HERE'S ONE FOR ANDY...

Rare treat for me today, Andy.

Your Avatar (or at least what appeared to be a late clipped wing version of it) overflew me at quite low altitude while I was sloshing preservative paint on my barn.

I heard an aircraft engine in the distance and was thinking "...that's a bloody Rolls Royce Merlin..." when the thing shot over me and disappeared low across the fields.

I almost fell off my bloody ladder!

Not being too far from the Imperial War Museum at Duxford and also the Shuttleworth Collection of Historic Aircraft airfield in Bedfordshire I'm lucky enough to see some rare aerial sights above my house, which being out in the sticks is not affected by minimum altitude regulations. One recent one was a sinister black matt painted Lysander, the wartime short landing/take-off plane that was used to land spies on enemy-occupied territory.

Fred Moletrousers wrote:Rare treat for me today, Andy.

Your Avatar (or at least what appeared to be a late clipped wing version of it) overflew me at quite low altitude while I was sloshing preservative paint on my barn.

I heard an aircraft engine in the distance and was thinking "...that's a bloody Rolls Royce Merlin..." when the thing shot over me  and disappeared low across the fields.

I almost fell off my bloody ladder!

Not being too far from the Imperial War Museum at Duxford and also the Shuttleworth Collection of Historic Aircraft airfield in Bedfordshire I'm lucky enough to see some rare aerial sights above my house, which being out in the sticks is not affected by minimum altitude regulations. One recent one was a sinister black matt painted Lysander, the wartime  short landing/take-off plane that was used to land spies on enemy-occupied territory.

when I worked near filton in bristol I was regularly treated to displays from spitfires as they were often overhauled there. Also there was a time when the the F1-11 was serviced in filton and we would see those doing shakedown flights in the area. We also got to see the Guppy fly in on a regular basis. And I was there on the day concorde took its last flight into filton accompanied by spitfire. I also saw the first concorde fly out of filton in the late 60's or early 70's after having been inside it when it was being built. My step dad was working at filton at the time.

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:Rare treat for me today, Andy.

Your Avatar (or at least what appeared to be a late clipped wing version of it) overflew me at quite low altitude while I was sloshing preservative paint on my barn.

I heard an aircraft engine in the distance and was thinking "...that's a bloody Rolls Royce Merlin..." when the thing shot over me  and disappeared low across the fields.

I almost fell off my bloody ladder!

Not being too far from the Imperial War Museum at Duxford and also the Shuttleworth Collection of Historic Aircraft airfield in Bedfordshire I'm lucky enough to see some rare aerial sights above my house, which being out in the sticks is not affected by minimum altitude regulations. One recent one was a sinister black matt painted Lysander, the wartime  short landing/take-off plane that was used to land spies on enemy-occupied territory.

when I worked near filton in bristol I was regularly treated to displays from spitfires as they were often overhauled there. Also there was a time when the the F1-11 was serviced in filton and we would see those doing shakedown flights in the area. We also got to see the Guppy fly in on a regular basis. And I was there on the day concorde took its last flight into filton accompanied by spitfire. I also saw the first concorde fly out of filton in the late 60's or early 70's after having been inside it when it was being built. My step dad was working at filton at the time.

I hugely regret never having flown in Concorde. I have been in one on the ground, and was amazed at how narrow the cabin was and how cramped things were. The price to be paid for supersonic flight, I suppose.

'Er indoors, on the other hand, actually won a short flight in one in a competition...and was utterly underwhelmed!

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

The Devil, You Know wrote:
when I worked near filton in bristol I was regularly treated to displays from spitfires as they were often overhauled there. Also there was a time when the the F1-11 was serviced in filton and we would see those doing shakedown flights in the area. We also got to see the Guppy fly in on a regular basis. And I was there on the day concorde took its last flight into filton accompanied by spitfire. I also saw the first concorde fly out of filton in the late 60's or early 70's after having been inside it when it was being built. My step dad was working at filton at the time.

I hugely regret never having flown in Concorde. I have been in one on the ground, and was amazed at how narrow the cabin was and how cramped things were. The price to be paid for supersonic flight, I suppose.

'Er indoors, on the other hand, actually won a short flight in one in a competition...and was utterly underwhelmed!

I thought the same thing as a youngster and that was without any seats in it.

