
phildidge wrote:https://www.adamsmith.org/research/lackademia-why-do-academics-lean-left

https://fee.org/articles/why-most-academics-tilt-left/

And about god? What does your survey research methodology say about his existence?

Rolling Eyes

by Guest Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:06 pm

https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Political_beliefs_of_academics#Statistics

lol!

by Guest Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:08 pm

https://heterodoxacademy.org/professors-moved-left-but-country-did-not/

lol!

by Original Quill Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:11 pm

phildidge wrote:https://heterodoxacademy.org/professors-moved-left-but-country-did-not/

God? Survey research says he is on 56.8% extant. Better luck in the next poll.

by Ben Reilly Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:17 pm

Wow, look, it's an experiment. I think it's safe to assume they're not going to give female students an extra 10 points in each class as well, right? They're still going to have to master the same material as the male students, they're just given a little incentive to give engineering a whirl.

Eddie's faster at mental math than I am, so whether there's a general tendency for women to struggle with math, no individual woman or girl should be discouraged from studying it. The fact that there was a talking Barbie that said "Math class is tough!" shows that there is a stereotype that women can't do math.

And the great thing about experimenting is that if it doesn't work, you just try something else, having learned something you didn't know before. Better to give something a try than to decide what the answer is in a snap judgement.

by Maddog Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:21 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Wow, look, it's an experiment. I think it's safe to assume they're not going to give female students an extra 10 points in each class as well, right? They're still going to have to master the same material as the male students, they're just given a little incentive to give engineering a whirl.

Eddie's faster at mental math than I am, so whether there's a general tendency for women to struggle with math, no individual woman or girl should be discouraged from studying it. The fact that there was a talking Barbie that said "Math class is tough!" shows that there is a stereotype that women can't do math.

And the great thing about experimenting is that if it doesn't work, you just try something else, having learned something you didn't know before. Better to give something a try than to decide what the answer is in a snap judgement.

The experiment needs to be done long before university. Students need the math background before they get there, and there is nothing stopping girls from getting that background, in Western countries.

No one is discouraged from taking physics in high school, as long ad they could handle the prerequiste.

by Maddog Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:26 pm

My daughter would be irritated as hell if her Engineering degree were watered down by giving the girls a break. She competed straight up with the boys and kicked many of their asses. She would hate to think that she won on an un-level playing field and has a tainted degree based on her gender.

by Guest Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:30 pm

Maddog wrote:My daughter would be irritated as hell if her Engineering degree were watered down by giving the girls a break. She competed straight up with the boys and kicked many of their asses. She would hate to think that she won on an un-level playing field and has a tainted degree based on her gender.

+1

by Ben Reilly Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:33 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:Wow, look, it's an experiment. I think it's safe to assume they're not going to give female students an extra 10 points in each class as well, right? They're still going to have to master the same material as the male students, they're just given a little incentive to give engineering a whirl.

Eddie's faster at mental math than I am, so whether there's a general tendency for women to struggle with math, no individual woman or girl should be discouraged from studying it. The fact that there was a talking Barbie that said "Math class is tough!" shows that there is a stereotype that women can't do math.

And the great thing about experimenting is that if it doesn't work, you just try something else, having learned something you didn't know before. Better to give something a try than to decide what the answer is in a snap judgement.

The experiment needs to be done long before university. Students need the math background before they get there, and there is nothing stopping girls from getting that background, in Western countries.

No one is discouraged from taking physics in high school, as long ad they could handle the prerequiste.

I agree it should start earlier, but I do think there is a societal thing where girls aren't supposed to worry about being good at math. I've definitely seen it over and over in my own life.

It all goes back to the stories we tell and the stories we omit. The movie "Hidden Figures" only came out three years ago, and before then, how many stories about black female mathematicians were there, in wide circulation?

by Ben Reilly Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:34 pm

Maddog wrote:My daughter would be irritated as hell if her Engineering degree were watered down by giving the girls a break. She competed straight up with the boys and kicked many of their asses. She would hate to think that she won on an un-level playing field and has a tainted degree based on her gender.

Well, just because she'd be offended doesn't make her right, right? Her feelings shouldn't dictate whether a program that helps women is enacted, in my humble opinion.

by Guest Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:36 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:Wow, look, it's an experiment. I think it's safe to assume they're not going to give female students an extra 10 points in each class as well, right? They're still going to have to master the same material as the male students, they're just given a little incentive to give engineering a whirl.

Eddie's faster at mental math than I am, so whether there's a general tendency for women to struggle with math, no individual woman or girl should be discouraged from studying it. The fact that there was a talking Barbie that said "Math class is tough!" shows that there is a stereotype that women can't do math.

And the great thing about experimenting is that if it doesn't work, you just try something else, having learned something you didn't know before. Better to give something a try than to decide what the answer is in a snap judgement.

Why is it ever only done for women and not fields that men do not enter much into?

Can you see how such thinking is very one sided and will fail to balance anyway

The reality is more about what interests people and that is something you cannot force onto people

They either have an interest or gain an interest in something

by Guest Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:51 pm

I mean for example, more women go to University than men today in many countries. Australia included

https://melbourne-cshe.unimelb.edu.au/lh-martin-institute/insights/gender-enrolment-trends-flarkins

Is this not going to push out even more men from Universities?
Hence again why is such proposals only for women and not for men in fields theyare vastly unrepresented?
It shows the stark reality of men being pushed to the back of the que on everything. The entry levels should be the same for both males and females.