My Father worked at Castle Bromwich Aero in the War . He was one of the men who designed and perfected the Fuel Injection System for the Spitfires !
[just thought I'd mention it]

nicko wrote:My Father worked at Castle Bromwich Aero in the War .  He was one of the men who designed and perfected the Fuel Injection System for the Spitfires !
          [just thought I'd mention it]

Glad you did mention it mate. The switch from the traditional carburretor system to fuel injection probably saved our skins in WW2 because the Me109s were at the time proving to be superior.

And am I right in thinking that it was a woman engineer who finally cracked it? Maybe your dad was a colleague of hers.

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

nicko wrote:My Father worked at Castle Bromwich Aero in the War .  He was one of the men who designed and perfected the Fuel Injection System for the Spitfires !
          [just thought I'd mention it]

Glad you did mention it mate. The switch from the traditional carburretor system to fuel injection probably saved our skins in WW2 because the Me109s were at the time proving to be superior.

And am I right in thinking that it was a woman engineer who finally cracked it? Maybe your dad was a colleague of hers.

You are correct sir

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-40267364

Thor wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Glad you did mention it mate. The switch from the traditional carburretor system to fuel injection probably saved our skins in WW2 because the Me109s were at the time proving to be superior.

And am I right in thinking that it was a woman engineer who finally cracked it? Maybe your dad was a colleague of hers.

You are correct sir

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-40267364

Thank you. I do get things right sometimes!

I am so bloody old that when I was in the RAF a few Spits were still operational (albeit unofficially). I believe that they were used for photo reconnaissance (a role in which they were unmatched during the war) and meteorological work.

I have a vague recollection of a station commander being disciplined because he somehow managed to keep one as his own "official vehicle" for some time after they had all been recalled for de-commissioning and scrapage.

Bloody sacrilege!

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Thor wrote:

You are correct sir

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-40267364

Thank you. I do get things right sometimes!

I am so bloody old that when I was in the RAF a few Spits were still operational (albeit unofficially). I believe that they were used for photo reconnaissance (a role in which they were unmatched during the war) and meteorological  work.

I have a vague recollection of a station commander being disciplined because he somehow managed to keep one as his own "official vehicle" for some time after they had all been recalled for de-commissioning and scrapage.

Bloody sacrilege!

To me it was the best fighter plane of WW2 and I base this on its operational service and combat record
Even many of the Germans dreaded more coming up against the Spitfire. Even the yanks fought it was better. It even more has a greater attachment for me, in its defense of Malta. When the fighter pilots in Hurricans as well, were vastly out numbered. Yet they never shied away from taking to the air against the odds. I think George Burling (may have spelt his name wrong, unsure), was the top ace on the island

I also have a foundness for the de Havilland Mosquito

I watched a few years back a documentry called "Above and Beyond"

That shows the volunteers that came to Israel to fly in its defense.
To start with they had makeshift ME 109's, that were litteraly put together with spare parts. Then later Spitfires, being up against Egyptian Spitfires. Which shows it was then a contest of the pilots being matched by the same aircraft. If you ever get a chance, you should watch it Fred. I think its only one of the few occasions, Spitfires were matched against each other.

Thor wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Thank you. I do get things right sometimes!

I am so bloody old that when I was in the RAF a few Spits were still operational (albeit unofficially). I believe that they were used for photo reconnaissance (a role in which they were unmatched during the war) and meteorological  work.

I have a vague recollection of a station commander being disciplined because he somehow managed to keep one as his own "official vehicle" for some time after they had all been recalled for de-commissioning and scrapage.

Bloody sacrilege!

To me it was the best fighter plane of WW2 and I base this on its operational service and combat record
Even many of the Germans dreaded more coming up against the Spitfire. Even the yanks fought it was better. It even more has a greater attachment for me, in its defense of Malta. When the fighter pilots in Hurricans as well, were vastly out numbered. Yet they never shied away from taking to the air against the odds. I think George Burling (may have spelt his name wrong, unsure), was the top ace on the island

I also have a foundness for the de Havilland Mosquito

I watched a few years back a documentry called "Above and Beyond"

That shows the volunteers that came to Israel to fly in its defense.
To start with they had makeshift ME 109's, that were litteraly put together with spare parts. Then later Spitfires, being up against Egyptian Spitfires. Which shows it was then a contest of the pilots being matched by the same aircraft. If you ever get a chance, you should watch it Fred. I think its only one of the few occasions, Spitfires were matched against each other.

Just looked this up and they were not Egyptian, but the RAF. It was a case of mistaken identity and 3 were shot down by the two Israeli fighters. One being a Canadian ace. Which I guess made all the difference in combat experince in WW2

https://www.historynet.com/spitfire-vs-spitfire-aerial-combat-israels-war-independence.htm

I really fought it was Egyptian fighters that were taken down, but I clearly was wrong

It has been a couple of years since I watched the documentary.

Thor wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Thank you. I do get things right sometimes!

I am so bloody old that when I was in the RAF a few Spits were still operational (albeit unofficially). I believe that they were used for photo reconnaissance (a role in which they were unmatched during the war) and meteorological  work.

I have a vague recollection of a station commander being disciplined because he somehow managed to keep one as his own "official vehicle" for some time after they had all been recalled for de-commissioning and scrapage.

Bloody sacrilege!

To me it was the best fighter plane of WW2 and I base this on its operational service and combat record
Even many of the Germans dreaded more coming up against the Spitfire. Even the yanks fought it was better. It even more has a greater attachment for me, in its defense of Malta. When the fighter pilots in Hurricans as well, were vastly out numbered. Yet they never shied away from taking to the air against the odds. I think George Burling (may have spelt his name wrong, unsure), was the top ace on the island

I also have a foundness for the de Havilland Mosquito

I watched a few years back a documentry called "Above and Beyond"

That shows the volunteers that came to Israel to fly in its defense.
To start with they had makeshift ME 109's, that were litteraly put together with spare parts. Then later Spitfires, being up against Egyptian Spitfires. Which shows it was then a contest of the pilots being matched by the same aircraft. If you ever get a chance, you should watch it Fred. I think its only one of the few occasions, Spitfires were matched against each other.

The Mossy was a fine aircraft and its crews loved it. Oddly, I never saw one until a couple of months ago and that was in the RAF Museum in Hendon. It really was a beautiful bird. I would love to see one in the air but I'm not sure whether there are any airworthy specimens around.

People tend to forget (or not realise) that while the Spit was glamorous and iconic, the real workhorse was the tough-as-old-boots Hurricane.. it had an awesome reputation for being able to get back home even after monumental battle damage.

The Spit needed relatively few shot-up bits for the pilot to lose control and be forced either to bale out or hit the ground.

I never knew that they went into service in the Middle East, but I suppose that we were so broke after the war that even Israeli skekels and Egyptian pounds were welcome!

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Thor wrote:

To me it was the best fighter plane of WW2 and I base this on its operational service and combat record
Even many of the Germans dreaded more coming up against the Spitfire. Even the yanks fought it was better. It even more has a greater attachment for me, in its defense of Malta. When the fighter pilots in Hurricans as well, were vastly out numbered. Yet they never shied away from taking to the air against the odds. I think George Burling (may have spelt his name wrong, unsure), was the top ace on the island

I also have a foundness for the de Havilland Mosquito

I watched a few years back a documentry called "Above and Beyond"

That shows the volunteers that came to Israel to fly in its defense.
To start with they had makeshift ME 109's, that were litteraly put together with spare parts. Then later Spitfires, being up against Egyptian Spitfires. Which shows it was then a contest of the pilots being matched by the same aircraft. If you ever get a chance, you should watch it Fred. I think its only one of the few occasions, Spitfires were matched against each other.

The Mossy was a fine aircraft and its crews loved it. Oddly, I never saw one until a couple of months ago and that was in the RAF Museum in Hendon. It really was a beautiful bird. I would love to see one in the air but I'm not sure whether there are any airworthy specimens around.

People tend to forget (or not realise) that while the Spit was glamorous and iconic, the real workhorse was the tough-as-old-boots Hurricane.. it had an awesome reputation for being able to get back home even after monumental battle damage.

The Spit needed relatively few shot-up bits for the pilot to lose control and be forced either to  bale out or hit the ground.

I never knew that they went into service in the Middle East, but I suppose that we were so broke after the war that even Israeli skekels and Egyptian pounds were welcome!