Like Maddog said, and as i said already. This is insulting to women. Espically those who have achieved and excelled at Engineering

by Ben Reilly Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:09 pm

phildidge wrote:I mean for example, more women go to University than men today in many countries. Australia included

https://melbourne-cshe.unimelb.edu.au/lh-martin-institute/insights/gender-enrolment-trends-flarkins

Is this not going to push out even more men from Universities?
Hence again why is such proposals only for women and not for men in fields theyare vastly unrepresented?
It shows the stark reality of men being pushed to the back of the que on everything. The entry levels should be the same for both males and females.

Like Maddog said, and as i said already. This is insulting to women. Espically those who have achieved and excelled at Engineering

Somebody really smart said that to people accustomed to being privileged, equality feels like oppression. I think we see a lot of that these days.

Funny how we say that women choose not to major in engineering, but we don't say the same thing about men not going to university. Apparently the first is a choice, but the second is a societal ill ...

Maybe it would be wiser to investigate the reasons people make such choices in the first place. And of course, to not pretend that all choices are made within a vacuum.

by Original Quill Fri Aug 30, 2019 11:35 pm

Maddog wrote:My daughter would be irritated as hell if her Engineering degree were watered down by giving the girls a break. She competed straight up with the boys and kicked many of their asses. She would hate to think that she won on an un-level playing field and has a tainted degree based on her gender.

She’s accomplished it, and that’s a wonderful thing. Let me give you a different take: future policies are none of her business. She's graduated, got her degree, and has no property interest in anyone else's credentials.

As any capitalist will tell you, if you don't buy it, sell it or inherit it, you’ve got nothing to do with it. G'wan about your own business.

by Guest Sat Aug 31, 2019 2:22 am

Ben Reilly wrote:
phildidge wrote:I mean for example, more women go to University than men today in many countries. Australia included

https://melbourne-cshe.unimelb.edu.au/lh-martin-institute/insights/gender-enrolment-trends-flarkins

Is this not going to push out even more men from Universities?
Hence again why is such proposals only for women and not for men in fields theyare vastly unrepresented?
It shows the stark reality of men being pushed to the back of the que on everything. The entry levels should be the same for both males and females.

Like Maddog said, and as i said already. This is insulting to women. Espically those who have achieved and excelled at Engineering

Somebody really smart said that to people accustomed to being privileged, equality feels like oppression. I think we see a lot of that these days.

Funny how we say that women choose not to major in engineering, but we don't say the same thing about men not going to university. Apparently the first is a choice, but the second is a societal ill ...

Maybe it would be wiser to investigate the reasons people make such choices in the first place. And of course, to not pretend that all choices are made within a vacuum.

Which is the point and hence why such measures are simple bad ideas, because again one group will awlays end up coming off worse by such mesaures. The view should be on choices, which as Scandinavian countries have shown. The more egalitarian the societies have become, the bigger the gap has become in gender differences. Where people rightly have more choices, the more they chose fields of their choices. Which again fit into groups associated with each sex.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2018/02/the-more-gender-equality-the-fewer-women-in-stem/553592/

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/when-times-are-good-the-gender-gap-grows/

by Original Quill Sat Aug 31, 2019 3:04 am

We already use self-reflecting "measures" in our own thinking and teaching. One reason why we recruit others, somewhat arbitrarily, is we could use a little refreshment in our own perspectives.

by Maddog Sat Aug 31, 2019 6:38 pm

Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:My daughter would be irritated as hell if her Engineering degree were watered down by giving the girls a break. She competed straight up with the boys and kicked many of their asses. She would hate to think that she won on an un-level playing field and has a tainted degree based on her gender.

Well, just because she'd be offended doesn't make her right, right? Her feelings shouldn't dictate whether a program that helps women is enacted, in my humble opinion.

It's not helping women if it cheapens their accomplishments.

by Ben Reilly Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:05 pm

Maddog wrote:
Ben Reilly wrote:
Maddog wrote:My daughter would be irritated as hell if her Engineering degree were watered down by giving the girls a break. She competed straight up with the boys and kicked many of their asses. She would hate to think that she won on an un-level playing field and has a tainted degree based on her gender.

Well, just because she'd be offended doesn't make her right, right? Her feelings shouldn't dictate whether a program that helps women is enacted, in my humble opinion.

It's not helping women if it cheapens their accomplishments.

Okay, let's compare her engineering degree to winning the Super Bowl.

Now, to be eligible to win the Super Bowl, you have to be a team in the National Football League.

But what if literally any football team, say, made up of players 18 years and older, could compete in the NFL?

They all had to play one another, just like in the NFL now, and earn the right to play for the championship.

If they did this next year, and a great college team won the Super Bowl, would that cheapen the accomplishments of the New England Patriots?

I say all this just to illustrate my point from before -- just because more women can get into the program now doesn't mean they're going to get any other help earning the degree. So what does it matter if they're allowed to try?

Even if your daughter met a woman who got her degree because the school made it easier to get into the program, all she could say would be, "Well, my program was harder to get into than hers," not, "Well, she didn't have to learn all the stuff I did to get that degree."

Right?

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