The israeli's never got the Spitfires off the British. They got them off the Czechs. Like I said in my other post. Sadly it was israelis up against the RAF, with mistaken identity. I was unaware of that. Before that it was like I say makeshift ME 109's, from a former factory again from the Czechs. The only country that allowed arms to israel at the time

The Hurricane was definately the workhorse and for a time, its all the RAF had on malta to fight against the Regia Aeronautica and Luftwaffe. For quite sometime. many had to be launched from aircaft carriers with extra fuel tanks to reach Malta

Again to me the, the Mosquito, was an engineering masterpiece.

Did you ever get to fly the Gloster Meteor Fred?

Still to me, my fav British fighter. Has to be the Harrier, that was a game changer that fighter.

The Harrier, Who sold 'em to the Yanks ?

nicko wrote:The Harrier,   Who sold 'em to the Yanks ?    

They have always been a part of the US Marine Corps. It's made by McDonnell Douglas, known as the AV-8A and B, or Harrier I and II. The aircraft was designed in the late 1970s as an Anglo-American development of the British Hawker Siddeley Harrier, the first operational V/STOL aircraft.

A brilliant British design, yes?

nicko wrote:A brilliant British design, yes?

I believe it was a joint design between the two. VSTOL has always been a dream. Think of the mobility it gives troop support, which is why a light infantry like the Marines would be anxious to have it. The US Marines already had the A-4 Skyhawk, but were looking for something that had more payload and mobility.

I remember when I was in graduate school at Rutgers University, the Eagleton Institute was involved in the development of the VSTOL aircraft...so both nations were working on it. Hawker Siddeley and McDonnell Douglas began joint development of a more capable version of the Harrier in 1973. Early efforts concentrated on an improved Pegasus engine, designated the Pegasus 15, which was being tested by Bristol Siddeley.

The British government pulled out of the project in March 1975 owing to decreased defense funding, rising costs, and the RAF's insufficient 60-aircraft requirement.

Original Quill wrote:

nicko wrote:A brilliant British design, yes?

I believe it was a joint design between the two.  VSTOL has always been a dream.  Think of the mobility it gives troop support, which is why a light infantry like the Marines would be anxious to have it.  The US Marines already had the A-4 Skyhawk, but were looking for something that had more payload and mobility.  

I remember when I was in graduate school at Rutgers University, the Eagleton Institute was involved in the development of the VSTOL aircraft...so both nations were working on it.  Hawker Siddeley and McDonnell Douglas began joint development of a more capable version of the Harrier in 1973. Early efforts concentrated on an improved Pegasus engine, designated the Pegasus 15, which was being tested by Bristol Siddeley.

The British government pulled out of the project in March 1975 owing to decreased defense funding, rising costs, and the RAF's insufficient 60-aircraft requirement.

Er, I'm afraid not Quill.

A number of countries, including the US, were known to be working on the concept from soon after the war, but the first truly successful design to emerge was by Sidney Camm and Ralph Cooper of Hawker, working with a Bristol Engines Company designer, Stan Hooker.

Their joint R&D, programme - originally tasked with finding  a successor to front line RAF fighter the Hawker Hunter (in service when I was in the RAF) led to the production of an experimental plane, the Hawker P (for prototype) 1127, which became the Kestrel (also never intended for active service) and thence the Harrier.

The Harrier's maiden flight was on December 28th 1967, 18 months or so after the P1127 first flew, and it it entered RAF squadron service a couple of years later.

So far as I know the USA did not become involved  until 1970 at least when McDonnell Douglas entered into a co-operation agreement with Hawker in further development work with a  view to the US purchasing the aircraft for service with the American military.

That export agreement  didn't happen until the mid 70s, by which time the Harrier and its maritime version the Sea Harrier were both well into their active service status in the UK.

But the only companies that co-operated in the initial and early design and development work were the two long established firms Hawker Siddeley and Bristol Engines.

I new I was right !

The British may have been the first to fly, but I took nicko's claim to be that the British "designed" the concept.

The Vertical Short Take-off and Landing (VSTOL) concept was around at the turn of the century, and probably in the back of the Wright Bros.' minds.  After all, the sport of ballooning had the concept down before the internal combustion engine gave birth to forward thrust and fixed wing flight.

The British were the first to tinker with the VSTOL idea, just as the Japanese were the first to tinker with the Wankel engine.  But it wasn't a British design.  Even as you provide precise dates, note there is only three years between 1967 and 1970.  I tend to view it as a joint effort.

nicko wrote:I new I was right !

Also, true to form, our government almost buggered the programme up and handed everything, including the kudos, to the Americans.

It wasn't as a result of funding cuts, as Quill thinks, but because some "expert" in the Air Ministry reached the conclusion that the future of air warfare rested wholly on missiles.

Remember the farcical Blue Streak and Blue Steel projects? Talk about the MoD being incapable of running a whelk stall on Southend Pier.

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

nicko wrote:I new I was right !

Also, true to form, our government almost buggered the programme up and handed everything, including the kudos, to the Americans.

It wasn't as a result of funding cuts, as Quill thinks, but because some "expert" in the Air Ministry reached the conclusion that the future of air warfare rested wholly on missiles.

Remember the farcical Blue Streak and Blue Steel projects? Talk about the MoD being incapable of running a whelk stall on Southend Pier.

As noted in Wiki:

Wiki wrote:With development costs estimated to be around £180–200 million (1974 British pounds), [both the British government and] the United States was unwilling to fund development by itself, and ended the project later that year.

Original Quill wrote:The British may have been the first to fly, but I took nicko's claim to be that the British "designed" the concept.

The VSTOL concept was around at the turn of the century, and probably in the back of the Wright Bros.' minds.  After all, the sport of ballooning had the concept down before the internal combustion engine gave birth to forward thrust and fixed wing flight.

The British were the first to tinker with the VSTOL idea, just as the Japanese were the first to tinker with the Wankel engine.  But it wasn't a British design.  Even as you provide precise dates, note there is only three years between 1967 and 1970.  I tend to view it as a joint effort.

Yes, but those three years were crucial because they represent the period when Camm, Cooper and Hooker pooled their airframe, wing, engine and aerodynamics skills to make what was, as you say, a long standing dream actually work.

I think I read once that German scientists and engineers were making huge strides, but they were probably overstretched by tandem development of the "flying wing" concept, not to mention jet propulsion (an invention of Brit Sir Frank Whittle) and Hitler's obsession with rocketry and pulse-jet powered cruise missiles (aka V1).

Luckily (for us, at least) they lost the war.

The Americans were no slouches, but I have to say that I don't know of any co-operative programme during the development of the forerunners of the Harrier, the Hawker P1127 and the Kestrel.

Original Quill wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Also, true to form, our government almost buggered the programme up and handed everything, including the kudos, to the Americans.

It wasn't as a result of funding cuts, as Quill thinks, but because some "expert" in the Air Ministry reached the conclusion that the future of air warfare rested wholly on missiles.

Remember the farcical Blue Streak and Blue Steel projects? Talk about the MoD being incapable of running a whelk stall on Southend Pier.

As noted in Wiki:

Wiki wrote:With development costs estimated to be around £180–200 million (1974 British pounds), [both the British government and] the United States was unwilling to fund development by itself, and ended the project later that year.

Yes, I know that. Blue Streak was cancelled at the same time because of UK defence cuts.

I was talking about the threat to the early Hawker VTOL/STOL research and development programmes...senior folk in the Air Ministry were convinced that the age of the piloted military aircraft were numbered and that the entire future lay in missiles.

Judging by what happened next it was a damn good job that someone banged heads together...believed at the time to be my local MP Stephen Hastings who, as I recall, went on to write a book about the missile scandal. I may even have a copy somewhere, but heaven only knows where as I have so many books.

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Thor wrote:

To me it was the best fighter plane of WW2 and I base this on its operational service and combat record
Even many of the Germans dreaded more coming up against the Spitfire. Even the yanks fought it was better. It even more has a greater attachment for me, in its defense of Malta. When the fighter pilots in Hurricans as well, were vastly out numbered. Yet they never shied away from taking to the air against the odds. I think George Burling (may have spelt his name wrong, unsure), was the top ace on the island

I also have a foundness for the de Havilland Mosquito

I watched a few years back a documentry called "Above and Beyond"

That shows the volunteers that came to Israel to fly in its defense.
To start with they had makeshift ME 109's, that were litteraly put together with spare parts. Then later Spitfires, being up against Egyptian Spitfires. Which shows it was then a contest of the pilots being matched by the same aircraft. If you ever get a chance, you should watch it Fred. I think its only one of the few occasions, Spitfires were matched against each other.

The Mossy was a fine aircraft and its crews loved it. Oddly, I never saw one until a couple of months ago and that was in the RAF Museum in Hendon. It really was a beautiful bird. I would love to see one in the air but I'm not sure whether there are any airworthy specimens around.

People tend to forget (or not realise) that while the Spit was glamorous and iconic, the real workhorse was the tough-as-old-boots Hurricane.. it had an awesome reputation for being able to get back home even after monumental battle damage.

The Spit needed relatively few shot-up bits for the pilot to lose control and be forced either to  bale out or hit the ground.

I never knew that they went into service in the Middle East, but I suppose that we were so broke after the war that even Israeli skekels and Egyptian pounds were welcome!

I have a pic of a mossie I took at fairford back in the 90's I'll see if I can find it.

Original Quill wrote:

nicko wrote:The Harrier,   Who sold 'em to the Yanks ?    

They have always been a part of the US Marine Corps.  It's made by McDonnell Douglas, known as the AV-8A and B, or Harrier I and II.  The aircraft was designed in the late 1970s as an Anglo-American development of the British Hawker Siddeley Harrier, the first operational V/STOL aircraft.

the harrier started in the early to mid 60's as the P1127

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

nicko wrote:I new I was right !

Also, true to form, our government almost buggered the programme up and handed everything, including the kudos, to the Americans.

It wasn't as a result of funding cuts, as Quill thinks, but because some "expert" in the Air Ministry reached the conclusion that the future of air warfare rested wholly on missiles.

Remember the farcical Blue Streak and Blue Steel projects? Talk about the MoD being incapable of running a whelk stall on Southend Pier.

it wasn't only the MOD that thought missiles were the way to go. The phantom did not have a gun because they thought dog fights were over.

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Also, true to form, our government almost buggered the programme up and handed everything, including the kudos, to the Americans.

It wasn't as a result of funding cuts, as Quill thinks, but because some "expert" in the Air Ministry reached the conclusion that the future of air warfare rested wholly on missiles.

Remember the farcical Blue Streak and Blue Steel projects? Talk about the MoD being incapable of running a whelk stall on Southend Pier.

it wasn't only the MOD that thought missiles were the way to go. The phantom did not have a gun because they thought dog fights were over.

Worked very well for the israeli's in dogfights and helped them gain air superiority over its Arab enemies mate

Not sure how you can be critical of such a succesful interceptor and fighter bomber

Phantoms brought the war home to the Syrian capital, striking Damascus and other strategic targets. Israel fighters clawed their way toward air superiority, bombing Syrian and Egyptian airfields which, unlike in '67, were now hardened against attack. Most enemy aircraft survived these attacks but IAF fighters still destroyed more than 450 enemy planes, mostly in dogfights. In fact, the IAF's air combat (won-loss) record for 1973 was twice as good as it had been during the 1967 Six Day War. As a result, the enemy had to concentrate his sorties in defense of his own backyard. Of the few enemy planes which attacked inside Israel, not one succeeded in striking and returning!

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israel-air-force-in-the-yom-kippur-war

The Devil, You Know wrote:

Fred Moletrousers wrote:

Also, true to form, our government almost buggered the programme up and handed everything, including the kudos, to the Americans.

It wasn't as a result of funding cuts, as Quill thinks, but because some "expert" in the Air Ministry reached the conclusion that the future of air warfare rested wholly on missiles.

Remember the farcical Blue Streak and Blue Steel projects? Talk about the MoD being incapable of running a whelk stall on Southend Pier.

it wasn't only the MOD that thought missiles were the way to go. The phantom did not have a gun because they thought dog fights were over.

Yes, I remember that.  The McDonnell Douglas F-4 Phantom II, like other interceptors of its time, was designed without an internal cannon.  Dog fighting was considered a lost art. However, later models incorporated an M61 Vulcan rotary cannon.

The Phantom was fast--it set 15 world records for in-flight performance, including an absolute speed record, and an absolute altitude record--but it was as useless as tits on a bull in Vietnam until it was rigged with canon.

It was retired because it was a massive fuel-guzzler. In a time of fossil fuel austerity (1970's), it was a real no-no.